Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning

Subject: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: GUEST,a fan
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:31 PM

Bernard Manning; britain's funniest comedian died today. He was accused of being racist, sexist and homophobic, but he was funny. goodbye big man you'll be sadly missed!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: GUEST,Not a Fan
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:42 PM

There must be a reason why no-one else has commented in over five hours. I wonder why?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:46 PM

Here I was thinking it was another false Maggie Thatcher obit...

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:50 PM

a bigot and a bully -he will not be missed.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:57 PM

I did not like the jokes and I did not like the style. I found the humour to be based on the, "We are all smarter than that idiot" type of thinking. He was a technically good comedian with good timing and he knew how to work his audience.
Whether or not Bernard Manning was a racist is more of a moot point. Reading about him, I think it is more likely that he misjudged the effect of his humour. Fortunately, relatively few people are wilfully racist or cruel. I can't find it in me to condemn him outright - especially at a time when people are grieving for him. It is quite possible that I could have liked the man while disliking his show. That would be true of more than one person, whom I have known.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Morticia
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:57 PM

Troll alert

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:59 PM

I should add that in terms of talent, I felt he was not in the same league as a Peter Cook, a Spike Milligan or indeed any of the Beyond the Fringe/Monty Python/The Goodies generation of comedians. His material was very traditional Northern club stuff - and the best of that either.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:06 PM

He was one of the lesser funny men on "The Comedians"....His 'talent' was overshadowed by Frank Carson, Ken Goodwin, Charlie Williams   and as I remember Bernard went on to the very 'blue' jokes as well as the racist etc.
I found some of his humour funny!
Best wishes to his family who I am sure loved him.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: JeremyC
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:08 PM

I'm relieved to see that this is not a thread about Stephen Fry or any members of the League of Gentlemen. I don't think I ever caught Bernard Manning on video, so I don't know anything about him.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Rog Peek
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:17 PM

That Stan Boordman of the infamous 'Focker' dabacle was asked to pay tribute says it all!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:22 PM

Never heard of him. From the description, I'm glad no one ever imported him here.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:31 PM

Bernard Manning's humour was dirty, near the bone and whether we liked it or not It was funny.

It cut through the PC bullshit like a knife.

I remember Bernard being interviewed by Caroline Aherne on TV.
Caroline was giving him shit because of the contentof his jokes calling him racist homophobe ect.
Bernard asked, "What would you do if you came to one of my shows and took exception to my jokes"   Caroline answered "I'd Bloody well walk out thats what".
Quick as a flash back came Bernard "Oh I don't like the sound of that; You're Irish ain't ya.......If you leave everybody leaves!!"

It was in the middle of the IRA bombing campaign in England...Poor Caroline was rendered speechless....not an easy thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:47 PM

Never heard of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 05:55 PM

He was a complete a-hole, an ignorant, bigoted unfunny git. Jeez, that would look good on his gravestone. And that, for those who don't know him, is approximately as tasteful as his so-called humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 06:03 PM

He was a comedian?

I thought he bred turkeys?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Bert
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 06:12 PM

Like Kendall says "never heard of him."

So I doubt if he was as funny as Frankie Howerd, Kenneth Williams, Jimmie Edwards, Kenneth Horn or Johnnie Ray or the Two Ronnies or, or, or....!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: GUEST,Not a fan either
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 06:14 PM

He will be missed, but not sadly

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 06:46 PM

Nice one, GUEST,jOhn! That was a damn sight funnier than any joke he ever told.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: redsnapper
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:00 PM

May he rest in peace.

I did not like his "humour".

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:01 PM

Thought this was about Tony Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:24 PM

He was an arsehole.

Delighted to see the back of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:32 PM

Sympathy for his family? Yes, definitely, but I had considerable sympathy for his family when he was alive and they had to put up with him.

He was bigoted, homophobic, self obsessed, arrogant, and unfunny, and of course he had his bad side too. I WON'T MISS HIM!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: GUEST,a fan
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:47 PM

The big man told it like it was in the streets of Manchester and any other big city in Britain, for that matter. If you've never heard of him go out and find some of the tapes and DVd's of him. Judge for yourself and don't let the PC brigade stop you from having a "REET GOOD LAUGH, PET"!

His club in Manchester was always worth a visit - he was a gentleman, tho' a man of his time. He couldn't help that - called it as he saw it - and that's funny enough for me. No unfunny modern, sanitised humour for him. Building site brutal: a man in a man's world(in his time). No gloss; no pretention to sophistication - but bloody funny!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 09:12 PM

"So I doubt if he was as funny as Frankie Howerd, Kenneth Williams, Jimmie Edwards, Kenneth Horn or Johnnie Ray or the Two Ronnies or, or, or....!!!" - Bert.

Exactly, Bert. Now these men were funny. Bernard Manning was a man of his time. In the 70s, no-one questioned the content of his humour. Thankfully, after the 70s, we did. However, he was a man and we should sympathise with any man's passing.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Big Phil
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 03:11 AM

He just told it like it is, no time for the PC, or tree hugging brigade.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 03:26 AM

I thought this was going to be about the queen....the whole royal family is a joke.

Subject: Obit: Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:00 AM

Bernard Manning aged 76 has died, ok he wasn't to some people taste, however I thought he was funny, mind you there were some jokes that he told I thought was a bit terrible so RIP Bernard Manning.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:17 AM

Good riddance.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bernard Manning
From: Dreadnought
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:20 AM

Doctors have described his condition as "satisfactory".

Subject: RE: Obit: Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:21 AM

There's a thread on this down below, which, love him or hate him, is where he belongs.

Subject: RE: Obit: Bernard Manning
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:22 AM

Shouldn't this be in the Something nasty is lurking thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:36 AM

Any mention of Bernard Manning or anyone of similar obnoxious ilk always seems to bring out out the anti-PC brigade. Wear your anti-PC badge with pride! Go on, of course it's OK to offend women, black people, Jews, homosexuals and the Irish as much as you like! Haven't these bloody people got ANY sense of humour? They ought to grow thicker skins!

I think we need a fight-back. You can actually live your life quite happily without offending any of these groups, occasional unintentional lapses aside. To listen to the anti-PC brigade you'd think we were trampling on their God-given rights and forcing them to live under a form of linguistic tyranny. Not a bit of it. Being "un-PC" is no more than being insensitive and downright lazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:58 AM

Steve Shaw...you are a fool.

My post regarding the CA interview was to illustrate the hypocrisy of the PC brigade.
It is composed of people who would object to jokes, cartoons ect, yet support the slaughter of innocent people for whatever ideology was fashionable at any given time.

Try to see a little further than the end of your nose.

In todays Times, the much loved Frank Carson described Bernard Manning as a "wonderful man" apparently whenever Frank entered the room Bernard would turn to someone else and remark "Can anybody smell semtex" I assume Frank is a big enough man to give and take..

My politics and Bernard Mannings were about as far apart as you can get, but I liked him for his humour in the same way as I like many here who are politically opposed to me.

Like all on the left, my ideology contains plenty of hypocrisy...Good for Bernard for keeping my feet on the ground.
Much of the hatred directed towards B.M. is simply because the truth hurts....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 05:10 AM

Hmm. Why don't you tell me what you really think of me! :-) If your earlier post was intended to do what you say it was intended to do I think you need to have another go.

Civility costs nowt, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 05:26 AM

Please accept my apologies...I thought you had misunderstood my previous post.

As far as a PC "fight back" is concerned, it's a bit of an oxymoron, as to fight for any principle seems to be absolutely non-PC.

The whole idea of words being banned seems crazy to me.   Last week on BBC radio 4, I had to listen to intelligent presenters referring to the " N" word as if the listeners were children.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 05:26 AM

. . . the PC brigade . . . is composed of people who would object to jokes, cartoons ect (sic) yet support the slaughter of innocent people . . .

Yeah, have another go. Ake. What you said is complete, unsubstantiated nonsense of the sneering and smearing variety propagated by your 'hero'. It surprises me greatly if this is actually your view.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 05:29 AM

to fight for any principle seems to be absolutely non-PC

Good grief!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 05:35 AM

Steve Shaw has a point. As much as I hate Political Correctness, (it allows santimonious prigs to continually sit on judgement on us,) it did stop jokes being told at the expense of others, which is a good thing. The best jokes are ones that tell on the person telling the joke or should be on unspecified people. It should not be at the expense of someone because of their ethnicity, race, creed, or whatever. Instead of calling it political correctness, we should call it politeness. Can anyone argue against politness?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 05:38 AM

Calm down Diane....My names T****** not Trotsky   :0)....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 05:44 AM

Wow! All this bile just because a 'comedian' died!

Chill out, guys

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 05:56 AM

Many of those who sit in PC judgement on those who make jokes about racial stereotypes and other unfashionable subjects are quite happy to condone other less overt but equally insidious forms of disrespect.
A good example is The Office, where the character David Brent is a social inadequate, and this is the basis of much of the humour of many of today's comedy shows.
It is excused because people see it as almost true to life, and many say, "Oh we have someone just like that in our office" I would suggest that they do not, and would not dream of, laughing in the face of this real life person that they know. They are however happy to sit in the security of their own home and do so.
So many of today's 'Reality TV' shows are based on exploiting people's foibles, yet they are watched avidly.
Funny that the PC brigade scorned the old practice in Zoos, of holding a 'Chimp's Tea Party', but many are happy to watch people being treated in the same way on TV.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:02 AM

By the way all you PC brigade why are so many of our society excluded from the PC "umbrella".   What about all thoe born "Illegitimate" who are forced to listen to their situation being used as a term of abuse....could it be that they are not voluble or visible enough to warrant PC protection?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:15 AM

I doubt if we'll get much agreement, but my impression of Manning's popularity is that those who laughed at his jokes did so because they wished to stereotype the targets in the same way Manning did. His rise to fame covered the period of Enoch Powell, who deliberately and cynically exploited racism in an attempt to build a political power base, and Alf Garnett, an attempt to lampoon racist attitudes that backfired rather badly. Whether Manning was personally racist/ sexist/ homophobic isn't the issue; he was most appreciated by those who were have those prejudices, he knew it, and he made his career out of it.

