BS: Crash of U.S. Economy

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:55 PM

The loans made to immagrants are 75% more likely to be PAID IN FULL as opposed to long time US residents.

The multi family culture is one reason why mortgages to immagrants are paid, they have 4 payers.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:36 PM

Immigrants and not the same thing as illegal immigrants. And what happened to zoning laws?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:57 PM

"Why are these institutions making home loans to 'illegals' in the first place?" ~   KB in Iowa

Well, that is perhaps the 64 billion dollars question. The answer lies in the atempt (actually demand) that the "face" of the average first-time home buyer match the "face" of real America. That was one of the obsessions of the Clinton administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:01 PM

legal, illegal its all money !?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:24 PM

The following fact probably deserves its own thread, but there are too many right now. I just hope you are all sitting down for this:














The financial-services industry's share of total American corporate profits rose from 10% in the early 1980s to 40% at its peak last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:50 PM

and now the govt is spending close to a trillion buying up all those risky mortgages. Who says govt has no place in business?

incredible.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:33 AM

"Why are these institutions making home loans to 'illegals' in the first place?" For the same reason that people climbed Mt Everest. Because they're there.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:58 AM

'a new world order that can keep the human race going in a sustainable way' - I just remembered, this is it:

http://www.greeneconomics.org.uk/

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 07:20 AM

Of course, with the bankruptcy laws being what they are now, a legal American citizen is trapped for life trying to pay off whatever debt they accrued. An illegal alien can just go back to where he/she came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:50 AM

Again, new immigrants pay off their mortgage at twice the success rate of 3rd generationers.

You should be ashamed. It is obscene to lay any fault at the feet of immigrants for the sub prime scheme.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:04 PM

I admire the leadership of George W Bush and acknowledge the total vindication of his entire administration by making this Banking crises the most successful banking crises to be entirely paid for the United Sates of America.



Its as though we had our cake and now get to eat it all over again.

JP Morgan

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:10 PM

Whatever happened to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

it got bought out by those who would destroy our country.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM

"The financial-services industry's share of total American corporate profits rose from 10% in the early 1980s to 40% at its peak last year."

Heric - How can this be? What is going on? Is this just the Republican way of creating fear and panic and then coming to the rescue?

pdq - "US citizens, for the most part, are barred from buying Mexican real estate." I know plenty of non-Mexicans who own property in Mexico. The banks hold the title in trust but they still own it. They do have regulations in place to stop the purchase of waterfront but as you know, there are plenty of beachfront condos down there. I doubt if they are Mexican owned.

I don't thin financial failure can be blamed on immigrants. Maybe its the developers who have built vast, tract housing in Arizona and elsewhere and now cannot sell the homes. Individuals do not create such a huge financial loss. My guess is that its the speculators who have walked away from their loans.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

"I know plenty of non-Mexicans who own property in Mexico. The banks hold the title in trust but they still own it."


                         That doesn't sound like ownership to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:42 PM

"You should be ashamed. It is obscene to lay any fault at the feet of immigrants for the sub prime scheme."


                           Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:17 PM

40% of all corporate profits - How can this be I really do not know. Talk about a paper economy - and one not worth the paper . . . . These are people who are supposed to be selling investors on the value of the actual economy. They provide no real value other than as a part of the "service economy."

It means we get to ponder long and hard about Donuel's assertions of "intentionality," on a very large scale of extraordinary complexity.

So much blame, so much greed, so much incompetence at all levels on Main Street, Wall Street, and on Pennsylvania Ave.

Even the inncoent investors from overseas and huge pension and trust funds that we are supposed to save were clearly buying things they didn't understand - a level of great fault in itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:28 PM

I think the largest component comes from this: "Now, most financial firms also invest for themselves. They use partners' or shareholders' money to place bets on stocks, bonds and other securities -- so-called "principal transactions." Merrill and other retail brokers, which once served individual clients, have ventured into investment banking. So have some commercial banks that were barred from doing so until the repeal in 1999 of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933."

As a very small example, brokerage houses are of course prohibited from using knowledge of a client's impending activity to jump in ahead of a clearly stated intention. But if they have a huge client that has a pattern - e.g. buying or selling in chunks, at intervals, then it would be hard to prove they were making their own decisions because of that confidential knowledge.

I also read recently that one of the huge investment banks was recently putting together a massive acquisition of some kind, gathering mega-investors to make it happen, while failing to disclose that they were shorting the same investment. I'd have to google a long while to find it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:50 PM

Here it is: Morgan Stanley and HBOS. To be fair, MS said "it did nothing wrong."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/jeremy-warner/jeremy-warners-outlook-morgan-stanley-in-hot-water-over-hbos-short-874929.html

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:41 PM

The whole thing boils down to pyramid selling of risk. In the end, it became a reverse lottery.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM

A Nation of Village Idiots explores the greed and hypocrisy behind the financial meltdown.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 07:30 PM

Rig -

Read the article linked by Amos and then tell us if you still blame immigrants for the economic meltdown.

