How to handle criticism?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Nick
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM

Having read a thread recently on mudcat where someone spent seven posts complaining about a spelling error (where the sense was understood by everyone) I think you'll find that there are people who give unwarranted and pointless criticism everywhere.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM

Nick: I take acception to your criticism!

Point well made.

Good morning all!
from the overcast Highlands.
Jim Lad

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:24 PM

Handling criticism:

Criticism is not fragile and you cannot stamp it out by using too much force on it, so don't be timid.

Grasp the criticism firmly behind the nech, being sure not to let it sink its teeth under your skin, as this has been proven, with some varieties, to be extremely toxic, and in some instances causing heart failulre. As long as you proceed with the correct precautions, all will be well.

With a firm grip, place the criticism squarely on a flat surface, such as the floor or a table top. While still keeping it firmly pinned with one hand, use the other hand to draw over it an impenetrable sheet of plastic wrap, such as is sold in food stores for left-overs. Roll the criticism in the plastic wrap bringing the end over the head and sealing the head into the package just as you let go of it. This requires a certain deftness.

Once wrapped, you can place the criticism in a sturdier container, if you wish, or you can simply throw the package at the head of whoever provided it.

Many criticisms which seem to be robust and venomous, actually turn out to be fragile little projections on closer inspection. In this case a simple "pooof!" with a gust of breath will serve to make it vanish, if it is done with one eye on the actual source of the projection.

Hope this helps,


A

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Nick
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:53 PM

Jim Lad

I expect your point

Overcast but never downcast :)

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:59 PM

Northerner, you seem very confident in your abilities both as a storyteller and a singer, so perhaps you could try another tack if this 'gentleman's' unsolicited criticism is disturbing you. Next time he says something after your spot, grab the people nearest and say 'Harry (or whoever) thinks I missed the mark tonight - did you like the story I told?'. If the answer is a resounding 'yes' then not only do you have the reassurance you're seeking, but it will also tell the gentleman in question that he holds a minority view that might be best kept to himself in future.

Of course, if you get a few 'er, um ..'s or polite pleasantries then it is possible that he is just voicing what other people are too nice to say out loud. But even that would be beneficial since I'm sure it might prompt a conversation that offered some more helpful ideas to work with.

My personal feelings are that in a folk club or festival concert setting stories that are of adult content (whether through sexual, political or occult content or by virtue of requiring a deal of imagination from the audience) are very enjoyable. The 'listen with mother' type of presentation which requires audience participation and the excessive drawing out of simple points can be a real turn off. But I'm sure you've already found out what your club likes.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Wayne
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:07 PM

Judging by your moniker,Northerner you're from oop Nawth (Nowt gets past a welshman!). If you live in the vicinity of Leeds, why not pop down to the Abbey Inn, Newlay (in the river valley between Bramley and Horsforth) on a Tuesday. We've had one or two people come in to our singaround and give us a story or monologue. Even though it's usually quite busy, the teller has always been given good order and a hearty round of applause.

If you are local, pop down. You'll be given a warm welcome!

Diolch

Wayne

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:40 AM

Thank you all. Wayne, if ever I'm near Leeds I'll pop into your club - thank you.

Last night I checked with the man who had been MCing that evening and he said he'd really enjoyed that particular story. It had been a story accompanied by paper tearing and I had made it audience participation - lots of people had had a go. Not a type of story that I do all the time but I think it's good to have a variety of styles.

I DID have quite a bit of criticism when I started as most people had not encountered a storyteller before, but I have gradually won over most of them. Beginner storytellers are not always easy to listen to, any more than beginner singers - beginner storytellers are often a bit slow and halting and not very fluent. However, I am past the beginner stage now. Repertoire is still a bit trial and error - you can't predict accurately what people will enjoy - but gradually you improve.

I don't think this person likes stories. I think that whatever I do he is going to find a fault with it. Even if he doesn't like a particular story there are plenty of positive things that he could approve of - I have excellent diction and tonal quality, for instance. Although I would like every person in an audience to enjoy my performances, I am happpy if the majority do. I don't enjoy all the performers that I hear at clubs, but if they have done their preparation work then I sit back and smile and clap politely. I'll listen to how this person phrases criticism more closely in future. If it is all negative with nothing positive then I will ask him to consider how he gives criticism. If all else fails I will have a quiet word with the club organisers. Unfortunately the club founder is absent at the moment recovering from heart surgery; he is very supportive of me and pleased to have a storyteller at the club.   I will sing at the next singaround probably but am starting to work on my next story.

