The National Trust. Folk CD

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:12 AM

The last sentence should have read "which WAS appropriate." I haven't come over all Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:09 AM

Just to be clear: no personal attacks on Lizzie have taken place. Some people have talked about the veracity of the CD's title, given the material it contains, which seems fair enough. I responded to some questions about English music, and a certain version of Englishness (which perhaps isn't a million miles away from that found in a National Trust souvenir shop), being subverted by the Right. As it happens, Lizzie posted a link to a music festival that has links with a Right-wing nationalist political movement. I merely highlighted the link, which were appropriate given the previous questions on the topic.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:06 AM

Mr Fox: yes I pasionately do care. I have a lifelong love for English folk music, an obsessive devotion. Sure I care. So I want other people to enjoy it. I also passionately love jazz, I think "Savoy Blues" by the Louis Armstrong Hot Five is possibly the best track in the world ever. But nothing, absolutely nothing, would induce me to put it on a compilation of English contemporary folk music. Or of English traditional folk music. Or of Viennese kletzmer bands. It's a classic jazz recording from New Orleans musicians recorded in the USA. Similarly with a Scottish singer singing an old American protest song: "English contemporary music", it isn't.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:52 AM

English traditional music (and indeed English contemporary music) has a specific meaning.
To put out a sampler of music which is largely neither (however good some of the individual recordings may be) is scarcely of very much use in attempting to persuade the English that they have a recognisable and worthwhile cultural heritage.
The CD is meant, presumably, as an impulse buy along with all the other whimsy souvenir crap you get in these places.
I care that the public is being misled.
It is this sort of careless packaging that leads people to imagine that wifty-wafty, new-age Celtic drivel and angst-ridden teenage plinky-plonky whingeing is also f*lk music.
For a Key Stage 1 introduction to English trad, gift shops (or any other non-standard outlet could do a lot worse than stock Topic's two compilations Hidden English and Stepping Up.
And in view of the earlier remark about the ripping off activities of a similar venture at Past Times, an examination not just of presentation but of licensing arrangements might not go amiss.
Just how much (or little) are artists receiving for the dubious privilege of having their work so unsuitably showcased?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Mr Fox
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:28 AM

>>Does anyone know who compiled this album?<<

Does anyone CARE? Shouldn't we just be thankful that interest in folk has come from an unexpected direction, rather than indulging in trainspotterish quibbles over origins and definitions?

"MY research has determined that Shakespeare contributed the word 'the' to verse eight of John Barleycorn in the reign of James I. therefore we can no longer call it a 'traditional' song......" For God's SAKE! Get a LIFE!!

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Dave Earl
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:12 AM

Lizzie

You said "who are of no importance to me whatsoever anymore."


The song says :-

I will walk alone by the black muddy river
And sing me song of my own

You know where that comes from doancha

:-)
Dave

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:44 AM

>>>Neither are we making personal attacks on Lizzie.<<<

Sadly Mary...that can't be said for all in here, but..as always it's the 'usual suspects' who are of no importance to me whatsoever anymore.

So...back to the CD then and the inner sleeve notes once again...continued from above......


"Another adopted folk song ' Farewell To The Gold'- which is performed beautiifully here by the duo Nancy Kerr and James Fagan - was written by a New Zealander, Paul Metsers, in 1969. Following a school trip on which Metsers had taken his class to old gold panning territory in the Shotover River, he read about a flash flood that occurred in 1863, and created a story about a pair of prospectors who are caught in the flood.

The tender ballad, 'Sally Wheatley' is performed here by the North Eastern duo Bob Fox and Stu Luckley. This delightful song was written by the great nineteenth century music hall artist, Joe Wilson. It tells a cautionary tale about how a man is caught out by 'courting too slow', taking his time to woo the titular Sally, only to see her go off with another man, 'cause she gans with Mr. Black, and they say he's gonna marry Sally Wheatley', the moral of the song - as Bob Fox puts it in the North Eastern vernacular - 'shy bairns get ne broth!'

The famous modern folk singer-songwriter Billy Bragg's moving song 'King James Version' is given a wonderful makeover by Eliza Carthy, with assistance from Spiers and Boden, as well as violist Ben Ivitsky. This song features on Eliza's fantastic 2005 album, Rough Music, the title of which alludes to an old English form of punishment for minor offences, designed to induce shame and encourage the offender to leave the community."

Brilliant stuff isn't it! :0) :0) :0) :0)


More a bit later on...

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:13 AM

This is the point that several of us are trying to make. It is a very pleasing CD - BUT it's not English folk. We're not dissing the National Trust or the music itself. Neither are we making personal attacks on Lizzie.

Yes, the National Trust is to be congratulated for releasing the odd folk CD - but some of their choices are very odd.

