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BS: Crash of U.S. Economy

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Subject: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:49 PM

It's official. Mark your calendars. The crash of the U.S. economy has begun. It was announced the morning of Wednesday, June 13, 2007, by economic writers Steven Pearlstein and Robert Samuelson in the pages of the Washington Post, one of the foremost house organs of the U.S. monetary elite....

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5964


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:04 PM

I can't figure out what took it so long.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:07 PM

From the article:

"What is likely to happen? I'd suggest four possible scenarios:

Acceptance by the U.S. population of diminished prosperity and a declining role in the world. Grin and bear it. Live with your parents into your 40s instead of your 30s. Work two or three part-time jobs on the side, if you can find them. Die young if you lose your health care. Declare bankruptcy if you can, or just walk away from your debts until they bring back debtor's prison like they've done in Dubai. Meanwhile, China buys more and more U.S. properties, homes, and businesses, as economists close to the Federal Reserve have suggested. If you're an enterprising illegal immigrant, have fun continuing to jack up the underground economy, avoid business licenses and taxes, and rent out group houses to your friends.
Times of economic crisis produce international tension and politicians tend to go to war rather than face the economic music. The classic example is the worldwide depression of the 1930s leading to World War II. Conditions in the coming years could be as bad as they were then. We could have a really big war if the U.S. decides once and for all to haul off and let China, or whomever, have it in the chops. If they don't want our dollars or our debt any more, how about a few nukes?
Maybe we'll finally have a revolution either from the right or the center involving martial law, suspension of the Bill of Rights, etc., combined with some kind of military or forced-labor dictatorship. We're halfway there anyway. Forget about a revolution from the left. They wouldn't want to make anyone mad at them for being too radical.
Could there ever be a real try at reform, maybe even an attempt just to get back to the New Deal? Since the causes of the crisis are monetary, so would be the solutions. The first step would be for the Federal Reserve System to be abolished as a bank of issue and a transformation of the nation's credit system into a genuine public utility by the federal government. This way we could rebuild our manufacturing and public infrastructure and develop an income assurance policy that would benefit everyone.
The latter is the only sensible solution. There are monetary reformers who know how to do it if anyone gave them half a chance."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:42 PM

If it leads eventually to a welfare state and socialism in teh USA it would be a silver lining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:25 PM

The scenario is not going to happen as described. That is not to say it won't happen; but over-pricing leveraged buyouts isn't going to be the keystone, IMHO. Companies folding because they are ovcer-extended and don't have the market to service their own debt will happen, but I doubt it will happen in sufficient domino-like chains to precipitate an economy wide collapse.

If such chains do develop, we will face a depression, and will have to grind our way out of it; and when that occurs we will be able to trace it back to Bush 1, Bush 2 and Pops Regan, IMHO.

This is because they created a climate which nourishes exuberant acquisition as the guiding pole-star of business, reinforcing the worst characteristics of a gluttony-based economy, neatly rationalized with glib phrases about free enterprise and laissez-faire.


But, as I say, I suspect it is not going to go down the way this article describes it.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:32 PM

Okay. I just bought a .30-30, so I'll be okay as long as the ammo holds out.

Jeez, I've been saying this for five or six years....


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:42 PM

Lever action?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:53 PM

I barely noticed the last 3-4 crashes. If you don't have much to begin with, you can't lose much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:58 PM

So true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:03 PM

Yeah. Marlin 336. Nicely accurate, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:15 PM

Two attempts to post a comment. Both went through all the motions. Neither showed in thread.

Was I that insulting?

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:17 PM

One more time:


But did anyone else notice the addtional article linked on the bar at the top of the page that GUEST linked to:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHI20070521&articleId=5720?

It perhaps overstates things a bit, but one more small step toward

"ich bin die führer"

- just like ...

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:19 PM

Factors in the Crash of '29 and the subsequent depression ("the Great Depression" – but I knew some people who were there who didn't think it was all that "great!") were wild-eyed speculation and over-investment:   buying stocks that had nothing much to back them, including such things as the recent Enron scam and other bits of hanky-panky, and a substantial measure of either over-production or under-consumption, depending on how you look at it. There were warehouses full of stuff that people weren't buying, partly because they couldn't afford it, but to a large degree because they didn't want it (current example, the large number of American-made autos that dealers can't sell). The result of slumping sales was that factories started laying people off and closing factories (as is currently happening in the U. S. auto industry), which exacerbated the problem because now there were increasing numbers of people who didn't have the money to buy the surplus goods. In the 1930s, the unemployment rate topped 25%.

There are a lot of different factors these days, but, the main factors that precipitated the 1930s depression are definitely at work today. Yeah, I could see something similar to that happening again.

Let's hope that there are some presidential candidates coming up for the next election who a) come equipped with a brain, and b) know a little history.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:34 PM

Cross-posted with John. No, I missed that, John. Thanks for calling our attention to it.

I'm e-mailing my Congressional Representative and both Senators about this right now, asking a) is this true? And b) if so, what are you going to do about it?

Now. Do it NOW!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:57 PM

I saw it. Haven't done anything yet, but I will be. Soooooooo reminiscent of the Cold War.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 03:33 PM

I am puzzled how that (immediately preceding link) can be constitutional. Perhaps that doesn't matter once the tanks are rolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:08 PM

Yeah, me too. Of course, the tanks that roll have to be loyal to the guy who ordered 'em out....


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:11 PM

Yeah, what would happen if we gave the office of the president all that power and somebody even dumber than GWB got elected?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:14 PM

Look at the EOs and see that he can have that power simply by saying "I have that power." The stuff is already on the books.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:20 PM

I've thought for a very long time that the War Powers Act should be rescinded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:44 PM

This should be read in conjunction with the article in John in Kansas' link...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHI20070515&articleId=5649


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:52 PM

I have thought for a few years that this would come about, and if you'll pardon me, I'll say it yet again.

1) The USA is close to bankruptcy
2) The only chance is to get rid of 'money' altogether and go to some sort of 'electric dollar'
3) Create or allow a terrorist incident in the US
4) Declare that the various Executive Orders are in effect
5 Boom--instant police state
6) There'd be a use for the prison camps/detention camps
7) Lots of free labour available--do it or get shot, your call

Hell, I was called crazy then and I'll be called crazy now. Water off a duck's back. "Say goodnight, Gracie." "Goodnight, Gracie."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Mickey191
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:39 PM

So I take it that FDIC means not a damn thing??

Should I get my pennies together & move to Ireland?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:48 PM

"Mark Calendar"---

Samuelson, etc. "Remarkably alarmist"? Come on--what do you think a columnist's stock in trade is?

As my favorite economic analyst, Shania Twain, put it: "That don't impress me much."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:03 PM

Well, I been saying this for the last couple years here in Mudville... The US is getting more and more like Haiti with 1% holding all the wealth and the rest of the population in the crapper...

Retirement has become a dram for even most baby boomers... Their kids??? Only a samll percentage will ever be able to retire...

This has been the "perfect storm" for the dieing anti-New Dealists and the drweam has been passed down to their kids and grandkids... These are now the upper 1% who aren't smart enough to realize that history repeats itself...

This isn't as much about the US economy as the financial decisions that the upper 1% has made which have effected the US economy... Yeah, those decisions might have been good for them but have, upon closer examination, been very bad for the country...

This is one reason that I stringly oppose the Bush tax cuts that have gone to the capitalists who have, in turn, rolled the rest of the country under the bus...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 04:50 PM

Welcome to the new Guilded Age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

String:

Unless you're talking about less expensive guitars, or primitive trade unions, I think you mean Gilded Age.


But maybe we should call it the Guilt Age -- a nice compromise between sociology and typography and psychology.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 05:17 PM

They do that to horses, don't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Dickey
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 10:40 AM

"with 1% holding all the wealth"

Bobert:

If you are interested in facts in place of left wing, class warfare fairy tales, here are some facts

The dark green colors are the countries with the most equitable distrubution of wealth and the darker reds are the least.

It shows the US in the same category as China, Mongoliia, Iran, Turkey, Bolivia, Kenya. Guinea, Uraguay, Cambodia and more equitable than Russia, Venezuela,Peru, Malaysia, The Phillipines, Madagascar, The Ivory Coast or Guatamala. Two categories more equitable than Mexico or Argentina. Three categories higher than Brazil or South Africa. The least equitable are Namibia, Botswana, Swaziland, Lesotho, Sierra Leone and the Central African Republic.

The US is one category below the UK, France, Italy, Australia,,,"


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 10:57 AM

Whether true or not, the Middle Class in the US feels not only marginalized but headed for extinction. And the truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter, what matters is the perception of those involved.

Ultimately, it was the Middle Class which voted into power every administration and especially those from Reagan to the present (and yes, I include Clinton). And as I talk to people here in this very "red" state I note a massive swing away from those who are being held responsible for the situation the country is perceived to be in.

For the first time in my life, I can even see that if change doesn't come to the US, people in the US will force change -- with violence if they feel it necessary. And don't count on the military being on the side of whatever administration is in power, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

China, Mongoliia, Iran, Turkey, Bolivia, Kenya. Guinea, Uraguay, Cambodia

Most of these are considered Third World countries. And we're two behind India, which has a reputation of being particularly bad when it comes to equitable distribution of wealth. We are supposedly the wealthiest nation on the earth and we're two categories behind India when it comes to equitable distribution of wealth. We have become a Third World nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 01:33 PM

Yes. The U.S. has already slipped into third world status, but the numbers are fudged to make it seem otherwise. Americans have been trained to focus on 2 numbers (the Dow Jones Industrial Avg and unemployment) as the only numbers that bear watching when it comes to judging the economic health of the country. But there are hundreds of indices that track financial activity, and in the U.S., all those indices are sloping downwards.

I believe that if and when a sudden financial crash is needed, it will come from toppling the derivatives market. Derivatives are like the "marginal" stock market trading practices of 1929. People borrowing paper with paper as collateral.

Derivatives have formed a huge bubble of debt that would eradicate the middle class if it is exploded. Pretty much all savings and pensions would disappear (they're invested in derivatives).

If you have any sense, put your money into something of true value now. Buy land, gold, guns, food. Prepare to defend those assets against people who didn't think ahead.

And when the rebellion comes, don't turn to the Clinton/Bush people who created the crisis. They'll try to re-establish control, but when they fail they'll go to their South Sea island compounds and leave us to fight it out among ourselves and the foreign troops sent in to subdue us.

For you women out there, I recommend a Savage .243 with detachable magazine. Doesn't kick much and with the right scope you can take out ChiComs at 300 yards easy. One shot (always shoot the squad leader), then get in your soccer mom SUV for the getaway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 02:15 PM

Hasn't Mel Gibson made this movie already? Or was it Kevin Costner? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 02:49 PM

Dear Mr. Calendar:

Please don't be silly. An economic crash, yes. But IF and ONLY IF certain criteria are met -- and I will leave these to your researching, as I don't feel like doing everything for everyone today.

But as for "foreign troops" and such, well, don't be ridiculous. Your xenophobia shows in the use of "Chi Coms" -- the Chinese are too busy making money, and would be too busy trying to stay afloat themselves if the US economy collapsed, to send troops here.

Your advice about "shooting the squad leader" is also dated, as is your recommendation of a firearm for women.

I shan't post here anymore.

Sincerely yours,
Rapaire


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 03:24 PM

"Catastrophic Emergency" means any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions

So it looks as if Katrina would have qualified, as would September 11.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,diana
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 04:30 PM

Thanks for the link.

Compare the U.S. to Europe and Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 06:24 PM

The thing is, Bush did not implement the Executive Orders that are now all nicely lined up and set to be declared law. I think the worst is yet to come for the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 08:45 PM

That's a safe bet, Peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 09:03 PM

Should the National Continuity Policy ever go into effect, I predict that George Bush will be assasinated and Dick Chaney will replace him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:59 PM

That would be an even worse scenario than having Bush "in charge"! (assuming he really is, which I sort of doubt...)

Say...I just heard a really loud sound. Could that be it? (the economy crashing, I mean...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:22 AM

Never mind. It was just Chongo again. He's testing out what happens if you drop an old wooden desk off the top of a two-story building onto an asphalt driveway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 08:40 AM

One of the classic signs of economic downturn is an increasing fear/hatred of immigrants...................

nick


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:42 PM

That must be why the Bush Administration is trying to pretend that they're not a problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:42 PM

The 15% correction isn't due until fall or even Christmas.

With Apple at 125 I just want it to reach 150 before Sept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM

The crash of the US economy really began with the election of Ronald Reagan, after which the wealth of the nation began to shift from the middle class to the filthy rich. It accelerated greatly after Bush Jr. came to power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 07:03 PM

In all honesty, if the economy is going to crash, I hope it does it while he's still in office so he can get full credit for the policies--or lack of them--that he's put into place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 07:17 PM

We've had a perverted economy ever since who ever was running Ronald Reagan introduced superstition into government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 08:51 PM

U.S. Treasury Holds Disaster Drill in Tampa Bay

http://truthorlies.org/govtarticle0131.html

(Remember, the U.S. govt was holding a "drill" on 9/11. In that drill, planes were being hijacked and crashed into buildings. The same thing happened in the London bombings...the drills "went live.")


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:26 PM

Guest PP.

I just wanted to know what had happened to the other thread, is that such a crime? What is your problem?

I see where I went wrong now, I hadn't put the full-stops in the abbreviation "U.S."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 12:23 PM

Also, by refreshing thread, it may be of interest to readers who have not come across it before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: fumblefingers
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 03:20 PM

If all economists were laid end to end, they wouldn't reach a conclusion. --Will Rogers


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 03:32 PM

'OB Heard at the Wharton School.

An economist walking along a road in the countryside comes across a shepherd and a huge flock of sheep. Tells the shepherd, "I will bet you $100 against one of your sheep that I can tell you the exact number in this flock." The shepherd thinks it over; it's a big flock so he takes the bet. "973," says the man. The shepherd is astonished, because that is exactly right. Says "OK, I'm a man of my word, take an animal." Man picks one up and begins to walk away.

"Wait," cries the shepherd, "Let me have a chance to get even. Double or nothing that I can guess your exact occupation." Man says sure. "You are an economist for a government think tank," says the shepherd. "Amazing!" responds the man, "You are exactly right! But tell me, how did you deduce that?"

"Well," says the shepherd, "put down my dog and I will tell you."'


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 03:34 PM

'A mathematician, an accountant and an economist apply for the same job.

The interviewer calls in the mathematician and asks "What do two plus two equal?" The mathemetician replies "Four." The interviewer asks "Four, exactly?" The mathematician looks at the interviewer incredulously and says "Yes, four, exactly."

Then the interviewer calls in the accountant and asks the same question "What do two plus two equal?" The accountant says "On average, four - give or take ten percent, but on average, four."

Then the interviewer calls in the economist and poses the same question "What do two plus two equal?" The economist gets up, locks the door, closes the shade, sits down next to the interviewer and says "What do you want it to equal?"'


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 05:07 PM

one of the first searches I ever did on the net
was the phrase 'economists were surprised'
try it..


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 05:37 PM

Look out!!! The sky is falling.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 05:44 PM

Well, there is something to it, Doug. Read the news (no, not Fox). Mortgage companies and other lenders going belly-up right, left, and center.

###

GUEST, Froth? Consarned? Yep, I thought that was you again!

You know, there are places in Michigan, northern Idaho, or eastern Oregon where you'd feel right at home.

Now, as to your advice about various kinds of firearms and your battle-tactics suggestions;   let's look at the advice of someone who's been there and done that, to compare it with how your advice holds up in the real world.

Sgt. Alvin York, Medal of Honor winner for his heroism (and an extraordinary number of enemy troops killed) in World War I, was discussing effective "sniping" with a group of fellow soldiers. Many of them were fixed on the idea of taking out the group leader first. York pointed out what was obvious to anyone who takes the time to think about it. It' like goose hunting, said York:    "If you shoot the leader, the rest will spook and scatter. Shoot the last one in line. The others may not even notice. Then shoot the next. And the next. They may not even notice what's happening behind them, and you might be able to get them all!"

So much for shooting the group leader first. You'll just have to deal with the others later, and they'll be more wary next time.

Okay, since I am among The Ancient Ones, I remember the "Great Depression." I was a little kid at the time, but I saw a helluva a lot. I was too young to understand much of it at the time, but I did understand it later.

The most valuable thing you can have during something like the Depression is not an arsenal (nobody came to round people up an put them into concentration camps, and nobody sent out the troops to kill off the surplus population, or people picketing and protesting—the soldiers wouldn't have done it anyway), or a stash of gold bullion (when what everybody wants is food and a few other necessities), although a cash stash may turn out to be handy to have. What really will save your butt, and the butts of your family, is a skill that you can sell—or barter.

Been there. Seen it in action.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: autolycus
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 06:04 PM

If a physicist was invited to consider what he would do if he was alone on a desert island with cans and no tin-opener, he'd say he would lay out loads of leaves on the ground, and so angle the tins that they would soon explode and the leaves catch the beans.

   if a philosopher was in the same position, he would say that he would see if he could prove that the cans were really there.

   An economist would begin thus,

"Assuming I had a tin-opener........................."






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 06:15 PM

Actually the US economy has been crashed for several years... Borrowing and spending money isn't what old time economists would define as a robust economy...

You don't grow on debt...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Janie
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 06:25 PM

Interesting commentary on "All Things Considered" driving home from work today. As usual, I have no clue who I was listening to, but his observation was to the effect that if a credit crunch occurs and continues, and borrowing and lending practices in the USA become more responsible, overseas economies will suffer the brunt, and we in the USA who are largely responsible for the problem because of unsound practices, will actually fare ok. Why? Credit will still be available, but only to 'good risks.' 'Subprime' countries like Turkey and South Africa will not be able to borrow, but the USA will still be considered a good credit risk. The guy said it was US domestic lending practices (not just in the mortgage market, but to businesses and from Bank to Bank that is primarily responsible for the current scare, but we will not pay most of the price. Farmers in Turkey will pay the price.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Janie
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 06:43 PM

The way the news re: financial markets is being reported is enough to cause panic. -Even NPR sounds a bit sensational. It would be nice if some one would speak up and point out that nothing has happened that is not correctable over time. Reacting emotionally and making fear based financial decisions won't prevent or protect anyone from a crash, but can, in fact, precipitate a crash.

I'm about as foggy about economics as a body gets. But I do know that worry never improves anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 07:45 PM

It may be sensationalized, Janie, but although mainstream news the last couple of evenings isn't soft peddling it, their concern comes across as valid. One financial person was asked why his take on it is so much grimmer than it was just a week ago - and he said it's because the situation has become appreciably worse.

The week before, he had said that money lenders and mortgage holders may have cause to be worrying but that homebuyers might simply find it wise to put off the search, because the prices might come down a bit shortly. This week he's pointing out some hard facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 07:58 PM

Well, one thing ain't changed since my Econ 201 and 202 days and that is ya' can't borrow yer way outta debt...

Debt is debt and that means that, in essence the day youm purchase something on credit, you have inflated it's price... Case in point... $250,000 house purchased for cash will cost you $250,000... But now if you borrow the $250,000 and amortize it over 30 years you will pay close to $700,000 for the same $250,000 house...

One of the things that has brought about this situation is the Bush tax cuts... Yeah, they were supposed to go for building new plants so more people would have jobs but it didn't work out that way... What it did was pump hundreds of billions of dollars into the lending pool...

Like I said, this so called "robust economy" that we've been hearing about was a false robust economy... It has been based on consumption rather than production... And it has caught up to US... We have borrowed aone heck of a lot on money to make it look as if all was well when in fact all hasn't been well... This has been a smoke and mirrors robust economy...

Now the smoke is clearing and we are all getting glimpse of what it's really about...

But the funny (no, not funny at all...) thing is that what we are seeing is a replay of the Reagan years... Borrow, borrow, borrow and borrow some more until the note gets called in... Happened in the 7th year of the Reagan administration and it's happening again...

When will they ever learn???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Janie
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 09:57 PM

I know it is grim short term, Ebbie. And I am also 55, not 65 or 75 or 85, so my retirement funds still have time to recover without me being actually effected short-term since I do not depend on them for current income.

But panic, at best, has a neutral effect, and at worst can cause a disaster that might not otherwise occur. I also have sufficient family to band together so that I am sure, one way or another, we can meet our collective basic needs, even if this financial
'catastrophe' strikes and stays for years. I am also willing to redifne family to include friends, neighbors, or the stranger 3 blocks overAnd if the end result is to reign in our society and/or our world to a sustainable level of existence, then I don't fear it to the point of panic.    My parents may suffer. I may suffer. But my son and grandchildren may ultimately benefit. In terms of survival of myself, my progeny, and the human race, I am much more concerned about the impending depletion of natural resources, especialy water, than I am about the financial economy. And even that, I try not to worry about.

The only function of worry is to make you feel bad.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 09:59 PM

An additional worry is that the entire stock of Nomex (fire-retardant material) was scoffed by the US military. Where are the American carrier groups? Does anyone know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 10:00 PM

Shoulda looked first. Three are off Guam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 10:25 PM

How does one find out where they are? Surely they do not advertise their location(s) on a daily basis, do they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 10:29 PM

My post got eaten. Oh well.

Read the Firefox books, it's been done before and so it can be again.
Learn to barter.
Stop being so finicky about your food and eat what is put in front of you. So what if you don't 'like' it? We've been very privileged for a long time.
Learn to hunt and garden.

IF it happens, just deal with it. Day by day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Janie
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 10:34 PM

I ain't a'followin' ya' Peace. Can you explain a bit more?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 10:41 PM

The Liechtenstein economy crashed awhile back, but it made such a small sound that no one noticed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 12:03 AM

But don't rely on the stock market to predict.   I've read the market has predicted 11 of the past 5 recessions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:46 AM

"How does one find out where they are? Surely they do not advertise their location(s) on a daily basis, do they?"

I just know what I read in the 'papers'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 10:55 AM

Like the man said, "I only know what I read in the Newspapers."

                But where did this newspaper come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 11:20 AM

Thge internet. Same as this one:

"While a real world event occurred with the radar spotting of two Russian bombers, the Valiant Shield exercises happening off of Guam's coast had to go on. Just south of Guam three carrier strike groups - the USS John Stennis, the USS Nimitz and the USS Kittyhawk - are participating in Valiant Shield 2007."

Those folks are IN Guam.

Takes a few seconds to load.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 11:24 AM

Have y'all noticed that news coverage of both Iraq and Afghanistan has dropped off considerably?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: autolycus
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 12:09 PM

Actually, we all know more than we read in the papers.

I'l let you do the work.






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 12:35 PM

"Actually, we all know more than we read in the papers."


                   Yeah, but that's all Will Rogers would admit to knowing.



                     Peace - I didn't think Russia had any interest in containing Iran. I still don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 12:37 PM

Other than I don't know what the hell yer talking about, I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:21 PM

I must have clicked on the wrong thing. The article I read had to do with American/Russian military strategy to counter Iran.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:20 PM

You CAN borrow your way out of debt...

They showed an example of it on "The Sopranos"

!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 07:18 PM

I do read the news, Don, and I even listen to CNN sometimes. You don't need to remind me that the market is going through a down cycle. My modest portfolio lost $17,000 between the end of June and the last of July. The market goes thorugh cycles. This one is down, but everyone should remember that the past couple of years have been pretty darned good. We have to take the bad with the good!

It will come back.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 10:43 PM

I hope your right, Doug.

I think we learned a lot back in the Thirties. Let's just hope that we remember what we learned.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: autolycus
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 06:23 AM

it's interesting that some subjects do seem to 'drop off the news'.

   Makes the protestations of journalists that 'all we do is report the news' sound hollow.


   Don, have to wheel it out again.

   "The one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history." Something like that was written nigh on 200 year ago.

   i've always like quotations because they give solid nuggets of truth in pill form. Tho' it'd be better if they were chewed on and digested, not just swallowed. That latter way, they're liable to go right thru without touching the sides.





       Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:24 PM

Janie ..Im not so sure those in the US will fare better than the rest of the world.. (the US $ is worth 30% less than two years ago)
and even less if compared to the beginning of the Bush administration..
Remember this is a president that has added more to the debt than all the past US presidents combined!

They always thought that (supposedly Reagan proved) that deficits dont matter.. But they do. Sure you can pass on the costs to the rest of the world - which is what a superpower does when its currency is the default currency of trade.. (so when the dollar drops in value - all those nations that keep foreign reserves for trade- suffer too.

After the downturn of the dotcom bubble, the one hope of the US economy was the consumption economy and the housing boom - which was encouraged by low interest rates.. and in turn fed a construction boom, has finally burst.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 01:18 AM

http://www.tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www?post=4669

That's a link to a bunch of yuppie stock traders discussing the onset of the next global depression.

The wars and rumors of wars stuff gets tiresome, but this story is legit. Someone bet $700+ million that the stock market is going to crash before Sept 21.

Same thing happened before 9/11. The #3 man at the CIA, Buzzy Krongard, used to work for Deutschebank/A.B. Brown (a German bank). That bank bought put options on United Airlines and American Airlines (the two airlines used in the 'attacks'). Didn't buy any other put options, and the ones they bought on those two broke all previous Wall Street records. A sure bet. So, where did they get their inside information? You know. I know. The world knows. Krongard should have been tried and executed, but he served a few more years, got a promotion, then was given a lavish retirement party.

