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BS: Crash of U.S. Economy

Riginslinger 24 Feb 10 - 08:29 AM
Amos 23 Feb 10 - 10:23 AM
Donuel 23 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM
Riginslinger 23 Feb 10 - 06:19 AM
Amos 22 Feb 10 - 11:29 PM
Donuel 09 Sep 09 - 06:17 PM
Amos 09 Sep 09 - 03:51 PM
Riginslinger 08 Sep 09 - 07:18 PM
Ebbie 08 Sep 09 - 12:30 PM
Donuel 08 Sep 09 - 11:19 AM
Donuel 08 Sep 09 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 08 Sep 09 - 08:34 AM
Riginslinger 20 Jan 09 - 01:20 PM
Amos 20 Jan 09 - 11:26 AM
Riginslinger 20 Jan 09 - 10:37 AM
Riginslinger 18 Jan 09 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 18 Jan 09 - 10:12 PM
Donuel 26 Dec 08 - 03:37 PM
Ebbie 26 Dec 08 - 02:57 PM
Riginslinger 26 Dec 08 - 01:53 PM
Don Firth 25 Dec 08 - 11:02 PM
Ebbie 25 Dec 08 - 09:02 PM
Don Firth 25 Dec 08 - 06:29 PM
Ebbie 25 Dec 08 - 05:56 PM
Don Firth 25 Dec 08 - 05:41 PM
Riginslinger 25 Dec 08 - 02:58 PM
Don Firth 25 Dec 08 - 02:28 PM
Don Firth 25 Dec 08 - 02:03 PM
Riginslinger 25 Dec 08 - 10:36 AM
akenaton 25 Dec 08 - 10:13 AM
Don Firth 24 Dec 08 - 04:55 PM
Don Firth 24 Dec 08 - 04:26 PM
Riginslinger 23 Dec 08 - 10:45 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 08 - 10:05 PM
Riginslinger 23 Dec 08 - 02:04 PM
pdq 23 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM
Riginslinger 20 Dec 08 - 11:01 PM
pdq 20 Dec 08 - 09:32 PM
Riginslinger 20 Dec 08 - 09:19 PM
Riginslinger 20 Dec 08 - 09:17 PM
Don Firth 20 Dec 08 - 04:01 PM
pdq 20 Dec 08 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Dec 08 - 02:20 PM
Riginslinger 20 Dec 08 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 20 Dec 08 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Sep 08 - 02:08 AM
Riginslinger 26 Sep 08 - 09:23 PM
Donuel 26 Sep 08 - 08:34 PM
GUEST,Sawzaw 26 Sep 08 - 07:58 PM
Donuel 26 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:29 AM

Well, I will say that I think Milton Freidman has been totally discredited, but the right-wing-wakkos still hold him up as an example. I wonder what Krugman thinks of that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:23 AM

Rig:

Sometimes you just have to read as is writ.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM

A second correction is still due the stock market which corrently only reflects the trades of large banks and hedge funds to make the market appear sound.

The second correction/crash will follow about the time enough 'people' start to buy into to the total recovery myth and plug some capitol back into the market. It will be a classic gotcha again scenario.

The actual value of stocks is still about 20% (or more) too high.

imho


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:19 AM

It's twelve pages long. Is there someplace the reader can just fing out what Krugman has to say about the economy without absorbing the life profile of Paul Krugman?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 11:29 PM

Here's an insightful profile of Paul Krugman, economist, Nobel-winner, and NY Times columnist.
It gives some insight into the economy.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 06:17 PM

Foreclosures continue to rise.
One could say that compared to last year forclosures are only double instead of triple the months before, but that is a sad way to measure improvement.

Foreclosure rates have never been this high since the great depression.

An average of 8 banks a month are still being closed while and propped up by the FDIC

But there is nothing wrong with walking statistics on the sunny side of the street.

We all know the lag of winter's cold after the shortest day of the year is the worst.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 03:51 PM

" Sept. 9 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Reserve said 11 of its 12 regional banks reported signs of a stable or improving economy in July and August, adding anecdotal evidence that the worst U.S. recession in seven decades is over.

Five districts, including San Francisco, home to the biggest regional economy, "mentioned signs of improvement," the Fed said today in its Beige Book business survey, published two weeks before officials meet to set monetary policy. The exception was the St. Louis district, which said the contraction's pace "appeared to be moderating."