As to owning property in Mexico:
http://www.mexcandirect.com/ownership-Mexico

"You have all the rights of a property owner in the U.S. or Canada, including the right to enjoy the property, sell the property, rent the property, improve the property, etc."

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: pdq
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:39 PM

From the website you suggested, dianavan:

...the Mexican Constitution Prohibits foreigners from purchasing or owning real estate within 60 miles of an international border or within 30 miles of the Mexican Coast.

I rest my case. (actually, Mexico offers a 50 year lease with a possibility of a 50 year renewal)

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 10:46 PM

Sometime in the very early 1900's Jack London got involved in a scheme to develop property in Mexico. He invested heavily, and got a bunch of his friends to invest, and when they went to close the deal, they found out the Americans couldn't own property in Mexico. Of course the other party was in Mexico, so there was nothing anyone could do about it. They all got bilked.
             London talks about writing books furiously after that, just to pay the bills. I think that's when he went to Reno to call the Jack Johnson/J.J.Jeffries fight.
             In any event, Mexican land barons don't like foreigners meddling in their business.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:00 PM

"Read the article linked by Amos and then tell us if you still blame immigrants for the economic meltdown."


                I don't think anyone suggested that immigrants are to blame for the economic meltdown. First, one needs to distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. From there, assuming you are only talking about "illegal immigrants," the point that I was trying to make--and I think pdq agrees with--is that illegal immigrants contributed to the housing crisis.
               The point that I was trying to make in all of this is: if a lender is holding paper on a foreclosed house, and the buyer is legalling in the country, the lender has some recourse against the buyer. If the buyer is not legally in the country, the buyer can just go home. He/she has little motivation to try to save the situation. There is nothing the lender can do; the lender should not have made that loan.
               That might account for why Stockton, CA, and other places in the California Central Valley have higher rates of foreclosure than the rest of the country. I think it is the reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: meself
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:11 PM

Or was it when he went to Sydney, Australia, and wrote up the great Tommy Burns as a bum in order to rationalize the defeat of a white man by a black man - thereby contributing to the destruction of Burns' career?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: meself
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:21 PM

That last referring to Jack London and his treatment of Burns - a sore point with me!

As for illegal immigrants - aren't they the ones who built the houses in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:17 AM

Anyone can google my link and read the quotes in context.

Pdq and rig have a sleazy way of twisting the facts.

"Because the Mexican Constitution Prohibits foreigners from purchasing or owning real estate within 60 miles of an international border or within 30 miles of the Mexican Coast, a new, safe method of holding title was created. This new instrument, modeled after the one in Monaco, allows ownership through a Mexican Property Trust, called a "Fideicomiso". This is a trust agreement, much like an estate trust, giving you all the rights of ownership."

The bank holds the trust to which you are the beneficiary.

The laws have changed since the days of Jack London.

Rig, you say, "the lender has some recourse against the buyer." Like what? Foreclosing on the house? I can't see what difference it would make if you were in the country legally or not. Besides that, the number of 'illegals' buying property is probably pretty small since they are working below minimum wage and sending most of it home. If you think immigrants are such a big problem, back it up with some figures.

Wake up! This is white collar criminals being bailed out with your tax dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: DougR
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:21 AM

It ain't crashed, and it ain't gonna crash. So you lefties just relax and continue to gnash your teeth. The economy will recover and you can continue to hope for the worst. But it ain't gonna happen.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:28 AM

If it doesn't crash, it will only be because trillions of taxpayer dollars will have been pumped into it to shore it up. Talk about tax and spend, big government, socialist politicians, eh? The Republicans have shown themselves to be the biggest tax and spend (and borrow and spend), big government, socialists of any political party in the US. (Of course, when government is wedded to big business, as the US government is becoming under the Bush administration, the more accurate term is fascism.)

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:59 AM

"Besides that, the number of 'illegals' buying property is probably pretty small since they are working below minimum wage and sending most of it home."


                     dianavan - Yes! I would agree the number is small. But back to the point--if the forclosure rate is 8.6% in Dayton, Ohio, and 8.7% in Stockton, CA, I think the difference could be accounted for by illegal aliens buying homes.
                     In addition to that, the last thing American needs right now is for some illegal alien to be working here and sending his/her money out of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:00 AM

"As for illegal immigrants - aren't they the ones who built the houses in the first place?"


                Yes, and again, that's part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

"Rig, you say, "the lender has some recourse against the buyer." Like what? Foreclosing on the house?"