The same situation has arisen again, but folks know what to look for now. These big bets that the market will go down are now called 'bin Laden bets' because only a traumatizing event can cause the financial plunge. So, if I know about these current transactions, and these beer-guzzling yuppies know about them, then you know DAMN well the SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) knows about them. And if they'll kidnap and torture Jose Padilla for 'thinking' about making a dirty bomb, then I assume the people who made these bets are being tortured right now to find out what they know about an upcoming terrorist event. Right? No? Oh, because they have money? Well, then, if an 'event' occurs, don't forget this post when the Bush/Pelosi team poses as your savior. THEY are the ones behind the terrorism. If I had the skills to track these transactions, I wouldn't be surprised if they lead to the Carlisle Investment Group (whose members include the Bushes and the bin Ladens). The US govt has been hijacked by international gangsters, and it is just a matter of time until they wallop us again. And if they don't do it before Sept 21, they lose 700 million dollars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 01:23 AM

Oh Geeze, the sky is falling again! Run for the hills!

The US economy is in great shape.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 01:44 AM

Well, someone with 700 million dollars to spare just bet against the US economy. Somehow your reassurances just don't stack up favorably against that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 07:14 AM

This sub-prime mortgage thing, along with the process of bundling loans, is something that hasn't come up before. It seems like it's always that way. It's always something new and different that causes the economy to tank, so there's only so much that knowing history will help you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 09:41 PM

"sub-prime mortgage thing, ... is something that hasn't come up before. ... It's always something new and different that causes the economy to tank, so there's only so much that knowing history will help you. "

Ah, but the wise said at the beginning of this sub prime game that the bottom would fall out when there was a downturn... they got 'Chicken Littled' for their trouble...

I got this "10% theory" - if more than 10% of any part of the economy
is 'not local' then external events affect you badly. Of course the whole premise of 'modern economics' is to 'spread the risk' by externalising...

For instance if more than 10% of a country's economy is based on tourism, then anything that affects tourism will cause conniptions...


Of course our 'Guest of many names/Delusions' does have a valid point - it's "what you DON'T know that may hurt you"... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 09:17 AM

Foolestroupe - Yes, I see what you mean, but the concept of "local" could be extended to include the mixing of traditional securities.

             For instance, the sub-prime mortgage situation would probably have been confined to the fringe lenders and borrowers who were engaged in the practice. However, by allowing institutions to "bundle" all of the mortages into packages and then sell them as a whole, the few sub-prime loans contaminated the entire package.
             Now a number of institutional buyers are afraid to touch any part of it. It's like a virus, and it's contageous.

             I don't seen how the president's proposals do anything at all to fix the problem either. If somebody is drowning in debt, what are they going to do with a "tax break?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 12:13 AM

Jim Martin - I'll offer another comment on this issue. In recent days, it's come to pass that both the chairman of the Federal Reserve and the president are desperately tring to come up with some way of bailing out their rich friends who have huge amounts of capital at risk in the US capital markets.

             When a similar thing happened with the Savings and Loans, the Bush Sr. was in charge, and Neil Bush got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, the solution was simple. The simply expanded FDIC insurance to accounts that weren't previously insured.

               This time it's tougher. They don't want to dirty their hands with the prospect of bailing out the little people, those folks who have mortgages they cannot pay, so they are stuck with finding a way to bail out the fat-cats while leaving ordinary wage earners holding the bag.

             They are making the case that the ordinary guy in the street who bought a house he couldn't afford was a "speculator." Their friends, on the other hand, who pushed the loans to the dirty unwashed, were not speculators, they were simply well capitalized business people who were simply trying to improve their bottom line by backing shaking loans that payed higher interest rates.

             Frankly, a crash is the only way I can see that we can get things back on track.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 09:16 AM

Roll on the day (it should be THIS day) we have green economics i.e. the only tax people pay is for polluting! Of course the fat cats in industry would never want to play ball because they are the biggest culprits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 03:12 PM

Rig--


There are certainly problems which don't appear close to solution. I've just read a prediction that the bad employment report Friday just about clinches a recession late this year or early next year. I'd definitely agree the market is overvalued--full of hot air.

But "a crash is the only way I can see that we can get things back on track" ? Do you think the 1929 crash did that? Maybe you'd like to define "crash".


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 11:25 PM

Ron - Yes, I think the 1929 crash did do that, and things were steaming along pretty well, but two catastorphes happened. The first was, Henry Wallace was no longer the VP when Roosevelt died, and Harry Truman took us into the Cold War. And the second took place when the oil powers in the Middle East determined that they needed to get rid of Carter because he was trying to make America independant of foreign energy, so they saw to it that Ronald Raygun got elected.
                Eisenhower helped steer us back from the Truman fiasco. It's too bad he wasn't there to save us from Raygun. George W. Bush is a direct off-shoot of that bumbling idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 01:34 PM

Riginslinger, I don't follow. In what way did the fact that Henry Wallace was no longer the VP when Roosevelt died affect the Crash of '29 and the ensuing Great Depression? We're talking 10 years and more past the crash. And things were well on the upward track during the Truman years.

"And the second took place when the oil powers in the Middle East determined that they needed to get rid of Carter because he was trying to make America independant of foreign energy"

? I'm not even going to address that thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 01:50 PM

Ebbie - I was trying to address Ron's point about the crash of 1929, and how FDR brought the country out of the Great Depression. Things were moving along quite well until he died. If Wallace had still been VP, they would have followed a course more closely in alignment with what FDR intended. Truman changed directions and the country experienced a harsh recession in 1954.

             Carter was trying to make the country energy independant. The oil powers didn't like that, and they promoted Raygun. As a result, we had the worst recession in the early 1980's since the Great Depression of the 1930's.

               Some people make out very well in a failing economy. They just have to wait a little while to cash in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:33 PM

Another way of saying it is: You had laissez-faire capitalism in the 1920's that lead to the crash of 1929, and by changing directions under Truman, then seeing things radically extentuated under Reagan, you have laissez-faire capitalism again now.

             It wouldn't surprise me if we saw another crash.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 10:20 PM

"Extentuated"? What kind of word is that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 10:23 PM

Actually, Rig, it's fairly well established that the only thing that finally brought the US out of the Depression was World War II. Maybe not the best model.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 11:36 PM

Ebbie - I think I was trying to write extenuated. Sorry!

            Okay Ron. Hitler gets all the credit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:28 AM

When you see that a thread has devolved into a series of posts by two or three people, it should probably be closed. Let them go to PMs.

P.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 12:02 AM

People who make over a billion or even a measely million dollars a year will be bailed out in our current system.

However if you make only $50,000 and have to declare bankruptcy the laws have been changed to be sure that you will not be bailed out.

This new form of super capitalism with monopolies at the helm and regulation free corporatism and the destruction of goverment itself and its agencies which used to have oversight is headed for a crash.

The average American will rebel and will do so in the manner of slave revolt.

The corrupt judicial machinery, the media divide and conquer ideaology, new weapons and police tactics that the super wealthy have built to keep the slaves in check will be effective for a very brief time.

The arrogance of the ruling class knows no bounds and will will not cede any compromise that would deliver actual freedoms and economic liberty for all.


Soooo

When the Medici of today find their coporal bodies in peril and not just their multinational corporate profits, we will see some reform in goverment representation for the people and not just the 30,000 lobbyists who are now the only people (other than the military) to have access to the goverment.

Just as all war is now war against civilians the revolution will be a war against the actual families of men women and children in charge of 80% of all Wall Street banks and capital.

I think we all agree that the signers of the Declaration Independence were the terrorists against the Crown.

And I think what we have here in America is a bigger richer Crown.

THe best and brightest of course are recruited by the new Crown of the American ruling class and are sometimes seen on FOX network as a think tank expert who admits the dangers of the quaint US constitution is counter productive to Business and that more Patriot Acts are needed to destroy any threat to Multinational corporations.

That just leaves the rest of us mal adjusted malcontents to free the slaves of today.

Maybe the last straw will be the take over and total control of the Internet.

A revolution was normally put down with bullets and intentional famine. Maybe the next revolution will be put down with free Prozax and Beer. (remember Soma?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Metchosin
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:48 AM

Midchuck, why assume that others are not reading them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:40 AM

Donel, I think you are on track with the exception, don't try to seperate an American from their toys, that really pisses them off. I do believe that some day maybe sooner rather than later many of the American home owners will continue to own their homes but not the land it sits on. They'll be renting that property that once was theirs from the state. They'll also be considered lucky to get away with that & their 2 front teeth.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 09:05 AM

Entertaining reading though - and more interesting than the old '9/11 tinfoil hat conspiracy nutters' threads...


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 10:16 AM

"They'll be renting that property that once was theirs from the state..."


                I agree with your analysis, but I think they'll be renting the land from Wal-Mart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:21 PM

"The US economy is in great shape": Doug R, 31 Aug 2007.


Correction: the Doug R economy is in great shape. And that's the only thing that matters.


Also, ignorance is still bliss in some quarters, it seems.




Rig: "Hitler gets all the credit"

Ironic you'd say that--FDR was lucky Germany declared war on the US--it solved another problem for him also. Otherwise the awkwardness of the Lend-Lease period might well have continued for a while--there was strong opposition to his stance on the war with Germany up to that point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:56 PM

"there was strong opposition to his stance on the war with Germany"

More than that - some even wanted to join in with Hitler. There are even some today who seem to regret that Germany lost, much of the US 'Right Wing' is almost indistinguishable from that philosophy.

Some, such as the grandfather of GW, had all their money tied up in German munitions, and had to 'rely on the generosity of friends' during the hostilities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 09:11 PM

My point is that opposition to US entry into the war on the Allies' side was a serious obstacle for FDR--not just the Bund and similarly obvious sources of problems---but also the very strong isolationist streak in the US at the time. And the Pearl Harbor attack did not in itself solve the problem. But the fortuitous and almost immediate declaration of war on the US by Germany did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 11:46 PM

So, what was the problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 09:46 AM

Japan attacked the US, and the US declared war on Japan. Japan had a treaty with Germany -- as reported in "The Guardian":

Thursday November 26, 1936

The German-Japanese Treaty was signed this morning by Herr von Ribbentrop as extraordinary plenipotentiary of the Reich on behalf of Herr Hitler, the Chancellor, and by Viscount Mushakoji, the Japanese Ambassador in Berlin.

As I reported last week, it is directed against the Moscow Communist International. The treaty is a document containing three articles and a supplementary protocol of three paragraphs. It provides for an exchange of information between the two Governments upon the activities of the Communist International and for consultation and co-operation in measures of defence against it. Provision is made for the adhesion of other States to the agreement. A permanent commission is to be created for common action against the International. The two States are to take within their own laws "severe measures against those who, at home or abroad, are working directly or indirectly in the service" of the Comintern. The treaty's term is five years.

The most interesting parts of the treaty are the second article and the third paragraph in the protocol, providing respectively for the adhesion of other States and for the permanent commission, which, it is believed here, makes the treaty much more than a simple police agreement. Here is seen the technical means for the expansion of the "anti-Bolshevik front."

Apart from the dependencies of the three anti-Bolshevik Powers, Germany hopes for and aims at obtaining the adhesion of Rumania and possibly of Poland. To detach Rumania from her agreement with Russia, and completely to undo the work of M. Titulescu, would, from the German view, be in itself a great triumph, and, additionally, a big step towards the bigger and remote goal of getting rid of the Franco-Russian Pact, if and when a favourable opportunity should occur, through the formation of a Government of the Right in France.

The importance of the standing commission is that it is capable of keeping the German-Japanese treaty very much alive by what might be described as a species of permanent political general staff discussions.


In 1931, Japan had invaded Northern China. The rationale, as reported in "Time" (August 9, 1937):

...in a speech to the Diet last week by Premier Prince Konoye. "I think there are many persons in the Chinese Government who understand Japan, including General Chiang Kai-shek," purred the Premier. "I think it should be the basic keynote of Japan's China policy to make the Chinese race and the Chinese Government return to their original nature as an Oriental people." After explaining that Communism is un-Oriental. while tactfully omitting to mention that the Chinese Communists have now tentatively joined forces with the Chinese Government. Japan's Premier blandly added: "For China to dance to such a [Communist] tune and bring on trouble in the Orient is tantamount to weakening the Orient by its own hands. I earnestly hope that the Chinese race will awaken as quickly as possible to realization of its nature as an Oriental race and that it will cooperate with the Japanese, who come of the same Oriental stock. . . . Japan wants not territory but cooperation. ... If we had such designs, the entire territory of North China would have been seized by the invincible Imperial Army long ago."

In this Japanese pronouncement connoisseurs observed the authentic Adolf Hitler touch, chalked it up to the German-Japanese Treaty signed last year for co-operation against Communism.


Thus, the invasion of China by Japan was not to seize China, but to defeat Mao and his Communists. Imagine how surprised the Japanese must have been when the Chaing Kai-Shek's army fought back! Note too that China did not declare war on Japan until July 7, 1937.

Two years after this, Germany invaded Poland. Poland had mutual defense treaties with France and Britain, so Britain and France declared war on Germany. Germany, meanwhile, had cut a deal with Stalin (on August 23, 1939), the German-Soviet Nonagression Pact of 1939, which in effect gave the Soviet Union a chunk of Poland for not attacking the attacking German forces.

Since Germany and Japan had the aforementioned treaty, Japan and Italy (remember Italy?) also went to war with Britain and France.

Of course, a year later Hitler tossed this treaty out and attacked Russian on June 22, 1941, and Stalin was surprised even though he'd been told, from both British and Japanese sources, that the attack was coming.

In December, the Japanese attacked the US at Pearl Harbor and the US declared war on Japan. Again, because of the 1936 treaty, the Germans and Italians declared war on the US.

Here's a brief timeline:

December 7: Japan declared war on the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa. United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Finland, Hungary and Romania. Canada declared war on Finland, Hungary, Japan and Romania. Panama declared war on Japan. Yugoslavia at war with Japan.

December 8: United States, United Kingdom, Australia, Costa Rica, The Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, The Netherlands, New Zealand and Nicaragua declared war on Japan.

December 11: Germany and Italy declared war on the United States. The United States and China declared war on Germany and Italy.


Avoid entangling foriegn alliances, George Washington advised in his Farewell Address.

He was right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:03 AM

The world would be a much different place today if the United States had stayed out of WWII. But after having been attacked at Pearl Harbor, what choice the the Roosevelt Adminstration have?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:56 AM

I recently read Philip Roth's novel depicting alternative history, i.e. if Roosevelt had not won in his last election and Charles Lindbergh, an apparent Nazi sympathizer, had. Published in the early 1990's, it was well done although I think the ending was weak. At the end, it all came right. I would have preferred to have Roth gaze farther into that future and its implications.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:05 PM

Ebbie - I read the same book--"The Plot Against America"--and it changed the way I see Philip Roth completely. It was published in 2004, actually.
             He attacked both Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh because of their alleged attitudes towards Jews. If one looks into the comments of Ford and Lindbergh at the time, one finds they were actually concerned more about international banking cartels, and both had reasons, personal and financial, to oppose America's entry into the war.
             I came away thinking the book to be an outrageous attempt to re-write history, and I agree that the ending didn't leave the reader any better informed than he/she probably was in the opening paragraph.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 10:58 PM

"What was the problem?"

Problem was FDR wanted to support the British, who had their backs up against the wall in 1940--and still were virtually alone in late 1941, as you know. But their main adversary was Germany.   And there was a strong isolationist streak in the US, aggravated by the "Merchants of Death" conviction about World War I--and the realization that it had not been the "war to end all wars"--as had been suggested. Though Pearl Harbor brought the US in against the Japanese immediately, it did not automatically mean the US could and would declare war on Germany immediately. However, as I noted, Germany solved that problem by declaring war on the US. So FDR could then ask for a declaration of war on Germany-- and support the British to the hilt, and in the open--not possible up to that time. Up to that time it had been Lend-Lease---and other operations, some not maintaining the US' theoretical neutrality--- like the one memorialized by Woody in "The Sinking of the Reuben James."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:01 PM

" Main adversary was Germany"--at least at home. Obviously Japan was an adversary elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 11:05 PM

Germany had little choice but to declare war on the US after the US declared war upon Germany's ally Japan.

Would you rather that the US hadn't supported Britain, France, Russia?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 12:21 AM

Not necessarily so, Rapaire. Germany could easily have not declared war on the US---or delayed it substantially---which would have complicated FDR's calculations considerably.   Hitler was not exactly the most honorable negotiator elsewhere.

Nobody, as far as I can tell, is arguing that the US should not have supported the UK etc. Just pointing out the awkward situation FDR was in up to Germany's declaration of war.

It's also interesting that the US Ambassador to the Court of St James 1938 til November 1940, Joseph P Kennedy, was an embarrassment--not only anti-Semitic but defeatist--and FDR sought to dampen his influence. And when the US did enter the war, Kennedy blamed FDR personally for the death of his oldest son in the war.

But it's possible we're edging into rather egregious thread creep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 06:52 AM

Ron - Why would you label Joe Kennedy anti-Semitic?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 07:22 AM

Probably because there is a fair bit of evidence to say he was.

Google Kennedy and anti-semitic. I reckon the best reason is because at the bottom line as Irishmen they wanted a minority to ridicule.

But I repeat, loads of evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 09:24 AM

Joe Kennedy was both a supporter of Hitler and anti-Jewish. Far too much evidence to ignore it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 09:50 AM

Maybe that explains the assassination of JFK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 11:29 AM

Maybe that explains the assassination of JFK

Doubt it, but it is one of the few explanations not mentioned before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 10:45 PM

"I reckon the best reason is because at the bottom line they wanted a minority to ridicule"

Hope you're not serious.

On the off chance you are, I 'd guess a more likely explanation is that Kennedy--after all, we're only talking about one man--had made his name in finances and in Hollywood--both areas where he would have encountered Jewish competitors. Maybe he resented the competition.

But Kennedy was a classic worm--even in the correspondence collection put out by one of his granddaughters, that comes out--aggressive, unscrupulous, defeatist, womanizing, anti-Semitic. A real joy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 10:32 AM

"Kennedy--after all, we're only talking about one man--had made his name in finances and in Hollywood--both areas where he would have encountered Jewish competitors."

            Henry Ford and Charles Lindgergh probably had similar dealings, and I suspect the friction went both ways. I think that's why Philip Roth was so far off base with the book described above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 06:46 PM

Judge in Stock Adviser's Trial Bars Testimony on Terrorism

New York Times, November 9, 2004

...But they will not hear evidence supporting an assertion that prosecutors once made suggesting that Mr. Elgindy might have had advance knowledge of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, a judge said yesterday.

The matter came up in the fourth full day of testimony in United States District Court in Brooklyn. Derrick Cleveland, a former business associate of Mr. Elgindy who is now a government witness, was asked by an assistant United States attorney, Kenneth Breen, about a mid-September 2001 F.B.I. investigation into Mr. Elgindy. When Mr. Cleveland responded that the investigation was related to "terrorism," Judge Raymond J. Dearie brought the hearing to a halt.

"This case has nothing to do with terrorism," he said to the jury in a planned set of instructions. "You will hear no evidence that Mr. Elgindy or others were involved in 9/11."

...in May 2002, Mr. Breen argued in a bail hearing that the decision of Mr. Elgindy to sell $300,000 in stock on the afternoon of Sept. 10 might suggest that he had "preknowledge of Sept. 11 and rather than report it he attempted to profit from it."

http://www.asensioexposed.com/elgindytrial.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 07:52 PM

So is there any indication that the authorities are looking into the stock sale, or have they just let the whole thing go?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 10:10 PM

I posted that story, by the way, because it relates to the U.S. justice system thwarting investigations into 9/11 stock activities. They're torturing goat herders at Guantanamo, but the people who benefitted from 9/11 stock manipulation don't have to answer for it.

The only real piece I can find about the current bin Laden trades is:

http://www.infowars.com/articles/economy/uk_northern_rock_mystery_trader_collect_on_financial_meltdown.htm

This only tangentially relates to the "Crash of the U.S. Economy," because the bets were made against the Eurostoxx market, but look at what's happening there. It appears that someone is indeed going to benefit from the plunging of that market, and the "mystery trader" probably won't ever be revealed. Let's get our priorities straight. O.J.'s back in the news.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 11:42 PM

One would think the government would look into folks who made massive amounts of money due to the 9/11 attacks.

               It looks like this other guy can make a killing by simply having enough money to manipulate the market. Deregulation is to blame, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 12:26 AM

There's been quite a storm going on, with questions about the effectiveness of the U.K. banking system, in the fall-out of the Northern Rock Building Society affair (the Bank of England seem to be bailing them out)! How many other institutions could they afford to do it for?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 08:18 AM

From what I can gather from BBC Radio 4 this morning, the government seem to be saying that they want to guarantee people's bank accounts up to the value of £100k, is this un-precedented, I wonder? (can they even afford it?)

It also seems that many people are on the verge of panic selling with the volatility at present, is this not what happened with the great depression?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:54 AM

I thought that deposits were Govt guaranteed up to £30k already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:26 AM

Mark Calendar,

Sept 21 has gone by, could you please now explain what went wrong?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 02:11 PM

Well, the economy of the US is crashing.

As far as the 'bin Laden' trades, they were made against a European market, and from what I read the bet was that the Eurostoxx would go down by 30%. Did that happen, with the runs on the banks and all? I didn't keep up, but there is apparently still a lot of concern about finances over there.

And Europe and the world are pointing at the 'sub prime lending rate' in the US as the cause of the world's financial problems, so world investors are baling out on the US economy.

A lot has happened to the U.S. economy in the last couple of weeks. The Federal Reserve cut its lending rate by half a percent, but this was just a token action. A bandaid on a hemmorhage. So, we have the people who ENGINEERED the destruction of the economy (the Federal Reserve), pretending to help, while the current head of the Fed, Bernanke, is telling the world the US is a bad investment. Greenspan and Volker (former Fed heads) also came out with their 'opinions' that the US is a bad investment. Treasury Secretary Paulson did the same. So, the 4 heavyweights in the field all beat the US economy mercilessly over the past couple of weeks, and I'd say THAT was the act of terrorism.

As a result of our own 'financial gurus' bad-mouthing us, Saudi Arabia refused to follow the half a percent rate cut in the US. First time in history that has happened. The American and Saudi currencies had always been bound together, until last week. Venezuela is also selling off its holdings of dollars as fast as it can now. So now, two huge oil producers no longer want US dollars. First we lost our gold and silver backing of the dollar, and now we're losing our petro dollar. The only thing backing the dollar now is 'faith', and the Greenspan mob is busy destroying that.

We can now expect to go the way of Argentina. Its currency collapsed. When the dollar collapses, the new AmeroDollar will be introduced. The EuroDollar is now being artificially inflated so that in the near future, when Americans are experiencing hyperinflation, we can be shown the model of how successful a 'unified' currency can be. The Amero will be forced on us, and the American and Canadian standards of living will be cut in half while the Mexican standard rises.

No time to go back and edit the above, but you get the gist. For an interesting look at how Americans are waking up to the Central Bank scam, go to YouTube.com and type in "C.H.A.N.G.E confronts Alan Greenspan."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 03:23 PM

OK, Froth, Don, Mark Calendar (OK, I marked the calendar for September 21- now what?), there is something seriously wrong with that YouTube link. All it basically has is people ranting at Alan Greenspan in one place, a book signing, and as a "Congressman" rants at him at the witness stand.

Greenspan says literally one sentence: "Congressman, America has the highest living standard in the world."

It is not clear at all that both men are in the same room, much less in a congressman/Greenspan confrontation.

Imo, Greenspan's policies may be suspect, his politics and patriotism are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:17 PM

'"Greenspan says literally one sentence: "Congressman, America has the highest living standard in the world."'


                   I think he might be wrong about this, depending on how you define it.

                   Watching Greenspan on "Book TV," he indicated that he thought the collapse of the Soviet Union put the world economy into a deflationary posture, but that is ending now, and we are about to enter an inflationary posture. I got the impression that he didn't really think this was a good thing for America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:46 PM

Rig, I wasn't addressing that sentence- I agree that it is mistaken and so did the 'Congressman'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 05:33 PM

Oh, they were in the same room alright. For another bit of enlightenment, look up Bernanke and Ron Paul. Dr. Paul grilled Bernanke the other day, and that's an excellent clip. Don't recall if its on Youtube or google video.

The job of central banks is, partly, to exert control over governments. The Federal Reserve was founded in 1913 in the US, and shortly after that Canada got its central bank. Once a 'central bank' takes over the fiscal duties of a country, that country is in serious trouble. Look at how Greenspan 'kept interest rates low' for so long. That was calculated. It caused Americans to take advantage of easy credit, and now that credit has been shut off, like a tap. Millions will lose their homes and property. This is how the wealthy (who own the central banks) use the banks to acquire. Boom and bust cycles. Just like before the Great Depression, when credit was easy to obtain and people speculated wildly in the stock market. Same thing is happening today. And this time around, it was Greenspan who set the country up for the fall. Greenspan has no more regard for America than he does for Uganda. It's all business to him.

Listen to the figures that congressman Sanders quotes in the clip again. Where are the jobs in America, the production, etc.? It's all gone or going. And look for the Bernanke / Paul clip. They're trying to pull it from the internet, from what I understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 05:55 PM

Mark C - It's too bad Ron Paul doesn't have better financing for his campaign. He seems like a pretty straight shooter to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 06:13 PM

OK- I'll bite - What Congressman Sanders? Because it most certainly is NOT Bernie Sanders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:11 PM

Anyway, I think Bernie is a senator now. Maybe there is hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 12:26 PM

Please refresh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 12:58 PM

The first entry in this thread was in June, 2007, and the writer predicted the "Crash" based on a couple of left-wing Washington Post writers.

Yesterday the stockmarket closed at the highest point in U.S. history.

