Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love

Subject: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: stallion
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:31 AM

Ok the Seeds of Love is in the song book but Ron half remembers a version which is a thinly disguised jacobite song with a last verse that has the jist if not the words "give them time it will rise again"
Anyone got any ideas?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: stallion
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:36 AM

found it on a 2000 thread, yipee!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:43 AM

Dunno. Tears For Fears aren't very Scottish, are they?
Braw Sailing On The Sea" (Ord's Both Songs), possibly?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:58 AM

It is in my concertina song accompaniment tutor,available from my website.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 06:02 AM

This thread gives a lot of background, though not of the Jacobite variety.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: stallion
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 11:17 AM

The version Ron sings is different enough to suggest that it may have the same root as the other versions. requires more digging.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: stallion
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 11:23 AM

Is different but near enough !

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:38 PM

'The Seeds of Love' was written, so far as can be told, in the early 19th century, so any 'Jacobite' version is likely to be a modern adaptation.

Who is Ron? In what way do the words he knows differ from the usual ones?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: stallion
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:57 AM

I heard Ron's version ( Ron Akehurst) a couple of weeks ago. The Melody is the one in the film (FFTMC) and the words are very similiar to the ones on Mudcat which makes me think that some "folk" process has taken place. However we did discuss the origins of the song and he seemed convinced that it had been a deliberately ambiguous Jacobite song that had been turned into purely a love song by the "folk" process. My gut feeling is that there has probably been more scholarly work done on this and Ron's recollections may not be accurate. I think we will work on the ambiguity of the song as Ron sings it authentic or not, it adds a little intrigue

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: stallion
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 05:12 AM

According to Contemplator (Lesley Nelson-Burns) the song was written By Mrs. Fleetwood Habergam in 1689, James the II was deposed in 1688 and so began the Jacobite rebellions, indeed the story may have some credance.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: stallion
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 12:18 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 06:32 PM

Lesley has accepted uncritically, and précied, comments made by William Chappell back in 1859. Chappell confused two distinct songs, as did many others in the early days of folk song scholarship. In fact, it is 'The Sprig of Thyme' that is sometimes attributed to Mrs Fleetwood Habergham, not 'The Seeds of Love'. She is supposed to have written it as a sort of lament for her husband's disgraceful behaviour.

The songs are similar, and the latter was probably based on the former, often sharing lines or whole verses with it (though the particular line you mention seems to belong only to 'Seeds') but it doesn't appear prior to the broadside printing by Pitts of London in the early 19th century. 'Sprig' is considerably older; the original appears not to have survived, but there is an 'answer' to it on a broadside of 1696.

As it happens, there is a useful summary of the history of 'The Sprig of Thyme' in the revised edition of Frank Purslow's book Marrow Bones, which will be available from EFDSS in a few days' time. There appears to be no evidence that either song ever had any Jacobite connection, nor has that ever been suggested by anyone so far as I know.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 06:44 PM

Link worth looking at.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: stallion
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:03 PM

Well, after the Hon Peace link it's as clear as mud. OK, then answer this one, if aural tradition is akin to here say, and, if only credence can be given to the written word, indeed the only valid version of anything is that which is written, then is that not mocking traditional music? The problem that I have with scholarship of folk music is that it pretends to be THE authority, however well meaning it is it isn't an exact science. At the end of the day it is interesting to know the root of a song, it's genesis, but it ain't the be all and end all. In so far as the song (as Ron sings it) it probably owes more to "sprig of thyme", Although I wonder if any one ever considered that there were a significant number of Jacobite's in the English community and I am a great believer in "No smoke without fire". However I could ramble on about how powerful the aural tradition is, having first hand experience of it, but since it is more about my family history rather than folk music I do not intend to bore you with it. Ok, before this turns into a war, I like singing, I like singing traditional songs with my mates, I am interested in the origins of songs but i am not obsessed by it although I will admit to owning a berghaus ( have I spelt that right? - yup I just had a look)it keeps the rain out when I am on the fells and when I am riding my bike (doesn't have mudguards) but I only wear it when it rains, sometimes I don't bother, I like getting really soaked and getting in the bath with a glass of wine and chilling (Red Wine)oops wandering off thread!
cheers
pete

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:27 PM

No smoke here in the first place so far as I can see. The metaphors in 'Sprig of Thyme' appear to be sexual, not political. I'm not quite sure what the rest of your post means, unless you're saying that your 'gut feeling', for which you seem to have no evidence, is more important than the (provisional) conclusions arrived at by people who have actually looked into the matter.

It does seem that people who have a problem with scholarship often want to believe quite odd things, and resent the fact that the evidence doesn't support them. Usually the problem lies with the theory. Still, I'm sure that you aren't one of those people. Many of us have experience of aural tradition, of course; though I'm not sure what it has to do with this discussion.

Oddly enough (I had quite forgotten about it), most of the information at folkinfo (link above) was provided by me; and it shows that, 5 years ago, I too accepted Chappell's comments pretty much as they stood; having not looked into either song in any depth at that point. We move on as we learn more, though; and my comments here should be taken as superceding my earlier ones at folkinfo.

What confirmed it for me was information from Steve Gardham (my co-editor on the Marrow Bones revision) on the early broadside antecedents of the songs. He is more inclined to accept the attribution to Mrs Fleetwood Habergham than I am; the dates fit, but I'm wary of anecdotal evidence.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: Abby Sale
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:05 AM

On the completely other hand, anecdotal evidence and/or oral explanatry material that sometimes accompanies older and more obscure songs may be of great value. It may (on rare occasion) prove to be actually more accurate than accepted history. Otherwise it should be considered part of the folklore of the song - its setting, factual or not.

It can be interesting and insight-laden as well - regarding what the singers think the song is about - far from its original singers. Ie, revealing about the singers as much as the song.

Thing is, I couldn't help being just a tad uncomfortable with that grass that now needs much time to rise again, being "trodden underfoot" in the first place.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: stallion
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 05:55 AM

Ok, I do have problems with the dryness of some academics, the need to be always right with some. I think Abbey adds a little sway to the Aural/anecdotal/here say evidence. I find it astonishing that any study on folklore, on the oral traditions, dismisses or at best does not consider with any real conviction anything that is not printed. As to where I lie in all this, In the first place I wanted the lyrics to a song that I was told may have Jacobite connections, I really don't know. To put my historians head on, I find it unusual for any serious study of , say, the song in this thread not to include all the evidence, given the subject is the forensic/ archaeological study of something passed on orally for a few hundred years. To say one doesn't agree and present one's arguments is acceptable but to say that one is right and then ram it down someones throat is not. I don't have the time to read all the secondary material available ( if one follows the logic that in an oral tradition all sources are secondary sources, unless that is - Joe Bloggs, the song writer is still alive!) What I can say is that on the evidence presented so far it may or may not be a Jacobite song.
Essay for tomorrow: "What might have been the fate of any one admitting to being a Jacobite in England in 1689 - 1745" discuss

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: stallion
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 05:58 AM

ok, I admit it, I am winding you all up, succeeded?, lighten up for gods sake, it is interesting but .........................

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:54 PM

Very few Jacobites had any serious problems in England 1689-1745. The odd few (eg Lord Derwentwater I think) got the full hung drawn and quartered treatment, but that was for actually organising and taking part in armed rebellion.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I Sowed the Seeds of Love
From: stallion
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 04:35 PM

A* Greg, I think if any one was encouraging rebellion they would have , be it in pamphlet or song.