                If the lender has reason to suspect that the buyer is hiding assets--like sending money out of the country--the lender can seek a deficit judgement.
                In addition, once somebody goes through forclosure, now that the bankrupcy laws have been rewritten, that buyer will be an indentured servent for the rest of his/her working life. An illegal alien, of course, won't have to deal with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM

DougR: Of course it won't crash short term. But we are talking about $7,000 per home on the taxpayers, (to be funded progressively by income tax), plus the costs of a new government agency, plus the costs of the independent firms they will subcontract to, plus the interest on all of that for decades, and ignoring the further devaluation of the dollar.

The economy will be dragging this new deadweight behind it for a long time, while other things remain unfunded and we can't control Iraq or Afghanistan. And we are addressing but a fraction of the bad debt, anyway.

I'll bet Barry Goldwater is dry heaving in his grave while you laugh at the "lefties."

Meanwhile we get to elect a new Republican administration which gives us these inspirational words: "It's so nice to be in a state where they appreciate hockey, good huntin', good fishin', and great football."

Goldwater would vote Democratic in this election.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:59 PM

>>>It ain't crashed, and it ain't gonna crash. So you lefties just relax and continue to gnash your teeth. The economy will recover and you can continue to hope for the worst. But it ain't gonna happen.

It's crashed enough so that G W Bush has handed the Presidency to Paulson who is acting now like FDR.

"Conservative" Economic theory has crashed with the economy. Say goodbye to your usual point of view Doug, or you, Krauthammer and Palin will be the last lonely voices in a huge, Alaska-like wilderness.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:16 PM

The giants are folding--LEhman, Bear Sterns, MErril Lynch -- and the state of the nation is upside down in debt, with foreclosures rippling through the middle class like a bad dose of Montezuma's revenge.

It's as close to a crash as we have come since 1929.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM

We lost our health care

Let's just consider the money. The public bailout of insurance giant (becoming a dwarf) AIG is estimated at $85 billion. According to one report, that's more than the Bush administration spent on Aid to Families with Dependent Children during his entire time in office. That amount of money would also pay for health care for every man, woman, and child in America for at least six months.

Considering another 800 trillion dollars taken off the top from our future labor, you can see we have lost education money as well.

Regardless of the protests by fools that there is no crash,   the market has crashed.
The measures being taken now are an attempt to make a slow mothion crash over 15 years HOWEVER, there is no gurantee that it will succeed, it is unproven and it will not solve a thing in either case..

Like eating a poiosn mushroom you may feel fine for a couple weeks...but the by products of its metabolization is wehen the poison finally hits.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM

I just can't help being fascinated by DougR, if only because he is brave enough to express in words what some millions of idiots truly do believe - ie that having to plough millions of billions of tax dollars into the western economies doesn't mean there's any kind of crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: heric
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

"Mr. Paulson on ABC's 'This Week with George Stephanopoulos' said it would be extraordinary if costs did not fall below the expenses associated with purchasing the assets."

Am I reading this right? Did he say that he expects the added costs of the new agency and the outsourcing will in all likelihood be less than the $700 billion worth of purchases?

-------------------------------


"[L]ater on CBS's 'Face The Nation,' Paulson said there is no guarantee Treasury won't be forced to ask for more than the $700 billion it is currently seeking.'"

Why didn't he just ask for a quajillion in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM

Add another trillion to the national debt

It stands at 11.2 trillion (officially)

We here the words unprecedented. http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/wallstunt.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM

I just hope the Congress doesn't do like it did with the Patriot Act, and they don't pass the damn thing without reading it first.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:46 PM

There are still some financial biggies out there. What is to keep them from insolvency? And if they are threatened by bankruptcy, do we just add that bill to the total?

Hey, it's only money...

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 10:38 PM

Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, the last two independent investment banks, will become bank holding companies, the Federal Reserve said Sunday night, fundamentally altering the landscape of Wall Street.

The move fundamentally changes one of the mainstay models of modern Wall Street, the independent investment bank, soon after the federal government unveiled the biggest market rescue since the Great Depression. It heralds new regulations and supervisions of previously lightly regulated investment banks. It is also the latest signal by the Federal Reserve that it will not let Goldman or Morgan fail.

The move comes after the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers and the near-collapses of Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch.

Now, Goldman and Morgan Stanley, which have been the subject of merger speculation in recent weeks, can become direct competitors to larger firms like Citigroup, JPMorgan Chase and Bank of America. Those firms combine investment-banking operations with the larger capital cushions that come with retail deposits, giving them a stability that pure investment banks lack.

JPMorgan acquired Bear Stearns this spring in a fire sale brokered by the federal government, while Bank of America has agreed to buy Merrill Lynch for $50 billion. Barclays of Britain agreed to buy the core capital-markets business of Lehman Brothers out of bankruptcy late last week.

Announced without fanfare on Sunday night, the move signals the final end to the Glass-Steagall Act, the epochal legislation of 1933 that signaled a split between investment banks and retail banks. A law passed in 1999 repealed the earlier regulation, though Goldman and Morgan remained independent investment banks.