No doubt about it, "the sky IS falling"!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 01:02 PM

A few years back the American dollar cost about $1.50 Canadian. Today it's almost at par.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 01:03 PM

The, uh, sky ain't fallin'; the dollar is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 01:50 PM

Peace: Having jsut returned from a very enjoyable trip to Scotland, you will get no argument from me on that point.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 02:02 PM

I hope it was a wonderful trip, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 06:45 PM

The question is, how far will the Fed let the dollar fall before it thinks it's time to raise interest rates again? When it does, stocks will fall.

                The thing that economists continue to leave out of their discussion is the cost of the war in Iraq. If that's not causing a huge drain on the American economy now, it will have to have that effect in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 12:46 AM

Doug R--

"... a couple of left-wing Washington Post writers". Now, let's see--it appears Robert Samuelson is one of those "left-wing writers". So let's just take a look at a few of his columns, shall we?

"Prius Politics": "Prius politics is mostly about showing off, not curbing greenhouse gas emissions".   And how about "A Full Tank of Hypocrisy"--?: "It's fun to blame unpopular occurrences on corporate greed".

Yup, sounds like Samuelson's a left-wing pinko commie Red, all right. Brilliant, Doug.

Tell me, is doing just a bit of research always too much of a burden for you? Pobrecito. (No wonder you're a Bush voter--and no wonder US foreign policy is such a triumph, with giant intellects like your good self cheering Bush on.)

Are you just imitating your mighty leader, the Chickenhawk- (and Chowderhead)- in Chief?

Or maybe you just don't like anybody shaking your house of cards. The market is overvalued. We'll find out what that means eventually.    Who knows what the timeframe will be? But I'm sorry to have to tell you that you're wrong about Mr. Samuelson. The only criticism easily levelled against him is that he is a columnist, and, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, alarm is in their DNA.

But it's OK. Eventually we'll learn to just accept the fact that it's not reasonable to expect you actually think and do some work before hitting "send".

Looking forward to your next tightly-argued posting. Thanks for the cheap entertainment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 01:19 AM

And let me say in advance how sorry I am if you've taken offense at anything I've said. (If it's good enough for the Pope, it's good enough for me.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 01:03 PM

The Dow Jones...isn't that number derived from a handful of chosen stocks? And if a stock isn't a good performer, isn't it dropped from the Industrial average? A misleading and archaic measuring system. Even the name is prehistoric. "Industrial" average. What industry?

And what did you expect when the economy crashed...a big Hollywood bang ? The media says the Canadian dollar has reached parity with the U.S. dollar. That's mis-reporting by the media. The truth is, the U.S. dollar has FALLEN to a position of parity with the Canadian dollar. U.S. dollars are just worth less than they used to be.

The economy is collapsing. We'll only see the big bang if there's a rush to sell off dollar holdings by the big holders. I expecti that'll happen someday, when Halliburton is the only stock represented in the Dow Jones and the "market" has climbed to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Everyone will be shopping at Goodwill on their way to the soup kitchens, but feeling good because the "market's" in good shape. Then China will sell off its dollars and even the soup kitchens will have to shut down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 01:18 PM

Guest Mark C - What's to prevent China from taking over WalMart, and then using that entity to buy up the soup kitchens?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 02:02 PM

Walmarts are just conduits for Chinese goods. Always have been, even when the TV ads said they only sold Made in USA products. That was before high definition TV and the little asterisk that noted "Sell American products when available" wasn't visible on most screens. I was under the impression the Wall family cut a deal decades ago to sell Chinese slave goods in exchange for a piece of the Wall empire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 02:26 PM

Just for the record - Walmart is owned by the Walton family. Not the Wall family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 02:34 PM

The US dollar tanks and there is nary a whisper on corp cable news.

So oil is now over 80 bucks a barrel.

I remind you that oil went from $12 to $40 a barrele when Bush Sr. first bombed Iraq.

Now it went from 50 to 80


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 03:19 PM

I just hate it when I am crashingly wrong. :) When I said it was not Bernie Sanders, I was thinking of Barney Frank. Don't even know why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 08:12 PM

News yesterday said hundreds of jobs expected to go in the City (London)!

Once again, U.S. sneezes and the world catches a cold!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 08:40 AM

"Just for the record - Walmart is owned by the Walton family. Not the Wall family."

            Famous for living on a Mountain named for them in the 1930`s.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 10:40 PM

The 'Naomi Wolf - The End of America' thread prompted this!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:47 AM

Naomi Wolf seems to deal with a social/cultural decline in America. That wouldn't necessarily mean a crash of the economy. Of course a decline in the economy means different things to different people. To me it never felt like the economy recovered from whatever whoever was running Ronald Reagan did to it in the 1980's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 09:47 AM

"No doubt about it, "the sky IS falling"!"

No - the ground is rising...


$US is at 91 Aus c - highest since we let it float... had been down to 40 c Aus...


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 01:56 PM

Amos says:
"If such chains do develop, we will face a depression, and will have to grind our way out of it; and when that occurs we will be able to trace it back to Bush 1, Bush 2 and Pops Regan, IMHO."

We are headed toward a depression because there is no disposable income for most
working people. The corporations can't survive without support from US economy. They may survive through outsourcing and off-shore banking but that doesn't affect how the US economy will deal with the unreported poverty level of the average American. These multi-nationals will eventually have to answer to disgruntled American workers. Boycotts, strikes and unrest as the economy goes down will be the order of the day. (Hello 1932).

The government will have to be drawn into a standstill economically before changes can
occur as in the New Deal. If the US continues as a dictatorship, there will be a kind of
revolution (hopefully non-violent) in this country. We have too many "good Germans" already. Some of them might wake up and find out that prosperity is not around the corner.

When industry is out-sourced, debt relief is not in sight, jobs become low-paying service instead of better-paid industrial work, CEO's are taking home too much pay and retirement benefits, this is a prescription for economic disaster. The housing bubble has exploded. Most Americans are living on borrowed credit as is the country as well.

The CAFTA, NAFTA, WTO and other disastrous so-called "free trade" agreements will be supported up to a point. Then Americans will realize that they've been had. The only solution I see is another FDR or Teddy Roosevelt to disempower the corporations.

Russia is a primary example of the kind of disaster capitalism that could infect the US if it hasn't already. Naomi Klein illustrates this well.

The question that Naomi Wolf presents is that will an American dicatorship attempt to shore up a failing economy like was done in 20's Berlin. Can we be saying "Heil Bush"?

A lot will depend on the status of the American shrinking middle class. What happens when the gigs aren't there?

Greenspan is one of Naomi Klein's "Milton Friedman Chicago boys". His outmoded
view of "trickle-down" hasn't worked but he hangs on ideologically to a sinking ship.
It's not that different from the "Social Darwinism" of the 1920's.   It's a mistaken notion that the "market corrects itself" and that human lives ultimately benefit from this dogma.
It hasn't worked and it will lead to a depression or dictatorship.

Bush and Cheney may have the idea that a war would pull the US out of a failing economy.
Many conservatives mistakenly think that this is what took place when FDR gained office.
This is a strongly debatable point. There is sufficient data to support the idea that
FDR put policies in motion to pull the country out of the Depression prior to WWII but try telling that to today's war-mongers.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 09:41 PM

"...we will face a depression, and will have to grind our way out of it; and when that occurs we will be able to trace it back to Bush 1, Bush 2 and Pops Regan..."

               Truer words were never written.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 10:26 PM

The US economy has been crashing for about twenty-seven years. Recently the slide has become more precipitous. E.g., my neighbor is an architect; his house is being foreclosed -- one of about 100 in this community alone, and we have 1.5% unemployment.

Just another blow to the middle class....


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 11:00 AM

These really low unemployment numbers are very hard to believe. The company where I work just laid off half its work force, and other people in the industry are laying off folks all over the Pacific Northwest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 11:06 AM

Believe the numbers. PLEeeeeZE

The Office of Management and Budget has spent a fortune on private experts from Regent college, extortion, lowering or raising the bar on previous defintions and regulations, fake press conferences and strategic statistical manipulation to get you to believe the numbers.

It would be a shame to make all of their efforts a gigantic waste of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 07:49 AM

Look at all the troubel the Warren Commission went to to be believed. Practically nobody believes them now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 07:44 AM

Little Fascist Johnny just cleverly redefined the definition of "unemployed" - 'full time employment' is now defined as an hour of work a fortnight... (that's the unemployment payment period!) - and that's after large numbers of 'approaching elderly' were moved from 'unemployed' to 'disability' pensions - then of course, there was a fuss cause there were too many 'disability pensions', so now he changed the rules to try to force those on pensions to get part time work - which counts in the stats as ... you get the idea... :-0


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:04 PM

A Pearl Harbor without war

In only 15 years, from 1992 to 2007, the US balance of trade deficit has surged from $84 billion to $700 billion.

Within a single generation, the world's biggest lender has become its biggest borrower


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:07 PM

I heard somewhere that China has 1.6 TRILLION in American Treasury Bills. Anyone else hear that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:54 PM

Close, Peace...I quote directly from Wolfgang's linked article:

"The Chinese are satisfied with buying US treasury bonds, partly to keep their most important customer afloat. The central bank in Beijing already holds currency reserves of $1.4 trillion."

So it's $1.4 trillion in US treasury bonds, not 1.6, according to that article in Der Spiegel. As the US currency loses value, the Chinese lose the value of their investment in America's future. So the question is, will they dump their US money to cut their losses? And if so, how much of it? And if they do, it's terrible trouble for the USA...and by extension, much of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Kent Davis
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:36 AM

Mark Calendar: "The U.S. has already slipped into third world status."
Bobert: "The US is getting more and more like Haiti with 1% holding all the wealth"
CarolC: "We have become a Third World nation."
Riginsilver: "The crash of the US economy really began with the election of Ronald Reagan... It accelerated greatly after Bush Jr. came to power."
Rapaire "The US economy has been crashing for about twenty-seven years. Recently the slide has become more precipitous."

How are the rest of you doing? We still have plenty of turnips, a few beets, and some sheep we can slaughter. Here in the country, we are less affected by the crash. It must be eerie in the cities, the deserted malls, the freeways nearly empty at 5 p.m., the theatres and nightclubs abandoned for the churches and soup kitchens. I think of the emigrants swimming south across the Rio Grande, hoping for a new life in Mexico. I think of Miami, that once-proud city, depopulated, the now-pensionless elderly having fled Northward to live with their grandchildren, the Cuban-Americans seeking refuge in Havana. How everyone's lifestyle must have changed - people buying only the bare necessities, grocery stores with no expensive convenience foods, lottery tickets and cigarettes sitting dusty on the store shelves while everyone spends hoarded pennies on parsnips and cabbage, Applebee's, Ruby Tuesday, and TGIFriday's going out of business as everyone cooks at home, L.L. Bean and The Gap closing as families sew their own clothing. Who would have believed, in the old days of childhood obesity and type 2 diabetes, that America would now be having epidemics of scurvy and beriberi? I could not do it now, for it would break my heart, but someday I must visit your world.
Kent


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:51 AM

Actually, it's not de-population that's the problem, it's over population. The pie has to be cut into smaller and smaller slivers. And the economic modle that the folks who were running Ronald Reagan put into place does make it more like Haiti everyday, like one of the earlier posts mentioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:26 AM

Oil is pushing $100 per barrel, gold $850 per ounce. That's in US dollars. The value of the dollar is plunging. 7 years ago you could buy a Euro Dollar with 80 cents, American. Today a Euro costs $1.47.

The value of the dollar is falling. This is deliberate. The Federal Reserve prints the money for the US. The Federal Reserve is running the printing presses non-stop in order to devalue the dollar. More money in circulation = less value for that money. That's why we're in Iraq--it's a money sink. The war is intended to bankrupt the U.S., same as Afghanistan overstretched the Soviets.

The problem in the US, and the world, is paper money. All major economies are now using paper money backed by nothing. The World Bank decides which countries to make strong and which to weaken by the printing of money.

Currently, the US is being manipulated into economic hard times by the overissuance of money. The global bankers think that by routing all industry out of the country and causing unemployment, then devaluing the dollar, then flooding the country will criminal illegals, then staging terrorism, pouring dollars into war, etc., the US will take the final step to becoming a total communist state. 53% of Americans now receive "significant income" from the government , while we're told we're "capitalist". The truth is that our pensions are being invested in scams like the sub-prime fiasco, and it is inevitable that all pensioners will wake up one day with NO pensions. Then the terrorist event will be blamed on some Christian organization (cutting off that means of support for millions, once Christian churches are put on the list of terrorist organizations), and without pensions and churches, with the dollar worth a nickle, Americans will have no choice but to turn to government for their daily bread. Of course, the new "environmentalists" will take the opportunity to seize the property of those who are in the soup lines, and the land will be made off limits to the new arch-villains--polluting humanoids.

The crash of the economy is happening before your eyes, but just slowly. Like painting a picture one stroke a day. The only way to stop it is to let it happen. Let the dollar sink to zero, then get rid of the federal officials who orchestarted the whole mess. Paper money is a means of control that the global bankers have been crafting for a long, long time, and this is their payoff. They're going to seize all private property in the U.S., then Europe, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:55 PM

Is there a new definition of "Third World Country?"
Mark, let us know when your book comes out. I'll look for on the NYT Best Seller list under fiction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:03 AM

The Republicans in American have their terrorists (and notice how the Democrats who were elected to stop the Republican madness have decided to go along with the Republicans), and the Democrats will soon terrorize with Environmentalism (notice how the Republicans are now supporting the fake global warming hysteria). Same party with a Dem and Rep hand tossing the ball back and forth.

Americans will soon be hammered with new environmental taxes. Federal regulations on building and adding to structures on personal property will be devised, and that will create a whole new bureaucracy. Tens of thousands of "inspectors" who will be "backed up" from day 1, so naturally there will be a building slowdown. Taxpayers will have to pay more for the privilege of not being to add on to their own property.

Farms will be deemed vital national infrastructure, so all you farmers better have a guest house ready for the Blackwater Homeland Security troop that'll be quartered there, to keep an eye on the terrorists wandering through the cornfields.

Islamofascism and Bioterrorism are the Republican and Democratic tools of control, respectively. No fiction about it. Bush now supports the Kyoto protocols, Pelosi/Clinton support the Iraq war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:43 AM

Mark:

While I don't depend (God no!) on Wikipedia, this is a decent summary:

The Household income in the United States is a measure of current private income commonly used by the United States government and private institutions. To measure the income of a household, the pre-tax money receipts of all residents over the age of 15 are combined. Most of these receipts are in the form of wages and salaries (before withholding and other taxes), but many other forms of income, such as unemployment insurance, disability, child support, etc., are included as well. The residents of the household do not have to be related to the householder for their earnings to be considered part of the household's income.[1] While the use of household income remains among the most widely accepted as households tend to share a common economic fate, the size of a household which is commonly not considered may off-set gains in household income.[2]

In 2006, the median annual household income according to the US Census Bureau was determined to be $48,201.[3] The median income per household member (including all working and non-working members above the age of 14) in the year 2006 was $26,036.[4] In the year 2005, there were approximately 113,146,000 households in the United States. 19.01% of all households had annual incomes exceeding $100,000,[5] 12.7% fell below the federal poverty threshold[6] and the bottom 20% earned less than $23,202.[7] The aggregate income distribution is highly concentrated towards the top, with the top 6.37% earning roughly one third of all income, and those with upper-middle incomes control a large, though declining, share of the total earned income.[8][2] Income inequality in the United States, which had decreased slowly after World War II until 1970, began to increase slowly in the 1970's, and has increased more quickly since then.[9] Households in the top quintile, 77% of which had two income earners, had incomes exceeding $91,705. Households in the mid quintile, with a mean of one income earner per household had incomes between $36,000 and 57,657.[10]

The 2006 economic survey also found that households in the top two income quintiles, those with an annual household income exceeding $60,000, had a median of two income earners while those in the lower quintiles (2nd and middle quintile) had median of only one income earner per household. Due to high unemployment among those in the lowest quintile the median number of income earners for this particular group was determined to be zero.[5] Overall the United States followed the trend of other developed nations with a relatively large population of relatively affluent households outnumbering the poor. Among those in-between the relative extremes of the income strata a large and quite powerful section of households with moderately high middle class incomes[8] and an even larger number of households with moderately low incomes.[5] While the median household income has increased 44% since 1990 it has increased only slightly when considering inflation. In 1990, the median household income was determined to be $30,056; $44,603 in 2003 dollars. While personal income has remained relatively stagnant over the past few decades, household income has risen due to the rising percentage of households with two or more income earners. Between 1999 and 2004 household income stagnated showing a slight increase since 2004.[11][12]


(You can look up the original yourself if you're interested.)

However...the study was done before the "sub-prime" crisis. You might want to peek at one of reports from Bloomberg.

The need for two or more income earners for household income to rise is, or should be, troubling. Even more troubling should be the last line in the quote above.

If I had both the time and inclination I'd do a study of personal and household incomes in a constant dollar scenario (using, say, 1980 dollars as the base) and see what happens. I don't have either, sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:49 AM

We had our money in our homes which are now worth about 20% less on top of the 38% drop in the dollar since 2001. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is some pretty slick thievery if you ask me.

Let the banks buy them up at 50 cents on the dollar and resell them for a 50% mark up within 5 years and the rip off cycle will be complete.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:41 PM

Mark

and the democrats have now leaned so far to the left that they are now to the right of Barry Goldwater Republicanism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:10 PM

How about--for the moment, at least--ditching all the old terms like inflation, recession, depression and the like, and looking at a larger picture? An successful economy, ultimately, is one that achieves a balance between what it exports and what it imports. The US has been losing manufacturing, fishing and a lot of farming; our exports are becoming more heavily tipped towards raw materials (which won't last forever) and away from manufactured products (which add value to the raw materials they consume).
    I find it very difficult to feel that this is a healthy direction--regardless of how the Dow is doing. A country really can't survive solely by providing services to its own population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:30 PM

This is both a parable and a true story.

Back in the 1980s library automation was starting to take off. There were many start-up companies: DRA, LIBS2000, Dataphase, Dynix, Sirsi, NOTIS, CLSI, VTLS, and others. Libraries of all sorts who could afford it (by means of bond issues, levy increases, grants, or however) automated.

Gradually, libraries have become more and more sophisticated regarding computers -- and the number of companies has shrunk. Dynix was bought by Ameritech, who also bought NOTIS; Ameritech dropped the library automation business, and the company became Epixtech, then changed its name back to Dynix, and was purchased by Sirsi (who had in the meantime acquired DRA) and is now called SirsiDynix.

Basically, what happened was that the market became saturated: everyone who could afford to automate has done so and there are no new libraries coming along. To move a customer from one product of a company to another (for example, from Dynix to Unicorn in the SirsiDynix example would be doing just that) is not a new customer: it's incest. The only way to get a new customer is to have someone leave one system and move to a completely different company.

Seems to me that the US is doing much the same sort of thing: flooding the market with goods made elsewhere from raw materials created in the US. More, we are not getting ALL of the raw materials back -- some goes to other countries.

It reminds me of Heinlein's "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress": shipping raw materials one way, even as a finished product, just isn't the best long-term economic policy.

Library automation vendors are about to find it out, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:12 PM

"A country really can't survive solely by providing services to its own population."


                That's something that has always puzzled me too. I'm amazed that the whole thing didn't fall flat on its face a long time ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:17 PM

Only in the most smallest sense. It would be a closed system, with no new influx of money or ideas. The cobbler buys the leather from the slaughterer and makes shoes to sell to the butcher who bought the meat from the slaughterer and sold it to the cobbler.

But there is no new infusion of anything and eventually the system will decay, from entropy if nothing else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Homey
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:31 AM

"In only 15 years, from 1992 to 2007, the US balance of trade deficit has surged from $84 billion to $700 billion."

I assume the majority of that flows to China.

"So it's $1.4 trillion in US treasury bonds ... As the US currency loses value, the Chinese lose the value of their investment in America's future. So the question is, will they dump their US money to cut their losses?"

So the Chinese will dump their US bonds and wreck the US economy so the US people will no longer be able to buy their goods which will cancel that flow of money to China?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:09 AM

China has already dumped about USD120,000,000 in a "diversification" action intended to give more stability to the yuan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: MaineDog
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 11:19 AM

BLATHER


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 10:43 AM

I wonder what will happen if it crashes before the election is over?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:05 AM

An economy needs an engine.

At first the US had the engine of slavery and and a cotton industry along with light manufacturing and raw materials.

The engine was fueled by expansion like the Louisiana purchase and theft of land my murdering Indians and Mexicans.

The Civil War engine turned on heavy manufacturing.

We have lost our manufacturing.

we had a computer boom for an engine.

We are now losing our high tech manufacturing.

A series of wars have been the engine the US has relied upon for over 100 years.

The most recent engine for the economy was the low interest rate speculation on homes and the sale of bundled mortgages investement instruments called derivitives which were bought by municipalities hedge funds and world wide.
The derivitives went bust. The losses are called write offs by Banks that owned these crooked derivitives.
Towns and Counties across the US have lost their shirts on these derivitive purchases and lost taxes as people lose their homes.








The USA now needs a new engine which seems to be POLICE STATE SECURITY SYSTEMS INC. not a good sign. however you an now buy a tazer in leopard skin high fashion and sell almost any high ticket hair brained scheme to Homeland Security.

Corporatism continues to push to privatize everything in the country from the Presidency and everthing else that was once considered to be shared federal resources. Shit even the Statue of Liberty is privatized when you are able to see that private contractors really run the whole show in this new system of Milton Friedman extreme capitalism

My idea for the econmomic engine that would pay the best benefits is new energy development and hug investment in solar and othe viable alternatives.   Big Oil would rather block these efforts and milk this country for its last dime.

We need an engine. If your car doesn't have one its just a 2 ton couch.
Multinational corporations and Wall street have put their money elsewhere and at a time of disasters and a desperate need for an infrastructure we spent all our BORROWED money paying private contractors for a war in Iraq that was suppose to end with our stealing the oil...but we lost.

What are we going to do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:59 PM

The word on Wall Street is that when the market hits 1200 the really big boys are not even going to try to artificially walk the market up anymore and a freefall where everybody is on their own will ensue.

A big push to invest overseas is underway.

The R word is now openly used and is predicted to last about 2 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:14 PM

i a freefall where everybody is on their own will ensue.


aka 'a society'.

Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:25 AM

When the market hits 12000 many investors will bail. With such low prices you would think a buying spree would bring it back up but the big bank investors will hold on to their cash. It could go even lower.


The mortgage crises will stay in limbo until a new administration is in place. When the BIG Banks determine that they have gotton all the bail outs and welfare they are going to get (not much from a Democratic Congress) they will become flexible with the tidal wave of forclosures since they do not want to kill their host - parasites that they are. Housing prices will have to drop 20% Worst case scenario is a 40% drop but rare overall (banks hope its only 10%-15% drop) but some banks are not budging and probably won't budge for another 2 years.






If you need a job that will be very busy I suggest you position yourself in servicing forclosures.

such as legal, police, storage or some other creative way to supply temporary housing.

I feel sorry for folks who borrowed on a ficticious value of their home. 2nd mortagages based on ridiculous values are in the same boat as new buyers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:36 AM

Autioneers will probably be doing well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,G.I. Joe
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:11 AM

Interesting to read this thread from the beginning. We are now there. In New England the paper lists foreclosures every day. the price of heating oil is over $3 a gal. Some people are buying desell oil 5 gal. at a time at a gas station and using it in their oil burners. Oil delivery people will not deliver less than 100 gal. at a time figure $325.00 and it is cash only. depending on the temp. an oil burner can use 10 gal. a day.... So they light the gas stove and open the oven door the keep the place warm....

In sone parts the main problen is food and disease so no mater what ever is done entire areas will be barren soil stripped, no water to plant crops.. etc. etc.   As we said in the service "Look out for Number 1"    Sorry but I dont see any other way out.....
Any one have Ideas????


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:30 PM

The poor will adapt or die trying, the rich are counting on it.
The rich don't need to adapt, except to defend their property with more extreme measures.

The green revolution people are finding ways to sustain large populations without the problems of sewer systems and electric grid.

25 ft Underground heat pumps can work even in Maine to heat homes while the heat pump motor is driven by solar and wind and batteries. Also simple innovations regarding self sustaining crops, horticulural techniques that even work in the desert and all the pot you can cook,,, all without shooting each other.

America will have a new bloom of Shanty Towns before things get better and all the people who pick up and move their family where they won't freeze.

Mexico is looking great to many ex pat Americans who retire in Mexico with a million dollars and live like billionaires but without local health care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:46 PM

Local health care in Mexico was inexpensive and very competent when I was there. In Guadalajara, a large city.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: autolycus
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:23 AM

Americans retire to Mexico?

Can I believe what I read from across the pond.

Can that be true?

What's going on?


Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 06:38 AM

Yeah, it's the in thing to do. They can live a lot cheaper down there, so they take their money--social security or whatever--and run. It's a big boost to the Mexican economy, and a big drag on the American economy.

                      It'd be interesting to know how many military retirees--people who claim to be partiots--are taking their military retirement to Mexico.

                      This is a situation that is compounded hugely by inane civilian leadership which continues to run around the world and start wars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:14 AM

Heh... I just now saw Kent Davis' interesting little straw man argument for the first time in his 14 Nov 07 - 12:36 AM post.

Mr. Davis, most Third World countries don't fit the description in your post. Your post is a straw man argument because you are using a definition of 'Third World country' that you have created in your own mind, and you are saying that since the US doesn't fit your description, it therefore cannot be a Third World country.

One of the criteria for Third World status is dependence upon exportation of primary products to other countries in return for finished products. Since we have almost no manufacturing base, and since most of the products we buy are manufactured in other countries, I'd say we certainly fit that criteria. Another criteria is the degree of disparity between rich and poor. As I said in the post that you quoted, we are behind India on that criteria. India is regarded as a Third World country. So we certainly fit that criteria as well.