Thank you all.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Unbiased listener
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:21 AM

Unfortunately the club founder is absent at the moment recovering from heart surgery

He is certainly NOT the club founder.

The persons who founded that club are no longer welcomed there and were not even invited to the 40th anniversary celebration.

Short memories some people!

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Unbiased listener
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:01 AM

Also, one night when you are not telling, maybe singing or sitting out, why not offer him some criticism of his singing - in a friendly, helpful manner of course. Something like 'why not rehearse your song so the words are fresh in your mind'?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:12 AM

Is it not possible just to avoid this character altogether?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: JeremyC
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM

I'm with a few of the others in this thread with respect to criticism. From my limited experience, it's not polite to volunteer anything that isn't both positive and true, and if asked, the worst you should generally say is "you sounded good tonight." Anything further should be first, invited, and second, presented in the most positive, constructive fashion possible.

Most criticism I've personally received has been on youtube, in which case I delete it (if offensive/personally insulting), ignore it (if useless or irrelevant), respond sarcastically to it (if it's extraordinarily stupid and/or presumptuous), or keep it in mind for next time (if it's useful).

Criticism I receive in person, I generally acknowledge or thank the offerer, then act on the information as I need to. If it's excessive and/or dumb, the "smile and nod" approach, followed by an immediate purge from memory, is best.

Just my opinion.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:05 PM

Repeated criticism of this sort is harrassment. Pure and simple.

There is no point in subtlety, cuteness or anything circumspect. Simply stand straight, look him square in the eyes( really at the bridge of his nose, but you probably know that already), and tell him calmly but firmly that you have heard enough, and that he is to stop what he is doing immediately.

Don't argue, don't raise your voice, just lay it on the line, and walk away. And don't ever talk to him again.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: cptsnapper
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:17 AM

Probably the most extreme criticism that I've ever received was in the shape of a letter written to Folk Roots in which the writer commented on the variety of music which can be found & that as far as the writer was concerned it was fine if people wanted to listen to Chinese folk music as long as he didn't have to listen to me! So I immediately contacted the magazine to announce my planned album of Chinese folk music!

Of course you can always ask the person who's making the comments to recite one of the pieces which they've commented on so that you can see what they mean thus ensuring that they either put up or shut up.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:49 AM

I envy those who feel they are above criticism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Young Buchan
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:09 AM

