Walter Pardon - which song first?

Subject: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Nick
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:32 PM

Which Walter Pardon song should I sing first and where would I find the words and music?

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:36 PM

ummmm....on a Walter Pardon CD. You can get one from CAMSCO

Start at the beginning...

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:38 PM

"Put a Bit of Powder On It" is a good start.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:42 PM

Start with the one that attracts you the most. You know your style and preferences better that any of us - how can we choose better than you? What works for me probably won't work for you, and visa versee (or whatever).

Andrew

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:46 PM

Put a Bit of Powder on it, Father

A World Without Horses

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Nick
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 08:04 PM

The only thing I have managed to find so far is a thing on a Peter Bellamy (?) site which has an old boy singing a song as someone talks over it about how wonderful it is.

Is this representative of what he does?

Is there somewhere I could find out what he sounds like and the quality of his work without spending £x on a cd that I might not like.

The song on the site I found where it plays in the background is ok but sounds much like an old boy singing (in tune and reasonably well).

This is genuinely not a wind up in case people think I am having a go at trad singers - I would like to understand the passion.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 03:34 AM

Perhaps you might like to try Walter's own favourites:
"J C - If you had the choice Walter… if somebody said to you one night they were going to ask you to sing say half-a-dozen or a dozen songs even, of all your songs, what would be the choice, can you think offhand what you would choose to sing?
W P - The Pretty Ploughboy would be one, that's one; Rambling Blade would be another one, The Rambling Blade would be two, Van Diemen's Land three, Let The Wind Blow High or Low, that'd be four, Broomfield Hill, that's five, Trees They Do Grow High, six, that'd be six".
The songs of 'Powder' were, according to him, "not folk songs" and not worth bothering about.
Walter was a superb singer, far better than most of the revival singers I have heard; with a repertoire of well over 100 traditional songs.
Go on - take a chance - 'Horses' is probably the best CD readily available
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 03:55 AM

Hi Nick,

Would you like me to stir your tea for you? And those pillows look a bit crumpled - why don't I fluff them up a bit?

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 05:35 AM

I believe you are taking the wrong approach ,go and listen to other source singers like HarryCox, Samlarner,Fred Jordan,Phil Tanner,Jeannie Robertson,then listen to revival singers like Ron Taylor,Kevin Mitchell,Rosie Stewart,Peta Webb.then if you are particuarly struck by a song learn it for that reason.,and that reason alone
Jim Carroll called me a philistine,because I said that listening to revival singers was equally important as listening to source singers.Jim that comment was insulting.
Nick to be able to judge something for yourself is more important than slavishly following other peoples opinions.Music is about what turns you on,you may prefer to listen to Missippi John Hurt[source blues singer]nothing wrong with that if you do,but youwont know until you have listened to alot of source singers, revival singers ,or even source singers from a different tradition.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Dreadnought
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 05:44 AM

Shimrod its people like you who have turned internet forums from what should a wonderful place for people to come together and share their experience and views into a hateful town council meetings for social inadequates and pillocks. You are entitled to your opinion but you have no idea about Nicks circumstances or approach to the world. For all we know your witless sarcasm might have been very hurtful to him. If you have nothing positive to contribute keep you trap shut.

Nick you can hear samples of Walter on the Amazon entry for World Without Horses. He's wonderful.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 07:21 AM

I have to confess to being intrigued by the question. Can I ask why you specifically wish to sing Walter Pardon songs as you don't seem to be familiar with his singing?

"Old Boys singing" is generally pretty representative of the canon of source singers - not forgetting the Old Girls singing, of course. It's only, as Dick suggests, if you listen to a few of them for a little while that you get beyond age and quality of recording and begin to pick out their individual styles, and decide who you like best. Personally, I really like Sam Larner, Harry Cox and Fred Jordan.

For this reason, maybe a compilation CD would be a good place to start: there's a Voice of the People one, and Hidden English (on Topic), and A Century of Song (produced by EFDSS). Though off the top of my head, I can't remember if Walter Pardon is actually on any of them.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Nick
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:50 AM

Ruth

The question should probably have been 'listen to' in retrospect rather than 'sing' (though as I do try and sing I usually listen to music with half a mind to include it if I like it) but in answer to your question it flowed from the "Collapse of Folk Clubs" thread.