It's important to distinguish between those who break "PC" taboos simply because they are taboos, and those who wish to return to open expression of the hatreds behind the taboo phrases. And the iconoclasts have to realise that those others exist and judge the probable effects of their words.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:22 AM

Some people laughed at some of his jokes, because they were funny.
I had no time for the man, I found him repulsive, but he made a living, so can't have been that much of a social pariah.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:26 AM

Exactly, PMB.
That's all the stuff I was busy trying to formulate.
If Mr Manning really was, as you sugggest, simply exploiting the prejudices of the pig-ignorant to further his career, this is far worse than simply expressing his own views, however vile.

Giok: I've never watched The Office or Big Brother. Didn't feel the need.
Though the difference between BM's in your face blatherings and that sort of thing is that the latter presents a situation and allows the viewer to think and make up their own mind about the behaviour, whereas BM reinforced and encouraged such prejudice.
I know which is the more dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:52 AM

In The Office Ricky Gervais was taking the pee out of himself. So was John Cleese in Fawlty Towers. They would deny, rightly, that were creating exact stereotypes of anyone. They were not propagating damaging messages in either case, but the skill of their writing lay in the fact that they focussed accurately on some traits in their main characters which a lot of us have which we can laugh at.   As for Death Us Do Part, I don't agree that it backfired. It was courageous for its time and questioned, in the ridiculous character of Alf Garnett, many predigested attitudes of the time that usually went unquestioned, at least far more so in those days than now. Alf hardly came out of any of it with dignity. I should like to know in what sense it backfired, other than you may not have found it funny. As for denigrating people born outside marriage by the use of the derogatory "bastard," it's now so far removed from its original meaning in its everyday usage that it's perfectly ridiculous to suggest that every time it's used it's an offence to such persons, even more so because these days it's perfectly legitimate to be illegitimate anyway! And in Oz it isn't even always derogatory. "G'day, how are you, you old bastard!" :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:58 AM

While the performer is not 'portraying a particular person' the members of the audience are identifying the character with someone they know.
If Gervais was taking the pee out of himself, why was he using someone else's name?
G

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:02 AM

Steve clearly can speak for himself, but he surely meant that Gervais's character was taking the piss (yes, I did watch some of it once). RG is an actor and was using someone else's name because he was playing a part, not necessarily being himself. It's called drama and it's what actors do.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:05 AM

apparently whenever Frank entered the room Bernard would turn to someone else and remark "Can anybody smell semtex".

Even if it was funny the first time he said it - that will give you an idea of his originality.

I am northern working-class background, I know loads of similar people, and they all thought he was a racist pig.

As for the "making a living so he must have been good" argument - heroin and arms dealers make a good living too.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:14 AM

"but he made a living, so can't have been that much of a social pariah. .......Me

"making a living so he must have been good" ....... Folkie Dave

Spot the difference?
G

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:46 AM

I misinterpreted what you said that is clear.

However - if he "was making a living" and he "was not that much of a social pariah" somebody thought must have thought he was good.

Ask the Pennine Hotel at Derby if he was ever invited back there!

(For those not familiar with the story in 1995 Manning in his usual charming way picked on two black waitresses during a dinner and whilst they were waiting on tables subjected them to a string of racist jokes. The hotel was fined £30,000).

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:46 AM

A "social pariah" means someone who most people find pretty repulsive.   Since "most people" doesn't mean "all people" that can still leave plenty of room for making a living.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: guitar
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 08:26 AM

I liked Bernard Manning because unlike these PC people he wasn't scared to speak his mind, in other words he was more honest than some people I know and he was funny, as Frank Carson says people that don't like him they don't have a sense of humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: guitar
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 08:33 AM

I'm a fan of him as well, and as for these 'people' that say good riddance and great news, don't have any respect for their fellow human beings and yet they say that they believe in PC

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 08:34 AM

Odd but so far no-one has mentioned the enormous amount of charity work he did outwith the glare of publicity, often for those very same groups that he was accused of hating and ridiculing.

In reading about him in todays papers it becomes obvious that those who knew him all speak very highly of him, those who didn't, as we see here don't.

He did go across to the USA and he "played" in Las Vegas, his crack there, around the time of Nixon's impeachment, was that they should never have subjected their elected leader to such a process of humiliation, they should have just allowed Ted Kennedy to give him a lift home. He went down a storm and was offered a very lucrative contract over in the US but turned it down.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: guitar
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:52 AM

I forgot about that

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 11:48 AM

Re Fawlty Towers.

You say - 'They would deny, rightly, that were creating exact stereotypes of anyone'

Actually Fawlty Towers WAS based on a real life hotel manager.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Rog Peek
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 12:24 PM

I heard a great one on the way to work today:

"Bernard manning will get a surprise when he meets God and finds that she's black!"

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: GUEST,a fan
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 03:15 PM

What a divided, opinated lot you are out there! I have been following this debate throughout and I can't help but wonder why one man has caused such strong feelings amongst certain people. Is it because we found a man funny? The black woman God created Bernard to make people laugh: she'll be delighted to have him back where he'll be appreciated.

'Languistic tyranny': language has slowly become a victim of people and groups with their own agendas. Words have been hijacked by groups; phrases have been made taboo. A hypocritical media has fuelled panic among certain groups because a word or phrase has been used. The end of the 70s saw the end of reasoned debate -as this thread clearly demonstrates. Eveyone must watch what she says!

PS BM was still Britain's funniest commedian!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: GUEST,a fan
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 03:37 PM

Modern comedy offends no one. The funniest shows of the 'Post Manning Age' were: "Have I got News for You" with Angus Deyton in the chair (removed by the hypocrites) and "Spitting Image" (which offended everyone). To offend no one is nice (nice is such a bland, meaninglesss word, isn't it?) and the comedy is equally bland. A woman stand-up comedian cracked a so-called joke on BBC TV the other night: "I watched the 'Shining' the last night and the leading man reminded me of a young Jack Nicholson," You couldn't make this shite up.

I love Jo Brand's 'in your face' comedy, because it offends.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain's greatest comedian is dead
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 03:42 PM

Basil was indeed inspired by a real hotel manager but he was hardly a stereotype of hotel managers in general.   John Cleese did not set out to create a stereotype. Anyway, flippin' 'eck, anyone who can say they find Bernard Manning funny but not Basil Fawlty...well, stone the crows is all I can say!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,a fan
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 03:56 PM

Talking of Jo Brand and offending people, reminded me of the time she silenced the puppet, Basil Brush. They were both on the same football comedy programme and Basil had been trying to score cheap sexist points off Jo. She stunned the presenters, had the audience in stitches and silenced the terrible Brush, when she said: " Any more out of you and I'll stick you up my fanny." There was no "Boom Boom" from Basil.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 03:59 PM

Wear the fox hat!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 01:22 AM

Some very interesting views here, I mainly agree with Akenaton though!

And also if you strip 'humour' down to basics it's ALWAYS about someone or something being ridiculed, there is always the 'butt' of the joke, so, if it's not OK to take the piss out of religion/race/sexuality etc then it shouldn't be OK to take the piss out of anything should it? so why not ban humour altogether as an offensive thing? I honestly think that's where we're headed!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:09 AM

In the early 90s, before anyone knew who he was, John Thompson (Cold Feet, etc) used to open for Steve Coogan. He did a character called Bernard Right-on, who was clearly based on Bernard Manning. But he was announced before coming on stage as being a Northern club comedian who had had a "road-to-Damascus conversion" after meeting Claire Short at a political function. So on he comes - velvet dickie bow, purple dinner jacket, sideboards, drinking a pint of mild and puffing on a fag. And his Bernard Manning impression was spot-on.

"There was a black fella..." the audience tenses. "A Jew, and a lesbian, all walked into a bar." The audience waits...

"What a lovely example of an integrated community." And the audience was in hysterics.

And on it went - all these racist and homophobic jokes given excessively PC endings. It was brilliantly observed, and very funny.

I don't think anything Bernard Manning actually did in his act was half as clever.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:41 AM

these new comdians are not funny Jo brand and their ilk just think it's funny to swear and be sexist, racist, and everything else, they just are not funny maybe that why they are alterive comdians because they are the oppiste of comedy.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:56 AM

I've just read your 'joke' and it is not funny

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:12 AM

At the end of the day it's only a joke, and those who don't think it's a joke well where's your sense of humour, I watch these 'comedians' and I find them not funny, but mimd you we all have different sense of humour and we find different things funny.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:22 AM

"I've just read your 'joke' and it is not funny "

I don't care, actally. Nothing Bernard Manning ever said made me laugh, but at least Jon Thompson's act had some thought and cleverness about it, and was enjoyably subversive. Not just, "Oh look, there's a black fella. He's lazy and stupid, with a big willy. Isn't that hilarious?"

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:34 AM

what is clever about making a statement that's all it is a statement not a joke.

Did I say that I found Bernard Manning funny, yes sometimes, but some of his stuff was a bit near the bone I too sometimes didn't he was funny but these people like Jon Thomson or Jo Brand are not funny they're about as funny as a having toothache.

I was watching a prograame and Jo Brand was on and hardly anyone laughed at her 'joke'.

so much fo being funny but there you go.

I didn't come here to pick a fight with anyone.

And where did I say or even Bernard Manning say "Oh look, there's a black fella. He's lazy and stupid, with a big willy. Isn't that hilarious?". but that's your 'humour'

I just hate Political correctness that all and I'm not the only one.

that's these people that just sit on the fence and are afraid to speak their minds, anyway the man's dead so some respect, I mean who would like someone to be disrespctful to a member of family when they die.

let bygones be bygones.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:44 AM

let's not fight over this, you have your heroes and I have mine, you and I find different things funny.

lets agree to disagree

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:11 AM

I've got a toothache at the moment... frankly it's better than having to watch Bernard Manning and his offensive material. I never liked it in the '70's when it was OK to laugh at racist jokes, I don't like them now. I hope I'm "politically correct", I know that sometimes I slip, but I'm willing to learn and change. I'm certainly not afraid to speak my mind, such as it is, but I don't sit on any fence. I try to make a gate in it.

I'm sure the man himself was a good person, did chariddy work and so on,   The man may have been good, the way he made his living wasn't. What is it with most people when they are dead? Suddenly they're sainted and venerated regardless of how they behaved in life.

Last week, whilst walking down Whitehall, London, I got caught up in a protest. On one side of the T junction was a group of men in headscarves and khaki, On the other, a group of women in burkhas, some with infants in their arms. On the third corner, a group of men with short hair and white faces.   The abuse, hatred and vitriol directed by this last group towards the women was incredible. The comments they were bawling across the street were remarkably similar to the "jokes" that Bernard Manning told throughout his career.