Northener, I think those correspondents are right who believe that your critic is less concerned with how you do what you do, and more with where you do it.
In the days before the revival, it was certainly the practice in social gatherings to take the attitude that what was going on was entertainment and there was no reason to confine entertainment to merely musical matters. Fred Jordan had a song in which at a similar entertainment a man says he can't sing but so as not to disappoint the company when it comes to his turn he is prepared to fight the best man in the room. I'm told that this is not entirely fanciful and happened occasionally in Suffolk. In comparison, wanting to tell a story seems quite mild.
In more modern times, of course, TV and other media have taken up the general entertainment needs of most people, and Folk Clubs were set up, in most cases, as a place in which to perform folksong/music rather than exactly reproduce the old general sessions.
This is not to say many clubs do not welcome, or failing that – accept, other 'turns'. I used to attend a club where occasionally, if we were short of singers, one of our non-singing members would do card tricks. Noone ever complained. But I think the crucial words here are 'occasionally' and 'when we were short of singers'. I doubt if we would have wanted it every week. And it was certainly not an invitation to the local Magic Circle to come and use us as an audience.
Likewise it occasionally happens at clubs I attend that someone who is usually a singer may choose on a particular occasion to tell a story or read a poem. Again, as an occasional variant, this goes down perfectly well. All Folk Clubs and all audiences are different. If I turn up at a Folk Club for the first time I am conservative. I sing a folksong. I don't perform The Green Eye of the Little Yellow God in BSL, or sing Agadoo to the tune of Mo Roisin Dhu, which are party tricks I have been known to perform in clubs that I attend more frequently. You need get to know your audience to be able to judge whether they will think a story is an entirely appropriate adjunct to a night celebrating the folk tradition, or a pain in the botty department.
Why should there be any hostility to a story teller?
The answer may be in why people go to the club. There are different types of folkie and in any club a different mindset may predominate.
Firstly there are those who go to sing (I'm sorely tempted to say 'to hear themselves sing'). They are only interested in how many times the MC can get round the room, because that determines how many times they will be allowed to sing. Deep in their hearts they really want all other singers to sing short songs, and all non-singers to pass. The last thing in the world they want is for someone to tell a long story.
Secondly there are those who go to learn by listening to others. Some may welcome the opportunity to broaden their horizons by being shown something entirely different. But many will think 'I'm a singer. There is nothing I can learn from someone who doesn't sing. How long before we get another singer on?'
Thirdly there are those who go to be entertained. They should be ripe for the picking – IF you are entertaining! Everyone has to learn. And everyone does badly when they learn. When a singer is learning and doing badly, the audience may hope he is suddenly struck down by lightning; but more realistically they know the torture will have a finite end which is approaching reasonably rapidly: unless they have decided to do a ballad in which case God help us all, and that is the reason beginners should beware of ballads. But with a storyteller – who knows when it is all going to end? I don't say that to be rude. I have heard some of the great Irish storytellers and part of the attraction is that they appear to ramble off forever only to suddenly and unexpectedly reconnect in the final line. But to get away with that you have to keep the audience enthralled all the way through. Few people who have been bored out of their skull for 15 minutes will then say at the end 'Oh, that was an interesting twist! I hope they do something like that again next week.'
Length of anything can be a killer. I mention ballads. I love the ballads, and would happily sing them all the time. But I know that is not what audiences want (unless you select your audience by announcing that it is a Ballad Session) and I select a variety of material accordingly.
[As a storyteller you probably know the story that Seamus Ennis used to tell of Henry Bohannon who when learning the pipes – rather badly – was approached by a Little Person who offered to help him learn to play, but with the condition that he could play only for his own satisfaction or that of others, but not both. He chose to play for his own satisfaction, and was delighted by how he played. But he continued to play in public and was always dismayed by how much he was criticised. One day the Little Person reappeared and offered him the chance, once and for all, to reverse his wish. He accepted, and became renowned as a great piper. But he was always himself dissatisfied by his performances. There are just so many lessons there for us all that I don't know where to start!]
I really think that if you are ever going to perform non-songs in a predominantly Song club, you need to build up the confidence of the audience that what you do will not be longer than your ability to sustain the interest. Even the best can make the mistake. I once saw the late Ernie Dyson (lovely man, did humourous dialect poems from Yorkshire) at a session where he did the opening verse of Macaulay's How Horatius Kept The Bridge. I looked forward to the amusing parody that it was bound to turn into. At the end of the second verse I was becoming a little impatient for him to get to the point. At the end of the third verse it suddenly struck my brain with an icepick that he was going to do all 70 verses. And 25 minutes later (exacerbated by the fact that he kept forgetting bits and going back to the previous couple of verses to 'get a run at it') that is what he had done.
I may have rambled on too much. I am a singer not a storyteller!

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:47 AM

"Tell a story, sing a sang, show's yer bum or oot ye gang".

Never seen anyone take option 3 in a folk club yet, thought.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:44 AM

Hello Unbiased Listener. I wasn't present at the club's founding so I don't know firsthand who started it and how. If I am wrong I apologise. However that may be, the fact remains that the principal organiser of that club is very happy to encourage my storytelling at that club, and likewise the principal organiser of the other club that I go to. I am careful not to tell a story every week, or even every singaround. Sometimes I sing a song or sit out the session and listen to other performers.

Hello meself. No, I can't avoid him altogether but I can sit somewhere else in the club.

Thank you JeremyC. I really do think the person concerned believes he is being helpful, but has a really poor way of delivery. I was taught at a residential workshop that the correct way to give criticism was always to start with a positive comment first. Developing a thicker skin would possibly help me.

Thank you M Ted. I will keep a note of how any further criticism is delivered. I am also keeping a watchful eye on his own performances.