Another attribute that is common with Third World countries is enormous debt. When a massive amount of a country's GDP is devoted to servicing its debt, that country is generally to be found in the Third World.

The main difference between most Third World countries and the US is that they are still developing, while we are in decline.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:27 AM

Maybe that's why visionaries like Fred Thompson and Mike Huckabee are suddenly talking about "change."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:51 AM

WHew it sounded bad.... but George W Bush said just yesterday that he is absolutely optimistic about the economy.

absolutely optimistic. ( I hear life is just a bowl of cherries)

What will Berneke do today in the wake of other world wide Recession predictions?
I say
Lower interest rates. (
this is what caused the housing bubble compounded by approving every mortgage for a commision)
If he does it too much he is only fueling a bubble to double in size and pop a few months later.

folks, gold is going to go up again. and people will start backing away from the market.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:31 PM

Today Bernanke said he would do "whatever it takes" to keep the US out of a recession. Paul Volcker would not do that for Jimmy Carter, and sent the US and the entire world into an economic tail spin.
                      International banking cartels did really well with Volcker at the helm, why do they want to pull it out this time?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: autolycus
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:28 AM

The thing to do is for Americans to retire to Mexico?

But surely there's only one place for them to retire to.

Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 12:33 PM

Anyway, everything is all right now; the Bank of America is buying out Countrywide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 12:19 PM

Look out!!! The sky is falling. - DougR, 10 August 2007.

Interesting to read in the Economist that the Chinese economy could still grow at better than eight per cent without selling into the US market. Anyone who still doubts that this is Asia's century is living in cloud cuckoo land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 12:45 PM

I wonder what they'll do for water?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Kent Davis
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 12:21 AM

CaroleC,

You said that, in my November 14, I was "using a definition of 'Third World country' that [I] have created in [my]own mind..." That was certainly not my intention. I was using the term "Third World" to refer to countries such as Bolivia, Kenya, Guinea, and Cambodia. Obviously I need to learn a new definition. Where did you find yours?   
I have learned so much from your posts. You mentioned that "One of the criteria for Third World status is dependence upon exportation of primary products to other countries in return for finished products." That would be countries like Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates, wouldn't it?
You also mentioned, "Another criteria is the degree of disparity between rich and poor." I never knew it was the degree of DISPARITY that made the difference! I always thought it was the degree of POVERTY! In your June 17 post you said, "We are supposedly the wealthiest nation on the earth and we're two categories behind India when it comes to equitable distribution of wealth. We have become a Third World nation."   
I looked back at the graphic you referred to then. Imagine my surprise when I saw that Canada and Ethiopia are in the same category when it comes to equitable distribution of wealth. Does this mean that Ethiopia is a "First World" country? Or is Canada a "Third World" country? Then I noticed that Rwanda and Uzbekistan are in the same category as Germany and Sweden. Their wealth is distributed MORE equitably Ireland's, the UK's, Switzerland's, or Italy's. So is Rwanda a "First World" country? Is Switzerland a "Third World" country?
Also you mentioned, "Another attribute that is common with Third World countries is enormous debt. When a massive amount of a country's GDP is devoted to servicing its debt, that country is generally to be found in the Third World." The U.S. Federal Public Debt, as a percentage of GNP, is currently about what it was in the early 1940s, the middle 1950s, the early 1990s, and the late 1990s. It was much lower in the early thirties, the late 60s, and the early 70s. So, if I understand you correctly, the U.S. was a "First World" country before the New Deal started, and also during the Nixon-Ford years, but has been a "Third World" country since about 1993. Is that it?
Thank you so much for your help.   

Kent


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 02:20 AM

Interesting post, Kent. Let me reflect on it a bit before I answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:02 AM

"...the U.S. was a "First World" country before the New Deal started, and also during the Nixon-Ford years, but has been a "Third World" country since about 1993. Is that it?..."

                  Actually, the US was a first world country right up to the point that Ronald Reagan submitted his first budget to Congress, it begain the slide to third world status shortly after that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,ALCAN1
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:26 AM

None of you people know US economic history. Here is an overview of it and where we are headed.

Before the US House of Representatives, February 15, 2006

A hundred years ago it was called "dollar diplomacy." After World War II, and especially after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989, that policy evolved into "dollar hegemony." But after all these many years of great success, our dollar dominance is coming to an end.

It has been said, rightly, that he who holds the gold makes the rules. In earlier times it was readily accepted that fair and honest trade required an exchange for something of real value.

First it was simply barter of goods. Then it was discovered that gold held a universal attraction, and was a convenient substitute for more cumbersome barter transactions. Not only did gold facilitate exchange of goods and services, it served as a store of value for those who wanted to save for a rainy day.

Though money developed naturally in the marketplace, as governments grew in power they assumed monopoly control over money. Sometimes governments succeeded in guaranteeing the quality and purity of gold, but in time governments learned to outspend their revenues. New or higher taxes always incurred the disapproval of the people, so it wasn't long before Kings and Caesars learned how to inflate their currencies by reducing the amount of gold in each coin – always hoping their subjects wouldn't discover the fraud. But the people always did, and they strenuously objected.

This helped pressure leaders to seek more gold by conquering other nations. The people became accustomed to living beyond their means, and enjoyed the circuses and bread. Financing extravagances by conquering foreign lands seemed a logical alternative to working harder and producing more. Besides, conquering nations not only brought home gold, they brought home slaves as well. Taxing the people in conquered territories also provided an incentive to build empires. This system of government worked well for a while, but the moral decline of the people led to an unwillingness to produce for themselves. There was a limit to the number of countries that could be sacked for their wealth, and this always brought empires to an end. When gold no longer could be obtained, their military might crumbled. In those days those who held the gold truly wrote the rules and lived well.

That general rule has held fast throughout the ages. When gold was used, and the rules protected honest commerce, productive nations thrived. Whenever wealthy nations – those with powerful armies and gold – strived only for empire and easy fortunes to support welfare at home, those nations failed.

Today the principles are the same, but the process is quite different. Gold no longer is the currency of the realm; paper is. The truth now is: "He who prints the money makes the rules" – at least for the time being. Although gold is not used, the goals are the same: compel foreign countries to produce and subsidize the country with military superiority and control over the monetary printing presses.

Since printing paper money is nothing short of counterfeiting, the issuer of the international currency must always be the country with the military might to guarantee control over the system. This magnificent scheme seems the perfect system for obtaining perpetual wealth for the country that issues the de facto world currency. The one problem, however, is that such a system destroys the character of the counterfeiting nation's people – just as was the case when gold was the currency and it was obtained by conquering other nations. And this destroys the incentive to save and produce, while encouraging debt and runaway welfare.

The pressure at home to inflate the currency comes from the corporate welfare recipients, as well as those who demand handouts as compensation for their needs and perceived injuries by others. In both cases personal responsibility for one's actions is rejected.

When paper money is rejected, or when gold runs out, wealth and political stability are lost. The country then must go from living beyond its means to living beneath its means, until the economic and political systems adjust to the new rules – rules no longer written by those who ran the now defunct printing press.

"Dollar Diplomacy," a policy instituted by William Howard Taft and his Secretary of State Philander C. Knox, was designed to enhance U.S. commercial investments in Latin America and the Far East. McKinley concocted a war against Spain in 1898, and (Teddy) Roosevelt's corollary to the Monroe Doctrine preceded Taft's aggressive approach to using the U.S. dollar and diplomatic influence to secure U.S. investments abroad. This earned the popular title of "Dollar Diplomacy." The significance of Roosevelt's change was that our intervention now could be justified by the mere "appearance" that a country of interest to us was politically or fiscally vulnerable to European control. Not only did we claim a right, but even an official U.S. government "obligation" to protect our commercial interests from Europeans.

This new policy came on the heels of the "gunboat" diplomacy of the late 19th century, and it meant we could buy influence before resorting to the threat of force. By the time the "dollar diplomacy" of William Howard Taft was clearly articulated, the seeds of American empire were planted. And they were destined to grow in the fertile political soil of a country that lost its love and respect for the republic bequeathed to us by the authors of the Constitution. And indeed they did. It wasn't too long before dollar "diplomacy" became dollar "hegemony" in the second half of the 20th century.

This transition only could have occurred with a dramatic change in monetary policy and the nature of the dollar itself.

Congress created the Federal Reserve System in 1913. Between then and 1971 the principle of sound money was systematically undermined. Between 1913 and 1971, the Federal Reserve found it much easier to expand the money supply at will for financing war or manipulating the economy with little resistance from Congress – while benefiting the special interests that influence government.

Dollar dominance got a huge boost after World War II. We were spared the destruction that so many other nations suffered, and our coffers were filled with the world's gold. But the world chose not to return to the discipline of the gold standard, and the politicians applauded. Printing money to pay the bills was a lot more popular than taxing or restraining unnecessary spending. In spite of the short-term benefits, imbalances were institutionalized for decades to come.

The 1944 Bretton Woods agreement solidified the dollar as the preeminent world reserve currency, replacing the British pound. Due to our political and military muscle, and because we had a huge amount of physical gold, the world readily accepted our dollar (defined as 1/35th of an ounce of gold) as the world's reserve currency. The dollar was said to be "as good as gold," and convertible to all foreign central banks at that rate. For American citizens, however, it remained illegal to own. This was a gold-exchange standard that from inception was doomed to fail.

The U.S. did exactly what many predicted she would do. She printed more dollars for which there was no gold backing. But the world was content to accept those dollars for more than 25 years with little question – until the French and others in the late 1960s demanded we fulfill our promise to pay one ounce of gold for each $35 they delivered to the U.S. Treasury. This resulted in a huge gold drain that brought an end to a very poorly devised pseudo-gold standard.

It all ended on August 15, 1971, when Nixon closed the gold window and refused to pay out any of our remaining 280 million ounces of gold. In essence, we declared our insolvency and everyone recognized some other monetary system had to be devised in order to bring stability to the markets.

Amazingly, a new system was devised which allowed the U.S. to operate the printing presses for the world reserve currency with no restraints placed on it – not even a pretense of gold convertibility, none whatsoever! Though the new policy was even more deeply flawed, it nevertheless opened the door for dollar hegemony to spread.

Realizing the world was embarking on something new and mind-boggling, elite money managers, with especially strong support from U.S. authorities, struck an agreement with OPEC to price oil in U.S. dollars exclusively for all worldwide transactions. This gave the dollar a special place among world currencies and in essence "backed" the dollar with oil. In return, the U.S. promised to protect the various oil-rich kingdoms in the Persian Gulf against threat of invasion or domestic coup. This arrangement helped ignite the radical Islamic movement among those who resented our influence in the region. The arrangement gave the dollar artificial strength, with tremendous financial benefits for the United States. It allowed us to export our monetary inflation by buying oil and other goods at a great discount as dollar influence flourished.

This post-Bretton Woods system was much more fragile than the system that existed between 1945 and 1971. Though the dollar/oil arrangement was helpful, it was not nearly as stable as the pseudo–gold standard under Bretton Woods. It certainly was less stable than the gold standard of the late 19th century.

During the 1970s the dollar nearly collapsed, as oil prices surged and gold skyrocketed to $800 an ounce. By 1979 interest rates of 21% were required to rescue the system. The pressure on the dollar in the 1970s, in spite of the benefits accrued to it, reflected reckless budget deficits and monetary inflation during the 1960s. The markets were not fooled by LBJ's claim that we could afford both "guns and butter."

Once again the dollar was rescued, and this ushered in the age of true dollar hegemony lasting from the early 1980s to the present. With tremendous cooperation coming from the central banks and international commercial banks, the dollar was accepted as if it were gold.

Fed Chair Alan Greenspan, on several occasions before the House Banking Committee, answered my challenges to him about his previously held favorable views on gold by claiming that he and other central bankers had gotten paper money – i.e. the dollar system – to respond as if it were gold. Each time I strongly disagreed, and pointed out that if they had achieved such a feat they would have defied centuries of economic history regarding the need for money to be something of real value. He smugly and confidently concurred with this.

In recent years central banks and various financial institutions, all with vested interests in maintaining a workable fiat dollar standard, were not secretive about selling and loaning large amounts of gold to the market even while decreasing gold prices raised serious questions about the wisdom of such a policy. They never admitted to gold price fixing, but the evidence is abundant that they believed if the gold price fell it would convey a sense of confidence to the market, confidence that they indeed had achieved amazing success in turning paper into gold.

Increasing gold prices historically are viewed as an indicator of distrust in paper currency. This recent effort was not a whole lot different than the U.S. Treasury selling gold at $35 an ounce in the 1960s, in an attempt to convince the world the dollar was sound and as good as gold. Even during the Depression, one of Roosevelt's first acts was to remove free market gold pricing as an indication of a flawed monetary system by making it illegal for American citizens to own gold. Economic law eventually limited that effort, as it did in the early 1970s when our Treasury and the IMF tried to fix the price of gold by dumping tons into the market to dampen the enthusiasm of those seeking a safe haven for a falling dollar after gold ownership was re-legalized.

Once again the effort between 1980 and 2000 to fool the market as to the true value of the dollar proved unsuccessful. In the past 5 years the dollar has been devalued in terms of gold by more than 50%. You just can't fool all the people all the time, even with the power of the mighty printing press and money creating system of the Federal Reserve.

Even with all the shortcomings of the fiat monetary system, dollar influence thrived. The results seemed beneficial, but gross distortions built into the system remained. And true to form, Washington politicians are only too anxious to solve the problems cropping up with window dressing, while failing to understand and deal with the underlying flawed policy. Protectionism, fixing exchange rates, punitive tariffs, politically motivated sanctions, corporate subsidies, international trade management, price controls, interest rate and wage controls, super-nationalist sentiments, threats of force, and even war are resorted to – all to solve the problems artificially created by deeply flawed monetary and economic systems.

In the short run, the issuer of a fiat reserve currency can accrue great economic benefits. In the long run, it poses a threat to the country issuing the world currency. In this case that's the United States. As long as foreign countries take our dollars in return for real goods, we come out ahead. This is a benefit many in Congress fail to recognize, as they bash China for maintaining a positive trade balance with us. But this leads to a loss of manufacturing jobs to overseas markets, as we become more dependent on others and less self-sufficient. Foreign countries accumulate our dollars due to their high savings rates, and graciously loan them back to us at low interest rates to finance our excessive consumption.

It sounds like a great deal for everyone, except the time will come when our dollars – due to their depreciation – will be received less enthusiastically or even be rejected by foreign countries. That could create a whole new ballgame and force us to pay a price for living beyond our means and our production. The shift in sentiment regarding the dollar has already started, but the worst is yet to come.

The agreement with OPEC in the 1970s to price oil in dollars has provided tremendous artificial strength to the dollar as the preeminent reserve currency. This has created a universal demand for the dollar, and soaks up the huge number of new dollars generated each year. Last year alone M3 increased over $700 billion.

The artificial demand for our dollar, along with our military might, places us in the unique position to "rule" the world without productive work or savings, and without limits on consumer spending or deficits. The problem is, it can't last.

Price inflation is raising its ugly head, and the NASDAQ bubble – generated by easy money – has burst. The housing bubble likewise created is deflating. Gold prices have doubled, and federal spending is out of sight with zero political will to rein it in. The trade deficit last year was over $728 billion. A $2 trillion war is raging, and plans are being laid to expand the war into Iran and possibly Syria. The only restraining force will be the world's rejection of the dollar. It's bound to come and create conditions worse than 1979–1980, which required 21% interest rates to correct. But everything possible will be done to protect the dollar in the meantime. We have a shared interest with those who hold our dollars to keep the whole charade going.

Greenspan, in his first speech after leaving the Fed, said that gold prices were up because of concern about terrorism, and not because of monetary concerns or because he created too many dollars during his tenure. Gold has to be discredited and the dollar propped up. Even when the dollar comes under serious attack by market forces, the central banks and the IMF surely will do everything conceivable to soak up the dollars in hope of restoring stability. Eventually they will fail.

Most importantly, the dollar/oil relationship has to be maintained to keep the dollar as a preeminent currency. Any attack on this relationship will be forcefully challenged – as it already has been.

In November 2000 Saddam Hussein demanded Euros for his oil. His arrogance was a threat to the dollar; his lack of any military might was never a threat. At the first cabinet meeting with the new administration in 2001, as reported by Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, the major topic was how we would get rid of Saddam Hussein – though there was no evidence whatsoever he posed a threat to us. This deep concern for Saddam Hussein surprised and shocked O'Neill.

It now is common knowledge that the immediate reaction of the administration after 9/11 revolved around how they could connect Saddam Hussein to the attacks, to justify an invasion and overthrow of his government. Even with no evidence of any connection to 9/11, or evidence of weapons of mass destruction, public and congressional support was generated through distortions and flat out misrepresentation of the facts to justify overthrowing Saddam Hussein.

There was no public talk of removing Saddam Hussein because of his attack on the integrity of the dollar as a reserve currency by selling oil in Euros. Many believe this was the real reason for our obsession with Iraq. I doubt it was the only reason, but it may well have played a significant role in our motivation to wage war. Within a very short period after the military victory, all Iraqi oil sales were carried out in dollars. The Euro was abandoned.

In 2001, Venezuela's ambassador to Russia spoke of Venezuela switching to the Euro for all their oil sales. Within a year there was a coup attempt against Chavez, reportedly with assistance from our CIA.

After these attempts to nudge the Euro toward replacing the dollar as the world's reserve currency were met with resistance, the sharp fall of the dollar against the Euro was reversed. These events may well have played a significant role in maintaining dollar dominance.

It's become clear the U.S. administration was sympathetic to those who plotted the overthrow of Chavez, and was embarrassed by its failure. The fact that Chavez was democratically elected had little influence on which side we supported.

Now, a new attempt is being made against the petrodollar system. Iran, another member of the "axis of evil," has announced her plans to initiate an oil bourse in March of this year. Guess what, the oil sales will be priced Euros, not dollars.

Most Americans forget how our policies have systematically and needlessly antagonized the Iranians over the years. In 1953 the CIA helped overthrow a democratically elected president, Mohammed Mossadeqh, and install the authoritarian Shah, who was friendly to the U.S. The Iranians were still fuming over this when the hostages were seized in 1979. Our alliance with Saddam Hussein in his invasion of Iran in the early 1980s did not help matters, and obviously did not do much for our relationship with Saddam Hussein. The administration announcement in 2001 that Iran was part of the axis of evil didn't do much to improve the diplomatic relationship between our two countries. Recent threats over nuclear power, while ignoring the fact that they are surrounded by countries with nuclear weapons, doesn't seem to register with those who continue to provoke Iran. With what most Muslims perceive as our war against Islam, and this recent history, there's little wonder why Iran might choose to harm America by undermining the dollar. Iran, like Iraq, has zero capability to attack us. But that didn't stop us from turning Saddam Hussein into a modern day Hitler ready to take over the world. Now Iran, especially since she's made plans for pricing oil in Euros, has been on the receiving end of a propaganda war not unlike that waged against Iraq before our invasion.

It's not likely that maintaining dollar supremacy was the only motivating factor for the war against Iraq, nor for agitating against Iran. Though the real reasons for going to war are complex, we now know the reasons given before the war started, like the presence of weapons of mass destruction and Saddam Hussein's connection to 9/11, were false. The dollar's importance is obvious, but this does not diminish the influence of the distinct plans laid out years ago by the neo-conservatives to remake the Middle East. Israel's influence, as well as that of the Christian Zionists, likewise played a role in prosecuting this war. Protecting "our" oil supplies has influenced our Middle East policy for decades.

But the truth is that paying the bills for this aggressive intervention is impossible the old-fashioned way, with more taxes, more savings, and more production by the American people. Much of the expense of the Persian Gulf War in 1991 was shouldered by many of our willing allies. That's not so today. Now, more than ever, the dollar hegemony – it's dominance as the world reserve currency – is required to finance our huge war expenditures. This $2 trillion never-ending war must be paid for, one way or another. Dollar hegemony provides the vehicle to do just that.

For the most part the true victims aren't aware of how they pay the bills. The license to create money out of thin air allows the bills to be paid through price inflation. American citizens, as well as average citizens of Japan, China, and other countries suffer from price inflation, which represents the "tax" that pays the bills for our military adventures. That is, until the fraud is discovered, and the foreign producers decide not to take dollars nor hold them very long in payment for their goods. Everything possible is done to prevent the fraud of the monetary system from being exposed to the masses who suffer from it. If oil markets replace dollars with Euros, it would in time curtail our ability to continue to print, without restraint, the world's reserve currency.

It is an unbelievable benefit to us to import valuable goods and export depreciating dollars. The exporting countries have become addicted to our purchases for their economic growth. This dependency makes them allies in continuing the fraud, and their participation keeps the dollar's value artificially high. If this system were workable long term, American citizens would never have to work again. We too could enjoy "bread and circuses" just as the Romans did, but their gold finally ran out and the inability of Rome to continue to plunder conquered nations brought an end to her empire.

The same thing will happen to us if we don't change our ways. Though we don't occupy foreign countries to directly plunder, we nevertheless have spread our troops across 130 nations of the world. Our intense effort to spread our power in the oil-rich Middle East is not a coincidence. But unlike the old days, we don't declare direct ownership of the natural resources – we just insist that we can buy what we want and pay for it with our paper money. Any country that challenges our authority does so at great risk.

Once again Congress has bought into the war propaganda against Iran, just as it did against Iraq. Arguments are now made for attacking Iran economically, and militarily if necessary. These arguments are all based on the same false reasons given for the ill-fated and costly occupation of Iraq.

Our whole economic system depends on continuing the current monetary arrangement, which means recycling the dollar is crucial. Currently, we borrow over $700 billion every year from our gracious benefactors, who work hard and take our paper for their goods. Then we borrow all the money we need to secure the empire (DOD budget $450 billion) plus more. The military might we enjoy becomes the "backing" of our currency. There are no other countries that can challenge our military superiority, and therefore they have little choice but to accept the dollars we declare are today's "gold." This is why countries that challenge the system – like Iraq, Iran and Venezuela – become targets of our plans for regime change.

Ironically, dollar superiority depends on our strong military, and our strong military depends on the dollar. As long as foreign recipients take our dollars for real goods and are willing to finance our extravagant consumption and militarism, the status quo will continue regardless of how huge our foreign debt and current account deficit become.

But real threats come from our political adversaries who are incapable of confronting us militarily, yet are not bashful about confronting us economically. That's why we see the new challenge from Iran being taken so seriously. The urgent arguments about Iran posing a military threat to the security of the United States are no more plausible than the false charges levied against Iraq. Yet there is no effort to resist this march to confrontation by those who grandstand for political reasons against the Iraq war.

It seems that the people and Congress are easily persuaded by the jingoism of the preemptive war promoters. It's only after the cost in human life and dollars are tallied up that the people object to unwise militarism.

The strange thing is that the failure in Iraq is now apparent to a large majority of American people, yet they and Congress are acquiescing to the call for a needless and dangerous confrontation with Iran.

But then again, our failure to find Osama bin Laden and destroy his network did not dissuade us from taking on the Iraqis in a war totally unrelated to 9/11.

Concern for pricing oil only in dollars helps explain our willingness to drop everything and teach Saddam Hussein a lesson for his defiance in demanding Euros for oil.

And once again there's this urgent call for sanctions and threats of force against Iran at the precise time Iran is opening a new oil exchange with all transactions in Euros.

Using force to compel people to accept money without real value can only work in the short run. It ultimately leads to economic dislocation, both domestic and international, and always ends with a price to be paid.

The economic law that honest exchange demands only things of real value as currency cannot be repealed. The chaos that one day will ensue from our 35-year experiment with worldwide fiat money will require a return to money of real value. We will know that day is approaching when oil-producing countries demand gold, or its equivalent, for their oil rather than dollars or Euros. The sooner the better.

February 17, 2006


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:23 AM

Well that sounds like Ron Paul. But in the debates, the other candidates laugh at him every time he opens his mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:41 AM

Yup. Ron Paul it is...

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr021506.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:19 PM

I sus pect that the Crash of the Economy of the United States is something like Mark Twain's obituary published prematurely, about which he said "The reports of my death are greatly exagerrated".


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:32 PM

Yeah! On the other hand, he did say prematurely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 05:15 PM

Lou Dobbs (CNN) speaks out:

NEW YORK (CNN) -- President Bush's assurances that we'll all be "just fine" if he and Congress can work out an economic stimulus package seem a little hollow this morning.

Much like Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke's assurances last May that the subprime mortgage meltdown would be contained and not affect the broader economy. And it seems Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson has spent most of the past year trying to influence Chinese economic policy rather than setting the direction of U.S. economic policy.

There is no question that Bush, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid will quickly come up with an economic stimulus package simply because they can no longer ignore our economic and financial crisis. That economic stimulus plan will amount to about 1 percent of our nation's gross domestic product, an estimated $150 billion.

But all of us should recognize that the stimulus package will be inadequate to drive sustainable growth in our $13 trillion economy. An emergency Fed rate cut and an economic stimulus plan are short-term responses to our complex economic problems, nothing more than bandages for a hemorrhaging economy.

Bush, Pelosi, Reid and the presidential candidates of both parties have an opportunity now, and I believe an obligation, to adjust the public policy mistakes of the past quarter-century that have led to this crisis. And only through courageous policy decisions will we be able to steer this nation's economy away from the brink of outright disaster....


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 05:38 PM

It looks to me like Lou Dobbs is right again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 06:23 PM

I heard on NPR today the EU has issued a staement that blames Bush's fiscal policies on the fiscal crisis the world now faces... Too much spending and not enough paying...