I'm not a fearful person - I wouldn't have moved to London if I were - but it struck me then, that of all the people on that road, the ones that scared me most were the third group, the group that is gaining a greater political foothold in my area.

Much as I hate London, I love being in an area that has such a fantastic mix of colours, creeds and abilities. It's the continual propogation of segregation that breeds fear, mistrust and hatred, and I'm sorry if you think otherwise, that's your right, but it's "humour" such as that shared by Manning that encourages and condones it.

LTS

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Nick
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:15 AM

Heard a suitably tasteless joke yesterday -

What's black and doesn't work?














Bernard Manning's kidneys

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Nick
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:18 AM

Sorry - liver not kidneys.

Offally confused

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:22 AM

I agree with you LTS

what has Jon Thompson and Joe brand and their fellow comdians done to help their fellow man, they trapese around an african village and stand there and say 'this village really needs a new school/hospital' and so just pick up the phone and just give whatever money you have to... and it will only cost £30,000 to build, well why don't they go to bank and lift out £30,000 of their own money and give that to the african village, and this is true about all other famous men and women, they want the people that can ill afford to do this but these rich people have what is known as short arms and deep pockets.

at lest Bernard Manning gave money to charity and raise a lot as well.

As I say I try and be Politcally correct but like you I sometimes slip as well. and the jokes of the 1970's were funny then but not now.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:33 AM

I remeber a girl said to Frank Carson of being racist because he told Irish Jokes, and he said but i'm Irish, so how can he racist by telling jokes about his own kind, and himself

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:02 AM

what about the goodies, I mean they were not to bad, but mind you they did come from the 1970's

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:07 AM

Let's get rid of this idea that because he did work for charity that made it OK to tell racist jokes.

If I deal in hard drugs and then give half the money to charity it doesn't make the drug dealing any better. It is the way he earned his living that is in question.

I remember a girl said to Frank Carson of being racist because he told Irish Jokes, and he said but I'm Irish, so how can he racist by telling jokes about his own kind, and himself.

Of course it is not OK to tell jokes that depend on crude stereotyping whatever your nationality.

Ireland is one of the "tiger" economies of Europe and one of the reasons is because (in general) it has such a highly-educated and young workforce. Ever heard an Irish joke that relies on the fact that the Irish are well-schooled, and have an economy based on electronics and high levels of skills? Or is the stereotyping nearly always based on how unintelligent the Irish are - which is a travesty of the truth?

As Brendan Behan once said "The Irish were an educated nation when the English were still running around in woad"

And that's stereotyping too.......

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Rog Peek
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:17 AM

I guess what we're talking about comes between 'political correctness' and 'anything goes' and of course we all draw our line according to our own take on it. For me, Bernard Manning often operated well below, (or above depending on your viewpoint) where I draw the line.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:29 AM

I once won a digital radio off the Radio Times by writing their letter of the week.

I won't defend Bernard's jokes, but it does seem to me that people wilfully misunderstand him - particularly the Radio Times's smart arse interviewer, who usually spends his sycophantic life crawling up the arses of the stars. He sensed that Bernard had few defenders and tore into him. I just hate that sort of intellectual bullying.

I can't remember what exactly I said in my letter, but approximately:-
Alternative comedy nights charging fifteen quid a ticket, Cambridge Footlights Review, Caroline Aherne (comedy genius though she is) with her invited audience - there was none of that with Bernard Manning. he wasn't like Winnie the Pooh that had to stay in Hundred Acre Wood afforded by invited tv audiences - he had become the grotesque that was Bernard Manning by going out in the real world, and by working very rough clubs that anybody can walk into off the street for a few pence.

he had made himself into what he was, and there was no mistaking his intention - in a roomful ordinary bods you could lose Michael Palin as an accountant or a teacher - but Bernard Manning looked funny. That's what he did with his life.

People who slag him off have generally no idea of the creative effort that goes into making anything - let alone turning oneself into a fount of that kind of charisma. In some ways he reminded me of the late blues singer Gerry Lockran, and the young Davy Graham - just extraordinary looking. There is a frisson of excitement such extraordinary characters carry with them.

Roll on the day when we have the Campaign for Real Entertainers - instead of the latest tosser soap star or pretty boy Simon Cowell decides is going to be a 'star'.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:33 AM

Liz wrote:

"On the third corner, a group of men with short hair and white faces.   The abuse, hatred and vitriol directed by this last group towards the women was incredible. The comments they were bawling across the street were remarkably similar to the 'jokes' that Bernard Manning told throughout his career."

That says it all. Manning and his dodgy ilk served only to legitimise verbal abuse of minority groups in the eyes of his fans. If a successful public figure can say it then it must be OK. A great role model for all those people who went to his club. He claimed he wasn't a racist (I'd dispute that), but even if he wasn't he was helping to perpetuate a culture in which it was deemed acceptable to reinforce crude racial stereotyping. I'd like his defenders here to tell me what good this did in terms of promoting harmony among people of different races, cultures and religions. I hear he was banned from some clubs. A pound to a penny the BNP wouldn't have banned him.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:59 AM

I wonder how many of the people here who are slahhing Bernard off have actually seen his act, or are the just repeating the often untrue hearsay passed on by the PC brigade.

Stan Boardman is a truly offensive comedian, and a traitor to his class, unlike Bernard Manning.

eric

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:12 AM

So we either love Manning to bits or we're "the PC brigade." God, how predictable. As for untrue hearsay, a few minutes ago I just idly googled "Bernard Manning BNP" and came up with (apart from his doings with the BNP) some "lovely" jokes of his. Are you pretending that he didn't say what he said? Go on, have a look! Bloke went to South Africa looking for a job. The factory manager gave him a revolver and told him to go out and shoot six niggers and a rabbit. The bloke said "Why do I have to shoot a rabbit?" He got the job. What's the difference between a Paki and a bucket of shit?   The bucket. Hilarious stuff and so useful for promoting good relations! He said what he said and it can't be unsaid and the internet will preserve it for ever more. That is not untrue hearsay. It came out of his filthy mouth, it's full of hate and spite, and was most decidedly not made up malevolently by the PC brigade!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,chalky
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:14 AM

"traitor to his class" - ha,ha, ha

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:20 AM

I have never seen his act. I have heard him on the radio. And there is plenty of his material on the internet.

At a police force charity dinner near Manchester, Manning targeted the single black officer in a crowd of 300, regaling him with lines such as "Having a night out with nice white people? Isn't this better than swinging from the trees?" The show was secretly filmed for World in Action and questions were asked in parliament. Ken Livingstone asked John Major, the then prime minister, to "condemn the use of the word 'nigger' by the comedian Bernard Manning, and endorse the comments of the local chief constable that that was a vile, racist performance".

Manning was apparently unabashed because a few months later he offended two black waitresses at a Round Table dinner at the Pennine hotel, Derby, using words such as wog, nigger and sambo. That cost the hotel £30,000 for each waitress.

He was a racist bigot and needs to be treated as such.

All the rest, his lightning quick timing etc is a mere a bagatelle. Hitler had good timing when he spoke too.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:27 AM

no that was the point - you don't have to like him. he developed his 'scorched earth' style in places were they didn't have to like him.

Places where it takes a brave man to stand up there with a guitar and a load of popular songs. he went there with tuxedo, and by all accounts it worked.

I just get fed up with pwoplw who haven't the intelligence to appreciate creative effort..... its like those people who say Billy Connolly just gets up there and swears. Okay, well you get up ther and swear ...see if you can hold an audience.

Bernard Manning succeded with some of the shittiest audiences on the planet. Okay you don't get it........lets hope St Peter does.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:30 AM

In fact I hope St Peter puts some of these buggers on the same cloud as bernard telling his crap jokes, they deserve it.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:55 AM

Right - so to be true to your working class roots you have to be racist, sexist and homophobic?

"let alone turning oneself into a fount of that kind of charisma." Yes! In Louis Theroux's interview with BM, as he was interviewed eating his dinner off his lap wearing nothing but his dirty-looking underwear, I thought, "Wow - what a fount of charisma."

"He claimed he wasn't a racist (I'd dispute that)" ...so, presumably, would the waitresses at that Derbyshire hotel who were subjected to his vile bullying racism, as pointed out earlier by Dave.

You know, I've met a fair few racists in my time. Most of them will start very dodgy conversations with the words, "I'm not racist, but..." They seem to think only hood-wearing and cross-burning constitutes racism. Well ,the most insidious and harmful types of racism (and sexism and homophobia) are the little things that happen every day, which help to legitimise abhorrent points of view. As liz cogently pointed out earlier, people like Manning legitimise the views of racist thugs.

Nice legacy.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:02 AM

wld    I'm really beginning to like you after all our "barneys"

I understand exactly what you're saying.
It takes guts to stand up in front of a thousand people all full of beer and all thinking ..."Right make me laugh you fat bastard"

The behavour of those who go in for the character assasination of a dead man, comes across as the antithesis of Mannings

Fucking Pygmies.....Oh dear is that racist?   Its certainly a slur on the Pygmies!!.............Ake

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:06 AM

The problem with stating the blindingly obvious is that the stater will be assumed to condone the object of the statements and what was done by the object.

However for the rational and logical not blinkered by their feelings: discuss..........

He not only earned a good living but ran a club based on his chosen approach.

That alone is saying something - he new his audience, and his market.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:09 AM

I never met or heard Hitler either. And he was a genius - he could hold an audience of thousands in the palm of his hand.

As for whether I could do it I once spoke to a huge audience (5,000+ or so) and told a non-racist joke. Bernard Manning couldn't have done it. Not in Catalan anyway.

WLD do you call people black people "sambo" or "wog" or "nigger"? Are those words acceptable in the company you move in when referring to black people? If not why not, or do you believe it is OK to use those words when you are Bernard Manning/anyone else telling jokes based on crude stereotyping?

Bernard Manning was a racist. If you wish to defend him just admit you are defending a racist, not a comedian.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:17 AM

"I just get fed up with pwoplw who haven't the intelligence to appreciate creative effort..... "

Is theis the sort of creative effort you're on about, WLD?

"Bloke went to South Africa looking for a job. The factory manager gave him a revolver and told him to go out and shoot six niggers and a rabbit. The bloke said "Why do I have to shoot a rabbit?" He got the job. What's the difference between a Paki and a bucket of shit?   The bucket."