Thank you Young Buchan. Yes, the type of folk club that we have now may well have a lot to do with what this man has been saying (and other critics, most of whom have now accepted me). I had a period when I lived in the north of Scotland and one of our regular performers was a storyteller as well as a fabulous ballad singer. He is now mentoring me (though informally). Hearing stories at a club therefore feels totally natural to me. I like the way in which the Traveller storytellers move freely between stories, song and music and aim to do the same myself eventually. I believe the man who is criticising me belongs to the culture where stories are something for children only. I am careful not to tell stories that are too long (I never go beyond 10 minutes or the length of two songs). As my skills develop it will also become easier for me to create material that is more entertaining.

I am going to more workshops up in Scotland in the autumn, and am investigating some more residential workshops that will allow me to develop in a nurturing envrionment. Thank you all for your comments and advice.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Skivee
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:56 AM

As a performer the most important critic of your work should be you.
There must be a balance between the inner voices that tell you,
"Look at me, I'm a performing genius", and,"Look at me, I'm a talentless dunce who should have stayed home."
You should have a good idea of what a professional level performance is and be able to measure yourself against that standard. You may fall short, but it will give you a good idea of what to aim towards.
The helpful criticism of your peer performers can be very useful, as you are all struggling towards the same goal.
Helpful critique from your audience can also be a good guide In all of these cases the standard should not be whether the comments are negative, but whether they are true.
An old teacher of mine once gave me great advice I didn't appreciate till years later. "Just because you worked long and hard on something doesn't necessarily mean that it's good." On the other hand, this advice came from a man who had lost 4 spitfires in the channel during the battle of Britain...none of them in combat.
What I learned from this is to take my teachers advice about writing, but not about how to pilot a fighter plane. Consider the source of criticism along with their strengths and weaknesses.                     
Northerner, I must say that I'm quite fond of Jack Campin's idea of performing a story about a critic of all things. I think it's simply brilliant.
Of course, this assumes that the fellow's criticism is offbase.
If this fellow's purpose is to really help you, then heed his words. If he's just getting off chatting to hear himself AND his comments are wrong, then blow him off.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: stallion
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:51 PM

It's a self esteem thing, I know a couple of people who think they are Gods gift to song writing, they have bags of confidence and self esteem, they are crap but seem totally impervious to any criticism, I have also witnessed a big name being sick in the toilet and muttering "I have to follow them", "them" were a local support act, this person, of course, was superb. So, place yourself in there somewhere between Rhino hide and tissue paper and go for it. Do it, do it.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:07 PM

If the two clubs that Northerner frequents are the ones I suspect, then they are two of the oldest and most respected clubs in this part of the world, so could I just make one small suggestion that may be helpful? It may be that you are underestimating the experience of your audience, and consequently not connecting with them quite as sucessfully as you would wish.

I did a quick count up of storytellers that I have encountered in the last few years (some exclusively tellers and some who incorporate some stories into their singing performances) at clubs, concerts and festivals. I got easily into the 'teens and there are several others that I can remember and not name. A few I enjoyed very much and a couple are good friends of mine. I have no reason to suspect I am the only member of these clubs who has experienced a variety of storytellers, nor would I dream of assuming it without proof. I wonder if knowing this might enable you to trust us to listen to a more complex tale in future?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:15 PM

Ah! Guest Aw: Not to try and spoil your fun here but if you read through this thread, I'm sure you'll agree that Northerner is most assuredly not seeking criticism.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to visit with some friends.
Kind Regards
Jim

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:50 PM

Sorry, Jim (and Northerner!) previous post was not meant to be critical. My only intention was to offer food for thought. If my guess as to 'Northerner's identity is correct then I am happy to confirm that her performances have most assuredly improved over last last year or so, and I have enjoyed the last couple of stories far more than the first few. But she did state earlier in the thread that 'most people had not encountered a storyteller before' and I feel that if this is not true, then she may be working harder than she needs to, (thinking she needs to explain the medium as well as tell the stories) and may also be inadvertently conveying the impression that storytelling is neither understood nor acceptable, which would be a shame.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:21 PM

So, you're not the one?
Sorry AW.
Cheers
Jim

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:47 PM

No, Jim - not guilty. I don't think Northerner has ever asked for, or received, an opinion or comment from me. I have enjoyed many storytelling experiences over the years and have no intention of offending anyone by being unnecessarily negative, especially on an occasion where it's clear that the performer has put a lot of work into their piece and is quite anxious that it should be enjoyed. I just felt I should point out that not all the audience members in this setting were quite as narrow-minded, or oblivious, as the 'gentleman' in the first post.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:10 PM

I just love cptsnapper's idea of asking them to tell the story themselves.