Hmmmmmmm???? Sound familiar??? Rememeber Ronnie Ray-gun???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 06:35 PM

It sounds very familiar, and a little bit scary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 07:44 PM

The politics of an economic nightmare
No U.S. leader wants to admit how bad the damage may get from the one-
two punch of the credit crunch and housing slump.

By Robert B. Reich (In Salon)
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/01/23/reich_economy/print.html

Jan. 23, 2008 | A possible economic meltdown is worrisome enough, but
a possible meltdown in an election year is downright frightening. For
months now, Republicans have been pushing the White House to take some
action that looked and sounded big enough to give them some cover if
and when things got worse. President Bush has now responded with a
stimulus package more than twice as large as the one Bill Clinton
briefly entertained at the start of 1993 but couldn't get passed.

Not to be outdone, Democrats want to appear at least as bold, which
means they'll suspend pay-go rules and throw fiscal responsibility out
the window. In other words, hold your noses, because the "bipartisan"
stimulus package that's about to be introduced could be a real
stinker, including tax cuts for everyone and everything under the sun
-- except, perhaps, for the key group of lower-income Americans. These
are the people who don't earn enough to pay much if any income taxes,
but who are the most likely to spend whatever extra money they get and
therefore are most likely to stimulate the economy. The real behind-
the-scenes battle will be over whose constituencies get what tax cuts,
and for how long. Don't be surprised if the only thing Congress really
stimulates is campaign contributions. ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 07:58 PM

I wonder if they'll provide us with another terrorist attack on US soil to take our minds off the economy going all to shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 08:00 PM

I don't know, but Robert Reich is one of those guys who usually gets things right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Kent Davis
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:30 PM

CaroleC and others,

I've been thinking about the characteristics of "Third World" countries listed in CaroleC's post of January 10, namely:
1. Dependence upon exportation of primary products to other countries in return for finished products,
2. Disparity between rich and poor, and
3. Enormous debt.

I'm wondering if those three are common characteristics of "third World" countries, but not DEFINING characteristics. In my profession, we have noticed that obesity is a common characteristic of diabetics. However, obesity is not a DEFINING characteristic of diabetes. Most obese people are not diabetic and many diabetic people are not obese.
It would be, shall we say, unhelpful, if I were to begin telling all my obese patients, "You are diabetic". It would be unhelpful in the extreme if were to tell all my non-obese patients that they are therefore not diabetic.
It is the simple truth to say that the U.S. economy has some characteristics more commonly associated with "Third World" than with "First World" status. It is equally true to say that some aspects of our economy are precarious. To say that the U.S. is now a "Third World" country, or to say that our economy has already collapsed is, well, let's just say it is not in accordance with the way those terms are generally used. I suspect it also tends to trivialize the real suffering of those in actual "Third World" countries, especially those in countries, such as Zimbabwe, that have suffered true economic collapse.

Kent


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:45 AM

Kent, I think you and I are using very different definitions of "Third World" country. I am using the one that is in common usage. I have no idea what one you are using.

This appears to be the criteria you are using...

How are the rest of you doing? We still have plenty of turnips, a few beets, and some sheep we can slaughter. Here in the country, we are less affected by the crash. It must be eerie in the cities, the deserted malls, the freeways nearly empty at 5 p.m., the theatres and nightclubs abandoned for the churches and soup kitchens. I think of the emigrants swimming south across the Rio Grande, hoping for a new life in Mexico. I think of Miami, that once-proud city, depopulated, the now-pensionless elderly having fled Northward to live with their grandchildren, the Cuban-Americans seeking refuge in Havana. How everyone's lifestyle must have changed - people buying only the bare necessities, grocery stores with no expensive convenience foods, lottery tickets and cigarettes sitting dusty on the store shelves while everyone spends hoarded pennies on parsnips and cabbage, Applebee's, Ruby Tuesday, and TGIFriday's going out of business as everyone cooks at home, L.L. Bean and The Gap closing as families sew their own clothing. Who would have believed, in the old days of childhood obesity and type 2 diabetes, that America would now be having epidemics of scurvy and beriberi? I could not do it now, for it would break my heart, but someday I must visit your world

By these criteria, India, which is considered to be a third world country, would not fall into that category. Third world countries are all of those countries that have not reached the status of developed country. The developed countries are mostly found in Europe and to some extent in Asia (Japan, and Hong Kong, for instance), and Israel. Third World, or Developing countries are most of the countries in South America, Central America, Africa, much of the Middle East, and much of Asia, and parts of the former Soviet Block.

While hardly a scholarly work, this Wikipedia article nevertheless gives a pretty good synopsis. It certainly matches the criteria of Third World countries that I have been aware of for many years...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World

I have no idea where you got your definition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:29 AM

I would feel even more hopeful if Carol C. ran for President and won. Appointing Amos as press secretary, Riginslinger as chief of staff, John of Kansas as science and energy advisor and my wife as chief economist with Robert Reich on her staff.

Still we would have to face a 500 trillion dollar imbalance in need of correction. We have two choices; extreme capitalism or socialism. Do we make the adjustment slowly over a long hard painful time or do it quickly in extreme econmomic agony?

Whatever we do we will be paying for the Bush crime family's needs and wants for at least the next 12 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:15 AM

Soros prediction http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/people%2C601%2Csoros-predicts-worst-recession-for-50-years%2C13683


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:59 PM

LOL, Donuel. But I have to disagree with you about the two choices. I think there is at least one more choice, and possibly others as well. We could have conscious capitalism instead of extreme, predatory capitalism. That would be a huge improvement, in my opinion.

I forgot to include Australia and New Zealand among the Developed countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:54 PM

I think the reality is becoming more obvious to more people as things progress. Multi-national corporations are loyal to no geographic area nor any group of people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 11:14 PM

Interesting remark by PJ O'Rourke, who has recently exhumed all the work of the grandfather of capitalism, Adam Smith. He says Smith was very distrustful of capitalist organizations and was keenly aware they are constantly out to gouge the market public.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 11:40 PM

Do you have a link for that, Amos? I'd love to see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 11:48 PM

However, Adam Smith was very much in favor of maximizing self-interest--which he saw as each nation emphasizing its strengths--and relying on world trade to supply needs.

Therefore he would be strongly in favor of globalization. We should not delude ourselves that this is not so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:54 AM

Carol:

He was interviewed by Jn Stewart on The Today Show on January 23. It should be on Comedy Central's site.

Regards,


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 09:25 AM

cartoon
http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/usa-dees.jpg

The national bribe... http://www.rense.com/general80/natbride.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:05 PM

Thanks, Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 09:56 PM

Of course, now that we've proven Adam Smith to have been basically wrong, you'd think somebody would get about the process of fixing the economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Kent Davis
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:08 PM

In my post of November 14, I thought it would be interesting to imagine what would happen if the U.S. suffered an economic collapse. It seemed to me that the consequences might include:
1. A net reversal of economic migration: "I think of the emigrants swimming south across the Rio Grande, hoping for a new life in Mexico..."
2. Extremely high unemployment: "...the freeways nearly empty at 5 p.m."
3. A substantial decrease in discretionary spending for entertainment: "...people buying only the bare necessities, grocery stores with no expensive convenience foods, lottery tickets and cigarettes sitting dusty on the store shelves while everyone spends hoarded pennies on parsnips and cabbage, Applebee's, Ruby Tuesday, and TGIFriday's going out of business as everyone cooks at home, L.L. Bean and The Gap closing as families sew their own clothing".
4. A loss in the value of pensions to the point that the elderly would not, in general, be able to maintain separate households: "I think of Miami, that once-proud city, depopulated, the now-pensionless elderly having fled Northward to live with their grandchildren..."
5. A change in prevelance of disease states affected by nutritional status: "Who would have believed, in the old days of childhood obesity and type 2 diabetes, that America would now be having epidemics of scurvy and beriberi?"

In the event of an economic collapse, what do you think would happen to economic migration, unemployment, discretionary spending, the value of pensions, and the prevelance of disease states affected by nutritional status?

As I read the Wikipedia article you suggested, I noticed that it classified the U.S. as a "First World" country. Perhaps you intended another reference.

Kent


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Kent Davis
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:15 PM

The previous post is a response to CarolC's of January 24. Sorry for not being clear about which post I was referring to.

Kent


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:26 PM

Since you put all of that in resonse to what I said about the US being a Third World country, you must have intended it to be in response to what I said. If you didn't mean it to be a rebuttal to what I said, why did you quote me in that post?

As I read the Wikipedia article you suggested, I noticed that it classified the U.S. as a "First World" country. Perhaps you intended another reference.

I guess Wikipedia hasn't caught on to the new reality yet. Give them time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Kent Davis
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:36 PM

I did mean it to be a rebuttal.
Kent


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:38 PM

Frankly, it sounds like an improvement to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:33 AM

The fallout from the U.S. sub-prime mortgage market continues, the Northern Rock Bank has now been nationalised. Whatever will happen next?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 11:44 AM

Jim - Sadly, I think this whole thing is just getting started. It could get as bad as Reaganomics in the 1980's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: The Villan
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 07:02 PM

Guest Jim Martin are you in the UK and used to live in Market Rasen by any chance? If so Andy mcNee is trying to make contact with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 05:49 AM

No Villan, that's not me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:19 AM

OK thanks for replying Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 11:48 AM

........and now UK banks/building societies are not providing mortgages unless minimum of 25% deposit is handed over! It's all a very far cry from the situation before Christmas!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:33 PM

If they'd only stuck with a 20% deposit all the way through, we wouldn't be where we are now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:04 AM

Oh, THIS explains everything...Wall Street got drunk: CLick Here!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:07 AM

Whatever they were into "drunk" seems to mild to explain it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:20 AM

"Haiti with 1% holding all the wealth"

A big assed lie


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:29 AM

Okay, what percentage of Haitian society does hold the wealth. Or is there any wealth in Haiti to hold?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:55 AM

"1% of whom own nearly half the country's wealth"


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:42 AM

Any of you folks checked out the "doom and gloom" posts when this thread started? No doubt about it, the sky is falling. Oops, I said that in 2007! Is it still falling? Most of you folks seem to think so. When is it going to stop falling? Most times, when something falls, it doesn't wait a year to hit the bottom.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:03 AM

Things go in waves, Doug. They go up for a bit, then they go down for a bit, then they go up again, then down again, and so on. Just like a sine wave. That happens in just about everything. It seems, in fact, to be the normal state of the whole Universe. It is reflected in changing weather patterns too. Take a look at the stock market and you will see that it goes in similar waves. In fact...that's what makes the game so interesting for those who play it.

It's not, and never has been, a question of "the sky falling". The sky lowers a bit, then it raises a bit, then it lowers again. You really should stop dragging that stupid expression "the sky is falling" into every political/social discussion here where some people say a few things you don't happen to agree with.

There will come a day when the USA is not the number one power in the world any longer, Doug. There comes such a day for all great powers. But if you cross your fingers and hope for the best, that day might not come until sometime after you and I are not here anymore....in which case you'll never be too badly disappointed. ;-)

Think outside the box, man. Your "American" version of reality is just a temporary one, and it's pretty arbitrary too. Have a little humility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:30 PM

"Most times, when something falls, it doesn't wait a year to hit the bottom."


                     Yes, it started falling the minute Ronald Reagan's first budget his Congress, and it's been falling in spurts ever since.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:01 AM

When he invaded Iraq Oil was selling at $25 a barrel. Today that same barrel of oil has more than quadrupled. The military is disillusioned and war weary; their equipment has been driven into the ground or been blown to pieces, along with the GI's that tried to use it: Yet all this administration seems to care about is starting a much bigger war.
The nation has never before even approached the kind of national and international debt that we have now! In case you care every man woman and child, in America, now already owes the government $400,000.00 each, directly because of the failed polices over the last seven years-when will this stop: "Never ­ because we are in the never-ending war" according to President Cheney.


Two banks failed Friday and there could be as many as 300 reorganizations.

One out of 171 mortgage are in foreclosure. About 1/6th of home loans will fail.

All the agencies designed to protect America are now staffed and owned by people who only want to protect their foreign investments.
Nat Assoc of Man. etc.
ALL OF THEM

This country may have been made on the backs of the poor and protectionist policies made us wealthy but today it is all sold due to the cheap dollar and Financial giants who protect only their investment with lobbying and lieing.

Bell Labs was just sold to France, Budweiser to Belgium, the list is scary. GM to Abu Dabe

You think Enron stole? The entire country has been stolen by Wall St, Banks and Corporations that could care less. They are not American. Free trade was never meant to help you.


If you don't know whats going on yet, close your eyes and call everyone else a pessimist. You will not be the answer or help to your country anymore. You drank the kool aid and may never know better again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:34 AM

Westinghouse along with its nuclear labs was sold to Toshiba.
What has not been outsourced has been sold with the cheap dollar.

The last thing Americans had was their home. The banks and Wall Street took care of that. Of course they bought laws to let them do anything they wanted and now are bailed out.

You have been milked by 6 wealthy families more than the Golded Age exploited labor.


We are now skimming by on the full faith and credit of the US Treasury.

you think that is a good bet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 01:14 PM

"You have been milked by 6 wealthy families more than the Golded Age exploited labor."


                      Donuel - That statement could use a little explaination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 01:18 PM

Ah, yes the "I'm all right, Jack" attitude we've come to expect from Bush supporters. I'm doing fine, I'm in the lifeboat--don't talk to me about how you're drowning. Exactly why GWB is so popular.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 01:20 PM

Re: "...Most times, when something falls.."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

There's a dark and a troubled side of life
There's a bright and a sunny side too
Though we meet with the darkness and strife
The sunny side we also may view

   Keep on the sunny side   always on the sunny side
   Keep on the sunny side of life
   It will help us every day it will brighten all our way
   If we keep on the sunny side of life


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 08:35 PM

Donuel - If we just knew who the six families were, we could watch for them coming down the street!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 10:41 PM

Senator Obama and Senator McCain both refrained from voting on the bailout today. Which chickenshit shall lead us?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 11:08 PM

Sounds like Doug is looking for a crash along the lines of what took place in 1929. I don't believe that's going to happen this time around.

If the '29 crash was like a man jumping from the window of a 30-story skyscraper, the current crash is more like a drunk falling down the stairs of that same skyscraper one flight at a time. He'll fall down a flight, get up, dust himself off, take a few deep breaths, and fall down another flight. Eventually, he'll wind up in the same spot as the guy who jumped. It's just going to take a lot longer. The good news is that he might sober up along the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:04 AM

The ecomomy is not in Armagedon mode. It has however been exploited by two and three figure billionaire parasites to the point where the host will not recover for 2 or three generations.

Earlier I meant to say Gilded Age. The Golded Age is known for Robber Barons of Railroad and steel fame. They made the laws and they called the shots. The robber barons of today have tools today like media, think tanks, religious exploitation, law making, electronic trading preference and an anominity that ascribes more power to a concentrated few than any 6 Presidents will ever have.

We have an administration that has new agencies like HLS answerable directly to the president.   NSA and CIA have been decimated/ purged of the truth tellers. Now even the EPA is directly controled by the WHite House. A KGB style Executive office is poised to create new hot and cold running wars and legal authority to yell enemy combatent and make people disappear. Bush, Pinochet and Putin have everything in common except for the astounding W factor of emotional and personal incompetance. One thing we might thank god for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 10:54 AM

"If the '29 crash was like a man jumping from the window of a 30-story skyscraper, the current crash is more like a drunk falling down the stairs of that same skyscraper one flight at a time. He'll fall down a flight, get up, dust himself off, take a few deep breaths, and fall down another flight. Eventually, he'll wind up in the same spot as the guy who jumped. It's just going to take a lot longer. The good news is that he might sober up along the way."


             Bee-dubya-ell - I think you've described it pretty well. What it seems to me that you haven't taken into account is, this is a situation that has been going on for some time now. And I hate to be the one to bring bad news, but there's just as good a chance that he'll break his neck and die as sober up along the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 12:51 PM

Rig, you may be right. But if the drunk does get sober, that sobriety will be achieved by getting rid of a number of false assumptions (addictions, if you will) that are underlying causes of the current economic situation. Some of those assumptions are:

1) Oil will be cheap forever.

2) Buying on credit is as good as, or even preferable to, paying cash.

3) The financial sector, which does nothing but facilitate the flow of money from one place to another while actually producing nothing, is of greater value to our economy than the manufacturing and agricultural sectors.

If the guy falling down the stairs comes to the realization that the above assumptions are delusional and adjusts his behavior appropriately, there's a good chance that the resulting new economic paradigm that grows out of that realization will be healthier and more sane than the one which is currently in the process of collapsing around us. If he doesn't make the necessary changes and continues to attempt to live via the current economic paridigm, yes, he's gonna break his fool neck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 12:55 PM

Some people mock others by talking about the sky falling when real problems are discussed. Others do it by saying "let them eat cake". The basic sentiments are the same. "I've got mine, to hell with everyone else."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 01:40 PM

Well, BWL - I agree with all of those observations. Remember what happened to Jimmy Carter, though, when he suggested we look for alternative forms of energy. I guess our man hadn't sobered up at that point. Has he now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:24 PM

The U. S. economy has crashed? It has? Because the Washington Post said it had in June of this year? Horrors. The surely it must be so!

Horse Pucky! A recession certainly would precede a crash, and according to accepted economic consensus, we are not even in a recession.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:02 PM

What the more enlightened participants in the discussion are saying is, the US Economy is in the process of crashing.
                In my opinion, it's been going on since whoever was running Ronald Reagan tried to steal the country blind back in the 1980's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:04 PM

New orders for durable goods in June up .8% which is an awesome number and I thought DougR was on to something but, whoops, 87% of those were for military consumption.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:14 AM

Well, the American dollar used to be worth $1.50 Canadian. Now it's worth only $1.00 Canadian.

So, Doug, either Canada is doing tremendously better than the USA or the USA is falling back badly. Or both.

Gosh, and we've got more socialism in Canada. It's a conundrum, isn't it, Doug? Of course, we didn't spend a trillion dollars on an unnecessary war in Iraq...

Now, here's the really ironical part, Doug. ;-) I run an export business here. I get paid entirely in US dollars! So I would be delighted if your dollar had remained strong. I've lost 40% of my cash flow to your dilapidated dollar in the past couple of years!

I keep hoping that your sunny and optimistic views about the state of the American economy get validated by some real evidence of it...such as the return of a strong American dollar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:50 AM

Astute observation, heric, about which chickenshit shall lead us. Both candidates have been eerily silent about the economic problems Americans are facing.

Yesterday on some news program (I was surfing, so don't remember which), they were saying gas consumption was down by over 2% in the past month, and part of the reason why gas prices were dropping.

Sure, I think to myself. Sure.

I don't think the gas price fixers will shoot the price over $4.00 again before the elections (OK, maybe over Labor Day weekend). They can't afford volatile, angry voters. If we get a completely new Congress, the bribe machine will have to go into overdrive!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:07 AM

DV:

IF you think Obama has not been speaking to the issues of the economy, you may have the sound turned off on your TV and been reading with your eyes closed or something.

IF you want to know what his positions on the issue are, havwe you tried to look them up on the Obama website? I think you'll find them there.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:28 AM

Amos, political discussions with you might be likened to talking with a brick wall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:33 AM

Well, I am not so sure of that. If you tried raising some specifics, you might be surprised. I have been around enough blocks to have some developed views of how people work and what they do; but I am open to learning the error of my ways, if you can provide specifics.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:45 PM

LH: Read my post again. I did NOT say our economy is in super condition. We are experiencing lots of problems. I'm merely pointing out that the economy is NOT at rock bottom like the doomsayers like to report.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:02 PM

And specifically what has Obama has said about "issues of the economy" Please give us an example from your wealth of infinite knowledge.

I know you wouldn't send us elsewhere to find the proof of your claims ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

Amos: Rock wall? :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:46 PM

I agree with you, Doug, it's not at rock bottom. Rock bottom is a long way off yet, and let's hope we never get there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:48 PM

On that we are in agreement, Little Hawk, my friend (as John McCain might say) :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:08 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/08/31/eaarctic131.xml


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:09 PM

This is all part & parcel of the same problem - the wretched banks:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/08/31/eaarctic131.xml


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM

Rock bottom is 2 years off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM

Oops, sorry, wrong link, this is what it should be:

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/how+the+banks+never+lose/2425927


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM

Yeah, all of this could give rise to another Hitler!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM

Amazing what's happened since the last comment on here!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM

I assume that this is the correct place to politely ask Bobert to clarify the source of his matter of fact comment "The US is getting more and more like Haiti with 1% holding all the wealth" without being accused of making a personal attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

the most amazing thing is that some Americans are shooting themselves in the foot,
continuing the disaster-practice of Bush/McCain.

They blame immigrants, communists, terrorists, and every one else for their idiotic
decisions in the voting booth.

Many Americans have been brain-washed into thinking unions are bad, Walmart is great,
China is our friend, and the classic one now is the mind-boggling statement,
"The fundamentals of our economy are strong".

McCain has Gramm to chastize us as "whiners". McCain is no friend to the American
worker.

If McCain is elected, I predict another major depression in the US.

This government needs to cap the salaries of the robber-CEOs who bankrupt their firms and steal from the taxpayer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

I wonder how those who have been ridiculing this thread have fared in the recent downturn.

Still inclined to ridicule the basic premise of the thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:59 PM

DV and Sawz:

Are you guys really so lazy or moribund uin your thinking that you can't find out for yourself what Obama's economic platform consists of? For shame. How lazy andf ill-informed do you dare let yourself become, as a citizen? It demonstrates the crudest indifference to the nature of the democratic process. Really.


1: Barack Obama Speech on Improving America's Prosperity. Read here.


2: Barack Obama's Retirement Security Proposal. Read here.


3: Barack Obama's Urban Poverty Proposal. Read here.


4: Barack Obama's Economic Proposal for Rural America. Read here.


4a. Clip from Barack Obama's Rural Summit. Watch here.


5: Barack Obama's Social Security Proposal. Read here.


6: Barack Obama's Speech/Proposals on Strengthening America's Families in a New Economy. Read here.


7: Barack Obama's Speech on America's Tax Policy. Read here.


8. Video of Barack Obama's Tax Fairness Speech. Watch here.


9: Barack Obama's Plan for Technological Innovation. Read here.


10. Video of Obama's Speech on Technological Innovation. Watch here.


11: Barack Obama Interview on America's Housing Industry. Read here.


12. Obama presented an economic stimulus plan week.   Read here.


13.  January speech on "Being Ready on Day One". Read Obama’s speech here.



14. Obama discusses the Economic Crisis. View here

Now you don't have to wave your arms in ignorance any longer. Congratulations.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM

See also this summary page of Obama economic proposals if your are still dogged by you own laziness.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:26 PM

Nice reference links to actual policy Amos


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:06 PM

"They blame immigrants, communists, terrorists, and every one else for their idiotic decisions in the voting booth."


                   I don't know why they'd blame communists and terrorists...


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM

From chaos comes new-found opportunities--for those with lotsa money. Such has been the game plan for decades. No, over a century. Look to the New World Order. The accumulation of wealth is being used to destroy our planet, to enslave common people. None of this is news. Has it struck anyone that the timing of this latest 'collapse' comes near an election?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:19 PM

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Stocks plummeted Wednesday, with the Dow industrials falling 449 points in its second worst session of the year, as the government's emergency rescue of AIG amplified fears about the stability of financial markets.

The selloff comes in the wake of the government's bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Lehman Brothers' bankruptcy, Merrill Lynch's sale to Bank of America and ongoing worries about Washington Mutual and other firms.

"There's a fear of a financial system meltdown going on, and it's grounded in the headlines we're seeing about the series of firms that are in trouble," said Paul Rabbit, president of Rabbit Capital Management.


On The Newshour (PBS) last night all three of the financial experts on the show thought things would keep getting worse for another year anyway (one of them thought that was optimistic, he had a very dour outlook).


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:46 PM

DougR's posts throughout this thread are a wonderful example of how to sleepwalk to disaster. When will the US economy hit the bottom, Doug? How will we know?? It is now more than a year since you found it necessary to tell us your portfolio was down $17,000 - but would pick up again. Do come back and tell us you've made good the loss. Don't be reticent. And reassure me again that any talk of economic troubles ahead is horse-pucky. Oh, and just run once more through that bit about how a recession has to precede a crash....

To be serious, I am pleased that this thread is on the record.
It shows exactly how predictable - and predicted - this whole crisis was.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:57 PM

They blamed communists in the 50's. They red baited all sorts of people.

Look at the Sam's Club Republicans today spanking proud of their (Red)Chinese Walmart with cheap products made by women who had forced abortions by the State each time one of them had more tahn one child, unless the women paid a half years salry penalty.

The Robber Barons call anyone who might interfere with their wholsale theft.

Today we might be called liberals...
There is no such thing as liberals.

Perhaps the northern founding fathers were liberals but the coinage of the words Commie, traitor, trouble maker, and now today "Liberal" has been completely forced on people by robber barons, rip off artists and megalomaniacs.

When Mine owners abused miners to death, the workers and wives organized, only to have Bosses hire Pinkerton Guards who shot them dead. Some of those abused miners wore red bandanas and were later called red necks.

When farmers lost farms and prices for their crops they organized and marched on the Capitol steps and were shot dead.

When Martin Luther King...you get the idea.

Whoever is getting the short end of the stick through no cause of their own, except for needing work, they get red baited, gooned, spied on or killed.

What ever we are being called, you can bet the name callers have a financial reason for making us their enemy.

If ya keep half the people distracted at church and the other half bein spit on and lied about, you stand a pretty good chance of exploiting the whole lot.