I think that's a level of "creativity" the world could do without.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:18 AM

This is a thread about BM.

You want to discuss racism? open another thread.
I'll even start it of for you.
"Do Britain's ethnic communities respect/ like the British??

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:21 AM

Is that poor messenger getting shot again?
Tut Tut !

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:25 AM

Bernard Manning was a racist, who made racist jokes. Racism is relevant to the discussion.

Those jokes were HIS jokes. They prove just how vile and hate-filled his "humour" was. If that makes you uneasy, perhaps you should re-think your defense of him.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:27 AM

BTW, akenaton, I think you've nailed your colours to the mast with this question:

"Do Britain's ethnic communities respect/ like the British??"

...but you're not a racist either, are you?

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,mine
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:35 AM

I wonder how these people that hate Bernard Manning would feel if someone went to their family or friends and found out that they were dead and said GOOD RIDDANCE

where's your respect, I mean show some respect for the man and his family, and if you don't then you're just as bad or worse

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:55 AM

dei morti parla bene - why not?

How can you mourn a man who regarded the humilition of people based on race or gender as a joke?
How can you express sympathy for or spare the feelings of any relatives without condoning that?

I take no pleasure in this man's death, just a great sense of relief that there is one less person out there peddling this invidious, so-called humour

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:57 AM

I might have agreed with you had he respected people when telling jokes.

Of course he had his limits - he wouldn't tell mother-in-law jokes.

But it was OK to tell jokes about black people.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,anti-pc
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:57 AM

These people like Ruth and her ilk, don't have any respect for anyone because they don't show any respect for anyone that is dead, ok the guy told some terrible jokes, but at the end of the day he was a human being and you must show some respect towards his family and friends, if you don't then who is more disrepectful eh! at lest he tried to make the world a better place unlike some of the people on here.

RIP BIG MAN

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,me
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:02 AM

I agree with the guest about respecting the man, I mean you lot haven't told any racist,sexist,homophobic jokes in your lives have you, by god you must be nuns and monks or friends of the pope.

so in other words you and your friends on the mudcat cafe haven't told a racist,sexist or homophobic joke in your lives, so how I don't believe that.

ME

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,no one
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:06 AM

Whatch what you're saying guest Me and ANTI PC and mine, because there is no use arguing with these people they are don't want to listen people and there views, it either they're way or no way.

after life is a joke, if it wasn't you would be a greeting face git.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:07 AM

i think you meant after all life is a Joke

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:08 AM

to guests anti pc and me,
Not only do you fail to answer my questions posted at 8.55 but you bear a remarkable similarity in your posting style!
Maybe you just like talking to yourself?

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Nick
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:08 AM

>>I wonder how these people that hate Bernard Manning would feel if someone went to their family or friends and found out that they were dead...

Surely if you were dead you wouldn't go visiting people?

Unless you were a ghost, of course, but that's probably yet another topic.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,scot
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:37 AM

GUEST,Canadienne

The man was of a time when those things were thought off as funny, but the man is dead, if you can't show him respect then show respect for his family

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,scot
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:43 AM

GUEST,Canadienne

And you and your friends haven't told a racist, sexist or homophobic joke in your lives, you must lead very clean lives then.
please tell this isn't so or you and your friends are nuns and monks or waitng in line for the pope's job or the new virgin Mary

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:44 AM

scot,

that is a very anti catholic joke now

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:52 AM

Would some clone please sory out this sorry multi-personality guest scot/me or whoever who is now quoting his/her own posts while obviously failing to read that I take no pleasure in this man's death and is still unable/unwilling to answer my question - how do you show respect without condoning his behaviour?

Actually Bernard Manning came from the same generation as myself scot (or whatever you're calling yourself now) but I never found him funny as I'm sure those he humilated publicly did not either.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,forget
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:53 AM

all of you that didn't like bernard manning are just all a bunch of hypocrites everyone of you

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:54 AM

Blimey. Get a few Bernard Manning fans in and just watch the level of debate plummet! :-D

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM

I don't think that these guest are fans of Bernard Manning, because they didn't say so.

look let's forget what is said, let bygones be bygones.

I have never said that I was a fan of his.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM

More like one "fan" who shares his out dated nasty viewpoints Steve.

If there is to be a "rule" about using one guest name per thread can we please see it enforced with more regularity?

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM

what's the point, you are never going to answer the question are you

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:03 AM

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:09 AM

RIP

at the end I didn't like his jokes either but he was a fellow human being

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:20 AM

For the record I never thought he was funny the odd times I saw him on the TV or whatever, consequently I never went to see him, if you know what he's like, and you don't like it, DON'T LISTEN TO HIM, there is a wonderful device on every TV it's called the OFF button.

Gin makes me feel sick, ergo I never drink it.

Nobody was ever forced to go and see him.

eric

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:25 AM

I don't think you have to be a fan. I just knew he did a job that required skill of the type few of these people - can imagine. Yeh you gave a speech, and one night they let you flog the raffle tickets at the vegetarian folk club - I don't think you have been within a million miles of Manning's red in claw venues.

Actually the joke about south africa is cock on as a comment on that country's racism at the time.I wonder how many of these judgemental gits were banking with Barclays and buying south african fruit throughout that period. That's the thing in a way - little people like us - we don't get much chance to say anything.

I know I was working for Aveling Barfords sending dumper trucks and other equipment to the south African mines. And damned glad to have the job. Its not easy opting out.

He was all the nasty things and had all the nasty attitudes that so many of that generation had. But he would go unremarked as a thousand others in the obituary columns of your local paper with those same attitudes do - were he not talented.

he was originally I believe a singer for one of the bigger dance bands. Theres a lot of musicians humour in there - that sort of edginess that gives it its bite, from trying to crack up the band.

But as we've said you don't have to like him, or understand where he's coming from. I can't help feeling though, you're letting your critical faculties have a bit of a rest day. Nothing new about that on the cat unfortunately. However do yourself a favour occasionally - try and think outside what your 'set' want you to think.

Theres a wonderful phrase in Albert Goldman's biography of Lenny Bruce - 'the bravery of the common showbiz footsoldier'. Grossman used it in describing why Bruce succeeded when many more brilliant comics than Bruce just gave up - faced with Summer seasons in the Catskills and tours of the midwest, pissed up boorish audiences

Manning had that 'bravery of the common showbiz footsoldier' by the bucket load. Render unto Caeser....

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:28 AM

eric - you are correct - and like many other people I would never watch Bernard Manning. However, the two waitresses who were required to serve at a Derby hotel function were not fortunate enough to be able to switch off his vile, racist personal language directed at them personally and publicly as part of his "act".

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM

'bravery of the common showbiz footsoldier'

"What's the difference between a Paki and a bucket of shit? The bucket."

Yeah. Really brave.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:39 AM

Canadienne, Eric's argument is only correct to a certain point.

Yes, I could turn off the TV and didn't have to watch him. But he fuelled and helped to legitimise the "low-level" racism in our society amongst the people who did. Breeding and feeding division, misunderstanding, and even hatred.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:39 AM

this is stupid. I didn't like the guy much. However even I know you don't get paid for being a racist ignorant asshole. Which in effect you are saying that is all that is to be said for him.

You're brighter than that Ruth, stop wilfully misunderstanding me.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Nick
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 11:15 AM

WLD

I hear what you are saying but disagree totally

"He was all the nasty things and had all the nasty attitudes that so many of that generation had. But he would go unremarked as a thousand others in the obituary columns of your local paper with those same attitudes do - were he not talented."

People seem to agree that he was a talented comedian and performer technically.

What annoys people is that he reinforced and maintained those attitudes and never moved on. If you listened or saw any of the imterviews on TV and radio with the comedians who were his friends and supporters they all saw that point.

Comedians use the things of their age to make their comedy. Bernard Manning used the things of another age for his comedy to pander to a group of prejudiced people and to maintain and reinforce views of about 'Love thy neighbour' time. It made him a living and I dare say sat happily with his views.

I have a local pub where I argued with two people about their views on race some while ago. Apart from the time when I was threatened with physical violence by a pissed group of them in the pub(self professed racists) I now live with the fact that whenever I bump into them (unless they are by themselves) they get on their mobile phones and recount the Paki/Polish/ethnic/whatever 'jokes' and try and involve everyone else - trying to use humour and prejudice to support their particular political view which to me is abhorrent. And lots of people laugh because they are as small minded as - or scared of - the people who tell the jokes.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 11:49 AM

WLD - you have still not told us if you use racist language. If you don't would you kindly explain why it was OK for Bernard Manning to do so?

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 01:31 PM

It wasn't okay. It was damnable. theres nothing okay aout racism.

I don't defend him or his racism.

my point (as usuual) is that he was more of the folk than most English folk music. he addressed audiences that would have scared most of us shitless.

Shakespeare could do it - he could get money out of a crowd and draw them away from the choice of attending a public execution. its an imoportant strand in great art. Not that all entertainment that can do this is great art - Manning certainly wasn't.

but the art is not of the highest order, if it hasn't got it.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,scot
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 01:48 PM

you lot are just a bunch of hypocrites, you talk about bernard manning and yet when I read your posts, it's full hatred, racism,sexism and homophobia and you gang up on people that don't agree with you because you as I say just a bunch of fucking hypocrites thew lot of you

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM

Of course it may JUST be possible your views are in the minority guest scot; but, if you find those of us who don't agree with you so offensive, may I repectfully suggest you leave.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:34 PM

Quite correct Ruth, I am not a racist.
The "question" you quoted was a proposed title for a new thread discussing racism, as you know very well.

I know that people of your ilk don't like discussing "difficult" subjects like racism or homosexuality as you might find that your cosy preconceived ideas turn out to be wrong. However I am unafraid to discuss any subject with intelligent people.... and if that makes me a racist/ homophobe in your eyes, so be it.

Another job for the "Thought police"....Eh?

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:04 PM

I know that people of your ilk don't like discussing "difficult" subjects like racism or homosexuality as you might find that your cosy preconceived ideas turn out to be wrong

How come you know Ruth so well?

Couldn't be preconceived ideas - could it?

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:13 PM

Davie....Ruth's M.O. is quite obvious from her posts.
The worrying thing is that there seems to be many more of them out there....just like Ruth.

I blame it on CJD...Ake

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:17 PM

the Radio Times's smart arse interviewer, who usually spends his sycophantic life crawling up the arses of the stars. He sensed that Bernard had few defenders and tore into him. I just hate that sort of intellectual bullying.