I thought I ought to know something about something that means a lot to some people on this forum rather thn dismissing it because I didn't.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 11:15 AM

I remember Frank Harte saying (at least once!), roughly: "When you sing a song, the best you can hope for is that someone comes up afterwards and says: 'Jeez, that's a great song!'". If, on the other hand, their fist reaction is "Well sung!" or "Yeah, lovely - that's an old Joe Bloggs song, isn't it?" - then you need to keep practicing...

Wherever you get a song, it's all about getting inside it and finding a way that makes it work for you. Listening to the Walter Pardons, Joe Heaneys etc. of this world is part of that - but ONLY part.

Regards

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 11:18 AM

Make that first reaction!

Regards

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 12:02 PM

In my opinion Walter was a brilliant singer

A very difficult singer to learn songs from but a vast repertoire

he sings virtually all the usually found traditional style songs, very simply

To sing simply is not easy, or emulate what he does

The songs are largely very concise with words and by being so say so very much by their understatement and can be missed unless you know what you are looking at/hearing is being sung by a very intelligent man who has honed his songs by repetition and familiarity

They may have changed as his early influence was his uncle Billy ? Gee (from memory) and he may have sung harmony which could have had an effect up his tune initially

A terrific source singer!

Ray

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 01:03 PM

Based on your response, Mick, I'd reiterate my suggestion of one of those compilation CDs. You'll hear a range of singers, styles and material.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 03:14 PM

Martin Ryan (and Frank Harte) are quite right; any singer worth his or her salt makes a song their own, wherever they learned it from.
A young(ish)singer from, say Birmingham or London or Leeds would be crazy to try to sound like a seventy-odd year old East Anglian, but by the same token, he or she would be equally unwise to copy say, Peter Bellamy's vibrato (he once described it to us as his 'Larry the Lamb impersonations'), or Lois Killen's sinuses,or Carthy's gappy phrasing or intrusive accompaniment, yet at one stage of the revival you couldn't throw a stone without hitting one of these mimics (once referred to (rather amusingly I thought, as Carthy's Clones - but I'm old enough to remember The Everley Brothers).   
Walter Pardon was, as far as I'm concerned, important for a number of reasons.
His repertoire was was extremely extensive; his texts were very full and articulate and his tunes, while similar to the standard ones were subtlely different, which made them unique (Mike Yates also commented on this in his record notes).
But for me, the main reason for listening to Walter was for his approach to the songs, the way he identified with the subject matter, the way in which he made the songs come to life, for himself and for his audience.
This was particularly apparent in his phrasing of the songs; they worked like beautifully read pieces of prose or poetry, and the listener could become involved in the stories they told. He never felt the need to overstate; to put the nudge-nudge into his bawdy songs or to overdramatise his tragic pieces. All this was enhanced by the fact that, right to the point he gave up singing publicly, he never lost the musicality in his voice.
The Cap'n is right (to some extent - I would quibble with some of his examples); you can learn and take guidance from other singers, but in the end it comes down to your interpretation and your technique - nobody else's.
Cap'n,
I apologise if I have offended you by calling you a philistine because of your attitude to source singers. I confess I find your attitude to the older singers both confused and confusing, but its not the reason I believe you to be a philistine.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 03:21 PM

PS
Ray Padgett
You are right; his main influence was his Uncle, Billy Gee. He never sang harmony, but the fact that he kept the tunes in his head by playing them on the melodeon may have affected the way he remembered them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:03 PM

Dreadnought, methinks thou dost protest too much! If I'd actually heard of a singer, and wanted to know more about him/her, I'd take the initiative and seek out his/her records! It's hardly bloody 'rocket science', is it - even for a sensitive flower!!

And as for asking, "which one of Walter's songs should I sing first?" Well, words fail me! Just sing the ones you like and think you can sing - for God's sake! And whatever you do, don't produce a 'tape-recording' - sing the bloody thing in first and make it your own (whilst acknowledging that you learned it from Walter, of course).

'Never-suffer-fools-gladly' is my motto, Dreadnought. Presumably this attitude upsets you(?) Am I bovvered - do you really want to know ...?