Did you see what I did there?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:40 AM

CD title: English Folksongs. Subtitle: contemporary English folk music. Does anyone know who compiled this album? It seems to be cobbled together from some remarkably inappropriate material.
For example, the incomparable Christine Kidd, one of my favourite folkies, is indubitably Scottish.And her Cotton Girls song is billed as traditional American So, fine as it is, what on earth is it doing on a National Trust CD billed as contemporary English folk song?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Moaning Minnie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:30 AM

I've got a copy. Bought it in April in Wales!

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:41 PM

:0 yourownself. Oh, Ah forghat. Ah shall try to speak Ehnglish ahn this thread.

Go back to Canada. Most of us were happier then. Eh?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:16 PM

Indeed. I hasten to add that the only reason it was brought up here is because someone in this thread posted a link to a related website. It's the sort of thing that really has to be acknowledged.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:07 PM

Thanks Ruth. Bit of a heavy read.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:23 PM

;0)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:22 PM

"Lizzie, I'm not quite sure what point you think you're making by quoting great chunks from the cover of the CD"

Well it is in keeping with the title of this thread, which IS after all

The National Trust. Folk CD
:-)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:22 PM

I'm just illustrating that whoever put the CD together is well aware that some of the songs aren't English and they're not frightened to say so either. :0)

Mmmmmmmm...I'm listening to my CD right now..Oh you SO have get a copy....

I'd type a bit more out for you all, but my contactlenses are misting up with tiredness now...so it's all a blur...great for looking in the mirror though, I look about 30 years younger than when I woke up this morning! :0)

Heehee!


"HANG THAT WOMAN! SHE DARES TO LAUGH IN THIS NOW EXTREMELY SERIOUS THREAD WOT US SERIOUS ONES 'AVE TAKEN OVER AND ARE NOW IN CHARGE OF..."

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Moaning Minnie
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:09 PM

Lizzie, I'm not quite sure what point you think you're making by quoting great chunks from the cover of the CD.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:06 PM

Sorry, probably my fault the thread took a detour. Thanks for the link above - I'll go and take a look now.
Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:38 PM

Snail:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=101144&messages=162

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:37 PM

ooops....

"They shall not pass" (French: "On ne passe pas", Spanish: "¡No pasarán!") is a propaganda slogan used to express determination to defend a position against an enemy"

The phrase has been used as recently as December 2002 by Colonel Emmanual Maurin, commanding a French Foreign Legion unit in Côte d'Ivoire.

oh dear it was co-opted.... ;-)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:35 PM

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:34 PM

Not to detract but, you do realise that these intos will have been written by the providers of the music, rather then the NT. Yes, they have been published by the NT, but I shouldn't assume any great musical knowledge ... not just yet ...

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:32 PM

Next bit... :0)

"In 'Military Road' Judy Dinning and her band, Lucky Bags, create a delightful musical accompaniment, blending softly arpeggiated guitar and celtic harp patterns, on top of which beautifullly harmonised vocals weave a soothing tapestry. This song was written by Jez Lowe (HURRAY!!..that's me not the NT!)....whose group, The Bad Pennies,   Judy was a member of for a number of years. Another brilliant female vocalist is Maddie Southorn whose second album 'The Pilgrom Soul' features the goregous piano-led song 'River', whilst the Scottish singer Christine Kydd performs 'Cotton Mill Girls, a traditional protest song from America, where women workers in the cotton mills began striking during the mid-eighteenth century, due to poor working conditions.."

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:30 PM

I agree that this thread is about the National Trust, not the National Front but infiltration of English traditional music by right wing groups is of current concern to me. Could someone point me to the thread referred to?

(Never mind Justice for England, with Boris Johnson as president and Henry Kelly as a vice-president, how can they expect to be taken seriously?)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:30 PM

Hi Lizzie

Good to see you back

now you know I am a defender of the tradition ... and not just the sung or played tradition but lots of other things too but, please wil you take a look at this link and tell me what you think. I think it is a tradition too far now ... sad to say, i have participated but only once - never went back ...   

Appleby Horse fair thread

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:29 PM

slightly off-topic.

"commissioned folky CDs"

The Wild Side Of Town. The Albion Band and Chris Baines.
Released on Celtic Music unfortunately

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:27 PM

All questions regarding right or left wing connotations aside, having looked at that link, I note that it is exceedingly "last year" any way ... there doesn't seem to be much point in linking to something which may or may not have taken place in 2006 (I note that reference is only made to provisional artistes )and is not current.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:25 PM

Ok..Track 3, from the inside cover..