But you are happy to praise the creative effort that is needed to insult people with words like sambo, nigger and wog like he did, to those waitresses in Derby when he had a microphone and they couldn't answer back. That takes real intellect and fantastic creative talent.

Can we just try and get rid of the argument that what he did took a certain amount of skill and most of us would be scared shitless. For well over twenty years I stood for twenty+ hours a week in front of some of the toughest roughest students that Sheffield could provide.

Bernard Manning would not have lasted five minutes.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:22 PM

Aha - so it was pre-conceived ideas and you don't know her at all.........thanks, that is what I thought.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:25 PM

Students are easy meat.......you've really got to watch the fifty-something housewifes full to the eyeballs wi' Brandy and babycham.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:32 PM

Sorry we keep cross posting.
We don't really know anyone on these forums, but any ideas I have on important subjects have been formulated by life experience.
I make an assesment of people like you and Ruth from your posts.
I'm not impressed by taunts of racist when used to prop up a weak argument.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:01 PM

tough students ...give me a break!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:07 PM

I can beat that - my brother in law lectured in horticulture - for over thirty years alone and undaunted, he lectured on flower arranging and herbaceous borders.

And throughout it all, he wore his blood donors badge!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:17 PM

"The "question" you quoted was a proposed title for a new thread discussing racism, as you know very well."

And the tone of the question - "Do Britain's ethnic communities respect/ like the British??" - specifically as a response to this thread, has "racist" written through it like a stick of rock.

The fact is, Bernard Manning was a racist. The jokes quoted above turn my stomach. If they don't do the same to you, have a long hard look at yourself. If they do, ask yourself why the hell you are defending someone who would denegrate fellow human beings in this way.

That's all.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM

Bernard wouldn't have lasted five minutes because the minute he made some racist remark, one of the 17-year-old-six-foot-four-inch-spends-three-hours-a-day weight-training students would have punched his lights out. It is the sort you get in the college I taught at.

Or perhaps he wouldn't have been so brave and creative in front of black students.

To Akenton.

I have not called anyone a racist on here with the exception of Bernard Manning. I called him a racist before he died.

I am delighted you have some life experience. What a pity it has taught you little about stereotyping from minimal information.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Candienne
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:25 PM

"you've really got to watch the fifty-something housewifes full to the eyeballs wi' Brandy and babycham" - another easy stereotype and again not even funny!

Bernard Manning may or may not have been a racist, I never met the bloke, but I do know he made a living pandering to the ignorant bigots that were and thereby lending their fears and prejeudices some kind of spurious "acceptability"

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:34 PM

I give up!!   Time to call the men with the white coats.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Rog Peek
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:41 PM

Bernard Manning must be up there......whoops sorry, down there watching these heated exchanges and lapping it up, why give him the satisfaction?

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:43 PM

well actually if you traddies didn't have your heads so far up your arses singing about the battle of waterloo and other stuff nobody gives a shit about...you would realise Bernard was at least talking about the anxieties of modern society.

Whilst feminists were cleverly calling everybody MCP's just at the point when all the jobs in industry and men's roles in society were disappearing down the tubes.....don't get married girls!

Whilst the lefties down at the Star Club were singing of the bold IRA, just as Birmingham was getting blown to bits.....

there was this creative artist addressing the fears of people who had and helping to make the alien presence of Irish and coloured people in our community - a little less scary that many people actually found it.

now piss off and dance round the maypole!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:01 PM

Or to put it another way there was this racist who increased all the tensions and gave succour to people hating other people on the basis of their ethnicity by his foul-mouthed racism.

WLD - you revealed a lot about yourself in that post. Akenton will be pleased.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:42 PM

"there was this creative artist addressing the fears of people who had and helping to make the alien presence of Irish and coloured people in our community - a little less scary that many people actually found it."

"What's the difference between a Paki and a bucket of shit? The bucket."

yeah - I get your point, WLD. Not.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:45 PM

"there was this creative artist addressing the fears of people who had and helping to make the alien presence of Irish and coloured people in our community - a little less scary that many people actually found it."

"40 years ago, twenty white men chasing a nigger was the Klu Klux Klan. Today they call it the US Open"

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:48 PM

"there was this creative artist addressing the fears of people who had and helping to make the alien presence of Irish and coloured people in our community - a little less scary that many people actually found it."

"I am an admirer of Adolf Hitler," he told the Sunday People. "Not everything about him, of course. I deplore his gas chambers and Gestapo as much as anyone, but I admire him for the things he got right, which I reckon was about 50 per cent."

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:04 PM

I think Alexei Sayle covers the subject very eloquently, with added validity due to his own background, here.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:05 PM

"there was this creative artist addressing the fears of people who had and helping to make the alien presence of Irish and coloured people in our community - a little less scary that many people actually found it."

""What's the difference between an Iraqi woman and a pilchard?

One's oily and greasy with fucking bulging eyes, and the other's a fish."

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:10 PM

thank you for that link George - as eloquently expressed as I would expect from Alexi Sayle - a "must read" there remains nothing more to be added!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:16 PM

"there was this creative artist addressing the fears of people who had and helping to make the alien presence of Irish and coloured people in our community - a little less scary that many people actually found it."

to a black police officer at a function:

"You're black, I'm white. Do you think colour makes a difference? You bet your bollocks it does!"

"They actually think they're English because they are born here. That means if a dog's born in a stable, it is horse."

"They used to be happy people in the cotton fields, singing their bollocks off day and night. A fella used to go around with a whip… 'Oh, massa, give us another crack of dat whip. I love dat whip'…" "

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,scot
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:37 PM

as I'm about to leave, you lot just face the truth, you are the most horrible people that I know, you are so full of shit, and by the way with a gay boyfriend and I also like Martin Luther King and I'm also a black gay guy.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Candienne
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:48 PM

guest scot

" At once, good-night:
Stand not upon the order of your going,
But go at once."
to quote Bernard Manning - " That's from f***in' Shakespeare, that is."

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,scot
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:52 PM

I just remembed one other thing this is how hitler started, by tellimg people that didn't agree with him or his views to leave as well and look what happened then, so just because you don't agree with what I have written you say that I can't stay, well I will write on any post at any time and you and no one has the right to tell me or anyone else to leave.

I agree with Guitar

let agree to disagree because this is bloody stupid and if you don't like it then who is the dictator then.

it's either our way or no way.

I just love my fellow human beings that much that I'm sorry for going daft and wrirting such rubbish.

Oh didn't I tell you that I'm also a Jewish gay black man with a boyfriend.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:56 PM

Guest Scot

I tihnk you should leave because you'll never win with these people I've tried and it doesn't work.

GUEST,Candienne

Please leave guest Scot alone becasue he has been told to go.

I agree with you that he should leave

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:00 PM

oh scot, I think you did mention your Jewish, black gay credetials and also your resolve to leave!
Now one of those is at least untrue - I wonder about the others.

Thnks for being the best arguement here against racists, I just love you too :)

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,scot
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:03 PM

thanks
I'm away to bed now

Scot

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,scot
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:04 PM

:)

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:05 PM

Goodnight Guest Scot,

I hope that will come back

Tom

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:32 PM

Quoth akenaton:

"I know that people of your ilk don't like discussing 'difficult' subjects like racism or homosexuality as you might find that your cosy preconceived ideas turn out to be wrong. However I am unafraid to discuss any subject with intelligent people.... and if that makes me a racist/ homophobe in your eyes, so be it.

Another job for the 'Thought police'....Eh?"

This is the single most egregiously silly post I've read all year, bar those from the occasional apparent multi-identity loonies we've seen on this thread.   People of our ilk are actually discussing racism here and now, on this thread, in case you haven't noticed. Your problem is that people of our ilk don't happen to agreee with people of your ilk, so you debase the discussion by resorting to petty insults. We're cosy and preconceived and, by implication, unintelligent. The fact that you are up for discussing Bernard Manning with us does not make you a racist or homophobe. The fact that you vigorously defend the man may well make you racist or homophobe. It's your job to explain to people of our ilk how you can be the one (a Manning fan) but not the other (a racist and homophobe).   It's a tough question to answer, but you really ought to address it before you issue any more insults to us of our ilk.   I bet you can't! :-)

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ythanside
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:07 PM

Bit messy, this Post Mortem business, isn't it? I'm ankle deep in blood and gore just reading the comments.
BM was an anachronism, so out of place in the 21st century that he is viewed to best effect in black and white only. He was not alone in his choice of material forty or fifty years ago when the word enlightenment, to many in his audience, meant switching from gas mantles to electric bulbs. He just didn't evolve; he got stuck in a time warp. If anything his material grew more offensive, perhaps as a reaction to the growing criticism he attracted. As a natural showman he would have known how to turn any form of publicity to his own advantage. The fact that his act lent credibility to the National Front didn't appear to cause him any concern.
Love him or hate him, however, he's gone now, so the knives can be put away.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 03:04 AM

I agree Ythanside

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 03:08 AM

Guest Scot,

I hope that you read this post, which just says simply see what I mean by you can't win

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,scot
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 03:25 AM

thanks Guitar,

I've just read you post, and I agree with you, they just don't want to listen to reason or any other opinion that's all it's a case you have to agree with me or else.

So as I say Guitar you're right just don't argue with these 'people'

because there are some people like me can admit that they are wrong these people can't.

So thanks again Guitar

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,scot
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 03:58 AM

oh another thing Guitar,

I've noticed that they are just big children, you it's either our weay or no way, so what they do is gang up on someone and just try and score points, I'm just fed up with this Guitar, I have more important things to do

so the big children this is for you 'GET A LIFE'

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:29 AM

Nice one George - it should be compulsory reading for those defending Manning.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,scot
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:58 AM

GUEST,Canadienne

At lest I like you but I'm not sure about the others

and this time I will leave I promise this time

:)

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:20 AM

As we were saying...

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 06:53 AM

What saddens me is the vitriol unleashed on any subject discussed on Mudcat!

Scanning quickly down the Mudcat 'Third Joke Thread 2007' I can see jokes about :- English, Welsh, French, German, Austrian, Irish, Czech, Russian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Men, Blondes, Jews, Priests, Lawyers and old people.

We often make jokes about Bodhran, Banjo and Bass players. Drummers come in for a lot of 'stick' as well (sorry about the pun)[no I'm not].