What I like about the Internet is that you can say what you REALLY think ... and sometimes I think wicked, evil things ...

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:16 PM

Thanks Jim

I do have quite a collection of Walter's vinyl and also CDs to draw from and have learnt one or two which can take a long time to 'perfect'

As you say Walter played melodeon and I suspect with not a lot to do, like me continued to amused himself working back playing the tunes on melodeon (concertina me)

The point being that live music and song had gone from the pubs where he would have sang and entertained other 'Old Boys'

I met Walter briefly at Whitby FF I think around 1977 when he appeared in a Drill Hall concert with the Watersons!

Ray

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:30 PM

Ruth mentioned three compilations a little earlier. Walter features on them all; the EFDSS cd, due for reissue later this month, A Century of Song ('Bright Golden Store'), the Voice of the People sampler ('The Poacher's Fate'), and Hidden English ('Broomfield Hill').

These are excellent compilations, covering a wide range of traditional singers from Britain and Ireland; a very good introduction if you are interested in learning more. They can be bought via the links above (the EFDSS online shop doesn't have details yet, though); samples of the Topic cds can be heard at various places; the first that came up were:

Hidden English (CD Universe)

Voice of the People (CD Universe)

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:16 AM

Ron,
Walter's story of how he came to folk song is an interesting one.
He grew up in a family of singers who sang almost exclusively at home during harvest suppers and Christmas parties (his Uncle Billy sang occasionally at Agricultural Trades Union meetings, but this was very rare).
Although always interested in the songs, Walter only ever sang one song at these sessions, 'Dark Eyed Sailor', which he said 'nobody else wanted'.
By the time he came back from the war his uncle had died, so he decided to write down his family repertoire in exercise books. The earliest of these is dated 1949. He deliberately used the melodeon to memorise the tunes. His nephew, Roger Dixon, urged him to record himself, which he did, the tape finding its way to Bill Leader via Peter Bellamy. Most of his songs were intact, but those that weren't he filled out from printed texts given to him by friends in the revival. This 'filling in' was done extremely tastefully; that's why, I believe, they are so good. Probably 'Dark Arches' is the best example of these, which he had as 2 verses and a chorus.
We recently wrote an article on his approach to singing for a festschrift compiled in honour of Irish Collector Tom Munnelly which is now available on the OAC (Oidhreacht An Chláir) website.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:21 AM

Sorry, Ray, not Ron.
To add to Malcolm's list of albums, 'The People's Stage' cassette, 'Up To The Rigs', recorded at a live performance of Walter in Totnes is well worth a listen if you can get hold of it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Dreadnought
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 05:31 AM

Shimrod you make my point more eloquently that I ever could.

Its probably worth pointing out that the link to "Put a bit of Powder..." posted by Malcolm Douglas earlier on in the thread includes the substantial notes booklet included with the disk. Well worth a look.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 07:24 AM

Jim ,my attitude to source singers is perfectly clear,I listen to them with pleasure, some I prefer to others.I also listen to revival singers,again some I prefer to others.
the reason I listen to surce singers,is because they do something for me.[and that should be Nicks reason too]
as a musician, I can also appreciate the development of accompaniment by some revivalists,which sometimes can enhance the song,and help to develop the music.
its rather like eating yougurt and flavoured yogurt,its possible to enjoy them both,they are both different,yet are connected.
why am I a philistine.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 04:42 PM

Cap'n
While you continue to insist that older singers, less experienced in singing outside their own cultural or domestic circle, should be subject to the same level of criticism as a seasoned, younger revival singer (I haven't heard that you have had a change of mind so far), to me your attitude will continue to be iffy (to say the least).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 05:21 PM

To whomever - if the policy has changed regarding music posts, Joe needs to let everyone know.

Otherwise, non-argumentative anon guest posts in music threads are likely to be un-deleted.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 05:40 PM

Surely it should be possible to set up the forum so that a Guest post with a blank "from" field is directed to an "error" page which has a message requiring you to insert a name in the from field.