"Martin Carthy ( a renowned folk singer and sometime member of the great Steeleye Span); and family side project, Blue Murder, which also includes Norma's brother, Mike (Norma, Mike and sister Lal began their folk careers as The Watersons, whose richly textured vocal harmonies became popular during the 1960's and 70's) The first of these performances is 'Black Muddy River' by Waterson-Carthy, which features Norma Waterson singing lead, Martin Carthy playing guitar, Eliza on fiddle and Tim van Eyken, of Dr. Faustus on melodeon. A performance of this song was anonymously sent to Martin and Norma on a cassette tape, some years ago and they only discovered who had written it whilst recording the song for Norma's first solo album - surprisingly, 'Black Muddy Water' was a song by the American band The Grateful Dead, written by the band's singer Jerry Carcia and Robert Hunter. This beautiful performance demonstrates how easily a song with the right sentiment, no matter what it's origins, can become assimilated into the English folk repertoire."


Black Muddy Water is what is written on the page here, but I'd presume 'Water' should actually be 'River'

Well I don't know about you, but I think the information in there is way above what you would normally get on most CDs. :0)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:24 PM

"This very same movement was discussed at length recently on Mudcat"
it appears it's going to be discussed all over again, by some...

Focus..stay on track...The National Trust. Folk CD
there...wasn't that easy....? :-)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:15 PM

Others asked whether the far right has tried to hijack Englishness. It was apposite, though perhaps unfortunate, that a festival to which you posted a link happens to have, on its official website, a link to a far-right political movement.

This very same movement was discussed at length recently on Mudcat,with the festival you've posted your link to getting a mention, which is why the name rang a bell.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:12 PM

I think Joan and Diane are correct to point out the dangers of racism on this or any other thread.

When did you get back from Canada?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:09 PM

But, I thought you spoke Canuck now??? Eh?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:08 PM

English???? Eh? Scuse me, but I don't speak English. I spik 'Merkan. Can you translate?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:04 PM

Ahem....'Scuse me Gals...

I know you love to call everyone and anyone a racist at the drop of a hat, but could you take this arguement elsewhere, this thread is about The National Trust supporting English folk music and musicians.

Maybe you could start your own one entitled 'Places Where The BNP Lurk' and tell folk that they're more than likely in your Lavendar Pot Pourri or selling you that English Rose Room Perfume Spray...you know...things like that...

We're all quite happy in here talking about things English....

Thanks ever so much...

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:51 PM

Well, whaddya know?

Guess what Mr Gubbins came out with in the sinisterly-named Justice for England thread in which a innocence-feigning apologist for the BNP had a go at leading us onto a Mayday demonstration and English music hijacking expedition:

'last thing English music needed was to be hijacked by the far right.'

or the far left....

Then and now: ¡No Pasarán!

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:46 PM

rather more sinister when it's the far Right, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:33 PM

"when the Right sneaks in and tries to hijack issues around nationality"

the same can be said for the left, so the problem continues.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:11 PM

"Nigel S: there are indeed far-right people trying to muscle in on folk here."

In fact, the website of the very same English Music Festival mentioned further up the page was rumbled on Mudcat not so very long ago for containing a link to the "Justice for England" campaign, subject of much recent discussion on this forum:

http://www.englishmusicfestival.org.uk/links.html

Many members agreed that Justice for England was a right-wing movement, and any music festival happy to be linked to it would be highly suspect by association.

This is the problem: when the Right sneaks in and tries to hijack issues around nationality, it can be very sneaky. The music is unfortunately quite vulnerable to subversion.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:10 PM

A little from the inside cover..Well a lot of a little really, very informative..


"English folk music is embedded in traditions founded over hundreds of years, whilst simultaeously constantly evovling, mixing and matching tunes and texts and adding new melodies and lyrics to those which have been long established. This collection presents the best of both worlds, with old and new sitting side by side in perfect harmony.

We begin with Oysterband's hypnotic rendition of the ancient folk song 'John Barleycorn'. The character John Barleycorn is the personification of the cereal crop barley and the song tells of its progression and transformation from seed into beer. John Barleycorn is included in the 1568 Bannatyne Manuscript, plenty of broadside editions exist from the seventeenth century and many have since written their own versions, including the Scottish poet Robert Burns, who, in 1782 chose to use the story as a celebration of the other alcoholic beverage that is made from barley, whiskey.

Just as the sailor in 'Across The Line' has 'sailed the whole world over, across the seven seas' this shanty embraces the same seafaring spirit with words that are thought to originate in Australia - 'I courted my sweetheart underneath the Kaori trees' - and a melody from Brazil (Clube Da Esquina No 2, written by Milton Nascimento, Lo Borges and Marcio Borges), and brass flourishes which were inspired by Benjamin Britten's 'Sea Interludes' This song has been assembled by the folk big band Bellowhead, a rapidly upcoming force in folk music which was put together by the eminent duo John Spiers and Jon Boden, who are heard later on this collection performing 'Go And Leave Me', a rather sweet Victorian ballad which was popular in the music hall.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:59 PM

Certainly confiscate the teacher's guitar.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:55 PM