The central bank survey indicates that while the worst of the downturn may be past, the economy has yet to show broader growth. The Fed reported "flat" retail sales and "weak" labor markets, and cited some auto-industry contacts as saying the sales increases from government "cash-for-clunkers" subsidies may be temporary.

"We are slowly on the road to recovery," former Fed Governor Robert Heller said in an interview with Bloomberg Television. The Beige Book "confirms that we have turned the corner," he said.

The Standard & Poor's 500 Index increased 0.5 percent to 1,030.20 at 2:40 p.m. in New York after rising as much as 1.1 percent.

The outlook among many business contacts was "cautiously positive," the Fed said. "Loan demand was described as weak, and many districts reported that credit standards remained tight." ..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 07:18 PM

Brown was the one who was given into!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 12:30 PM

Nothing personal, but this statement made me smile: "...the UK are going to keep the old system which has proved not to work, shame on Sarkozy & Merkel for giving in to Brown."

Not "shame on the UK" but "shame on France and Germany"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 11:19 AM

It works best if you stare only at the cross.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 11:17 AM

People, average people, will only see the after effects of the crash.
They will confuse the present and the past.
They do not see what is happening now. They only see the after image and think that is the current reality.

example:

FOLLOW THE GREEN DOT


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 08:34 AM

So, despite everything that's been going on, the UK are going to keep the old system which has proved not to work, shame on Sarkozy & Merkel for giving in to Brown:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/07/financial-meltdown-gordon-brown-g20


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:20 PM

Yes, I don't Clinton had much if anything to do with it. Cisneros had a lot to do with it. But it was greed on all sides, including the borrowers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:26 AM

I submit that the incentive for making low-quality loans was not CLinton, but Greed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 10:37 AM

It's taken a long time for this reality to show up in print, but here it is from the Inverstor's Business Daily:


Fannie, Freddie And Now, Hannie
Ibd
Thursday January 15, 2009, 6:52 pm EST
Yahoo! Buzz Print Subprime Crisis: The media have pounded President Bush for a wave of Hispanic home foreclosures. But it was Democrats who launched a drive to loosen credit for Hispanics -- many of them illegals.

Democrats and their advocacy groups also prodded Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to buy the high-risk NINJA (no income, no job, no assets) loans they'd pressured banks to make to Hispanic immigrants. Now immigrants are defaulting on subprime mortgages in droves, adding to the toxic debt that is poisoning the financial industry.

Yes, Bush was "eager," as the Washington Post described it, to put more Hispanic families into their own homes, even setting a goal of higher minority homeownership soon after taking office.

But Bush didn't pressure lenders to adopt sloppy underwriting standards. Nor did he encourage Fannie and Freddie to underwrite subprime loans to meet quotas for minority lending.

That was done under the previous administration. The groundwork for disaster was laid by Clinton and his social engineers -- in this case, former HUD chief Henry Cisneros, now a major lobbyist for Latino homeownership.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:32 PM

Yes sir! Ron Paul has been predicting this for years!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:12 PM

Suppose it's faily safe to say 'It has actually crashed now!'


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 03:37 PM

When the free market had every center of power in their hands including the Supreme Court, the chief executive, the Congress, think tanks/media, the "free" market was then allowed to pursue any and every criminal activity with impunity.

The financial corporations are now the cheif domestic enemy to the United States and have defeated this country fir the next 20 years while walking away with untold trillions of dollars borrowed from future taxpayers that was said to be for stimulus and recovery.

All the Mr. Potters in this country have finally succeeded in destroying every Bedford Falls across this nation as well as other nations around the world. All the Bailly's have been crushed and all the homes will be forclosed through 2012 that can be forclosed despite the bail outs. $259 billion would have bought all the mortgages that were going into forclosure but only a fraction of one percent of the bail out money went to paying off bad mortgages.

The Mr. Potters of this world are mighty proud of themselves right now.