I don't hold to that kind of bullying, stealing and killing.
It takes more than guns to kill a man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:06 PM

Well, Donuel, I agree with a lot of what you say here, especially the "distracted at church" part.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:10 PM

ARghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! There goes the sky again! Capitalism is DEAD! If you don't believe that, just ask a liberal.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:17 PM

Doug R:

That is complete horse puckey.

However, the extent to which capitalism has been allowed by your favorite squad of deadheads to become corrupt and toxic to its own environment by the self-serving and sightless members of your loyal party has to be noticed even by the slow and the obstinate such as your candidate.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:12 PM

Capitalism isn't dead. But its limitations are becoming very apparent at this point in time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:42 PM

Could you be a little more specific Doug? Instead of just implying that we are wrong, please show us where. Seriously, why should we not be concerned?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:46 PM

"Capitalism isn't dead. But its limitations are becoming very apparent at this point in time."


                   Adam Smith pointed out the weaknesses of Laize Faire Capitalism back in the 1750's. Reagan was able to sell it to people addicted to Christianity and unable to think. We're still paying for that snow job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:02 PM

Can I see the Obamas math on his populist economic proposals or would that be considered lazy in you usual uncivil and insulting way?

Do you believe that they are feasible and that they will actualy turn into reality?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:16 PM

Well I'm glad that all is still well, DougR. And how encouraging it is that you, of all people, are so relaxed about the wholesale nationalisation that is now sweeping the US economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:20 PM

On laissez faire capitalism... it's an interesting concept, but it's never been tried.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:21 PM

LOL

It's times like this when we find out who the real socialists are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:52 PM

The Obama plan would be good for folks like me but the DOD might think not so good for people entrenched in defense contracts.

Laissez faire on one hand and Nafta on the other. good opposites. I will have to ask someone who knows how that could apply today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:16 AM

WaMu is now shaking in its boots because it's whole cushion is under threat by overexposure in the ARM and subprime mortgage markets.

We're running out of banks, here, guys.

BofA and Wells Fargo have really dickhead reps to do business with.

The local credit union is beginning to sound attractive.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:27 AM

Our bank is a Canadian bank that has a US presence. Anyone got any speculation about whether or not banks like that would be affected?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:37 AM

"On laissez faire capitalism... it's an interesting concept, but it's never been tried."

Wow! I actually agree with CarolC!.

I also agree with our small (but vocal) contingent of Brits who are card-carrying members of the Comunist Workers Party. Yes, true Marxism has never been achieved either.

The reason is human nature. Both laissez faire capitalism and true Marxism require "perfect" people who never lie, cheat, steal or act in greed. That means everybody must be "perfect".

It is truely hysterical to think all people will change to "perfect" overnight just because a few people want them to. Absolutely hysterical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:29 AM

You've go to wonder if George Soros is behind all of this. Just when it was beginning to look like his plan for taking over the country through MoveOn.org was failing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Stu
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:48 AM

"It is truely hysterical to think all people will change to "perfect" overnight just because a few people want them to"

I'm not sure about it being hysterical but I agree it's never going to happen, however many people want it to.

The problem is, this argument is used frequently against people who subscribe to an ideology, and this is slowly killing politics, where we need a wide representation of ideas in order to move on in the future in any meaningful way. I've said many times that 'democracy' really means capitalism in modern western political parlance. The evidence for this is easy to find: in the US and the UK virtually every politician in the mainstream has abandoned any solid ideological stance in case they alienate the business interests that bankroll them or their parties. This is an inevitable result of unregulated capitalism, and is as undesirable as a totalitarian Communist regime; the mind control techniques used to turn us all into unquestioning, wasteful consumers would have put the Soviet propaganda ministry to shame.

There must be regulation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:14 AM

The reason laissez faire capitalism has never been tried isn't because people are imperfect, or because they lie, cheat, steal or act in greed. The reason laissez faire capitalism has never been tried is because the system isn't set up to be laissez faire capitalism. It's set up to be corporate socialism, and it always has been. Nobody (at least not any of the captains of industry and finance) really wants laissez faire capitalism. Heaven forbid, that wouldn't do at all. If that happened, big business would lose all of those lovely taxpayer funded subsidies and bailouts, and the funding for their endless resource wars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:30 AM

"Politicians Lie, Numbers Don't
And the numbers show that Democrats are better for the economy than Republicans.
By Michael Kinsley

Posted Tuesday, Sept. 16, 2008, at 1:49 PM ET

If you're wondering why a formerly honorable man like John McCain would build his presidential campaign around issues that are simultaneously beside-the-point, trivial, and dishonest (sex education for kindergartners, lipstick on pigs), the numbers presented here may help to solve that mystery. Since the conventions ended, McCain has mired the presidential race in dishonest trivia because he doesn't want it to focus on what voters say is the most important issue this year: the economy.

There is no secret about any of this. The figures below are all from the annual Economic Report of the President, and the analysis is primitive. Nevertheless, what these numbers show almost beyond doubt is that Democrats are better at virtually every economic task that is important to Republicans.

In other words, there are no figures here about income inequality, or percentage of the population with health insurance, or anything like that. This exercise implicitly assumes that lower taxes are always good and higher government spending is always bad. There is nothing here about how clean the air is or how many children are growing up in poverty. The only point is that if you find the Republican mantra of lower taxes and smaller government appealing, and if you care only about how fast the economy is growing, not how that growth is shared, you should vote Democratic. Of course, if you do care about things like economic inequality and children's health, you should vote Democratic as well.
..."

Complete article and supporting chart can be found here


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:41 AM

"...By the mid-20th century, the behemoths of American manufacturing reinvested their own resources to meet most of their capital needs, while New Deal-era and subsequent administrations (including that of Republican Dwight Eisenhower) invested heavily in the nation's infrastructure. Wall Street played a diminished role during the golden years of mass American prosperity but came roaring back beginning with the financial deregulation of the Reagan era.

Finance set the terms of corporate behavior over the past quarter-century, and not in ways that bolstered the economy. By its actions -- elevating shareholder value over the interests of other corporate stakeholders, focusing on short-term investments rather than patient capital, pressuring corporations to offshore jobs and cut wages and benefits -- Wall Street plainly preferred to fund production abroad and consumption at home. The internal investment strategy of 100 years ago was turned on its head. Where Morgan once funneled European capital into American production, for the past decade Morgan's successors have directed Asian capital into devices to enable Americans to take on more debt to buy Asian products.

Worse yet, as Wall Street turned its back on America, so did government. The Bush administration and congressional Republicans (John McCain among them) kept American incomes low by opposing hikes in the minimum wage; helping employers defeat unionization; and shunning policies to modernize infrastructure, make college more affordable, and boost spending on basic science and research.

Today, it's the Democrats who sound like Lincoln's Republicans. In recent months, the Obama campaign and liberal think tanks in particular have generated numerous proposals for heightened public commitment to infrastructure and education. Unlike tax cuts, which chiefly bolster our ability to consume imported goods and commodities, infrastructure investments make us more productive and have a multiplier effect that creates more jobs over and above those that the government funds directly. Congressional Democrats have included major infrastructure investments in their pending new stimulus bill, which Bush and GOP leaders oppose.

Someone needs to invest in the United States of America. For the past decade and, in a broader sense, for the entire duration of the Reagan era, both government and Wall Street have opted not to. Should Barack Obama win, the era of neglectful government will probably come to an end. No matter who wins, Wall Street is vanishing before our eyes. And by the measure of their contribution to America's economic strength and well being, both Reagan-age government and Wall Street's investment banks plainly deserve to die. "

Wa Po Op-Ed


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Bee
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

The Bank of Canada is joining the U.S. Federal Reserve and central banks in Europe and Japan to shovel up to a quarter of a trillion dollars into global money markets as they strive to restore confidence in the world's battered financial system.

In a statement issued at 3 a.m. ET, the Bank of Canada said it is acting with the Bank of England, the European Central Bank (ECB), the Federal Reserve, the Bank of Japan and the Swiss National Bank with "co-ordinated measures designed to address the continued elevated pressures in U.S.-dollar short-term funding markets."

In particular, the Bank of Canada and the Federal Reserve have established a $10-billion US reciprocal currency arrangement to provide U.S.-dollar liquidity in Canada.

More from CBC:


http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/09/18/central-banks-markets.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM

rescue problems


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:45 PM

AN interesting analysis of a basically obsolete business model called Wall Street:

"Wall Street's Unraveling
__
By Robert J. Samuelson
Wednesday, September 17, 2008; Page A19

Wall Street as we know it is kaput. It is not just that Merrill Lynch agreed to be purchased by Bank of America or that the legendary investment bank Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy or that the insurance giant AIG is floundering. It is not even that these events followed the failure of the investment bank Bear Stearns or the government's takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the largest mortgage lenders. What's really happened is that Wall Street's business model has collapsed.


Greed and fear, which routinely govern financial markets, have seeded this global crisis. Just when it will end isn't clear. What is clear is that its origins lie in the ways that Wall Street -- the giant investment houses, brokerage firms, hedge funds and "private equity" firms -- has changed since 1980. Its present business model has three basic components.


First, financial firms have moved beyond their traditional roles as advisers and intermediaries. Once, major investment banks such as Goldman Sachs and Lehman worked mainly for their clients. They traded stocks and bonds for major institutional investors (insurance companies, pension funds, mutual funds). They raised capital for companies by underwriting -- selling -- new stocks and bonds for the firms. They provided advice to corporate clients on mergers, acquisitions and spinoffs. All these services earned fees.

Now, most financial firms also invest for themselves. They use partners' or shareholders' money to place bets on stocks, bonds and other securities -- so-called "principal transactions." Merrill and other retail brokers, which once served individual clients, have ventured into investment banking. So have some commercial banks that were barred from doing so until the repeal in 1999 of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933.

Second, Wall Street's compensation is heavily skewed toward annual bonuses, reflecting the profits traders and managers earned in the year. Despite lavish base salaries, bonuses dominate. Managing directors with 15 years' experience can receive bonuses five to 10 times their base salaries of $200,000 to $300,000.

Finally, investment banks rely heavily on borrowed money, called "leverage" in financial lingo. Lehman was typical. In late 2007, it held almost $700 billion in stocks, bonds and other securities. Meanwhile, its shareholders' investment (equity) was about $23 billion. All the rest was supported by borrowings. The "leverage ratio" was 30 to 1.

Leverage can create huge windfalls. Suppose you buy a stock for $100. It goes to $110. You made 10 percent, a decent return. Now suppose you borrowed $90 of the $100. If the price rises to $101, you've made 10 percent on your $10 investment. (Technically, the price has to exceed $101 slightly to cover interest payments.) If it goes to $110, you've doubled your money. Wow.

Once assembled, these components created a manic machine for gambling. Traders and money managers had huge incentives to do whatever would increase short-term profits. Dubious mortgages were packaged into bonds, sold and traded. Investment houses had huge incentives to increase leverage. While the boom continued, government remained aloof. Congress resisted tougher regulation for Fannie and Freddie and permitted them to run leverage ratios that, by plausible calculations, exceeded 60 to 1.

..." (Washington Post column)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:02 PM

The view from Der Spiegel:

"...Many are drawing comparisons with the Great Depression, the national trauma that has been the benchmark for everything since. "I think it has the chance to be the worst period of time since 1929," financing legend Donald Trump told CNN. And the Wall Street Journal seconds that opinion, giving one story the title: "Worst Crisis Since '30s, With No End Yet in Sight."

But what's really happening? Experts have so far been unable to agree on any conclusions. Is this the beginning of the end? Or is it just a painful, but normal cycle correcting the excesses of recent years? Does responsibility lie with the ratings agencies, which have been overvaluing financial institutions for a long time? Or did dubious short sellers manipulate stock prices -- after all, they were suspected of having caused the last stock market crisis in July.

The only thing that is certain is that the era of the unbridled free-market economy in the US has passed -- at least for now. The near nationalization of AIG, America's largest insurance company, with an $85 billion cash infusion -- a bill footed by taxpayers -- was a staggering move. The sum is three times as high as the guarantee provided by the Federal Reserve when Bear Stearns was sold to JPMorgan Chase in March.

The most breathtaking aspect about this week's crisis, though, is that the life raft -- which Washington had only previously used to bail out the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- is being handed out by a government whose party usually fights against any form of government intervention. The policy is anchored in its party platform.

"I fear the government has passed the point of no return," financial historian Ron Chernow told the New York Times. "We have the irony of a free-market administration doing things that the most liberal Democratic administration would never have been doing in its wildest dreams."

Bush Cancels Trip

The situation appears to be so serious that George W. Bush cancelled two domestic trips he had planned for Thursday on short notice. Instead, the president will remain in Washington to discuss the "serious challenges confronting US financial markets." He said the president remained focused on "taking action to stabilize and strengthen the markets." Bush had originally planned to travel to events in Florida and Alabama.


NEWSLETTER
Sign up for Spiegel Online's daily newsletter and get the best of Der Spiegel's and Spiegel Online's international coverage in your In- Box everyday.

So far, the US presidential candidates have made few helpful remarks about the crisis other than the usual slogans. Both are vaguely calling for "regulation" and "reform" -- bland catchphrases almost universally welcomed with applause.

Republican Party presidential candidate John McCain had the most to say. On Monday, he said "the foundation of our economy" was "strong," adding that he opposed a government-led bailout of US insurer AIG. But now he's promising further government steps "to prevent the kind of wild speculation that can put our markets at risk." McCain's explanation for the current crisis: "unbridled corruption and greed."

But Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama didn't move past superficialities, either. "We're Americans. We've met tough challenges before and we can again."

What else are they supposed to say? After all, US presidents have very little influence on stockmarkets. And Wall Street is expecting the status quo for the next president. On Wednesday an almost palpable mix of tension and melancholy filled the air above New York's Financial District. The beloved trader bar Bull Run was half empty, and many tables were free at fine-dining establishments like Cipriani, Mangia and Bobby Van's, which are normally booked days in advance.

At the side entrance to Goldman Sachs on Pearl Street, limo chauffeurs sat waiting for their customers, still above in their office towers cowering over the accounts. "If they go under," said Rashid Amal, who works as a chauffeur for a firm called Excelsior, "then I will soon be out of a job, too."

...:


I am not sure I understand the contradiction between various reports that Americans have been failing to save, and have been living on credit cards and recycled mortgages and other debt, and the panic of the banking industry. If there is so little savings in the nation, why is this such a profound high-RIchter shakedown?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:13 PM

I work in the housing industry and I am afraid to read the thread.......it;s scarey out there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM

my illustration of the Feds infusion of Liquidity


They did this intentionally . It has been set up for 8 years.
All the added spying on citizens and the executive branch homeland security troops that go where the FBI would not are designed to be first responders to any possible anger blowback by Americans.

Be that as it may I have always taken up the mantle of looking over the hill and reporting what I see. Other people here have different modes of chronicling what has already happened.


HERE IT IS....
They say all these bail outs are unprecedented...
They are only warming up for the biggest rip off of all history. It will be like firing a cannon in comparison to pulling the trigger on the Wall Street bailuouts you've seen so far.



Between the war and Wall Street, so far we have seen a minimum of 3 trillion dollars leave our country. ( gee we really coulda used some of that for natural disasters and infrastructure and free health care and that vacation you wished you could have before you died)

GET READY FOR DOUBLE THAT

The mother of all bail outs is coming......mark my words

They will claim it is less than a trillion dollar generic bailout but with interest ect. it will be an additional $3 TRILLION.

Thats a $6 Trillion dollar heist.

don't forget the $93 Trillion dollar fraud sale of worthless mortgage securities we sold the world as triple top shelf most secure investments on Earth.

and its all coming to you before Christmas.

PS

it will be called "the long term solution"


reminds me of the final solution


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:32 PM

So what's the next bail out going to be then? The big one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:34 PM

'They' have to 'get' while the gettings good and they know this will be their last chance for a long while. (without a magic bullet solution)


Some people don't believe in 'they'. They don't beleive people conspire to the ideal of the unseen hand.

they are bigger than US republicanism.

they = Military financial Corporate banking families who social engineer with their 100 trillion dollar holdings.
To them Hitler Stalin Mao are admirable pioneers but mere amateurs compared to the financial organizations they control today.

The world bank is but a committee to them, The Bilderbergs is just a picnic grounds. The Carlyle Group, tri lateral and foregn relations committee are merely a subsidiaries of subsidiaries of their stering committee. The critical solution committee are virtually someting out of a 007 novel and discuss polulation contro by various means that would make you blood run cold. They have also been called the octopus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:38 PM

But what is the big bail out that's going to happen before December? The one after this one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM

...the one that's going to be the "biggest rip off in all history"? What are we going to be bailing out when that happens?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:03 PM

The Federal Gummint its own self? Saved by a herd of loosely associated billionaires? Oy, my poor Founding Fathers. Curses on you, Alexander Hamilton!! This is all your fault!!



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:51 PM

a couple of years ago I read a book called the 'empire of debt'

see the www.dailyreckoning.com
- although while it sounded over the top at times..
their prediction was bang on.

rake in the money while the sun shines but when it rains
expect the taxpayer to cover it.

bill bonners suggestion is to buy gold,

the irony here is that it is a conservative/republican govt that has actually stepped in and bailed out Aig and Frannie(s)
these are the people that have always said govt has no place in business..


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:36 PM

Most of the big bail outs happen under Republican administrations. I wonder if this means that companies tend to need bailing out more when Republicans are in office, or if Republican administrations are just inherently more inclined towards corporate socialism than Democratic administrations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:48 PM

"I wonder if this means that companies tend to need bailing out more when Republicans..."


                     Of course it does. Our only chance now is to elect John McCain and hope for a revolution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:00 PM

LOL

Like hell it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:22 AM

> am not sure I understand the contradiction between various reports that Americans have been failing to save, and have been living on credit cards and recycled mortgages and other debt, and the panic of the banking industry. If there is so little savings in the nation, why is this such a profound high-RIchter shakedown?<

As I understand it (and I'm no financial expert - as an understatement) the problem in a zygote is that millions of Americans promised to pay money in the future, believing they would get rich in the interim. Those promises were sold by the promisees to essentially inncocent others. Now millions of people have learned they will not get rich, and have decided that they can't or won't pay that money after all. To a huge extent, the "innocent" investors get burned.

It is for this reaon that I think the simple phrase "privatize the profit and socialize the losses" is confusingly vague, and makes "bailout" sound more perverse than it actually is. It's not that the feds want to protect the rich bankers receiving their promised but-not-materializing funds so much as they want to maintain confidence in the American financial strucure, ESPECIALLY as to investors from outside the country.

It is for this reason that e.g the Bear Stearns bailout was structured to inflect maximum pain on the Bear Stearns principal shareholders, while absorbing the costs of backing up the returns to the innocent buyers (or, for difficult jargon, also where BS was a "counterparty.") Same principal probably applies to an insurance company such as AIG - they will want to protect the insureds more than the shareholders, and also protect the foreign investors.

It is the opposite, I believe, to Mexico telling American real estate purchasers "oh, sorry, those people should never have sold you that land, so we are taking it back," and on an infinitely larger scale.

If you want to locate and punish the evildoers, you should include telling your friends who are walking away from mortgages that they are putting a huge burden on your back (and on your children, as well.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:40 AM

I don't think anyone wants to walk away from their mortgage. I think the problem is that the way the payments are structured, people are simply not able to continue paying on them. The way I understand it is that they were allowed to make payments they could afford for a limited period of time, and then the size of the monthly payments they would have to make increased substantially. It is also my understanding that a lot of the people who signed on to these mortgages didn't fully understand what they were agreeing to, because there was a lot of verbal slight of hand involved in the way these mortgages were sold to people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:13 AM

I recently read somewhere of a study which audited no-doc ("liar") loans and concluded that 70% of the applicants inflated their true incomes on the application, and some huge percentage inflated income by more than 50%. I wish I could remember the actual stats.

I know of three people who walked away from mortgages because they were upside down, not because they couldn't pay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:42 AM

"It is the opposite, I believe, to Mexico telling American real estate purchasers "oh, sorry, those people should never have sold you that land, so we are taking it back," and on an infinitely larger scale."

Not to start an arguement (way too many of those on Mudcat) but that is one of the strangest statements I have seen recently (except from those who usually say nonsense).

First, US citizens, for the most part, are barred from buying Mexican real estate. In a free market we would have bought enormous amounts of the country and had too much influence, something the tiny number of elite fatbutts there can't allow.

Also, a large number of the sub-prime loan recipients were Mexican nationals, some legal and many not. Most falsified claims to get loans and often had "community organizers" and Mexican political activists helping fill out the papers. Dont't tell me otherwise, as I sat in an office behind such a loan canididate who spoke no English but had two activists helping him fill out forms and tell him what the approval committee would like to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:47 AM

What does that mean - they walked away from mortgages because they were "upside down"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:06 AM

"Also, a large number of the sub-prime loan recipients were Mexican nationals, some legal and many not. Most falsified claims to get loans and often had "community organizers" and Mexican political activists helping fill out the papers. Dont't tell me otherwise, as I sat in an office behind such a loan canididate who spoke no English but had two activists helping him fill out forms and tell him what the approval committee would like to see."


                  Don't say that too loud, pdq, I tried to make that point a couple of months back and I'm still bleeding from the wounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:12 AM

It's probably essential that the corrupt global financial systems needed a purge, it's just so ......... (I can't find a word for it at the moment!) that the people at the bottom of the ladder get dragged down with all the manipulators of this fiasco.

We need a new world order that can keep the human race going in a sustainable way (I wish!).


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:19 AM

"'What does that mean - they walked away from mortgages because they were "upside down"?'"

                If you are "upside down" on a loan, it means you owe more on the collateral (house) than it's worth on the market.

                I saw a guy on C-SPAN who made the point that a lot of the trouble we're seeing in housing now can be traced back to the "Bankruptcy Law" that was passed a couple of years ago.
                It all came about because the banks thought they'd devised a perfect scheme to steal money from the public through credit cards, but people were simply running up debt on the credit card and then filing bankruptcy.
                The new law made that a lot harder to do. But before that law was passed, people could file bankruptcy and then save their home by restructuring the loan on the house.
                Now, because they can't get out from under all of their consumer debt, it wouldn't do any good to file bankruptcy, so they just walk away from the house.
                I suspect there are a lot of cases like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

Rig and PDQ:

Hey, I don't doubt you saw what you saw, but I seriously question your assertion abouot the ratio of bad loans that are made to "illegal" immigrants.

One rose does not a summer make, sorta thing, ya know.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:58 AM

synthetic foot
credit swaps
bundled securities

are terms of Orwellian invention to steal money by selling what you don;t have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:02 PM

"Hey, I don't doubt you saw what you saw, but I seriously question your assertion abouot the ratio of bad loans that are made to "illegal" immigrants."


                The point is, a place like Stockton would probably have about the same failure rate as most other places, the failures of mortgages to illegals is what pushes it to stardom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: heric
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:03 PM

I agree with what Donuel just said but also add that a large part of what they didn't have was the future repayments on real estate loans because we the people weren't going to pay them unless there was a clear self-interest intact.

pdq: It is an aside and probably wasn't a useful analogy to begin with, but don't you recall the incident I am talking about? There was a small firestorm in the Cal. press at the time some years back (ten? Times flies), during a Baja boomlet. Several Americans had (not bought) acquired 100 year leases I think in a large development, then had the leases invalidated by the Mexican government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

Why are these institutions making home loans to 'illegals' in the first place?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:27 PM

Don Firth,

Those with brains, education, intelligence and compassion are called "elitists" by the Right Wing. I think we need an "Elite" who have more sense then a redneck hillbilly to lead our
country out of the economic doldrums.

The Founding Fathers of the Constitution were a highly-educated, well-spoken, ideologically high-minded, compassionate "Elite" who had the chops to right one of the greatest documents the world has ever known. Many didn't have the money that the landed gentry or the King's minions had in England.

Rove's idea is that Obama is rich. He's not. Bush is rich. McCain is rich. Money doesn't mean intelligence, education, judgement based on experience, or compassion for working Americans.

I want an "elite" person in the White House who knows more than I do and can make
decisions without having to "buy" them through time on news broadcasts.

We've let stupid people dictate our political machinations for too long now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:16 PM

a lot of the blame should be placed at the feet of
the author of the 1999 repeal of the regulation of financial industry.
ie. deregulating the credit swap market.. Phil Gramm ..
who just happens to be McCains economic advisor..


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:23 PM

btw a similar kind of property boom & bust happened in Japan in 1990
at the time US economists said the Japanese are just prolonging the pain by propping those TBTF (too big to fail banks). The Japanese market still hasnt recovered 18 years later.. (its still less than 80% of the 1990 value)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:30 PM

SO, lemme see...who is it gets the fees for psuhing complex debt structures down the throats of the semi-literate wage-eatrners who don't understand what they're signing? Who is it that makes a few points when they bundle a thousand such mortgages, sold on the basis of a rising market that could not last, sweetened with ARM into rates and dreams that would not materialize, and lubricated with unregulated free-market dynamics, and rolled them up to large investment houses by their tens of thousands?

This is sheer corruption, supported by a fee-based system and sheltered by an indifferent government who knows, and cares about, only the buck.

ANd the bang-bang-bang.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: heric
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:38 PM

It is indeed. But I just don't feel as bad as you more compassionate people for the semi-literate who think they make $125,000 per year when they actually only make $55,000, or even those who claim they didn't understand that a huge rate hike in three years would result in a payment hike in three years. d-oh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:51 PM

We are talking about people who make less than that, I suspect. I am not saying people should be excused for being stupid about basic math, but when you ARE confused, it is criminal for a slick prick to round you up the chute with sweet talk and false assurances. And the numbe rof people who lack basic business survival skills is far greater than you might think, I suspect--a national embarassment. Hell, there are even people who listen raptly to Rush Limbaugh without a single critical thought emerging in their minds. OR so I am told. It could be this is just an urban legend, like the DOdo bird.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM

"Why are these institutions making home loans to 'illegals' in the first place?"