Better still would be to wait until your turn comes around then call him up on the stage and announce to everybody that HE is going to demonstrate how the story should be told.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:12 PM

AW: You're just too nice to be the bully.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:25 AM

"Most people had not encountered a storyteller before." Some certainly hadn't. I think it's probably true to say that as I have been to events up and down the country over the last four years I've probably seen a much wiser range of storytellers than audiences and performers at local clubs and have a good idea as to what I should be aiming for. My interpretation of "The Talkative Tortoise" earlier this year was a pale thing compared to the superb interpretation of that story that I saw done by an Egyptian storyteller (she had the most amazing facial expressions), yet surely that shouldn't stop me from trying to work out my own version of a story.


Thank you AW.   It sounds like you have seen me - now I have to try and puzzle out who you are...

It takes time to develop from a beginner. Some stories that I tell work out better than others. Some will go into permanent repertoire, others won't. Hopefully my storytelling will go up another level when I implement the teaching that I had in masterclasses earlier this year. It's all slow, so I will just keep plodding away, and going to the further workshops that I have booked later this year. And yep, my critic has even scoffed at my going to workshops that I am investing in to try and improve.

Thank you all for your patience and comments. I will keep persevering. I have high standards for myself, so if I don't have a song or story that I am comfortable performing I sit and listen to the other performers. Tonight I will probably just listen.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:41 AM

Oops! That should have been "wider range" not "wiser" though it's an interesting typo...

AW - I WILL be tackling some more complex stories - they simply require more time to work them up to performance standard.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:10 PM

...............hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........interestin' stuff.


From long experience of folk clubs,sessions,sars,etc, story tellin'/poetry's gonna initially face probs.


* when you first start off prattlin', a lotta folks'll be expectin' songs to follow, so [IMO] - its MOST IMPORTANT to EMPHASISE that you're gonna be doing A STORY!

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Carol
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:51 PM

And this isn't aimed at anyone in particular but don't make it too long, that also applies to songs and especially tunes!!

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:42 AM

I know that I can't be the first to mention that audiences are more accepting of song than they are of the spoken word. We can listen to and sing the same song over and over but just try telling the same story twice or, God forbid, the same joke. I am not certain why that is but, as a singer, I am not ungrateful.
Storytellers, unless their audience is very young, must come up with new material every time. Except in academic venues, the stories had better be entertaining, relevant and short. The agents who book senior facilities sell me as a singer/storyteller, which, to these customers, means humor and nostagia. I have had some success weaving story into song, thus, avoiding that awkward moment when the story ends and the audience is unsure of the applause cue. This requires a little thought on the art of the segue but a little thought is all that is needed. Here is the segue I use for the romantic story of "Believe Me, If All Those Endearing Young Charms".

....He read the note and he cried. In reply, he wrote a poem and someone put the poem to music and it became a song, and someone taught us the song when we were in grade school. He said, "Believe me....

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:13 AM

Thank you all.

I always say I am going to tell a story, so there is no doubt about that. I always keep to a length that fits in with the programme (that is to say, no more than the length of two songs on a singaround night). I have never repeated my stories in the same club - always use new material. Mike, I hope to do some voluntary work with the elderly and I expect my sung material to play a significant part in that. I am a singer as well as a storyteller.

Having chatted to one club organiser last night he is very happy to see me perform at his club as he likes to see diversity at his club, and so he is happy to see spoken word alongside songs and music.

Interesting chatting to one performer who is not so happy with my stories though. Problem seems to be that this particular performer is not very imaginative - he rarely reads fiction apparently. So he has difficulty going into the worlds that I create. He is polite and friendly. I don't like all the performances that I see at a folk club - if most people enjoy a performance of mine then that is what I go with. I will chat this particular concern through with an experienced storyteller and see if they have any ideas on an approach. I had suspected that this might be the case but that doesn't make it any easier to resolve.