Historiclly you need only go back to Nixon when he canceled the Brentwood accord to see the begining of the bankrupting of the middle class worldwide. Reagan accelerated the free hand to financial corporations. Clinton and Bush one were one in the same when it comes to crippling labor. Bush two let all the evil in the mud to hatch out in the worst financial plague to infect the planet.

yet still there are traitors who call for a deregulated free market to take anything they want. The irony and tradgedy is that they already have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 02:57 PM

In my recollection he does not hold a brief for Reagan. Started out liking him but changed his opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 01:53 PM

I agree with almost everything Kevin Phillips says on the tape, but the most amazing thing to me is, while he dumps on all of the Bushes, he still champions the cause of Ronald Reagan. Reagan seems like the worst offender of them all.
                   You could make the case that he didn't have any idea what was going on pretty convincingly, but he was still the face on the policies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 11:02 PM

Thanks a million, Ebbie! Don't have time to watch it right now, but I'll catch it tomorrow.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 09:02 PM

Don, you can find him on the show here on video: Kevin Phillips on InDepth

I wish there were more shows like In Depth. In three hours you can cover a lot of ground. I could wish presidential candidates and nominees would take advantage of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 06:29 PM

Yeah, Ebbie, I discovered Kevin Phillips early on, heard him on radio and TV a lot (I wish I had seen that one!), and read a few of his books. I don't always agree with everything he says, but he sure knows where the bodies are buried and who put them there!

A most enlightening gentleman!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 05:56 PM

Yesterday C-Span aired a three-hour interview with Kevin Phillips, the writer, bitter critic of the right wing GOP and all around political animal who worked briefly in John Mitchell's office under Richard Nixon. He used to be a Republican (he calls himself an Eisenhower Republican) but he became disillusioned under Reagan. You ought to hear his opinion of the Bushes.

He has written 13 or 14 books - I have only one, American Theocracy, but have read excerpts of others - and is articulate and persuasive. Bad Money is his latest one (I think) wherein he attacks the American reliance on the financial community instead of on productivity.

Check him out. I tend not to agree with him on each conclusion but I am aware that my opinion is not nearly as well informed as his.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 05:41 PM

It doesn't take a Ph.D in psychology and/or economics to understand that the driving force of Capitalism is greed. Nor does it take a Ph.D in psychology to realize what greed unbounded can lead to if not kept in check by personal ethics (don't count on it) or external limits.

Capitalism is not all bad. Indeed, the promise of wealth and prosperity for the entrepreneur is a powerful motivation for the development of products and services in the first place, and their continued improvement. But history has more than amply demonstrated that Capitalism without reasonable restraints produces cut-throat competition, monopolies, cheating on product quality and safety, and on through a whole litany of evils including slavery, or at the very least, near-slavery. And cycles of "boom and bust."

Therefore, laws and regulations.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 02:58 PM

And now we've nationalized the banks; the auto companies are next!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 02:28 PM

Unregulated Capitalism creates an endless cycle of "boom and bust." We're in a "bust" phase at the present. Capitalism does function reasonably well if the proper government regulations are in place. That way, it's possible to have the best of both worlds.

The Fifties and Sixties (despite the social unrest), and somewhat beyond were relatively prosperous times for the United States. This was the legacy of the regulations instituted by the Roosevelt administration in the Thirties. But—business (although doing quite well, thank you) fretted and fussed under these regulations, and by a campaign of lobbying, buying "ethically challenged" politicians, and bankrolling the elections of anti-regulation politicians, they chipped away at them. Their big break came with the Reagan administration. It was pushed along by the administration of Bush the First. Bush the Second managed, if not to obliterate the regulations entirely, to see that they were ignored.

Et voila!!

How do you like your Capitalism now that it's essentially unregulated?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 02:03 PM

Exactly!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 10:36 AM

Isn't that what just happened?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 10:13 AM

"Nothing can continue to grow and expand without eventually falling on its face"

The Capitalist system must continue to expand to survive......I take it you would agree that Capitalism is bound to fail?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:55 PM

Not actually a Ponzi Scheme as such, but a "bubble."

A bubble involves ever-rising (and unsustainable) prices in an open market, be they shares of a stock, housing prices, the price of automobiles, widgets, or anything else. As long as buyers are willing to pay ever-increasing prices, sellers can get out with a profit, and there doesn't really need to be a schemer behind a bubble. In fact, a bubble can arise without any fraud at all, for example, housing prices in a local market that rise sharply but eventually drop sharply because of overbuilding. Or cavalierly producing more products than the market can absorb (this was one of the contributing factors in the "Great Depression": warehouses full of stoves, refrigerators, automobiles, furniture, etc., that people either couldn't afford or didn't want, at which point the manufacturers started laying people off, creating even more people who couldn't afford to buy the surplus production--sound familiar?).

This, plus complete madness in the credit business. . . .

And all of this with those who are charged with keeping an eye on such things looking the other way.

A standard recipe for the soup the country is in right now.