Morgan Stanley had sought other ways to bolster its capital, and had been in advanced talks with China's sovereign wealth fund and others about raising as much as $30 billion, people briefed on the matter said Sunday night.

By becoming bank holding companies, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley gained some breathing room in the immediate term. But it likely lays the groundwork for additional deal making. Given the expected bank failures this year, it is possible Goldman and Morgan Stanley could seek to buy them cheaply in a "roll-up" strategy.

Prior to the move, federal regulations prohibited the two investment banks from pursuing such deals. Indeed, Morgan Stanley's recent talks with Wachovia revolved around Wachovia buying Morgan Stanley.

Being a bank holding company would also give the two access to the discount window of the Federal Reserve. While they have had access to Fed lending facilities in recent months, regulators had planned to take away discount window access in January. ... (NYT)

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:21 PM

"firms like Citigroup, JPMorgan Chase and Bank of America. Those firms combine investment-banking operations with the larger capital cushions that come with retail deposits, giving them a stability that pure investment banks lack."


Amos, its the combination of high risk investment tradeing and holding banks that makes for a highly toxic and unstable banking system!

The division of the two was what reformed the banking system after the market crash of 1930.


There will be plenty of double speak for the months to come as the final insulting theft continues unabated.

Paulson is telling Congress things completely opposite of what he tells the people on Sunday talk shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:26 PM

So far Wall Street still wants McCain to win.
I suspect they don't want to leave any money on the table.
US suckers might still be worth another $trillion dollars.

Remember Enron was able to bankrupt California. The 3 families that basicly own all the investment banks can bankrupt the whole nation 24/7 for 15 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:34 PM

What would be the point of doing that? (Not that I doubt they'd try.) But wouldn't that be killing the goose that layed the golden egg? I mean, wouldn't it be more profitable for them to bleed us to death slowly instead of just killing us right off?

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

"...But Mr. Paulson insists that he wants a "clean" plan. "Clean," in this context, means a taxpayer-financed bailout with no strings attached — no quid pro quo on the part of those being bailed out. Why is that a good thing? Add to this the fact that Mr. Paulson is also demanding dictatorial authority, plus immunity from review "by any court of law or any administrative agency," and this adds up to an unacceptable proposal.

I'm aware that Congress is under enormous pressure to agree to the Paulson plan in the next few days, with at most a few modifications that make it slightly less bad. Basically, after having spent a year and a half telling everyone that things were under control, the Bush administration says that the sky is falling, and that to save the world we have to do exactly what it says now now now.

But I'd urge Congress to pause for a minute, take a deep breath, and try to seriously rework the structure of the plan, making it a plan that addresses the real problem. Don't let yourself be railroaded — if this plan goes through in anything like its current form, we'll all be very sorry in the not-too-distant future. "

---

Good advice from Paul Krugman, NYT

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: GUEST,Mark Calendar
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

The whole WORLD is about to be bankrupted. Order out of chaos. The bankers who funded the Axis AND the Allies in WW2 are still running the show. They created that chaos so they could divide the world, consolidate and go on to the next phase, which was the Cold War. The older generation was told that FDR was "sick" at Yalta and gave half the world to the Soviet Union, but the U.S. Senate approves treaties, so was the whole SENATE sick, too? The Cold War was orchestrated.

The last 150 years has been carefully guided to bring us to where we are now. A fiat money system was created. Paper backed by nothing. Now, 2/3rds of the countries in the world have a fiat centralized banking system, and the wealthy banking families run all of it. They've made the U.S. dollar the default world currency, and now they're printing as much as they can to buy as much as they can. Real assets like aquifers, oil fields, airlines. When everything crashes, your COUNTRY will belong to international bankers who bought everything with the U.S. dollar. Simple as that. So what if the dollar is destroyed--it did its job.

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:04 AM

Right on the money, Mark Calendar (if there's any left...)

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:14 AM

Mebbe and mebbe not.

Bear in mind that this "$700 billion dollar bailout" is neither. In large part it involves loans, not expenditure of money for bad paper.

So it isn't so much a bailout as an intermediary cushion or shock absorber.

Or so I understand. The critical issue is whether oversight and constitutional limitations should apply, versus a kindo f czar-like power to the Treasury to take up troubled assets.

The other big question mark is the picture of collapse being offered as the immediate consequence of not approving this course of action.
Individual firms going down because they mismanaged is a natural consequence of ineptitude and bad luck and shouldn't be rewarded.

At the same time, an unknown range of interdependencies exist which could go down in a cascading effect with far-reaching secondary consequences. I don't know how wide and deep those consequences could be.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Crash of U.S. Economy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:03 PM

Bush is holding the threat of "if you don't act now" but if the Congress does then they will
be opening the door for repeat offenders.

The crooks will be coming back.