Not NT but I do know that some pals of mine were severally AND severely 'ripped orf' by Past Times wen they did a CD for them some year sago ... got about £30 each for it ... hmmm it was marketed as 'Beat The Drum' in case any of you have it, I had it - AND it was one of my favourite Cds long before I met the poor beggars who made it.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:31 PM

Erm, I don't have a problem with quality sausage merchants not putting weirdly random items near the sausages. And I almost understand the allegory... But is Dylan the Kentucky Fried Chicken or the ginger biscuits? And shouldn't someone confiscate the teacher's guitar?
Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:06 PM

Nigel S: there are indeed far-right people trying to muscle in on folk here. Like the turbo-folk of Serbia which is an ongoing phenomenon. Who you share your display stand with is an issue that will be discussed in an increasing way over the next few years. I am very happy, for example, if anybody wants to put a Cumbrian traditional tune or song CD next to one of of my similar efforts in my display case in a Cumberland sausage shop But I don't particular want Bob Dylan or Show of Hands or the local schoolteacher's electric guitar chillout improvisations in the same stand in that particular shop, because that would be confusing. And I very very especially don't want a CD of some BNP guitar strummer singing about what a wonderful county Cumbria would be if there weren't any Kurdish asylum seekers there. These are things we all have to decide. Same as the man who runs the organic sausage shop in the first place: if he's got a display case full of his ten brands of interestingly flavoured Cumberland sausages, he's not going to put a pile of Kentucky Fried Chicken bits in the corner, or the old-fashioned ginger biscuits either. They'll go somewhere else. That's the way these chaps run things. It may be over-regimented, or even over-"pure" if you like, but it lets people know what to expect.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:04 PM

Hmmm... doesn't the NT own John Lennon's auntie's suburban semi? However, Greg, you make very fair points. I just think that someone may hear a CD like this, decide they want to hear more, say, Waterson Carthy or Nancy Kerr & James Fagan and go out and buy an album. They may explore further, and at some point decide they'd like to find out about English fiddle tunes... and hopefully someone like your good self could point them in the right direction. Actually, could you, please, if you have a few moments?!

You see, this English folk business is a relatively new thing to me, getting to hear it via the deeply impure(!) psychedelic folk, folk rock etc which I still enjoy. I'm hugely enjoying much of what I'm hearing and only regret I never heard it years ago. And I think, warts and all, flawed or not, CDs like this have to be a good thing in that they may start other people on the voyage of deeply pleasurable discovery I'm currently on. I've even started buying secondhand vinyl again!

And sorry, I'm going wildly off topic with all this self disclosure..

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:45 PM

Nigel Spencer: I agree with you that purity is overrated. But I don't grasp how a record that is so "impure"(your term, not mine) will succeed in interesting casual passers-by in English folk, if it actually contains little or no English folk. My area of particular enjoyment and interest, for example, is the tradition of English fiddle tunes, of which many thousand examples exist. But how will a CD that doesn't actually contain any English fiddle tunes succeed in interesting anyone in English fiddle tunes? I don't follow your logic here.
    The National Trust keeps up its level of visitor numbers by owning a variety of historic buildings and bits of landscape, that collectively form a linked and moderately coherent body of stuff that many(but not all) people find interesting. You like old buildings and fells in the Lake District and sand dunes? Great, go join the NT and visit a few of their properties, they deliver the goods. You want recently constructed supermarket distribution centres? Well, you'll have to wait a generation to see if the NT decides they are of interest and within their remit.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:43 PM

"Do bear in mind, however, that these non-specialist twee gift shops joints have been conned more than once in the past into stocking the BNP-propaganda end of the 'English' market and artists have had to struggle to get their work withdrawn from this sort of 'endorsement'."

What's the story here? Sounds like quite an interesting cautionary tale. I've always been suprised that the far right haven't muscled in on traditional music and tried to claim it as their own special thing. Or maybe they have tried and been successfully repelled? Or are there artists out there who should be avoided like the plague?

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:25 PM

Judging by the artists appearing, I'd have thought anyone taking home either of these CDs and not knowing much folk music would be pretty pleased with what they'd bought - and might even explore further. I'm not sure they'd mind or even care that some of the English acts appearing were singing songs from elsewhere: and in any case, I'd have thought purity in any form was a massively overrated virtue. I suspect they'd only start worrying about it after completely immersing themselves in folk music for many years. Which this CD could be a starting point for, for someone out there...
Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:49 PM

I've had the new National Trust CD for some time now and like it very much - though it isn't English Folk music.

I also have a National Trust CD called "A Lot of Jolly Good Folk" which I bought in 2002. Now, at a quick glance, I reckon this one IS English Folk Music. It's got tracks by Ralph McTell, Richard Thompson, Carthy/Swarb, Eliza, Pentangle, Martin Simpson, Nic Jones, Lal Waterson and Olly Knight, Steeleye Span, Albion Band, Silly Sisters, Watersons, Maddy Prior, Bert Jansch.