Don Firth

P. S.   Nothing can continue to grow and expand without eventually falling on its face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:26 PM

Indeed. As you say, a lot of folks did see it.

Lot's of folks love to dump on the regulations that FDR instituted back in the early thirties and howl "Socialism!!" And one of the major thrusts of the Reagan administration was to dismantle those regulations and controls. Anyone who wasn't into voodoo economics and the Great National Ponzi Scheme, and who had a sense of history, could well have predicted this--and some did.

I remember as a wee sprat hearing FDR's "fireside chats." One thing that gives me a tiny glimmer of hope is that Barack Obama talks a lot like FDR did back then.

We'll see. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 10:45 PM

Well, Don, it seems to me that what you are asking depends a lot on what is supposed to have been learned. The average guy in the street could see this coming ten miles away. But the folks on Wall Street who were raking in bonuses of tens of millions of dollars a year as long as they pretended not to see it, simply didn't see it.
                  Weird, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 10:05 PM

I believe folks were asking that same question back in nineteen-ought-twenny-nine.

Haven't learned much, have we?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 02:04 PM

Yeah, it really shows you where it started, but why were the folks in the driver's seat unable to see it coming?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

Again, the recent trouble with banks started a long time ago when housing prices, in select area such as California, rose to levels that could not be justified. When the prices fell, people who were "upside down", meaning that their loan was for more than the house was worth, just packed up and left. Here are are some charts and graph to support that point:

                            median house price in California


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 11:01 PM

I can't think of anybody I know who wouldn't walk up to you on the street in 2005 and 2006 and ask, "How long can this go on?"

               Are the people at the top of the food chain so insulated that the couldn't see this coming? They didn't rock the boat, they saw it sailing into the rocks along the shore, and steered right for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:32 PM

Thanks, Rigs.

My opinion is that things were going perfecly at that time. We had 1% inflation and 4.5% unemployment. Probably the most perfect economy ever. Only a fool would rock the boat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:19 PM

And those are all good points, pdq. One has to wonder why the FED didn't see this coming, or maybe they did, but Greenspan was about to retire and he didn't want a slowdown to occur on his watch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:17 PM

Maybe he got run over by the recession/depression!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:01 PM

Funny. We haven't heard much from DougR lately. I wonder why?

(I think he's laying there, mashed down by a big piece of sky)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:53 PM

"Is the US in recession or depression?"

It is not that simple.

What we had was a collapse in the price of houses. When a 4 bedroom / 2 bath house in LA's San Frenando Valley sold for $800 thousand, something had to give.

The yuppies, real estate speculators, along with massive immigration, pushed house prices well past the amount that working people could afford. When your product has no buyers, the price falls.

Much California real estate is worth 1/2 what it was in 2005. If owed $500K on a house that is worth only $350K. I would walk away from it too.

Banks are stuck with "bad paper" and construction worker are not working. Since they have no jobs, they cannot buy the new cars, and because...ad infinitum


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:20 PM

I heard it put this way once,....
A Recession is when everybody you know is out of work..a Depression is when everybody is out of work, and so are you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:16 PM

Not sure what the time limit is, but the pundits on television say the difference between recession and depression depends mostly on the length of time it lasts.

             In the 1980s, for instance, the US went into a recession in 1981 and came back out in 1983. It went back into a recession again in 1984 and came out again a year or two later. They call this period a series of recessions, but it sure seemed like a depression to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 08:34 AM

Can anyone advise me:

1) Is the US in recession or depression?
2) When does recession turn into depression?


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:08 AM

Two things of note: One of the sticking points is that this bill wants to give the 'Fed' unlimited rights to do the bailouts, without oversight or approval from Congress..(wr-o-o-o-ng!) That is one of the provisions NOT being widely reported. It would give the 'Fed' and bankers, unprecedented power, and in fact, is absolutely ridiculous!!
...and another note: The crisis was the uncontrollable ballooning of real estate prices, to unrealistic heights, cause a lot by predatory lending. What we see now, based on that, was inevitable!..for what it's worth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:23 PM

"House Republicans walk out on crisis meeting in protest of not getting more deregulation provisions. IS THAT PUTTING COUNTRY FIRST ?"

                It's unclear, but it's certainly putting the people first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:34 PM

To illustrate my point... http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/repubocrats.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 07:58 PM

''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

The vote for independence from England had to be and was UNAMINOUS

The vote to save the country must also be UNAMINOUS.

But House Repubs are trying to look as if onlt the Dems did this to America


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