This does not make us racist etc. just human.

The joke which has been repeated here many, many times is not racist unless you want it to be.

Whats the difference between a Paki and a bucket of shit? The bucket!
Whats the difference between a Banjo player and a bucket of shit? The bucket!
Whats the difference between a drummer and a bucket of shit? The bucket!
Whats the difference between Tony Blair and a bucket of shit? The bucket!
Whats the difference between a racist and a bucket of shit? The bucket!

The joke is the twist – the bucket.

By the way, I could not stand BM because of his bullying type of humour. Pick on someone in the audience (like the waitresses)and ridicule them? That is bullying but not necessarily racist!
I rarely saw him on Tv and then only by accident, I would not care to see him live (would probably walk out if he performed anywhere I was) but that was my choice.
They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder - so is racism!
The guy is dead and his humour will die with him! R.I.P.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Blindlemonsteve
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:03 AM

2 points that i think are of importance here,
1, Was Bernard Manning a great Comedian, This has to be answered with out a doubt Yes, BM was technically a comic genius, his ability to deliver a punchline was incredible.
2, Was his material out dated and offensive in this modern world.... again Yes,

My perception of him is that its a shame he wasnt born 40 years later, i think he would have been one of the greatest comedians of all time, he was a victim of his generation. You cant really hold that against him, At the end of the day, he only ever told a few jokes, made some people laugh, made other people take a look at the society they lived in and made some other people rant on discussion forums,,,, over all, he wasnt a bad man, so i say R.I.P Bernard Manning, a great comedian, born too early..

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:22 AM

Blackhawk: is the term "Paki" no longer racist then?

nick

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Black Hawk still at work
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:42 AM

GUEST,redhorse at work Blackhawk: is the term "Paki" no longer racist then?

Me They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder - so is racism!

I know Pakistanis who call each other Paki - are they racist?

Any term depends on how & why it is said.

If you called me a fat b@$£@rd I would take it as an insult - if my mate said it I would take it as friendly banter.
You must live in a dull grey world if everything is so literal.

Besides which I was using that as an example of the type of humour. It is strange that the main repetition of these jokes has been by people who oppose them.

(My parents were married long before I was born by the way).

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Black Hawk etc etc
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:46 AM

Just to add :-
Many years ago when working in the largest chemical plant in Europe I worked alongside a 'black' plumber. I never found out his name because when asked by anyone he always said 'Just call me Sambo'.

Why? I dont know but always seemed strange to me. Nice chap.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:53 AM

The joke which has been repeated here many, many times is not racist unless you want it to be

Exactly. Bernard Manning wanted it to be. That's why people on this thread who called him a racist are correct to do so.

Those who wish to defend him on any grounds whatsoever have to accept they are defending a racist - not a comedian.

By the way, I could not stand BM because of his bullying type of humour. Pick on someone in the audience (like the waitresses)and ridicule them? That is bullying but not necessarily racist!

He didn't pick on them because they were waitresses he picked on them because they were black. That is both bullying and racist.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 09:05 AM

What's the difference between BM and a bucket of sh...you know what?

The Bucket.

Any BM apologists want to explain how what I just typed is not offensive?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Black Hawk etc etc
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 09:19 AM

Folkiedave - I am not defending BM. As I have already stated, I could not stand the man AS I PERCEIVED HIM.
What I was pointing out is that not everything that mentions race is racist.
The waitress incident mentioned could have happened whether they were black, yellow or white. I have shared a stage with 'comedians' who used any excuse (colour, age, clothes etc) to spotlight some unfortunate soul to use as a butt for their 'humour'. They didnt hate these people, they just used them. One person I personally find very offensive is Anne Robinson on the Weakest Link programme. She makes personal remarks about race, looks, hobbies, jobs etcetcetc and is becoming rich by doing so. BM fans knew what to expect. A quiz program I expect to be that.

Don(Wyziwyg)T - Yes it is offensive to BM fans but no doubt the BM haters will not think so. I didnt see any reaction condemning the previous link about doctors saying his condition is now satisfactory!
'Eye of the beholder' perhaps.
Its not offensive to me because
a) I've heard it before
b) I dont think its funny
c) I dont like BM
d) I think there are more important things in life than worrying about a 'one-liner'.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Black Hawk fed up with the arguing
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 09:25 AM

By the way Don(Wyziwyg)T - in your example the joke might be offensive but it is not racist.

Which was exactly my point!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 09:37 AM

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder........... get it out with Optrex.


[ Milligan ]

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 09:45 AM

"Yes it is offensive to BM fans but no doubt the BM haters will not think so."

This is precisely where we differ, Blackhawk. I am a BM hater, and always have been, and I think what I typed is offensive in the extreme, and I would never have typed it except to prove that point.

If you were interested enough to ask the opposition, you might well find that the majority of BM haters share my opinion.

That, essentially is their reason for hating him.

As to the question of racism, I am amazed that you do not seem to understand that calling two defenseless black waitresses "Wog", "Nigger", etc. is not simply bullying, but RACIST bullying.

What else could it possibly be?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Black Hawk etc etc
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 10:09 AM

My last post on this thread (you will be glad to hear)

Don(Wyziwyg)T - I have never sworn on stage. I work in a mans world where there are very few women and the language can be appalling. Me as much as anyone. But there I know the people I deal with.
When you have a microphone you have a certain power. You can over-ride audience members comments with sheer power not skill. Some in the audience will not want to hear obscenities. I respect that. Not many performers do these days. There are many music nights I will not take my family to because of the 'low' content.

I do not care for BM for the same reason.

Please feel free to post my quote where I stated BM was not a racist!
In my opinion he was.
What I was pointing out is that the joke which was constantly being posted was not inherently racist.
As your own posting proved!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 10:18 AM

he waitress incident mentioned could have happened whether they were black, yellow or white

No it couldn't - there is no point in calling a white waitress "sambo" or "wog" - which is what he did to the black waitresses. He picked on those waitresses because they were black.

He may have insulted a white waitress but her skin colour would not have come into it. What are the racist words for a white person? I doubt if he knew any. There is no internet record of him ever using any in his act. Of course some comedians insult people - I don't bother watching them - but some people think they are funny.

But that is not the point - I am not complaining about Bernard Manning insulting people. I am complaining about him insulting people on the basis of racist stereotyping. And it makes no difference then what colour they are. (See my remarks about Irish jokes earlier in the thread) In the case of the waitresses his remarks were about the colour of their skin - and as has been pointed out that was both racist and bullying.

Of course the courts agreed and awarded them 30,000 each.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,scot
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 10:59 AM

I was never a fan of Bernard Manning, but at the end of the day he was a fellow human being and you got to show some respect if not him but his family, and if you don't then what does that make you lot that can't show respect for his family because when disrespect him then you disresepct his family, and then you lot are just as bad as him accroding to you lot.

I and I think Guitar were not Fans of Bernard Manning, because where in our posts have we said that we were fans, I was brought up to show respct for my fellow human beings wither they be bad or good.

Scot

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:03 AM

I thought that were going to leave Scot, but as I say don't argue with these people because they think that they are right and you think that you are right and no one is right, so I think that you should give up just because I'm going to do it, DON'T ARGUE WITH THEM.

AND I WAS NEVER A FAN OF BERNARD MANNING AND NEVER WILL BE, HE WAS A MAN OF HIS TIME I RESPECT HIS FAMILY AND FRIENDS

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:39 AM

Guitar, you and Scot are obviously the same person - same grammatical aberrations, same barely-literate posting style, turn up at the same time "coincidentally", etc.

If you have a legitimate and decent argument, you don't need to make up phantom identities to back you up.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 12:23 PM

Hmm, Hitler was also a human being, as were Pol Pot, Stalin and Mengele. Care to shed a tear for them, too, scot/guitar?
Ah well, that's one clever racist bastard gone. Now, about Jim Davidson...

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 12:39 PM

Ruth Archer is correct. "Scot" and "Guitar" are the same person. We don't allow that sort of manipulation at Mudcat. Posters are required to use a consistent identity.
Guitar/Scot, consider yourself warned.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 12:40 PM

Well, judging by the posts on the threads, BM's death was more important than S.Rushdie's knighthood. Or of more relevance to our little community. Or more divisive. Or perhaps we just let words and the keyboard run away with themselves.

Y'all really should go a few posts back and read Alexei Sayle's take on this; he should know, better than any of us. If you disagree, make your point; otherwise let the thread die, the sight of so many of us with red on our virtual whiskers is disturbing.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

Nice sleuthing, Ruth.
You are hereby renamed Ruth The Sleuth :-)

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Blindlemonsteve
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:33 PM

I did find this funny though
An Irish guy go´s on a building site for a job, Can you make tea said the foreman, yes says the Irish guy, can you drive a forklift said the foreman,,,,,, Blimey, how big is the teapot said the irish guy.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:47 PM

that's funny. At least it wasn't the "Take your pick" joke.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Black Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:55 PM

Sorry folks – didn't want to come back and hope it's the last time!

Folkidave - My statement the waitress incident mentioned could have happened whether they were black, yellow or white I still stick by.
You say it couldn't!
In my experience, comics like him pick on somebody vulnerable to be the butt of their humour. If the waitresses were blonde (blonde jokes), male (? gay jokes), short (dwarf jokes) etc.
His kind will always find something. He wouldn't use the same exact words but he would still insult. That's how he made a (good) living.
The fact that the waitresses involved got a payment should open the way for any audience member who is the butt of others wit to also win a court case but I doubt if it will!

I am amazed by your remark I am not complaining about Bernard Manning insulting people. I am complaining about him insulting people on the basis of racist stereotyping.
So it is OK for him (and others) to insult white, English people?
That remark in itself could be considered racist?

I find ANY insults to ANY person regardless of colour, race, religion etc. offensive if done merely for effect!

(The exceptions are when it occurs between friends at gatherings everywhere but is meant in jest and is accepted the same way.)

Folkiedave - If BM & I were in the same bar I could not stay. Even though you & I may disagree here, we could probably sit & have a pint or two & sing a couple of songs & enjoy each others company. Thats the main difference between people like BM & us.

George – I do not find Alexei Sayle's comedy funny either. Everyone to their own.

Hope you all have a life free from insults,

BH

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 02:03 PM

BH, I referred to Alexei Sayle's article on BM, linked above, not his comedy - which I also don't find funny.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 02:05 PM

Or did you mean that the two are somehow linked (I mean AS's comedy and his article, which is in fact serious)?