Got my copy of "Storylines" from the Society for Storytelling this morning. Some interesting articles including one that talks about storytelling in folk clubs. Worth another read...

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:17 AM

"Except in academic venues, the stories had better be entertaining, relevant and short"

Care to tell that to Gordon Bok, Billy Connolly..... ?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:29 PM

Jim Lad is quite correct with the exeptions he noted. I would add to that list names like Mike Cross and Bruce Phillips. But, even the storytelling skills of these artists are tempered by their singing and by their segues. Besides, one would expect that their audiences are aware and prepared for stories. At an open mike, a lesser known performer is not so blessed. Also, unless I am mistaken, these performers tend to tell humerous stories in a highly entertaining way. Moose turd pie, anyone?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:53 PM

I know I personally was so disappointed when I went to a Utah Phillips performance..I love his songs but all he did was talk it seemed...I would have liked to have had that information in advance because I wouldn't have been waiting so much for him to sing..and frankly I might not have gone...and I am sure he is among the finest of the fine storytellers..I am just not fond of stories...but if I know in advance I can reset my brain perhaps...mg

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Unbiased listener
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:15 PM

Northener :-

from me ........ 'He is certainly NOT the club founder'

My apologies both to you and to him.

The person you are referring to IS the founder of that club.

I was assuming the wrong club as that is where I see you most often.

Again, I apologise :-(

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Mr Impressed
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:22 PM

wow.. Northerner sounds so multi-talented..

if she/he can also cook up a decent veggie curry
and do face painting..

crikey.. a one person folk festival !!!!!!!!

.. and an inflatible castle would be an added bonus..!!!

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:53 PM

After reading some of the comments here, I would be very hesitant to perform anything in any of the clubs mentioned or alluded to here. Judgementalism seems to abound, with malice and antipathy not far underneath.   Is there any wonder that folk clubs are dying off?

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:07 PM

Well, I don't think it is bad to be judgemental, in a consumer way, when you are pressed for time and have very limited social outings, which is probably what most people these days are up against. If it is primarily a social club where you might hear jokes, might watch jugglers, might hear a few tunes, and might hear a few stories, great..but it might be more like going to a hockey match when you had your mind set on croquet..or going to a hockey match when you really wanted to go to a quilting bee...just advertise what you are going to offer, and if it is everything, great..the omniists will show up at your door. It is more along limited lines, say that too and people won't be either disappointed or they can decide if that is worth putting their snowsuit on for. mg

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:30 PM

dead right mg..

me & my mrs celebrated our wedding aniversary in a small victorian seaside town..

found a proper old fashioned woody kinda pub that served proper cider..

saw a poster advertisin "Folk Night" later that evening..

went out for a meal in a more modern pub

which on the same night was holding an 'acoustic night'

young local btec performance arts kids mainly doing grunge favourites
in an acoustic stylee..

So in the west country local public transport is non existant shite service..

last bus was befor 8 pm..

thought F@ck it.. its our anniversary...

theres a proper old victorian pub that serves real cider on draught
with a folk club tonoght..

f@ck it.. we'll go there and book an expensive taxi back home..


so went to 'traditional' pub folk night..

DISASTER ALERT !!!

there was one good old fella with a violin who managed to sneak in
the odd folk trad song

but mostly it was middle aged middle class twats in white shirts
with expensive acoustic guitars
poncifying away doing beatles songs..


so b@llocks.. i got cidered up..

and complained about hte lack of advertised 'folk music'

next morning i woke up with vague memory of being barred from thagt pub...

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: reggie miles
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 02:53 AM

mg, are you aware that Utah has had some trouble with one of his hands and it's affected his ability to play guitar? The last time I saw him perform he still offered some songs, but without his guitar accompaniment. I heard he was going to get it operated on. That's been a couple of years ago. Perhaps you caught one of his performances when he was unable to play.

With regard to your comments about advertising properly the type or approach of a given performer's show, like songster or storyteller or some combination of the two, perhaps one could counter that in the hurried pace of our modern lives if we hope to spend our hard earned dollars wisely, we should all take more time to ask questions before opening our wallets.

