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Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare

Related threads:
Lyr Req: Hunting the Hare (from Kate Rusby) (40)
Lyr Req: Hunting the Hare (a cappella) (3) (closed)


RTim 08 Jun 07 - 09:10 AM
Peace 08 Jun 07 - 09:51 AM
Mrrzy 08 Jun 07 - 09:52 AM
Leadfingers 08 Jun 07 - 10:18 AM
Geoff the Duck 08 Jun 07 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,Rumncoke 08 Jun 07 - 11:56 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 08 Jun 07 - 01:21 PM
Ythanside 08 Jun 07 - 01:28 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 08 Jun 07 - 01:58 PM
Ruth Archer 08 Jun 07 - 02:34 PM
greg stephens 08 Jun 07 - 05:37 PM
Ythanside 08 Jun 07 - 07:11 PM
Zany Mouse 08 Jun 07 - 07:32 PM
Liz the Squeak 09 Jun 07 - 02:33 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 09 Jun 07 - 04:37 AM
Ruth Archer 09 Jun 07 - 07:29 AM
Joybell 09 Jun 07 - 08:28 PM
Liz the Squeak 10 Jun 07 - 03:47 AM
Fergie 10 Jun 07 - 10:37 AM
Joybell 10 Jun 07 - 06:55 PM
Mick Tems 11 Jun 07 - 06:44 AM
Susan of DT 11 Jun 07 - 07:10 AM
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Subject: Origins: Help with song Fragment
From: RTim
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:10 AM

I have a song fragment that I am trying to indentify. It has a roud number of 1181, but I can find no full text in any of my large book collection or online.
Can anyone help? Here is the text I have.

Hunting of the Hare.
Now poor puss is killed we'll retire from the field
Now poor puss is killed we'll retire from the field
With our horses and our hounds
We will pull their courage down
And tantero hurrah and tantero hurrah
Tantero
My boys we will follow.

Singers title "What joy can compare"

Thanks - Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Origins: Help with song Fragment
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:51 AM

Ballad LXIX

Somersetshire Hunting Song


HIS following song, which is very popular with the peasantry of Somersetshire, is given as a curious specimen of the dialect still spoken in some parts of that county. Though the song is a genuine peasant's ditty, it is heard in other circles, and frequently roared out at hunting dinners. It is here reprinted from a copy communicated by Mr. Sandys.

THERE'S no pleasures can compare
Wi' the hunting o' the hare,
In the morning, in the morning,
In fine and pleasant weather.



CHO. With our hosses and our hounds,
We will scamps it o'er the grounds,
And sing traro, huzza!
And sing traro, huzza!
And sing traro, brave boys, we will foller.



And when poor puss arise,
Then away from us she flies;
And we'll gives her, boys, we'll gives her,
One thundering and loud holler!
CHO. With our hosses, &c.



And when poor puss is killed,
We'll retires from the field;
And we'll count boys, and we'll count
On the same good ren to-morrer.
CHO. With our bosses and our hounds, &c.


from here.



Sorry if that doesn't help at all.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Help with song Fragment
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:52 AM

Does puss mean bunny in British?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Help with song Fragment
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:18 AM

'Puss' is usually used for a hunted hare !


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Subject: RE: Origins: Help with song Fragment
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:23 AM

General understanding of the word PUSS is in reference to a domestic cat. Ding dong bell, Pussy's in the well", Puss in Boots, etc.
I have not come across the usage in this song, but bearing in mind that the babies of rabbits are called kittens, it isn't a far stretch of the imagination referring to a hare as "puss".
By the way, a hare is very definitely NOT a bunny (rabbit).
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Help with song Fragment
From: GUEST,Rumncoke
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 11:56 AM

I think Bunny means hare in the US - even though he is often called a WAHbet, Bugg's Bunny is a hare, and the Easter Bunny is a hare too - with those ears they can't be anything else.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Help with song Fragment
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:21 PM

Here's one of the versions that Sharp collected:
^^
HUNTING THE HARE

There's nothing can compare
To the hunting of a hare
In the morning, in the morning
When it's fine and pleasant weather
With our horses and our hounds
We will chase her o'er the downs

And sing dero and sing dero
Sing dero, sing dero
Brave boys we will follow.

When poor Puss arise
And away from us she flies,
Then we'll give her, boys, we'll give her
A loud and thundering hulloa,
With our horses and our hounds
We will pull her courage down.

When poor Puss is killed
We'll return from the field,
We will drink, boys, we will drink
And drive away all sorrow,
For we've nothing else to fear
But to drive away all care
And to banish the thoughts of tomorrow.

Source: Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs ed Karpeles. Collected from Mrs.Lock at Mulchelney Ham, Somerset, 1905.


I'll try and put the tune up later.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Help with song Fragment
From: Ythanside
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:28 PM

According to Collins English Dictionary one usage of the word puss is an informal name for a hare (related to Middle Low German, Dutch and Lithuanian, apparently). I do remember hares being referred to as puss, or pussy, by some rural Scots around fifty years ago.
Rabbits were coneys, from the Gaelic name for them 'coineen' (with my apologies to the Gaeltacht for the phonetic spelling).