Doing this will save a lot of messages getting deleted and of messages like the one in red to Jim Carroll above

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 06:19 PM

No Jim,I am talking about source singers,Within this category there is a variation,some were natural performers Bob Roberts ,Sam Larner,FredJordan,Jimmy Mcbeath,Willie Scott, some were not.,Some were better singers than others,some had better voices than others,some were extrovert personalities, some were not.
revival singers are something different,but within their category we still make judgements,what I am saying is that I enjoy both,, They may be differnt but they are,still connected,revival singers such as Carthy, Killen,Bellamy have clearly evolved from listening to traditional singers.
what I do with both categories,is enjoy if they manage to interpret a song well,enjoy if they can sing in tune,and enjoy if they sing with feeling,of course if a source singer is very old when recorded,then I make allowances for their voice.,I would also make allowances if its clear that they dont sing regularly.
Iam not prepared to say that all source singers are wonderful,although I realise their importance in preserving the songs and passing them on to future generations.
You however give me the impression,that all source singers are great,and all revival singers are not worth listening to,which is pure Codswallop.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 06:30 PM

JimCarroll,
p,s.of course many singers form the early days of the revival are quite old now, 65 70,etc,and some of these dont sing as regularly as they used to,and naturally their voices ,will not be as good as they were twenty years ago,so again we make allowances,particuarly if they have made a great contribution in the past,so whats the difference,.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Wheatman
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 06:38 PM

I thought Walter was a wonderful singer, and I apprecisted being in his company. Spent a long time talking to him at the national. The first song I sang of his was One cold morning in December followed Old Browns Daughter both songs fitting my style of singing and both sounding as though they camed from County Durham (all my songs do though) I never had the confidence to sing some of his better ballads. Sing what fits your particular delivery and style. I am sure he apprecates any continuaton of his legacy

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:46 AM

Joe,
Sorry for not signing.
I have consistently tried to become a member of this forum
I have a password which, on request, was confirmed by e-mail, but is still not accepted.
Will try harder!
Cap'n
Will spend the day trying to work out your postings.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:20 AM

Thanks for all your input both Jim and the Captain adn Malcolm

I did know from sleeve notes some of the background re Peter Bellamy adn how Walter came to light

Interesting thought/point regarding "German Musicianer" ~ did Pete Bellamy get this from Walter as I have no recording of this similarly "Butter and Cheese and All"

Ray

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:14 AM

Ray,HarryCox was recordedin 1956,singing German Musicianer by PeterKennedy,this is the most likely source ,as I am very sure I heard PeterBellamy sing it,before Walter was discovered.
Peter kennedy also collected the greasy cook or butter and cheese and all[not sure which variant]in 1953.I reckon he[Peter B] got them from HarryCox.
PeterBellamy it also was, who brought peoples attention to Walter[I think before anyone else was aware of him as a singer]
Jim , you have to thank a revival singer,ForHaving discovered Walter.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:31 AM

Yes I have Peter Kennedy collection!

Peter recently died I believe

Ray

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:07 AM

Jim Carroll

If you remind me, I'll try to sort out your login problem during Willy Week!

Regards

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:32 PM

"Interesting thought/point regarding "German Musicianer" ~ did Pete Bellamy get this from Walter as I have no recording of this similarly "Butter and Cheese and All"
Ray,
Walter sang neither - Harry Cox sang both and Sam Larner sang 'Butter and Cheese', in my opinion, his best song.
Jim Carroll
PS Thanks Martin - I'll be the one wearing a carnation in my buttonhole with a rolled up copy of The Times under my arm.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:59 PM

In Miltown...? I'd better get there early - the locals will think you're the taxman come back to haunt them!

Regards

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:22 PM

he probably got German M from HarryCox,and Butter and cheese from Sam Larner.
Jim Carroll,I hope you understand this,hope its not confusing.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: Nick
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:30 PM

Thank you everyone.

I got exactly what I wanted out of the thread.

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 08:03 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 09:22 AM

A place to start.

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/pardon2.htm

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:32 AM

Yes Musical Traditions ~ Rod Stradling

Ray

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:40 AM

German Musicianer is from Peter Kennedy collection ~ Harry Cox source in 1956

Ray

Notes: compare with Charlie Wills, German clockwinder

Subject: RE: Walter Pardon - which song first?
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:58 AM

Cruising Round Yarmouth ~ can be found in the Singing Island and is attributed to Sam Larner

Ray