Most of the tracks were licensed from Topic.

Now that's what I call English Folk Music! Perhaps I should ring the National Trust and go "YAAAY" at them. They might re-release it then.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:49 PM

Mary asks Is the music of Wales the one with Siwsann George on...

I can't remember but will check...though this may take some time...Grandson number 2 "rearranged" them for me over the bank holiday...:-))

Baz

who took it better than he might...

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:51 AM

Well if it's Classical you're after there's also

THE ENGLISH MUSIC FESTIVAL

And...there is this beautiful video, which, although it's on the site above under the final heading of 'media'...I can't watch from my computer, as my server has started to block the videos..GRRRRRR!

It's very lovely...

THE MUSIC OF RALPH VAUGHAN WILLIAMS along Devon's River Torridge

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:26 AM

Get rid of the classical music they've been playing in their shops

If they are playing the sublime Palestrina from The Making Of Music currently going out on R3, absolutely not.

And for balance, it's not just counter-reformation stuff, but the equally beautiful Lutheran renditions that went out yesterday.

See this thread for more details of this magnificent series, now in its second week of six.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Dave Earl
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:21 AM

Those philistine non-f peeps around here that are my-spacers are already on my friends list.

They is mainly bar staff (worth keeping on the good side of them) or stage techies.

Who else did you want me plug in Lizzi?

Dave

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:12 AM

Is the Past Times Music of Wales CD the one with Siwsann George on it?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:55 AM

At the risk of spoiling the party...

I have a wonderful piece of Battlefield vinyl entitled Music in Trust

Inspired by and for Scottish National trust

I don't remember it kick starting any sort of musical revolution in Scotland...but perhaps they didn't need it.

Greg S....I almost wish I'd bought my copy of Trip to the Lakes in a bakers!

And yes, I was a bit bemused by the track listing.

Past Times Music of Wales is well worth picking up, if you ever track it down...

Cheers

Baz

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:51 AM

This is terrible Dave! We HAVE to convert them IMMEDIATELY! Plug them into your Myspace page fast...and get them hooked! :0)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Dave Earl
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:44 AM

Or the singing from one place we know Lizzie will be heard in the Olde Nat Trust Shoppe across the road.

Hey John Barleycorn,
Ho John Barleycorn
Old and young
Thy praise have sung
John Barleycorn

(sung at not too many decibels cos I is at work at the moment and surrounded by Philistine non-folkies.

Dave

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:33 AM

>>>People will be singing up to join The English Rebellion as they buy their Rose Scented Room Spray<<<



Bet you thought I meant to put 'signing up; there! ;0)

Nope...they'll be Singing Up...at the tops of their voices, right across the country too...

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM

YAY!

Sock it to 'em Dave! ;0)

What we need next is to get rid of the Classical Music they've been playing in their shops, since most of the houses were built and put this one instead!

We'll blast them all with 'John Barleycorn' at 20,000 decibels! It'll revolutionise the National Trust as never before..

People will be singing up to join The English Rebellion as they buy their Rose Scented Room Spray and queueing up to buy Oysterband, Spiers & Boden and Show of Hands posters along with their draw liners.....

Ooh! ;0)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Dave Earl
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM

"It IS a good CD but it's not English folk. Discuss."

Since you ask I will

I haven't heard the CD so am probably not in a position to say whether it is good,bad or indifferent.However, I know the work of most of the artists and would hope that what they have done on the CD is up to their usual standard. If this is so I would expect the CD to worth listening to at least.

The songs on the CD may not all be English (Farewell to the Gold is from New Zealand and Black Muddy River is from U. S. of A. I think) but all the stuff can be heard on the English Folk (club,festival and concert hall) Circuit.

Whether it is "Folk" song/music is a matter that will take forever to discuss (and has been at length elsewhere)but I regard the singers (those I know ) on this CD as singers of Folk Songs.

Therefore I think it is English enough and enough like what I regard as Folk music to be called "English Folk".

Have I "discussed"?

Dave

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:30 AM

In answer to Lizzie and Mother Farqhar - this is a discussion board. It's not really a discussion if we all just agree that the CD is marvellous.

It IS a good CD but it's not English folk. Discuss.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:48 AM

If the NT shops started selling Billy Pigg CDs (and it was the only place), I suppose I'd go and get one (depending, of course, on who'd issued it).

I have Border Minstrel on a cassette that's held together with sellotape and has to be rewound wih a pencil.