                   Some claim they are not allowed to inquire as to the immigration status of the applicants, others say that it's legal to sell real estate to foreigners in America, so they're happy to do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:55 PM

The loans made to immagrants are 75% more likely to be PAID IN FULL as opposed to long time US residents.

The multi family culture is one reason why mortgages to immagrants are paid, they have 4 payers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:36 PM

Immigrants and not the same thing as illegal immigrants. And what happened to zoning laws?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:57 PM

"Why are these institutions making home loans to 'illegals' in the first place?" ~   KB in Iowa

Well, that is perhaps the 64 billion dollars question. The answer lies in the atempt (actually demand) that the "face" of the average first-time home buyer match the "face" of real America. That was one of the obsessions of the Clinton administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:01 PM

legal, illegal its all money !?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:24 PM

The following fact probably deserves its own thread, but there are too many right now. I just hope you are all sitting down for this:














The financial-services industry's share of total American corporate profits rose from 10% in the early 1980s to 40% at its peak last year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:50 PM

and now the govt is spending close to a trillion buying up all those risky mortgages. Who says govt has no place in business?

incredible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:33 AM

"Why are these institutions making home loans to 'illegals' in the first place?" For the same reason that people climbed Mt Everest. Because they're there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:58 AM

'a new world order that can keep the human race going in a sustainable way' - I just remembered, this is it:

http://www.greeneconomics.org.uk/


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 07:20 AM

Of course, with the bankruptcy laws being what they are now, a legal American citizen is trapped for life trying to pay off whatever debt they accrued. An illegal alien can just go back to where he/she came from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:50 AM

Again, new immigrants pay off their mortgage at twice the success rate of 3rd generationers.

You should be ashamed. It is obscene to lay any fault at the feet of immigrants for the sub prime scheme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:04 PM

I admire the leadership of George W Bush and acknowledge the total vindication of his entire administration by making this Banking crises the most successful banking crises to be entirely paid for the United Sates of America.



Its as though we had our cake and now get to eat it all over again.

JP Morgan


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:10 PM

Whatever happened to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

it got bought out by those who would destroy our country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM

"The financial-services industry's share of total American corporate profits rose from 10% in the early 1980s to 40% at its peak last year."

Heric - How can this be? What is going on? Is this just the Republican way of creating fear and panic and then coming to the rescue?

pdq - "US citizens, for the most part, are barred from buying Mexican real estate." I know plenty of non-Mexicans who own property in Mexico. The banks hold the title in trust but they still own it. They do have regulations in place to stop the purchase of waterfront but as you know, there are plenty of beachfront condos down there. I doubt if they are Mexican owned.

I don't thin financial failure can be blamed on immigrants. Maybe its the developers who have built vast, tract housing in Arizona and elsewhere and now cannot sell the homes. Individuals do not create such a huge financial loss. My guess is that its the speculators who have walked away from their loans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

"I know plenty of non-Mexicans who own property in Mexico. The banks hold the title in trust but they still own it."


                         That doesn't sound like ownership to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:42 PM

"You should be ashamed. It is obscene to lay any fault at the feet of immigrants for the sub prime scheme."


                           Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:17 PM

40% of all corporate profits - How can this be I really do not know. Talk about a paper economy - and one not worth the paper . . . . These are people who are supposed to be selling investors on the value of the actual economy. They provide no real value other than as a part of the "service economy."

It means we get to ponder long and hard about Donuel's assertions of "intentionality," on a very large scale of extraordinary complexity.

So much blame, so much greed, so much incompetence at all levels on Main Street, Wall Street, and on Pennsylvania Ave.

Even the inncoent investors from overseas and huge pension and trust funds that we are supposed to save were clearly buying things they didn't understand - a level of great fault in itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:28 PM

I think the largest component comes from this: "Now, most financial firms also invest for themselves. They use partners' or shareholders' money to place bets on stocks, bonds and other securities -- so-called "principal transactions." Merrill and other retail brokers, which once served individual clients, have ventured into investment banking. So have some commercial banks that were barred from doing so until the repeal in 1999 of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933."

As a very small example, brokerage houses are of course prohibited from using knowledge of a client's impending activity to jump in ahead of a clearly stated intention. But if they have a huge client that has a pattern - e.g. buying or selling in chunks, at intervals, then it would be hard to prove they were making their own decisions because of that confidential knowledge.

I also read recently that one of the huge investment banks was recently putting together a massive acquisition of some kind, gathering mega-investors to make it happen, while failing to disclose that they were shorting the same investment. I'd have to google a long while to find it again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:50 PM

Here it is: Morgan Stanley and HBOS. To be fair, MS said "it did nothing wrong."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/jeremy-warner/jeremy-warners-outlook-morgan-stanley-in-hot-water-over-hbos-short-874929.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:41 PM

The whole thing boils down to pyramid selling of risk. In the end, it became a reverse lottery.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM

A Nation of Village Idiots explores the greed and hypocrisy behind the financial meltdown.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 07:30 PM

Rig -

Read the article linked by Amos and then tell us if you still blame immigrants for the economic meltdown.

As to owning property in Mexico:
http://www.mexcandirect.com/ownership-Mexico

"You have all the rights of a property owner in the U.S. or Canada, including the right to enjoy the property, sell the property, rent the property, improve the property, etc."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:39 PM

From the website you suggested, dianavan:

...the Mexican Constitution Prohibits foreigners from purchasing or owning real estate within 60 miles of an international border or within 30 miles of the Mexican Coast.

I rest my case. (actually, Mexico offers a 50 year lease with a possibility of a 50 year renewal)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 10:46 PM

Sometime in the very early 1900's Jack London got involved in a scheme to develop property in Mexico. He invested heavily, and got a bunch of his friends to invest, and when they went to close the deal, they found out the Americans couldn't own property in Mexico. Of course the other party was in Mexico, so there was nothing anyone could do about it. They all got bilked.
             London talks about writing books furiously after that, just to pay the bills. I think that's when he went to Reno to call the Jack Johnson/J.J.Jeffries fight.
             In any event, Mexican land barons don't like foreigners meddling in their business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:00 PM

"Read the article linked by Amos and then tell us if you still blame immigrants for the economic meltdown."


                I don't think anyone suggested that immigrants are to blame for the economic meltdown. First, one needs to distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. From there, assuming you are only talking about "illegal immigrants," the point that I was trying to make--and I think pdq agrees with--is that illegal immigrants contributed to the housing crisis.
               The point that I was trying to make in all of this is: if a lender is holding paper on a foreclosed house, and the buyer is legalling in the country, the lender has some recourse against the buyer. If the buyer is not legally in the country, the buyer can just go home. He/she has little motivation to try to save the situation. There is nothing the lender can do; the lender should not have made that loan.
               That might account for why Stockton, CA, and other places in the California Central Valley have higher rates of foreclosure than the rest of the country. I think it is the reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: meself
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:11 PM

Or was it when he went to Sydney, Australia, and wrote up the great Tommy Burns as a bum in order to rationalize the defeat of a white man by a black man - thereby contributing to the destruction of Burns' career?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: meself
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:21 PM

That last referring to Jack London and his treatment of Burns - a sore point with me!

As for illegal immigrants - aren't they the ones who built the houses in the first place?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:17 AM

Anyone can google my link and read the quotes in context.

Pdq and rig have a sleazy way of twisting the facts.

"Because the Mexican Constitution Prohibits foreigners from purchasing or owning real estate within 60 miles of an international border or within 30 miles of the Mexican Coast, a new, safe method of holding title was created. This new instrument, modeled after the one in Monaco, allows ownership through a Mexican Property Trust, called a "Fideicomiso". This is a trust agreement, much like an estate trust, giving you all the rights of ownership."

The bank holds the trust to which you are the beneficiary.

The laws have changed since the days of Jack London.

Rig, you say, "the lender has some recourse against the buyer." Like what? Foreclosing on the house? I can't see what difference it would make if you were in the country legally or not. Besides that, the number of 'illegals' buying property is probably pretty small since they are working below minimum wage and sending most of it home. If you think immigrants are such a big problem, back it up with some figures.

Wake up! This is white collar criminals being bailed out with your tax dollars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:21 AM

It ain't crashed, and it ain't gonna crash. So you lefties just relax and continue to gnash your teeth. The economy will recover and you can continue to hope for the worst. But it ain't gonna happen.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:28 AM

If it doesn't crash, it will only be because trillions of taxpayer dollars will have been pumped into it to shore it up. Talk about tax and spend, big government, socialist politicians, eh? The Republicans have shown themselves to be the biggest tax and spend (and borrow and spend), big government, socialists of any political party in the US. (Of course, when government is wedded to big business, as the US government is becoming under the Bush administration, the more accurate term is fascism.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:59 AM

"Besides that, the number of 'illegals' buying property is probably pretty small since they are working below minimum wage and sending most of it home."


                     dianavan - Yes! I would agree the number is small. But back to the point--if the forclosure rate is 8.6% in Dayton, Ohio, and 8.7% in Stockton, CA, I think the difference could be accounted for by illegal aliens buying homes.
                     In addition to that, the last thing American needs right now is for some illegal alien to be working here and sending his/her money out of the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:00 AM

"As for illegal immigrants - aren't they the ones who built the houses in the first place?"


                Yes, and again, that's part of the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

"Rig, you say, "the lender has some recourse against the buyer." Like what? Foreclosing on the house?"


                If the lender has reason to suspect that the buyer is hiding assets--like sending money out of the country--the lender can seek a deficit judgement.
                In addition, once somebody goes through forclosure, now that the bankrupcy laws have been rewritten, that buyer will be an indentured servent for the rest of his/her working life. An illegal alien, of course, won't have to deal with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM

DougR: Of course it won't crash short term. But we are talking about $7,000 per home on the taxpayers, (to be funded progressively by income tax), plus the costs of a new government agency, plus the costs of the independent firms they will subcontract to, plus the interest on all of that for decades, and ignoring the further devaluation of the dollar.

The economy will be dragging this new deadweight behind it for a long time, while other things remain unfunded and we can't control Iraq or Afghanistan. And we are addressing but a fraction of the bad debt, anyway.

I'll bet Barry Goldwater is dry heaving in his grave while you laugh at the "lefties."

Meanwhile we get to elect a new Republican administration which gives us these inspirational words: "It's so nice to be in a state where they appreciate hockey, good huntin', good fishin', and great football."

Goldwater would vote Democratic in this election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:59 PM

>>>It ain't crashed, and it ain't gonna crash. So you lefties just relax and continue to gnash your teeth. The economy will recover and you can continue to hope for the worst. But it ain't gonna happen.

It's crashed enough so that G W Bush has handed the Presidency to Paulson who is acting now like FDR.

"Conservative" Economic theory has crashed with the economy. Say goodbye to your usual point of view Doug, or you, Krauthammer and Palin will be the last lonely voices in a huge, Alaska-like wilderness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:16 PM

The giants are folding--LEhman, Bear Sterns, MErril Lynch -- and the state of the nation is upside down in debt, with foreclosures rippling through the middle class like a bad dose of Montezuma's revenge.

It's as close to a crash as we have come since 1929.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM

We lost our health care

Let's just consider the money. The public bailout of insurance giant (becoming a dwarf) AIG is estimated at $85 billion. According to one report, that's more than the Bush administration spent on Aid to Families with Dependent Children during his entire time in office. That amount of money would also pay for health care for every man, woman, and child in America for at least six months.

Considering another 800 trillion dollars taken off the top from our future labor, you can see we have lost education money as well.

Regardless of the protests by fools that there is no crash,   the market has crashed.
The measures being taken now are an attempt to make a slow mothion crash over 15 years HOWEVER, there is no gurantee that it will succeed, it is unproven and it will not solve a thing in either case..

Like eating a poiosn mushroom you may feel fine for a couple weeks...but the by products of its metabolization is wehen the poison finally hits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM

I just can't help being fascinated by DougR, if only because he is brave enough to express in words what some millions of idiots truly do believe - ie that having to plough millions of billions of tax dollars into the western economies doesn't mean there's any kind of crisis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: heric
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

"Mr. Paulson on ABC's 'This Week with George Stephanopoulos' said it would be extraordinary if costs did not fall below the expenses associated with purchasing the assets."

Am I reading this right? Did he say that he expects the added costs of the new agency and the outsourcing will in all likelihood be less than the $700 billion worth of purchases?

-------------------------------


"[L]ater on CBS's 'Face The Nation,' Paulson said there is no guarantee Treasury won't be forced to ask for more than the $700 billion it is currently seeking.'"

Why didn't he just ask for a quajillion in the first place?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM

Add another trillion to the national debt

It stands at 11.2 trillion (officially)

We here the words unprecedented. http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/wallstunt.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM

I just hope the Congress doesn't do like it did with the Patriot Act, and they don't pass the damn thing without reading it first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:46 PM

There are still some financial biggies out there. What is to keep them from insolvency? And if they are threatened by bankruptcy, do we just add that bill to the total?

Hey, it's only money...


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 10:38 PM

Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, the last two independent investment banks, will become bank holding companies, the Federal Reserve said Sunday night, fundamentally altering the landscape of Wall Street.

The move fundamentally changes one of the mainstay models of modern Wall Street, the independent investment bank, soon after the federal government unveiled the biggest market rescue since the Great Depression. It heralds new regulations and supervisions of previously lightly regulated investment banks. It is also the latest signal by the Federal Reserve that it will not let Goldman or Morgan fail.

The move comes after the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers and the near-collapses of Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch.

Now, Goldman and Morgan Stanley, which have been the subject of merger speculation in recent weeks, can become direct competitors to larger firms like Citigroup, JPMorgan Chase and Bank of America. Those firms combine investment-banking operations with the larger capital cushions that come with retail deposits, giving them a stability that pure investment banks lack.

JPMorgan acquired Bear Stearns this spring in a fire sale brokered by the federal government, while Bank of America has agreed to buy Merrill Lynch for $50 billion. Barclays of Britain agreed to buy the core capital-markets business of Lehman Brothers out of bankruptcy late last week.

Announced without fanfare on Sunday night, the move signals the final end to the Glass-Steagall Act, the epochal legislation of 1933 that signaled a split between investment banks and retail banks. A law passed in 1999 repealed the earlier regulation, though Goldman and Morgan remained independent investment banks.

Morgan Stanley had sought other ways to bolster its capital, and had been in advanced talks with China's sovereign wealth fund and others about raising as much as $30 billion, people briefed on the matter said Sunday night.

By becoming bank holding companies, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley gained some breathing room in the immediate term. But it likely lays the groundwork for additional deal making. Given the expected bank failures this year, it is possible Goldman and Morgan Stanley could seek to buy them cheaply in a "roll-up" strategy.

Prior to the move, federal regulations prohibited the two investment banks from pursuing such deals. Indeed, Morgan Stanley's recent talks with Wachovia revolved around Wachovia buying Morgan Stanley.

Being a bank holding company would also give the two access to the discount window of the Federal Reserve. While they have had access to Fed lending facilities in recent months, regulators had planned to take away discount window access in January. ... (NYT)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:21 PM

"firms like Citigroup, JPMorgan Chase and Bank of America. Those firms combine investment-banking operations with the larger capital cushions that come with retail deposits, giving them a stability that pure investment banks lack."


Amos, its the combination of high risk investment tradeing and holding banks that makes for a highly toxic and unstable banking system!

The division of the two was what reformed the banking system after the market crash of 1930.


There will be plenty of double speak for the months to come as the final insulting theft continues unabated.

Paulson is telling Congress things completely opposite of what he tells the people on Sunday talk shows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:26 PM

So far Wall Street still wants McCain to win.
I suspect they don't want to leave any money on the table.
US suckers might still be worth another $trillion dollars.

Remember Enron was able to bankrupt California. The 3 families that basicly own all the investment banks can bankrupt the whole nation 24/7 for 15 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:34 PM

What would be the point of doing that? (Not that I doubt they'd try.) But wouldn't that be killing the goose that layed the golden egg? I mean, wouldn't it be more profitable for them to bleed us to death slowly instead of just killing us right off?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

"...But Mr. Paulson insists that he wants a "clean" plan. "Clean," in this context, means a taxpayer-financed bailout with no strings attached — no quid pro quo on the part of those being bailed out. Why is that a good thing? Add to this the fact that Mr. Paulson is also demanding dictatorial authority, plus immunity from review "by any court of law or any administrative agency," and this adds up to an unacceptable proposal.

I'm aware that Congress is under enormous pressure to agree to the Paulson plan in the next few days, with at most a few modifications that make it slightly less bad. Basically, after having spent a year and a half telling everyone that things were under control, the Bush administration says that the sky is falling, and that to save the world we have to do exactly what it says now now now.

But I'd urge Congress to pause for a minute, take a deep breath, and try to seriously rework the structure of the plan, making it a plan that addresses the real problem. Don't let yourself be railroaded — if this plan goes through in anything like its current form, we'll all be very sorry in the not-too-distant future. "



Good advice from Paul Krugman, NYT


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

The whole WORLD is about to be bankrupted. Order out of chaos. The bankers who funded the Axis AND the Allies in WW2 are still running the show. They created that chaos so they could divide the world, consolidate and go on to the next phase, which was the Cold War. The older generation was told that FDR was "sick" at Yalta and gave half the world to the Soviet Union, but the U.S. Senate approves treaties, so was the whole SENATE sick, too? The Cold War was orchestrated.

The last 150 years has been carefully guided to bring us to where we are now. A fiat money system was created. Paper backed by nothing. Now, 2/3rds of the countries in the world have a fiat centralized banking system, and the wealthy banking families run all of it. They've made the U.S. dollar the default world currency, and now they're printing as much as they can to buy as much as they can. Real assets like aquifers, oil fields, airlines. When everything crashes, your COUNTRY will belong to international bankers who bought everything with the U.S. dollar. Simple as that. So what if the dollar is destroyed--it did its job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:04 AM

Right on the money, Mark Calendar (if there's any left...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:14 AM

Mebbe and mebbe not.

Bear in mind that this "$700 billion dollar bailout" is neither. In large part it involves loans, not expenditure of money for bad paper.

So it isn't so much a bailout as an intermediary cushion or shock absorber.

Or so I understand. The critical issue is whether oversight and constitutional limitations should apply, versus a kindo f czar-like power to the Treasury to take up troubled assets.

The other big question mark is the picture of collapse being offered as the immediate consequence of not approving this course of action.
Individual firms going down because they mismanaged is a natural consequence of ineptitude and bad luck and shouldn't be rewarded.

At the same time, an unknown range of interdependencies exist which could go down in a cascading effect with far-reaching secondary consequences. I don't know how wide and deep those consequences could be.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:03 PM

Bush is holding the threat of "if you don't act now" but if the Congress does then they will
be opening the door for repeat offenders.

The crooks will be coming back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 08:38 PM

Carol C, by "bankrupting" the country the people with trillions of dollars in cash have not only consolidated many banks into just two, BUT THEY CAN THEN BUY UP EVERYTHING FOR PENNIES ON THE DOLLAR !!!

the liquid cash families that own the banks (not CEOs) consider themselves to be the golden goose.

These people may not be patriotic in your book but they hire think tanks to propogandize issues to protect their position.

Indeed they may be our greatest traitors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:12 PM

Donuel - I think they are our greatest traitors, next to the politicians who sold out to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:55 PM

Dang, now, Rig, that's a really interesting point of view, one I am highly sympathetic to!


Alexander Hamilton, come back!!



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:00 PM

Yes, I agree. Alex is the man we need right now.

                   I was wondering earlier if there really is anyone on the American scene who the people would trust to take over this mess. I wasn't able to come up with anybody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:24 PM

One of the interesting things about Paulsen's proposal is the explicit freedom from any accountability, judicial or otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:28 PM

The Democrats want to tie it back to individual home owners. You'd never see the end of it if you did that.

                  We need strong leadership here. Where will it come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:17 AM

From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:28
We need strong leadership here. Where will it come from?

Us...if we'd ever get off imitating, and admiring the bullshit artists that got us into this mess, and regained a sound mind through spiritual, and moral awareness!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:25 AM

Guess I should change my name to,'Guest from forgetting to sign in'....sorry


From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:17 AM

From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:28
We need strong leadership here. Where will it come from?

Us...if we'd ever get off imitating, and admiring the bullshit artists that got us into this mess, and regained a sound mind through spiritual, and moral awareness!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 07:55 AM

Finally, somebody got up enough nerve to publish something. ILLEGAL ALIENS & THE MORTGAGE MESS


ILLEGAL ALIENS & THE MORTGAGE MESS
Comments: 1Read Comments Leave a Comment Bush: His lax policies enabled fraud.

Last updated: 7:03 am
September 24, 2008
Posted: 3:51 am
September 24, 2008

AS panicked politicians prepare to fork over $1 trillion in taxpayer funding to rescue Wall Street, they've fingered regulation, deregulation, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the Community Reinvestment Act, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, both Bushes, greedy banks, greedy borrowers, greedy short-sellers and minority-home-ownership promoters for blame.

But there's one villain that has slipped notice: how illegal immigration, crime-enabling banks and open-borders Bush policies fueled the mortgage crisis. It's no coincidence that the areas hardest hit by the foreclosure wave - Loudoun County, Va., California's Inland Empire, Stockton and San Joaquin Valley, and Las Vegas and Phoenix - also happen to be some of the nation's largest illegal alien sanctuaries. Half of the mortgages to Hispanics are subprime. A quarter of all those subprime loans are in default and foreclosure.

Regional reports across the country have decried the subprime meltdown's impact on illegal-immigrant "victims." A July report showed that in seven of the 10 metro areas with the highest foreclosure rates, Hispanics were at least one-third of the population; in two of those areas - Merced and Salinas-Monterey, Calif. - Hispanics comprised half the population. The National Council of La Raza and its Development Fund have received millions in federal funds to "counsel" their constituents on obtaining mortgages with little to no money down; the group almost succeeded in attaching a $10 million earmark for itself in one of the housing bills passed this spring.

For the last five years, I've reported on the rapidly expanding illegal-alien home-loan racket. The top banks clamoring for their handouts as their profits plummet, led by Wachovia and Bank of America, launched aggressive campaigns to woo illegal-alien homebuyers. The quasi-governmental Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority guaranteed home loans to illegal immigrants.

The Washington Post noted in 2005: "Hispanics, the nation's fastest-growing major ethnic or racial group, have been courted aggressively by real-estate agents, mortgage brokers and programs for first-time buyers that offer help with closing costs. Ads proclaim: "Sin verificacion de ingresos! Sin verificacion de documento!" - which loosely translates as, 'Income tax forms are not required, nor are immigration papers.' "

Fraudsters also have engaged in house-flipping rings using illegal aliens as straw buyers. Among many examples the FBI cites: a conspiracy in Las Vegas involving a former Nevada First Residential Mortgage Company branch manager who directed loan officers and processors in the origination of 233 fraudulent Federal Housing Authority loans valued at over $25 million. The defrauders made and submitted false employment and income documentation for borrowers; most were illegal immigrants from Mexico. To date, the FBI reported, "Fifty-eight loans with a total value of $6.2 million have gone into default, with a loss to the Housing and Urban Development Department of over $1.9 million."

It's the tip of the iceberg. Thanks to lax Bush administration policies allowing illegal aliens to use "matricula consular cards" and taxpayer-identification numbers to open bank accounts, mortgage fraud has grown. Money-lenders still have no access to a verification system to check Social Security numbers before approving loans.

In an interview about rampant illegal-alien home-loan fraud, a spokeswoman for the US General Accounting Office told me five years ago: "Considering the size of Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Houston and other large cities throughout the United States known to be inundated with illegal aliens, I don't think the federal government is willing to expose this problem for financial reasons as well as for fear of political repercussions."

The chickens are coming home to roost. Law-abiding taxpayers are going to pay for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 08:02 AM

Link to the above editorial (Illegal Aliens & the Mortgage Mess), by Michelle Malkin, in the New York Post...

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09242008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/illegal_aliens__the_mortgage_mess_130482.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 08:03 AM

I notice Michelle doesn't make a distinction between Hispanics, and "illegal aliens".


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

German reactions to the crisis:
The World Shouldn't Have to Bear the Burden for America's Lapses (transl. from DER SPIEGEL)

Experts have also criticized the American rescue package for a number of other reasons.... "The government is only buying bad risks and, in doing so, nationalizing the losses." Dietrich adds that taxpayers won't share in any of the profits that the government hopes the stabilized market will bring about in the long run.
According to Kooths, instead of buying those responsible for the crisis out of it and calling on other countries to provide funds, the US should create political regulations that will prevent a situation like this from happening again in the future.


The 700B plan is only a short term help increasing the basic problem that the USA spend more than they produce. This crisis will be seen by future historians as the beginning of the downfall of the dollar.

It is a bit puzzling that such a conservative government forgets the market and recourses to Socialist (not in terms of who profits, but in terms of how to use the money) methods. Both, the former Socialist European countries and the Capitalist USA have forgotten that in the long run the value of money depends on productivity. During the last couple of years too many people in the USA have believed that one can make money out of nothing. Some can, for some time, but that comes at a price. I'm only sorry that in too many cases this price is not paid by the profiteers.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:25 PM

That's because the US government is not conservative. It's just corrupt. In my opinion, the US government is the most corrupt government in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:46 PM

Support Our Wall St. Bust
In Bush We Trust

Nothin's for nothin
Pay Your Wall Street Debt

Bush Voters
Should pay
the Wall St debt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:56 PM

Their profits are their profits, their losses are ours.