Before I had ever heard Utah play I had some idea about what I was in for when I went to see his show. I had a close friend who was a fan of Utah and he let me in on what I was in for beforehand.

Our shows will all change as we grow as performance artists. What I sounded like ten years ago or even three years ago is similar but not the same as I sound today. I've incorporated many more ideas in my performances.

My playing has changed but so have other aspects of what I do when I'm entertaining. I've added many story-like attributes to my song introductions. Now, I enjoy some of the introductions more than the songs themselves. I've written story-like portions of songs that appear in the middle of a song and are spoken, not sung. I've also written story-like parts that I've added at the end of some of my songs. Many of my songs are more like stories with guitar accompaniment. I don't sing them as much as recite them. This idea is actually a very old one that I've enjoyed revamping in my own way.

I can recall trying to work in a band format years ago where the other members backing me in the combo didn't understand my interest in talking to the audience before a particular song. So, as I began to introduce it in this way the two other guys in the band stood around behind me, lit up a smoke and flirted with the female bass player that I had invited that evening.

During our break it occurred to me that perhaps their lack of focus wasn't as much their fault as my lack of directing them as to how to follow along on that part of the song that had no music or singing. They knew how to play along as I played and sang but didn't know what to do when I wasn't. The song was a spooky minor keyed double entendre about vampires. So, the next time we had the pleasure of playing it together I asked the others to try make some spooky sounds during my intro. It worked like a charm and transformed the song in a magical way. That opened my eyes.

I had already been a fan of good storytellers before I had the chance to hear Utah. I think he does a fabulous job of mixing stories and songs. Many songs are simply stories cloaked in melodies. I think that there are a lot of songs that can stand on their own without the accompaniment of instrumentation.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 06:30 AM

It's not all bad news. I've been well received up in Edinburgh, where I am going occasionally for workshops. The music pubs there have been really welcoming. I have played along with gentle percussion in a couple of them and was invited to tell a story in another. The one where I told a story was a fabulous experience - I was recognised and invited to tell a story. The audience were really attentive - they hung on every word - they were so longing to hear a story! Playing along quietly with an experienced ceilidh band, so polite and mature, was wonderful too. Well done Edinburgh!!!

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 02:08 AM

As Reggie Miles so compellingly points out, the line between story telling and singing folksongs is fine to nonexistant. Narrative ballads are stories, the jokes we tell between songs, the intros, the slightly exaggerated account of how we got lost on the way to the gig--all stories. As long as I can remember, a big part of every "folk/traditional music" performance consisted of storytelling, whether labelled as such, or not.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: mg
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 04:05 AM

folksongs have tunes. It's not a fine line..it is a quantum leap.   mg

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 01:46 AM

Entertainment is entertainment. You're either entertained by the method or style of a performer or you're not. As an entertainer you can please part of the people some of the time and some of the people part of the time, but you can't please some of them at all and you certainly can't please them all. That's just the way it is.

Some songs start out as just words, before they ever get joined with a tune. It may be a story, a poem, a rhyme, a thought, an idea, a question, a statement, a plea, a moan, a joke, a feeling, someone's pain, hurt, joy, tears, insanity, morality, cruelty, fantasy, ideology, spirituality…

Do we need tunes to express ourselves as entertainers? Nope. Tunes can help some of the messages we present become more palatable to listeners. We can dress our messages in many ways via music.

Does having musical accompaniment make our messages any more valid? Well, perhaps to those who feel strongly about tying messages to melodies, but again, not everyone agrees that this union is necessary to impart a message, thought, feeling, moan, angst, etc in the realm of entertainment.

There are many methods beyond music with which to present our messages, including this method we're using here, blogs, papers, letters, bumper stickers, fortune cookies, magazines, tv, radio, horoscopes, podcasts, newscasts, poetry slams, sitcoms, dramas, soaps, plays, stand up, improv, books, chat rooms, phone calls, IMs, PMs, emails, group therapy, infomercials, and yes, even stories. All of these methods and more are constantly being used every moment of every day to entertain and inform us. Music can also be a part of many of these mediums but the choice of whether to add it and to what extent is up to each individual entertainer, just as it's the choice of each listener to find what it is that is most pleasing to their ears.