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Nick
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 03:24 PM

I would have thought that one of the glaringly obvious things about performing comedy (or music or anything) is that most of the long term successful surviving people have some underlying belief or cultural system that underlies and provides the basis of their material - whether it be feminism; racism; socialist; communist; jewish; satirical; etc etc

Let's say Jenny Eclair is a technically good performer (not to open a discussion as to whether she is or isn't). Would she have made a living doing Bernard Manning or Frank Carson's material however technically good she might be? Would she have survived as long? I tend to doubt it.

I reckon that most of the comedians (like musicians) who have survived have found the niche that THEY were comfortable in and performed material that THEY were comfortable with, and I can't believe that it does not in some way reflect the views that they hold.

Ben Elton doesn't have the old "bash thatch" act any nore because she isn't there and it probably doesn't fit him like a glove anymore.

As an aside -

I have a lovely view of scot's parents - black and jewish - desperately searching through the names book for a suitable name for their child. "Let's call him scot" they both say as one.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 03:56 PM

My last time too I reckon....

Folkidave - My statement the waitress incident mentioned could have happened whether they were black, yellow or white I still stick by.
You say it couldn't!

If he insults her because she is a waitress that is not OK of course - but it is not racist!! If he insults her because she is blonde that is not OK either but it is not racist. If he insults her because she is woman (or a man) that is not racist either etc etc..... But if he insults her because she is black by calling her (as he did) wog, nigger and sambo that is racist. I am surprised you can't see that.

I am amazed by your remark I am not complaining about Bernard Manning insulting people. I am complaining about him insulting people on the basis of racist stereotyping.
So it is OK for him (and others) to insult white, English people?
That remark in itself could be considered racist?

I was complaining about his racist stereotyping. I thought I had made it clear I can also complain about his xenophobic, homophobic, sexist and insulting garbage as well. I just wasn't that's all. I had enough on my plate with trying to persuade people he was a racist.

I find ANY insults to ANY person regardless of colour, race, religion etc. offensive if done merely for effect!

(The exceptions are when it occurs between friends at gatherings everywhere but is meant in jest and is accepted the same way.)

I am not sure about that even but I admit one can get po-faced about these things. I am an inveterate joke teller (often stolen off Mudcat) but I do avoid sexist racist homophobic etc etc....stuff.

we could probably sit & have a pint or two & sing a couple of songs & enjoy each others company.

I am always up for a pint - (dreadful singer) - except I am trying to lose weight at the moment.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,a fan
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:32 PM

I'm really glad I started this thread - I knew at once I was touching a sore point with some people from the vitriol of the posts. Some points:- the ethnic people of Britain are white northern European. The word 'ethnic' has been used instead of 'ethnic minority'.

I'm a member of the most vilified minority group in Britain at present:- I'm a White, Anglo-Saxon, heterosexual Male. God help us all! We are discriminated in every walk of life - jobs, divorce (ask Sir Paul McCartney), child-custody, health care (women's medical treatment costs,on average ten times men's), Car insurance (it's ok to charge women less because they are "safer drivers" (my arse!)).

Ethnic minorities in Britain are very racist(have you seen many white men with Asian partners?), Dark-skinned Asian women need larger dowries to find a match: but two wrongs don't make a right. And I don't condone racism; I never have. Sir Paul Condon the, then, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, said that most street crime in London was committed by young Black menand the PC mob went baying for blood. A lynch mob stood outside New Scotland Yard calling for his head and calling him a racist. He merely stated what the survey of police crime reports said. In my day we would have asked why so many young Black men were driven to crime. The answer for the PC brigade was also obvious: these young men were discriminated against in jobs, first and formost, because they were MEN and not because they were BLACK! The hysterical calling Condon a racist took attention away from this fact. "The Female of the Species is More Deadly than the Male."

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:46 PM

What absolute bollocks.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:04 PM

He forgot to mention men's higher pay and the glass ceiling facing many women in their careers, or the number of women who end up as unpaid carers. I'd like to see his source for the astronomical health care costs for women as compared to men while we're at it. And does he really think that insurance companies, those epitomes of grabbing capitalism, would really let women off some of their premiums if they weren't safer drivers? And when was he ever discriminated against because he is heterosexual?

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:12 PM

Unless we stop all this PC nonesense and start to discuss racism and the causes of racism we are in serious trouble.
Further up the thread somebody said "but we are descussing racism on this thread"   WRONG   what they were doing was fucking a corpse.

Right from the start they lined up hardly able to contain themselves so eager to tell us how much they hated a dead man.
I hardly ever watched BM his humour was not to my taste , but thousands did....are they all racists.

I have noticed on this forum that it is almost impossible to hold an intelligent discussion on controversial subjects without a chorus of abuse designed to sabotage the discussion.
Who cares if BM was a racist, one of my neighbours is a racist and he is looked on as a sad individual
WE must start to examine our society, because there are huge problems for the future ticking away in the Ethnic minority ghettos.

Two very good friends of mine are Indian/Pakistani doctors, during our conversations I have been told that educated Muslims despise the British, their lifestyle,their materialism and depravity, and their foreign policy. I can almost agree with them in their assesment, but that is hardly the point. We must start a dialogue to find out why there is so much distrust between the races or we may one day face something even worse than 7/7

To silence discussion of any subject is the way of the book burners and fascism and there are many on this forum with that mindset...Ake

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:12 PM

I've been asked to remove "a fan's" 04:32 PM post because it is a "racist rant." It is that, indeed, but maybe it's good for us to see "a fan's" true colors/colours.

I also notice that "a fan" has used other names in other threads.

That being the case, perhaps I ought to just close this thread down. The subject of the death of Bernard Manning has been covered with far more posts than Manning deserves.

But Ake has a point. As an American visitor, I witnessed both shocking racism and smothering and ridiculous political correctness when I visited England, and neither one was pretty. Maybe the issue requires discussion and a reasonable consensus. I'll monitor this discussion, but perhaps it's not quite time to shut it down. Please remember to keep the discussion civil, and to use a consistent name when posting.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: cookster
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:31 PM

200

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:59 PM

Who cares if BM was a racist, one of my neighbours is a racist and he is looked on as a sad individual

Bernard Manning was a sad individual too.

I care about racism, it needs to be exposed for the garbage it is and for the damage it does.

This discussion arose because of the title of the thread which some people found was simply plain wrong and I would hate for Americans like Joe to think that the UK working class was all about bigotry.

We have had people on here defending his racism too.

That needed contradicting.

Now, you want a thread about racism - you start it.....

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 06:01 PM

Damn, cookster, I shoulda thoughta that.
-Joe, #199-

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: cookster
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 06:12 PM

too bad!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 06:17 PM

Gosh the fishing is good in this thread!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: cookster
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 06:29 PM

what are you talking about.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,patty o'dawes
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:09 PM

Being on the TV legitimized a lot of people who thought like BM - in their eyes.

He was an admired by some racist. An applauded by some racist. Maybe the most dangerous kind?

I won't dance on his grave but neither will I mourn his passing.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:30 PM

Joe Offer wrote:

"But Ake has a point. As an American visitor, I witnessed both shocking racism and smothering and ridiculous political correctness when I visited England, and neither one was pretty. Maybe the issue requires discussion and a reasonable consensus. I'll monitor this discussion, but perhaps it's not quite time to shut it down. Please remember to keep the discussion civil, and to use a consistent name when posting."

Well, I hope you'll visit again. Like in most countries you'll find bigotry and racist attitudes here if you look hard enough. I was a schoolteacher in east London for 13 years and I'm proud that I never let a racist remark pass in my classroom. God knows what good it did but I was doing the right thing in my book. Racist remarks in classrooms are never OK whatever the context. You'll also find here huge numbers of decent, thinking, measured people who want the world to be a better place. Same mixture as your end, Joe. Depends how and where you look! As for all this "PC" stuff, like I said two hundred miles up the thread, any discussion of dodgy comedians will inevitably bring the anti-PC brigade crawling out of the woodwork. And if that is an offensive allusion, it's meant to be. I strongly suspect that most people who denigrate "PC" do so because they have a conscience about their inability to get through life without making offensive remarks. It could be a fear that they lack the social conditioning to avoid such behaviour so, instead of getting to grips with their problem, they pre-emptively lash out at their "PC" critics to salve their conscience. It's a lack of understanding of how to behave appropriately in whatever circumstances you find yourself. It isn't "PC" to avoid racist jokes in front of black people or impressionable children. It's decent common sense, actually, and only ignorant thugs like Mr Manning would fail to recognise that. I personally find any joke about the Holocaust to be extremely offensive and if you tell me such a joke I'll tell you what I think of you and it in no uncertain terms. If that's "PC," so be it. I'll wear the bloody badge with pride. But I laughed my socks off at an Irish joke up the thread. I even texted it to my mum! Am I being inconsistent? I don't give a monkey's mickey, actually!   In the men's room of a forum I'm on I made a joke today about a woman with boobies big enough to polish her shoes with. But I did it in the men's room, right? Call me PC for finding Mr Manning offensive and I'll call you a lazy, cloudy thinker.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:33 PM

FD If you are really so concerned about exposing racism, you start a thread and try to encourage some intelligent opinions.

I have tried in the past and been shouted down by people who should know better.

Most of the early posts here, including yours, were simply grave dancing. there have only been a handful which have thrown any light on the problem of racism and why it occurs.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:38 PM

I got told off on another forum for using "you" in arguments. I did it in my post above, for which I apologise. It wasn't directed at Joe as an individual or anyone else!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:51 PM

Joe...I am sorry to hear of your experiences in England.
Perhaps you should have visited Scotland where Racism and PC are thankfully rare....(we do have a small problem with religion though):0).

Seriously, in my opinion political correctness actually encourages racism and bigotry, as it stifles open discussion and creates a climate of ignorance regarding other cultures.