Do bear in mind, however, that these non-specialist twee gift shops joints have been conned more than once in the past into stocking the BNP-propaganda end of the 'English' market and artists have had to struggle to get their work withdrawn from this sort of 'endorsement'.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: jimL
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:37 AM

greg stephens quoth amongst other stuff :-

... shouldn't we perhaps also consider getting them to stock recordings of traditional singers and players for example? ...
a trip round an NT property in Northumberland might include an opportunity to buy a Billy Pigg CD ...

Well, Billy Pigg just maybe, though if you are wanting to draw in the general public, you'd go for "RKathryn" surely. As to singers, I have a large selection of source recordings, vanishingly few of which could remotely be called entertaining, and which would drive joe public into fits of the gibbering heeby-jeebies.

.. Arctic Monkeys and Show of Hands in NT shops may be coming, but is that time now?

Yikes. Now there's a bizarre juxtapostion. I think Phil & Steve are just the sort of thing might turn the public on to folk music. Trying to sell them an 80 year old bloke singing "The Maid of Auastralia" would be like trying to make them appreciate the pointing on Hadrian's wall on the worst day in November.

Jim

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,mother farquhar
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:14 AM

There's just no pleasing some people, it seems. I think the Irish call it "begrudgery". Well done the NT.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:07 AM

Of course the time is now! It should have been 'now' years back, but never has there been such an exciting time of music in the folk world.

Yes of course they need far more artists too, which is why I'm writing to them and why I'll send them Albion Heart's Myspace page, filled with English artists and The Complete Morris On page too, filled with Morris Dancers.

If they're not informed, they won't know. But with the advent of Myspace, the music and dance is all just a click away now, and they can sit in their office and 'discover' vast amounts in minutes!

Heaven! Absolute HEAVEN! :0)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:58 AM

Lizzie Cornish: I totally applaud your enthusiasm for your favoured artists, which is a joy to behold. But I can't help but notice that every single one of the artists you are agog to tell the NT about is a revival, "folk scene" entertainer. Now, of course it would be great if they were on sale at NT shops, but shouldn't we perhaps also consider getting them to stock recordings of traditional singers and players for example? The NT has done exemplary work in maintaining traditonal buildings and traditional landscapes, and surely it would be a splendid idea if they stocked the the music to match that wonderful tradition. I would have thought it was stating the bleeding obvious that a trip round an NT property in Northumberland might include an opportunity to buy a Billy Pigg CD.
    English folk music is a fantastic heritage, just as the physical fabric of the land and the buildings is. Let's ask the NT to marry the two together.
    Maybe this deserves a thread in itself, the spread of English folk music round non-music outlets. I a have vested and technical interest, I made a very regional, very hardcore trad album called "A Trip to the Lakes" a while back. It is notable that it is spreading round retail outlets in Cumbria like Japanese Knotweed: places of the Organic Farmshp/craft shop/stately home type. I think this is a brilliant development. It can be found in HMV in Carlisle, for example, but they sell a great many more copies in Melmerby Village Bakery.
   Whether the National Trust should push contemporary song is another whole question. They, rightly I think, stand back a few years before snapping up new buildings. They wait to see how things bed in before acquiring new properties, that is their way of doing things, and maybe they should approach music the same way? The time for Arctic Monkeys and Show of Hands in NT shops may be coming, but is that time now?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: concertina ceol
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:27 AM

Although I applaud the NT for realeasing and marketing this CD, there were/are a little misguided in their selections.

I really like the Joy Division song "Love will tear us apart" and I like the Oysterband cover of it but here's some wiki facts about that song.

"The song was written in August and September of 1979 and was debuted when the band supported Buzzcocks on their UK tour in September and October of 1979. The lyrics are perceived to reflect the problems in Ian Curtis' marriage to Deborah Curtis, as well as his general frame of mind in the time leading up to his suicide. Deborah Curtis had the phrase "Love Will Tear Us Apart" inscribed on Ian Curtis' memorial stone."

Maybe it is a "contemporary" folk song after all?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:41 AM

OK...so I'm not interested in the negative parts of this thread, not at all!

I've just spoken to the National Trust, their Buying Dept and I've thanked them profusely for getting behind our folk singers and the folk world...

And you know what?

They were THRILLED to hear it!

No...I didn't prattle on about where the songs came from or how awful their researchers were, I didn't ask how could they hold their heads up high, when they'd made such a glaringly obvious mistake!!

Nope!

I just said how wonderful it was that they've done this and how marvellously it's being received out here in Folk Land..I told them about Show of Hands at the Royal Albert Hall and about 'Roots'...I told them how many deeply talented people, both older and younger, there are out here and how terribly they're being overlooked...

And what did they say?

Well, they said they were aware of it! And that they wanted to support them as much as they could!

So...why not get on that phone and offer your enthusiasm too?

The number of their Buying Department is 01793 817400 and their email address is '[e-mail]'

Oh and the lady I first spoke to in the Membership Dept (wrong dept. obviously) was so interested to hear about it that she was just off to find a copy of it, as they have free ones in the office, and put it on. YAY!!