Some folks are entertained by listening to somebody beating a drum. No words are needed, just rhythm. Some folks are in love with drama and the complexities of human emotion played out in a serious format. Some folks can't get enough comedy in any form. Some go gaga over the antics of world championship wrestling. Others won't be happy until they've slaughtered their neighbors and left their corpses to rot.

The choices that some folks make in this life are perplexing to me. How or why some can justify treating others with such cruelty and heartlessness is beyond me. They knowingly act out thoughtless and hurtful behavior toward others and then feign ignorance of their misdeeds while they celebrate their pointless petty victories. It is because these poor examples of humanity exist that our world is torn asunder by war and strife. They revel in the creation of this torment.

Is it any wonder why so many folks need to be entertained? To forget, if even for a moment, about the state of things today is such a release as to be worth the price of the ticket. Entertainment is an escape from the reality of life on the planet. As entertainers we sing, recite, rap, and speak in an endless procession of emotions, passionately, sweetly, angrily… to meet the needs of those listening and for our own sanity.

Can't we all just get along and be nice to one another? Sadly, I think not. Well, I guess that's just more job security for those folks who entertain. That'll be ten bucks in advance and fifteen at the door.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 02:35 AM

For the record,
In my opinion Reggie Miles is right, The English language tradition tends to be narrative - not just the ballads. During our work as collectors, singer after singer has told us that the most important thing about a song is its story and that the tune is a vehicle for that story and should be adapted to fit the words, not the other way round. Many have also emphasised that the songs should be sung so that, as near as possible, "the words should be pronounced as they would be spoken".
Nice quote from the jazz film 'Round Midnight' sums it up for me when the older musician asks the young one "Your notes are fine, but where's your story"?
Entertainment, while being an important aspect of singing, is by no means the only one. Singers have made, and have adapted existing songs to record events in their lives and to make statements about themselves and their communities. In the cases where the communities are under threat (eg Travellers), often the songs become an affirmation of those communities.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 02:49 AM

Nicely done, Jim.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Northerner
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:15 AM

"Some folks are entertained by listening to somebody beating a drum" - I don't blame them. I'm in a drumming circle myself. It's great to see the enthusiasm of some of musicians from other countries. They seem so much less inhibited than Britons - sometimes they get up and dance spontaneously. They are so more connected with their roots than we are.

Well, I've enrolled for some more storytelling workshops. Looks like the best way for me to learn is by going to as many workshops as possible, particularly residential ones. One of them in the autumn is a 17-day one to celebrate Halloween. That should bring me on a bit... Hopefully these will not only improve my performing skills but also build up my confidence so that I become more resilient to criticism.

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:16 PM

I would like to reply to those who see a sharp divide between song and story. Song and spoken word have been integral in entertainment since, ay least, as far back as Greek theater. Shakespeare's plays include many musical interludes. Poets, in my time, were accompanied by jazz combos. In my youth, I had a job as a guitarist, playing for Beat poets in a coffeehouse. Is "Alice's Restaurant" a song with a story or a story with a song?
Northerner's problem, I believe, is that the modern "folk" audience is used to songs and blanches at the thought of stories. The trick, with these people, is to not announce that you are about to tell a story. Hold on to an instrument (You might, even, want to strum it now and then but that is not, strictly, neccesary) and, if you really want to grab their attention, tell the story as if it happened to you or to someone you know. That is called personalizing.
If it is a story from long ago (and if you can't change it to fit you or a friend), localize it with place names, something your listeners can identify with. I tell tales about my family, back in the shtet'l, not all of which, are true. OK, none of which are true.
Once, I was doing a show at a Jewish senior facility, telling very entertaining lies about my grandparents, when I spotted my aunt and uncle in the audience. They never gave me away and, in fact, they were laughing as hard as anyone.

                            Mike

Subject: RE: How to handle criticism?
From: GUEST,Wayne
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 01:22 PM

So often a "don't bore us, get to the chorus" mentality seems to pervade. Classic ballads get short shrift from many audiences however powerfully they're sung.

In this respect, storytelling might be an important tool in re-educating people in the art of listening (people bing generally less able to natter during a spoken word piece)>