The Republican Party is in apparent conflict. I found this on a link:

"We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself."

-- Republican Party platform, 2008


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM

Don'y pay any attention to the guys behind the candidate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM

well pigs are flying and hell actually has frozen over - now that Comrade Bush has nationalized bear stearns aig and the frannies.. and spend 700+billion (clean with no strings attached) also Paulsons demands are that there be no accountability on his part - that he should be free of any legal review etc.. Only weeks ago he was saying the economy is fundamentally sound .. (I dont think they have a clue as to what theyre doing)

- Sweden went through a similar bubble and crash in the early 90s but they certainly didnt hand over the money no strings attached..

and now that congress is demanding a say in top managers salaries
those same wall st. bankers who made the mess are actually saying 'its not appropriate for Govt to decide salaries..'

Wolfgang is absolutely right about the rest of the world not being interested in bearing the burden when the US overspends and the dollar loses value.. (Which is why Cheney said that 'deficits dont matter'
they always knew the US could pass it on to the rest of the world -since the dollar is the worlds main currency, many nations have money in treasury bills, oil is traded in $s. The point is that a state taxes its citizens - an empire taxes other nations) So when the dollar devalues everyone else bears the burden.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 07:37 PM

duplicate post from other thread on bailout:

economic theories from the.......past?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 12:27 AM

from 1998 when the downfall of LTCM threatened the world economy..

step right up

and this one..

comrade bush


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 12:52 AM

I'm Ba-a-a-ck!...
Great posts from Rig,!!!..Finally someone else is waking up to the illegal alien debacle!! (I've certainly been the target of attacks for voicing(typing) my thoughts on the matter, but who cares?..I'm right, and now the lights are going on!)
Another thing to ponder,..the Federal Reserve is yet ANOTHER PRIVATE CORPORATION!! ...It is not a government agency..so, the question is(and should be asked loud and clear!!) "Is this just another 'hostile take over', of one corporation by another, using taxpayers money to fund it???" Once the 'Fed' 'prints(if you will)Read: Creates the money out of thin air, then charges the taxpayers (us),interest to put this make believe money into circulation, why not just get rid of the 'Fed'??, thereby eliminating a huge portion of the national debt, which is mostly just folly???? We are paying interest upon interest(compound interest) on money that never existed, till they said it did, increasing the national debt, inflation, and taxes to pay for it, when it was never(under the constitution, remember that??) authorized to print???? Now they want to print more, charge us for it, and are threatening us, with controlling our economy, when they don't even really have that power!!!...........but we got used to it, and no one objected, not even us writers!...probably would if certain heads weren't up certain asses! (Vote for me, vote for me,..its all bullshit!!!) ..Been telling you all along!
Maybe Little Hawk will interpret it for ya'.........(he's very good at that!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:06 AM

Watch this one, coming up...The 'government will Solve the illegal alien problem, tax problems, ID theft problem, with this one...Implanting microchips in the 'law abiding taxpayers'(citizenship won't matter)...which has been a goal for a while...now they have the reason to sell to the dumbed down public, of course minimizing Christianity will have to go hand in hand with it, because of ALL 'religions' in the world, Christianity, prophesizes the 'mark of the beast',...2000 years ago, that this is where it is headed. Laugh if you will, but also, consider it, and its ramifications!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:12 AM

Well, Sanity, the Federal Reserve was created by law, and its board of directors is appointed by the President. Its expenses are (largely) borne by the member banks, which makes it a quasi-government organization - not quite a "private corporation," as you contend.
I rather like the fact that it's paid for (mostly) by the banks that make use of it, but I think most people would agree that it's primarily a government entity. AMTRAK and the Postal Service are corporations, too - but they're also primarily government entities.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:17 AM

President Wilson signed it in, and publicly regretted it saying "What have I done to the country?" It can be undone, as well. It was enacted while congress was out for another one of its Holiday breaks...like the 'passing' of NAFTA, during Clinton's reign. ..It is NOT a government agency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:23 AM

"...Christianity will have to go hand in hand with it, because of ALL 'religions' in the world, Christianity, prophesizes the 'mark of the beast',..."


                  That's because people engaged in religion are basically beasts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:32 AM

The most corrupt in the world, CarolC? I can assure you the US government is a long way short of that achievement :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:35 AM

To give you an idea how bad the American economy is, Mexico is now calling for a fence along the border.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:43 AM

Joe,
The Federal Reserve was created by law...

well yes and no. It was created while Congress was not in session like an absentee appointment.

Morgan, Rockefeller, Farichilds and Ascott were the founders of the "law" to create a central bank (fed Reserve)that the US had tried to avoid.

FDR used the Fed Reserve for stimulus purchases and thus began the debt standard. Each administration from then on piled on more debt until today when we see we have finally reached the outer boundary of a now impossible debt to manage or hide.

The long term soultion wil demand the Fed Reserve to be put inside the Treasury department so that their request to create inflation will have to be approved by Congress.

Also the SEC will have to have farmeers guarding the hen house instead of FOXes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:49 AM

my disclaimer, I am not a PHD Senior Economist* and my views do not reflect upon anyone but myself and I bear not respondsibility for anyones actions base upon my observation, knowledge or percieved advice. I request to extend and or revise my remarks for acuracy and clarity.


*however I am married to one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:55 AM

In the meantime unemployment will double or triple over two years with or without the 700 bil.

It will be a time for more compassion or the streets will grow too mean to walk. While poor Republicans will be getting what some think they deserve for not listening or at least not listening to more than just one source, these people will be in pain. As Palin says "a world of hurt"
We all learn best from experience. The sad truth is many will not even survive to learn. Some will take their life and others will have it taken.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 12:53 PM

"...my disclaimer, I am not a PHD Senior Economist*..."


                Donuel - You're lucky! They've all been wrong since Reagan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:37 PM

NEither Rig nor GfS have provided any numbers to indicater that they care to discriminate between "Hispanic" and "illegal immigrant", in their rush to blame the suckers for the con job exercised on them by slick white boys with dreams of high finance.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM

Ther aren't any racist reactionairies posting here...is there?

Even Lou Dobbs has become a parody of himself lately.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:04 PM

Well, one thing's for sure: Whatever the economy does in the future, it won't be the wunnerful "let the market decide" free economy that's been so heavily bragged about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:28 PM

"Ther aren't any racist reactionairies posting here...is there?"


               No, there ain't!


   "NEither Rig nor GfS have provided any numbers to indicater that they care to discriminate between "Hispanic" and "illegal immigrant", in their rush to blame the suckers..."

                   What's the question? Is it racist to call Hispanics and illegal immigrants suckers? Or what is the number of illegal immigrants compared to the number of Hispanics, or...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:37 PM

I don't think anyone can find a government whose corruption is on the scale of that of the govermment of the US in terms of how much of the world is negatively impacted by it. Which to my thinking, makes the US government the most corrupt government in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: heric
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:42 PM

The suckers are renters, people who bought only as much house as they could afford, people who pay their debts (even if they could make a quicker gain by walking away from a devalued house), the people who paid off their homes, and our offspring.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM

heric - I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:58 PM

heic called me a sucker.

I bought my house with cash

I bought my car with cash

The republicans have taught me...

Save and you are a sucker

be prudent and you are a sucker


I do not want to pay a third party for my need to spend.
But now I have to pay for my neighbors mortgage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:02 PM

Tommorrow will live in infamy


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:11 PM

Heric:

My house is paid for. I am smart enough not to be suckered by slick mortgage sales people, but I am a native English speaker, college educated and hard trained in the school of hard knocks.

If I were gullible, excessively jopeful, or desperate I have had thousands of opportunities from these same hucksters to go into debt above my means to handle it.

None of them appeared to have any qualms about inviting, pressuring or luring me into a precarious situation.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:38 PM

renters are suckers... squatting is the in thing


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM

Why did people expect house prices to keep rising? This is not a crash, it's an uncontrolled landing. I saw pwoplw here buy places that had doubled in a single year, WTF--did they expect that it all would double again? There comes a point when $450,000 for some rooms and a place to take a crap is just a bit much. This is that point. Welcome to the brave new world. BUT, ya wanna take tow to one odds that Bush and Cheney's business interests and associates will do OK? Three to one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peace
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:58 PM

people, not pwoplw.

Also that was two to one odds

Kerisyte, I can't type worth s%%t anymore. Need glasses, preferably filled with scotch. I still won't be able to type, but I won't give a shit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:02 PM

"...I invested, I deposited, I voted every fall
Did I ever get a penny saved, them bastards took it all"

(Four Prominent Bastards, Ogden Nash)


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: heric
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:13 PM

>None of them appeared to have any qualms about inviting, pressuring or luring me into a precarious situation.<

I agree with you that there are innocents in this category as well, and that predatory lending practices should be fought with flamethrower intensity, because they can damage the hopes of small folks for decades of setback. However, I also don't think we should be a nation of whiners to the extent we can't accept the blame that lies with Main Street denizens. Neither of us knows the relative balance in the separate categories. But as Peace says, $430,000 for a couple of rooms and a place to crap (for zero down!!) was unsustainable and obvious. It was only a few years ago that the idea of buying a house you could ever pay for was an idea that went the way of the Dodo.

I still am mystified about Greenspan's quote from a few years back that you can't see a bubble when it is forming. We could see it as clear as day.
-----------------------------------

Frank Ahrens, Washington Post Staff Writer - Thursday, September 25, 2008

"The director of the Congressional Budget Office said yesterday that the proposed Wall Street bailout could actually worsen the current financial crisis.

During testimony before the House Budget Committee, Peter R. Orszag -- Congress's top bookkeeper -- said the bailout could expose the way companies are stowing toxic assets on their books, leading to greater problems.

"Ironically, the intervention could even trigger additional failures of large institutions, because some institutions may be carrying troubled assets on their books at inflated values," Orszag said in his testimony. "Establishing clearer prices might reveal those institutions to be insolvent."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:31 PM

"I still am mystified about Greenspan's quote from a few years back that you can't see a bubble when it is forming. We could see it as clear as day."


                   Yeah, that's the part that amazes me. A few years ago you could have scraped a drunk up off the sidewalk with a pitch fork any place in the country, and he could have told you this is exactly where we were headed. Why graduates of Princeton, Harvard, and Yale couldn't figure it out has to make one wonder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:41 PM

From: Peace
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM

Why did people expect house prices to keep rising? This is not a crash, it's an uncontrolled landing. I saw pwoplw here buy places that had doubled in a single year, WTF--did they expect that it all would double again? There comes a point when $450,000 for some rooms and a place to take a crap is just a bit much. This is that point. Welcome to the brave new world. BUT, ya wanna take tow to one odds that Bush and Cheney's business interests and associates will do OK? Three to one?

RIGHT ON THE MARK!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:53 PM

All of which proves, of course, they were drunks on the sidewalk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:09 PM

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/bail.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:49 PM

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/crash.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 01:17 PM

Excellent stuff, Donuel.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/bail-in.jpg


I spread it around

btw the farmers need fertilzer NOW but can;t get credit to buy it


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:08 PM

House Republicans walk out on crisis meeting in protest of not getting more deregulation provisions.

IS THAT PUTTING COUNTRY FIRST ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

The vote for independence from England had to be and was UNAMINOUS

The vote to save the country must also be UNAMINOUS.

But House Repubs are trying to look as if onlt the Dems did this to America


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 07:58 PM

''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:34 PM

To illustrate my point... http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/repubocrats.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:23 PM

"House Republicans walk out on crisis meeting in protest of not getting more deregulation provisions. IS THAT PUTTING COUNTRY FIRST ?"

                It's unclear, but it's certainly putting the people first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:08 AM

Two things of note: One of the sticking points is that this bill wants to give the 'Fed' unlimited rights to do the bailouts, without oversight or approval from Congress..(wr-o-o-o-ng!) That is one of the provisions NOT being widely reported. It would give the 'Fed' and bankers, unprecedented power, and in fact, is absolutely ridiculous!!
...and another note: The crisis was the uncontrollable ballooning of real estate prices, to unrealistic heights, cause a lot by predatory lending. What we see now, based on that, was inevitable!..for what it's worth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 08:34 AM

Can anyone advise me:

1) Is the US in recession or depression?
2) When does recession turn into depression?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:16 PM

Not sure what the time limit is, but the pundits on television say the difference between recession and depression depends mostly on the length of time it lasts.

             In the 1980s, for instance, the US went into a recession in 1981 and came back out in 1983. It went back into a recession again in 1984 and came out again a year or two later. They call this period a series of recessions, but it sure seemed like a depression to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:20 PM

I heard it put this way once,....
A Recession is when everybody you know is out of work..a Depression is when everybody is out of work, and so are you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:53 PM

"Is the US in recession or depression?"

It is not that simple.

What we had was a collapse in the price of houses. When a 4 bedroom / 2 bath house in LA's San Frenando Valley sold for $800 thousand, something had to give.

The yuppies, real estate speculators, along with massive immigration, pushed house prices well past the amount that working people could afford. When your product has no buyers, the price falls.

Much California real estate is worth 1/2 what it was in 2005. If owed $500K on a house that is worth only $350K. I would walk away from it too.

Banks are stuck with "bad paper" and construction worker are not working. Since they have no jobs, they cannot buy the new cars, and because...ad infinitum


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:01 PM

Funny. We haven't heard much from DougR lately. I wonder why?

(I think he's laying there, mashed down by a big piece of sky)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:17 PM

Maybe he got run over by the recession/depression!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:19 PM

And those are all good points, pdq. One has to wonder why the FED didn't see this coming, or maybe they did, but Greenspan was about to retire and he didn't want a slowdown to occur on his watch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:32 PM

Thanks, Rigs.

My opinion is that things were going perfecly at that time. We had 1% inflation and 4.5% unemployment. Probably the most perfect economy ever. Only a fool would rock the boat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 11:01 PM

I can't think of anybody I know who wouldn't walk up to you on the street in 2005 and 2006 and ask, "How long can this go on?"

               Are the people at the top of the food chain so insulated that the couldn't see this coming? They didn't rock the boat, they saw it sailing into the rocks along the shore, and steered right for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

Again, the recent trouble with banks started a long time ago when housing prices, in select area such as California, rose to levels that could not be justified. When the prices fell, people who were "upside down", meaning that their loan was for more than the house was worth, just packed up and left. Here are are some charts and graph to support that point:

                            median house price in California


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 02:04 PM

Yeah, it really shows you where it started, but why were the folks in the driver's seat unable to see it coming?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 10:05 PM

I believe folks were asking that same question back in nineteen-ought-twenny-nine.

Haven't learned much, have we?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 10:45 PM

Well, Don, it seems to me that what you are asking depends a lot on what is supposed to have been learned. The average guy in the street could see this coming ten miles away. But the folks on Wall Street who were raking in bonuses of tens of millions of dollars a year as long as they pretended not to see it, simply didn't see it.
                  Weird, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:26 PM

Indeed. As you say, a lot of folks did see it.

Lot's of folks love to dump on the regulations that FDR instituted back in the early thirties and howl "Socialism!!" And one of the major thrusts of the Reagan administration was to dismantle those regulations and controls. Anyone who wasn't into voodoo economics and the Great National Ponzi Scheme, and who had a sense of history, could well have predicted this--and some did.

I remember as a wee sprat hearing FDR's "fireside chats." One thing that gives me a tiny glimmer of hope is that Barack Obama talks a lot like FDR did back then.

We'll see. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:55 PM

Not actually a Ponzi Scheme as such, but a "bubble."

A bubble involves ever-rising (and unsustainable) prices in an open market, be they shares of a stock, housing prices, the price of automobiles, widgets, or anything else. As long as buyers are willing to pay ever-increasing prices, sellers can get out with a profit, and there doesn't really need to be a schemer behind a bubble. In fact, a bubble can arise without any fraud at all, for example, housing prices in a local market that rise sharply but eventually drop sharply because of overbuilding. Or cavalierly producing more products than the market can absorb (this was one of the contributing factors in the "Great Depression": warehouses full of stoves, refrigerators, automobiles, furniture, etc., that people either couldn't afford or didn't want, at which point the manufacturers started laying people off, creating even more people who couldn't afford to buy the surplus production--sound familiar?).

This, plus complete madness in the credit business. . . .

And all of this with those who are charged with keeping an eye on such things looking the other way.

A standard recipe for the soup the country is in right now.

Don Firth

P. S.   Nothing can continue to grow and expand without eventually falling on its face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 10:13 AM

"Nothing can continue to grow and expand without eventually falling on its face"

The Capitalist system must continue to expand to survive......I take it you would agree that Capitalism is bound to fail?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 10:36 AM

Isn't that what just happened?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 02:03 PM

Exactly!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 02:28 PM

Unregulated Capitalism creates an endless cycle of "boom and bust." We're in a "bust" phase at the present. Capitalism does function reasonably well if the proper government regulations are in place. That way, it's possible to have the best of both worlds.

The Fifties and Sixties (despite the social unrest), and somewhat beyond were relatively prosperous times for the United States. This was the legacy of the regulations instituted by the Roosevelt administration in the Thirties. But—business (although doing quite well, thank you) fretted and fussed under these regulations, and by a campaign of lobbying, buying "ethically challenged" politicians, and bankrolling the elections of anti-regulation politicians, they chipped away at them. Their big break came with the Reagan administration. It was pushed along by the administration of Bush the First. Bush the Second managed, if not to obliterate the regulations entirely, to see that they were ignored.

Et voila!!

How do you like your Capitalism now that it's essentially unregulated?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 02:58 PM

And now we've nationalized the banks; the auto companies are next!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 05:41 PM

It doesn't take a Ph.D in psychology and/or economics to understand that the driving force of Capitalism is greed. Nor does it take a Ph.D in psychology to realize what greed unbounded can lead to if not kept in check by personal ethics (don't count on it) or external limits.

Capitalism is not all bad. Indeed, the promise of wealth and prosperity for the entrepreneur is a powerful motivation for the development of products and services in the first place, and their continued improvement. But history has more than amply demonstrated that Capitalism without reasonable restraints produces cut-throat competition, monopolies, cheating on product quality and safety, and on through a whole litany of evils including slavery, or at the very least, near-slavery. And cycles of "boom and bust."

Therefore, laws and regulations.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 05:56 PM

Yesterday C-Span aired a three-hour interview with Kevin Phillips, the writer, bitter critic of the right wing GOP and all around political animal who worked briefly in John Mitchell's office under Richard Nixon. He used to be a Republican (he calls himself an Eisenhower Republican) but he became disillusioned under Reagan. You ought to hear his opinion of the Bushes.

He has written 13 or 14 books - I have only one, American Theocracy, but have read excerpts of others - and is articulate and persuasive. Bad Money is his latest one (I think) wherein he attacks the American reliance on the financial community instead of on productivity.

Check him out. I tend not to agree with him on each conclusion but I am aware that my opinion is not nearly as well informed as his.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 06:29 PM

Yeah, Ebbie, I discovered Kevin Phillips early on, heard him on radio and TV a lot (I wish I had seen that one!), and read a few of his books. I don't always agree with everything he says, but he sure knows where the bodies are buried and who put them there!

A most enlightening gentleman!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 09:02 PM

Don, you can find him on the show here on video: Kevin Phillips on InDepth

I wish there were more shows like In Depth. In three hours you can cover a lot of ground. I could wish presidential candidates and nominees would take advantage of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 11:02 PM

Thanks a million, Ebbie! Don't have time to watch it right now, but I'll catch it tomorrow.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 01:53 PM

I agree with almost everything Kevin Phillips says on the tape, but the most amazing thing to me is, while he dumps on all of the Bushes, he still champions the cause of Ronald Reagan. Reagan seems like the worst offender of them all.
                   You could make the case that he didn't have any idea what was going on pretty convincingly, but he was still the face on the policies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 02:57 PM

In my recollection he does not hold a brief for Reagan. Started out liking him but changed his opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 03:37 PM

When the free market had every center of power in their hands including the Supreme Court, the chief executive, the Congress, think tanks/media, the "free" market was then allowed to pursue any and every criminal activity with impunity.

The financial corporations are now the cheif domestic enemy to the United States and have defeated this country fir the next 20 years while walking away with untold trillions of dollars borrowed from future taxpayers that was said to be for stimulus and recovery.

All the Mr. Potters in this country have finally succeeded in destroying every Bedford Falls across this nation as well as other nations around the world. All the Bailly's have been crushed and all the homes will be forclosed through 2012 that can be forclosed despite the bail outs. $259 billion would have bought all the mortgages that were going into forclosure but only a fraction of one percent of the bail out money went to paying off bad mortgages.

The Mr. Potters of this world are mighty proud of themselves right now.


Historiclly you need only go back to Nixon when he canceled the Brentwood accord to see the begining of the bankrupting of the middle class worldwide. Reagan accelerated the free hand to financial corporations. Clinton and Bush one were one in the same when it comes to crippling labor. Bush two let all the evil in the mud to hatch out in the worst financial plague to infect the planet.

yet still there are traitors who call for a deregulated free market to take anything they want. The irony and tradgedy is that they already have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:12 PM

Suppose it's faily safe to say 'It has actually crashed now!'


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:32 PM

Yes sir! Ron Paul has been predicting this for years!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 10:37 AM

It's taken a long time for this reality to show up in print, but here it is from the Inverstor's Business Daily:


Fannie, Freddie And Now, Hannie
Ibd
Thursday January 15, 2009, 6:52 pm EST
Yahoo! Buzz Print Subprime Crisis: The media have pounded President Bush for a wave of Hispanic home foreclosures. But it was Democrats who launched a drive to loosen credit for Hispanics -- many of them illegals.

Democrats and their advocacy groups also prodded Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to buy the high-risk NINJA (no income, no job, no assets) loans they'd pressured banks to make to Hispanic immigrants. Now immigrants are defaulting on subprime mortgages in droves, adding to the toxic debt that is poisoning the financial industry.

Yes, Bush was "eager," as the Washington Post described it, to put more Hispanic families into their own homes, even setting a goal of higher minority homeownership soon after taking office.

But Bush didn't pressure lenders to adopt sloppy underwriting standards. Nor did he encourage Fannie and Freddie to underwrite subprime loans to meet quotas for minority lending.

That was done under the previous administration. The groundwork for disaster was laid by Clinton and his social engineers -- in this case, former HUD chief Henry Cisneros, now a major lobbyist for Latino homeownership.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:26 AM

I submit that the incentive for making low-quality loans was not CLinton, but Greed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:20 PM

Yes, I don't Clinton had much if anything to do with it. Cisneros had a lot to do with it. But it was greed on all sides, including the borrowers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 08:34 AM

So, despite everything that's been going on, the UK are going to keep the old system which has proved not to work, shame on Sarkozy & Merkel for giving in to Brown:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/07/financial-meltdown-gordon-brown-g20


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 11:17 AM

People, average people, will only see the after effects of the crash.
They will confuse the present and the past.
They do not see what is happening now. They only see the after image and think that is the current reality.

example:

FOLLOW THE GREEN DOT


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 11:19 AM

It works best if you stare only at the cross.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 12:30 PM

Nothing personal, but this statement made me smile: "...the UK are going to keep the old system which has proved not to work, shame on Sarkozy & Merkel for giving in to Brown."

Not "shame on the UK" but "shame on France and Germany"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 07:18 PM

Brown was the one who was given into!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 03:51 PM

" Sept. 9 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Reserve said 11 of its 12 regional banks reported signs of a stable or improving economy in July and August, adding anecdotal evidence that the worst U.S. recession in seven decades is over.

Five districts, including San Francisco, home to the biggest regional economy, "mentioned signs of improvement," the Fed said today in its Beige Book business survey, published two weeks before officials meet to set monetary policy. The exception was the St. Louis district, which said the contraction's pace "appeared to be moderating."

The central bank survey indicates that while the worst of the downturn may be past, the economy has yet to show broader growth. The Fed reported "flat" retail sales and "weak" labor markets, and cited some auto-industry contacts as saying the sales increases from government "cash-for-clunkers" subsidies may be temporary.

"We are slowly on the road to recovery," former Fed Governor Robert Heller said in an interview with Bloomberg Television. The Beige Book "confirms that we have turned the corner," he said.

The Standard & Poor's 500 Index increased 0.5 percent to 1,030.20 at 2:40 p.m. in New York after rising as much as 1.1 percent.

The outlook among many business contacts was "cautiously positive," the Fed said. "Loan demand was described as weak, and many districts reported that credit standards remained tight." ..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 06:17 PM

Foreclosures continue to rise.
One could say that compared to last year forclosures are only double instead of triple the months before, but that is a sad way to measure improvement.

Foreclosure rates have never been this high since the great depression.

An average of 8 banks a month are still being closed while and propped up by the FDIC

But there is nothing wrong with walking statistics on the sunny side of the street.

We all know the lag of winter's cold after the shortest day of the year is the worst.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 11:29 PM

Here's an insightful profile of Paul Krugman, economist, Nobel-winner, and NY Times columnist.
It gives some insight into the economy.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:19 AM

It's twelve pages long. Is there someplace the reader can just fing out what Krugman has to say about the economy without absorbing the life profile of Paul Krugman?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM

A second correction is still due the stock market which corrently only reflects the trades of large banks and hedge funds to make the market appear sound.

The second correction/crash will follow about the time enough 'people' start to buy into to the total recovery myth and plug some capitol back into the market. It will be a classic gotcha again scenario.

The actual value of stocks is still about 20% (or more) too high.

imho


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:23 AM

Rig:

Sometimes you just have to read as is writ.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:29 AM

Well, I will say that I think Milton Freidman has been totally discredited, but the right-wing-wakkos still hold him up as an example. I wonder what Krugman thinks of that?


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