ENTHUSE! IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE!!

And now I'm just off to write an email to them too, put it all down in writing so it will be shared around their staff and I'll tell them about Mawkin and Jim Causley and Ashley Hutching's Rainbow Chasers, Jackie Oates and Jim Moray, The Demon Barbers, The Witches of Elswick, Jez Lowe, John Tams, Coope Boyes & Simpson, Show of Hands and EVERYONE ELSE too..

Because...it WILL make a difference!


Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:04 AM

I think it was in "past times" a few years back that I picked up a CD called "The Season Round" which was a compilation of Traditional Carols and celebrations for the whole year, to quote the booklet.

It's actually a Topic CD but at the time I hadn't seen it anywhere else and it may have been specially produced for the "past times" market at that time, although it doesn't say so on the CD.

It contains a number of Waterson's tracks mostly from Frost and Fire but also later Waterson albums (inc a Waterson:Carthy track), one Shirley Collins, one by Oak (the group which featured Tony Engle, Topic's supremo) and also, and probably rarest of all, 4 tracks from The Valleyfolk from Lancashire off their long since deleted late 60's LP "All Bells in Paradise". The Valleyfolk included Steve Heap now of the Mrs Casey organisation.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:00 AM

Ahem ... I had a horrible feeling that that was the case after I'd posted it... thanks for pointing that out...at least I was right in getting it down to the Antipodes... even if to the wrong part of it...slightly embarrassed here ...

Yes congratulations on selling heritage songs - just a shame that in the case of the National Trust CD it's not the heritage it's advertised as being, or part of the heritage of the country that it's being sold in as far as about one third to a half of the CD in question goes :-(

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 10:31 PM

congratulations to a Heritage organisation for selling heritage songs.

Some years back we had the case of a heritage organisation selling CDs from overseas groups, when they had even booked a local group who put out CDs & could have easily found a few other groups & artists who did the same or even better than the import! Fortunately on a later visit I saw local CDs. Someone, probably someone who they had booked must have said something!

ahem, Surreysinger, Farewell to the gold is a NZ song, written by Paul Metsers

sandra

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Surreysinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:18 PM

A really great shame that the National Trust couldn't get their facts right, but perhaps not a surprise ... about the only thing about it that might be right is the fact that the performers are English.

Out of that list which is stated to be "A beautiful collection of contemporary English folk music" there are actually VERY few contemporary English items on there - there are English TRADITIONAL (just one or two), Norma's rendition of Black Muddy River (American and not folk by any description amongst the Heinz 57 varieties that can be dreamed up), Jack Haggerty (American), Farewell to the Gold (Australian) etc etc etc. Yet another example of poor research on the part of the blurb writers!

Re the Past Times CDs - some of them were actually quite good. And I can echo the fact that there are one or two hidden gems on the Gift of Music label - the Christmas CD with Spiers and Boden, Ian Giles etc is really enjoyable ... and it IS at least English music performed by English performers!!!

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:56 PM

Look on the bright side eh?

Loads of people will be finding a whole new music and a lot of talented people that they've probably never heard of....

So..WHOOPPEEEEE! for The National Trust! :0)

Tomorrow I'll try and remember to phone them up and say how lovely it is to see what they've done. It all helps to spread the word and enthusiasm about the music....and who knows, perhaps make them start to think about doing another one...

And as I make my way to bed this evening, with Norma Waterson singing 'Black Muddy River' in my ears, as I write this, I thought I'd give you a flavour of the CD.... :0)

Norma Waterson - Black Muddy River - on Youtube

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:51 PM

I had to laugh at the Gift to Music CD labelled Celtic - it has several very-rooted-in-English-music musicians performing a selection of non-English songs and tunes ( the recording company obviously couldn't find anyone to get their tongue round the various Celtic languages, so the Welsh & Gallic songs are rendered as airs only.)
I am sure that these artists give an excellent rendition of everything they turn their hand to - Paul Sartin, Benji Kirkpatrick, Jon Boden and Ian Giles would be hard to fault at the best of times. But, why not get them to perform what they do best - English music and song!

Subject: RE: The National Trussed Folk Seedy
From: Severn
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:46 PM

Wot? The Grateful Dead's "Black Muddy River" isn't English enough for you, Greg? Too Garcia-folk-Lorca, perhaps?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:12 PM

Be great if the National Trust issued a CD of English folksongs, wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: andrewq
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:29 PM

The "Gift of Music" CDs that you find marketed in stately homes and art galleries are also worth checking for folk music. There are unique tracks by Jon Boden and John Spiers, Ian Giles, Tim van Eyken and other luminaries hidden away on some of them.

http://www.thegiftofmusic.com

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:28 PM

I like the National Trust CD very much. Play it all the time. Trouble is, it's actually called 'English Folk Songs' - and many of the tracks aren't English or folk: Black Muddy River; Cotton Mill Girls; Farewell to the Gold. All lovely songs, lovely performances - but they ain't English Folk!