BTW, Mrrzy, the population of the UK is British while the language remains English. To add to the confusion the British Isles includes the completely separate country of Southern Ireland, whose people speak English and Irish.


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:58 PM

Ythanside - I don't think the name coney derived from coineen, rather they both derived from the same Latin source. For con(e)y OED gives earliest forms cunin, cuning adopted from Anglo-French coning, Old French conin derived from Latin cuniculus. As the Celtic group descended from Latin I presume they had the same Latin source.

Of puss, Partridge's Historical Slang gives the sense of hare as colloquial 19-20th centuries.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 02:34 PM

Americans know hares as jackrabbits. It's a very different animal from a rabbit; for a start, hares are native to Britain, whereas rabbits were introduced by the Romans if memory serves me correctly.

You'd know the difference instantly if you've ever eaten them. Rabbit is a mildly-flavoured white meat, whereas hare is dark meat, rich and gamey.


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:37 PM

Ythanside: and to be more confusing, Irish is also spoken in the UK (the N Irish bit).


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Ythanside
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:11 PM

Greg, you mean in Norn Irn? Didn't know that, had thought that Anglo plantation had wiped it out there, (as I'm sure was part of the intention). I stand corrected.

And Mick, I'm sure you're on the money there, so it's hats off to you also.   

Cheers, both. :-)


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:32 PM

I think Puss is used in other hunting songs. I used to sing one called Echo Bright/When Morning Stands on Tiptoe and that has a line: "When puss runs from covert 'twas early in the morn"

The Aspeys were an authority on hunting songs and I believe they recorded quite a few.

Rhiannon


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 02:33 AM

So the next logical step would be calling the 'bonny black hare' a 'pussy'... suddenly rude word Scrabble makes so much more sense!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:37 AM

And coney/cony/cunny.. hunted much as The Bonny Black Hare was.

Here's a song from D'Urfey's Pills To Purge Melancholy, which may be about a merchant, but might not be in rude Scabble! (I was looking for my book of bawdy songs from the music hall for an example but can't lay my hands on it at the moment; D'Urfey was conveniently on the computer). I hasten to add this has nothing to do with the original song!

Mick




BRING OUT YOUR CONEY-SKINS

Bring out your Coney-Skins Maids to me,
And hold them fair that I may see,
Grey, Black and Blue, for the smaller Skins
I'll give you Bracelets, Laces, Pins,
And for your whole Coney
Here's ready Money,
Come gentle Joan, do thou begin
With thy black Coney, thy black Coney-Skin,

And Mary and Joan will follow,
With their Silver-haired Skins and yellow ;
The White Coney-Skin I will not lay by,
For tho' it be faint, it is fair to the Eye :
The Grey it is worn, but yet for my Money,
Give me the bonny, bonny black Coney ;
Come away fair Maids, your Skins will decay,
Come and take Money Maids, put your Wares away :
Ha'ye any Coney-Skins, ha'ye any Coney-Skins,
Ha'ye any Coney-Skins here to sell ?


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 07:29 AM

I don't know if the Coney Skin song was posted specifically because of the double entendre/euphemism strand which is emerging from this thread (or is it me?), but I had an interesting conversation about this recently. Cunny being a variation on coney, and Puss or pussy being another word for hare, it's interesting that both cunny and pussy have been slang words for ladyparts.

I wonder if it's anything to do with the reputations of rabbits for fertility?

Sorry - back to polite subjects...


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Joybell
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:28 PM

Off the track but since Liz has mentioned "The Bonny Black Hare" -- There's a funny progression of one line from this song -- along with it's tune into a modern -- (well around 1940s) version of the cowboy variant of "The Unfortunate Rake". It gives the dying cowboy "bonny black hair". Got it filed away somewhere -- anyway that's the most interesting thing about it.
Cheers, Joy


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:47 AM

He's obviously put his merkin on the wrong end.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Fergie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 10:37 AM

The rabbit was not native to Ireland. It was introduced here by the Normans, so the Irish word for a rabbit; coinín (pronounced kuneen) is derived from the Anglo/Norman word which I believe was coney. The word coney went out of use in most the English speaking world because it had became a slang term for the female genital area, the word rabbit was almost universally adopted in place of coney. There is an island in county Down that became overrun with rabbits during the medieval period and it gained the name Coney Island. Later this name was transferred to an island near New York when some Irish Presbyterians transplanted themselves there.

The old word puss which was used for a hare suffered a similar fate but somehow managed to get transferred to the domestic cat or pussycat (maybe they were used at one time to hunt hares? In Ireland cats often hunt and take small rabbits and leverets).

Fergus


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Joybell
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 06:55 PM

We live in a farming community and I've known of several cats that were rabbit-hunters. I watched one catch and kill a rabbit twice her size.
What an interesting thread this has become.
Cheers, Joy


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Mick Tems
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:44 AM

In Welsh, a rabbit is "cwningen", derived from the latin root-word "cuniculus".


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Subject: RE: Help with song Fragment-Hunting of the Hare
From: Susan of DT
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:10 AM

Two other songs (related to each other)in the Digital Tradition calling a hare "puss" are: Granemore Hare and The Hills of Greenmore.


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