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: andrewq
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:15 PM

Hi Lizzie. Past Times still has 70 shops and a mail order company. The CDs for each new season's collection are worth a look.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:05 PM

Past Times is past I think. The one in Exeter has just closed down, just a few months after moving to brand new premises...

And just to point you to that Show of Hands CD mentioned above... :0)

The Path by Show of Hands

It's sponsored by The National Trust, English Heritage and The Countryside Agency,the latter being now part of Natural England...

Natural England

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Cats
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:50 PM

Past times also had Moira Craig on one of their CD's as well. It's worth looking at just who is on these albums.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: andrewq
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:34 PM

Don't knock 'Past Times', though, Marje: the shops have sometimes carried specially commissioned folky CDs from the Beautiful Jo label that have included Magpie Lane and Julie Murphy amongst others.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Marje
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:19 PM

Great news! I would have expected the NT to come up with something like you'd find in "Past Times", with Greensleeves, and madrigals, and Early One Morning sung by an operatic soprano. Maybe this will help to spread the concept of English song being a living tradition.

Marje

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:16 PM

Just to correct something..Track 1 is the Big Session II version...which has Show of Hands and June Tabor on as well, but they've not been credited with it, which is a big slip up on someone's part....

So..Show of Hands ARE on there after all... :0):0):0)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Dave Earl
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:14 PM

Thanks Lizzie,

I'll look into the place opposite The Anchor when I am down for FolkWeek.


See you in the First Week Of August.

Dave

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:39 AM

Hi Dave...we're lucky in Sidmouth, we've got a National Trust shop, right opposite The Anchor there...I couldn't find it online but the National Trust site may have a link to it, or maybe you could order it from them by phone..OR...I could always get one for you and send it on.. :0)

Ahd hi Keith! I don't think 'The Path' was there, but yes, you're right about that...Doh! Memory like a sieve, as always...it was done with the National Trust, amongst others I think...I can't find the CD at present...Grrr ;0)

Still...it would of been nice to have had them on this one too as they're so much a very big part of the English folk world now..

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: KeithofChester
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:34 AM

The Show of Hands instrumental CD The Path used to be given relatively high prominence in National Trust shops (I haven't looked lately). The National Trust commissioned it to commemorate the 25th anniversary of the South West Coastal path. So I don't think the NT is ignoring SOH so much as they are probably on a different CD of their own in the rack next to that one.

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Dave Earl
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:28 AM

Where are they sold Lizzie?

Dave

Subject: RE: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:25 AM

And Ashley Hutchings isn't on there either..Hmmmmmmmm....

We already need a National Trust 'English Folk Songs Volume II'

I think I need to ring them up and have a chat...but right now...I'm too busy listening to Bob Fox, so I'm feeling too calm to rant at them.. ;0)

Subject: The National Trust. Folk CD
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:18 AM

Yup!

You all heard me correctly!

I am sitting here listening to it as I write this....FINALLY!!!!! FINALLY they've twigged!

Isn't it wonderful! Glory Halleluliah!! They've finally realised that our folk singers and songs are as MUCH of a National Treasure as the houses of the rich and wealthy!!

And...IT'S BLOODY MARVELLOUS!! :0)


The National Trust - ENGLISH FOLK SONGS

"A beautifl collection of contemporary English folk music"

1. John Barleycorn - The Oysterband
2. Across The Line - Bellowhead
3. Disdainful Lady - Dr. Faustus (although now they've no Dr)
4. The Barring Of The Door - Maddy Prior and June Tabor
5. Black Muddy River - Waterson/Carthy (fabulous!)
6. Military Road - Judy Dinning
7. Farewell To The Gold - Nancy Kerr & James Fagan
8. Sally Wheatley - Bob Fox and Stu Luckley
9. River - Maddie Southorn
10. Go And Leave Me - Spiers & Boden
11. King James Version - Eliza Carthy
12. No One Stands Alone - Blue Murder
13. Hedger and Ditcher - Maddy Prior and June Tabor
14. Love Will Tear Us Apart - Oysterband
15. Cotton Mill Girls - Christine Kydd
16. Oh! Alas I Am In Love - June Tabor
17. Jack Haggerty - Simon Haworth


My only grumble would be that there aren't enough of the 'youngsters' on there, no Jackie Oates or Jim Causley or Mawkin of Jim Moray and when they've actually got some artists appearing twice, well, they should of been on there...

And of course WHERE are Show of Hands??????????????

Ho Hum...

But, at least this is still really great news...and it's a really great CD

ALL that for just £10!!!!

I can't recommend it highly enough...


Lizzie :0)