"Faith schools" are another abomination, promoting in children, "difference" rather than "similarity" between cultures.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:17 PM

Well, I can agree with you wholeheartedly about faith schools. But you really have to cut out the loose PC talk. Your middle sentence is just throwaway nonsense. Before you try to develop your arguments any further, which I hope you will, I think you should give us your comprehensive definition of "PC." Failing that, just give us a list of examples of PC sayings of the type that stifles open discussion (so I'm ruling out the jokey ones, such as vertically-challenged, differently-abled and the rest). Please don't slag off any more those who in your opinion resort to "PC" without telling us exactly what you mean.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 03:03 AM

OK

TOM

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 03:08 AM

i'm sorry everyone for being the idiot that I am, thanks ruth for showing me up

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 03:12 AM

As I said I'm sorry about some of the posting Joe not all but some and I promise that I won't do it again

Tom

PS
I am an idiot for doing this stuff and i'm not that stupid Ruth as you say I am, I'm just not as clever as you that's all just because I don't use big words doesn't make me stupid or anything but I'll admit that there were time I was.

So sorry again

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: guitar
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 03:21 AM

ok all of them but then I believe in free speech, where some people do not, I hate racists sexists and homophobics and everything else that tese idiots believe in, however they have the right to speak their minds the same as you, and once again I was never a fan of Bernard Manning never was and never will be the same goes for Jim Davidson I'm not a fan of his either he's a racist bastard as well but he has the right to speak his mind, but you don't have to agree with what he says do you, if you don't like him then do go and see him.

Tom
I've dug a hole here and I can't get out haven't I

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 03:56 AM

Most of the early posts here, including yours, were simply grave dancing. there have only been a handful which have thrown any light on the problem of racism and why it occurs.

My posts were not designed to throw any light on the problem of racism or why it occurs. My posts were to give the lie to the idea that Bernard Manning was Britain's greatest comedian - the title of this thread.

Everything else has stemmed from that. He was a racist but he gave money to charity. He was a racist but his timing was good. He was a racist but he wouldn't tell mother-in-law jokes. He was a racist but he wouldn't tell jokes about disabled kiddies. He was racist but he was creative. He was a racist but he made a living in front of really tough audiences. He was racist but he represented working-class thinking.

All I want people to do is stop making excuses for the man.

He was a racist (and all the other things, an insulting bully, homophobic, sexist etc).

Like Steve Shaw if that makes me PC (or as some might say "polite") I can live with that.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 04:00 AM

"I witnessed both shocking racism and smothering and ridiculous political correctness"

Joe, I would have to say that the latter is probably an OTT response to the extremities of the former.

On the surface, attitudes have moved on. People refer to Manning as an anachronism. Well, I was married for 15 years into a really lovely, working-class family in Birmingham. I adored my father in law - he was kind, funny, helpful, supportive, and I only wish my own dad had been more like him - in most ways. But my father in law was also a dyed in the wool racist. Now, he knew there were certain words he wasn't supposed to use in polite company any more, certain jokes he shouldn't tell, but when he'd had a few pints and was with his mates, out it all would come. He enjoyed Bernard Manning. He also read the Daily Mail, and would occasionally regale us with the reactionary vitriol contained in that "newspaper". Often erroneous and exaggerated stories of "PC gone mad", or the most recent story of white families being passed over in the council queue so that an immigrant family could get a house. This stuff made him angry - really angry. Angry enough to tell us at one point that he was thinking of voting for the BNP.

Now, this was a man who lived in a nice, working-class white suburb in north Birmingham. He never even met a black man from one day to the next. The crime committed in the area was committed by white oiks. But he was scared. He thought his way of life, his culture, was under threat.

This is the reason I think Bernard Manning (and others of his ilk)was so vile. He legitimised and fed into the prejudices, the division, the "otherness" which acts against understanding and any hope of racial harmony. While people like my father in law could laugh at him, they were not only reinforcing the divisions between racial groups, they were reinfocing the notion that white British people were somehow superior to these "niggers" and "Pakis" - whole cultures reducuced to nasty stereotypes, just so that white, working-class men could feel better than them. This is the kind of "low-level" racism I talked about earlier - the stuff that fuels fundamental division, misunderstanding and resentment. When it turns good people into bigots who are thinking of voting for the BNP (dunno if he actually did - I don't think I want to know the answer), I think it's the most dangerous kind of all.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 04:28 AM

I agree with you all that bernard Manning was just not a nice person

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 04:32 AM

I have a feeling that we won't be hearing Guitar again, I think he's left the building

John

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 05:16 AM

Guitar's OK, John/Tom :-) But that's how it is in this life; one goes, another comes in... Shame you didn't overlap.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Nick
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 05:17 AM

Well there's a thing, he's back again - man of a thousand names.

Every time I go to Arran I drive through Saltcoats and in future I'll wave at "Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats AKA scot/guitar/Arran/etc etc etc" looking out of the window towards Arran pondering his black, gay, jewishness as he plays his guitar.

Welcome back "John"

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 05:44 AM

Ok I'll admit that it was stupid of me and my name is Tom Hamilton and I'm not black or Jewish but I am bisexual and I do play the guitar and the borran and I just a stupid arsehole, and i didn't fool anyone for a second I'm sorry, but the reason I changed my mudcat name and everything was that I was just fed up with all the shit that was aiming at me, I know that most of I deserved.

Tom Hamilton Saltcoats

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 05:53 AM

No worries, Tom; hey, we don't all look for targets to throw things at, around here. Not all of us, or at least not all of the time. You are not the first one to try things and get caught (says I redfacedly), so wear no har shirts; and I am happy to disagree with you, when we do, and move on.

Hmmm, bisexual, guitar, bodhran; one of the three bothers me a little, care to guess which one? (joke)

Keep well

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 05:54 AM

...that should have been "haIr shirts"...

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 05:57 AM

Thanks

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 06:16 AM

No worries Tom, none of us are perfect.

Especially not me.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 07:44 PM

People telling jokes about their own community can get away with things that sound racist when told by outsiders.

Folkiedave asked: "Ever heard an Irish joke that relies on the fact that the Irish are well-schooled, and have an economy based on electronics and high levels of skills?"

On the one hand, there's the one about the man being interviewed for a job on a building site, who's asked if he knows the difference between a girder and a joist (answer, one wrote Faust, and the other, Ulysses), and on the other hand there's the one told to me by a female Irish octogenarian - "What's black and sticks to the ceiling?" (answer, a Galway electrician).

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: goatfell
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:41 AM

As I have said Frank Carson who is Irish was called a racist because he told Irish Jokes, I was called a sexist because a sang a song called Abigail which is a funny song about a lady of the night, well I thought it was funny and then I found out the orginal song is about a American miner who falls in love with a mule.

Tom.

To me its just a song that's all but to some people its more than just a song

the words are

on the bosom of young Abigail
was written the price of her tail
and upon her behind for the use of the blind
was the same information in braille.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:13 AM

Yes, the famous mule love song, I know it well Tom...

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 11:12 AM

As recorded by The Corries. I always thought it was "tale!"

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 12:23 PM

Good old Mudcat. Really enjoyed (some) of this thread. I found BM's humour brilliant in his early years and surprisingly gentle too. I didn't enjoy his later humour as he developed his "racist" identity but having just read an obit from the Independant on Sunday I feel a bit more relaxed about him.
To quote a snip

"Although keeping his ancestry (Part Jewish - ed DW) under wraps, he was openly and visibly friendly with Manchester's Jewish community. He did frequent Jewish charity benefits, and told "Yiddishe stories", as he called them, with an aplomb and accuracy which satisfied the most critical Jewish joke aficionados. He was also known to give money to good causes in the city's Asian communities, and, although he would joke on stage about liking only "good English grub", was as fond of a curry at his favourite Indian restaurant as the next Mancunian."

No excuse for his racist jokes (about 10% of his repertoir). But shows there was more to him than just pure racism.

Dave Wynn (A.K.A. Spot the Dog)

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:30 PM

so did I perhaps it is I'm not sure great song anyway

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: GUEST,Blindlemonsteve
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:15 PM

I think, the reality of life and living is being able to realise that we are all the same but also very different, and we all have to be able to laugh at and enjoy those differences, we all have a lot more to keep us together than to pull us apart.
This leads me into what i want to say, most people in the U.K will happily live in harmony with anyone, whatever creed or colour, most people will laugh harmlessly at each other as a point of affection, with no malice whatsoever..... However, there seems to have been a dangerous movement over the last few years, local councils seem to have seen fit to employ wooly liberal, lentil munching sandal wearing idiots to throw out ridiculous directives about what is "Racist", and what is and isnt acceptable, they see fit to throw theyre vile opinions and and stupid logic into every area of living in the U.K.
Far from encouraging a multiculteral society that will live in harmony, they are breeding resentment, the tabloids are fuelling theyre flames, and what would be a great country with all people from all walks of life, is being torn apart with a ficticous hatred. This ridiculous P.C movement is the best recruiting agent for the B.N.P ever. I only hope that one day there will be a government that will have the guts and courage to get rid of these monsters and allow people to live in harmony.
So was B.M racist, no, i dont believe he was, i know he was half Jewish, probably had Irish, black and asian friends, i have some gay friends that thought he was hilarious. i dont think his jokes, or that humour is projected to anyone in particular, its funny because of the irony that the jokes portray.

Just my opinion, but i bet i am not far off the mark that most people think.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:30 PM

I bet you are.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:33 PM

You are living in a different Britain to me, Blindlemonsteve, mate. I suppose you don't live or work in Oldham or Burnley or any one of countless other inner-city areas where separation and suspicion are the order of the day (neither do I now, but I did once. Bury, Bolton, Tipton, Walthamstow, Poplar, Lewisham, Bethnal Green...) I see that you are propagating the latest flavour-of-the-day idea, that Bernard was equally abusive to everyone and therefore he was OK. This notion seems to have gained much currency in the last day or two.   And he was a bit Jewish too and "probably" has black friends etc. etc. ad nauseam. The excuses for his obnoxiousness are rife. I submit that he could have been even fairer had he refrained from offending anyone instead of spreading his abuse so "neutrally." The truth is that he found he could make a very tidy living thank you very much by indulging in lazy abuse of minority groups.   It's far harder to make people laugh in a positive and life-affirming way and he just wasn't up to it. He was, therefore, a third-rate comedian and a first-rate racist bigot.   When I get up there to the pearly gates St Peter may have a few searching questions for me and I may struggle, but I'll be asking him a few toughies too. If Mr Manning's in there (Maggie Thatcher too), I ain't going in. I'd rather have Beelzebub prodding my gonads with red-hot irons for all eternity than spend even five minutes in the company of either of those two rotters!

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Mann
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:43 PM

No excuse for his racist jokes (about 10% of his repertoire). But shows there was more to him than just pure racism.

How ever much he contributed to whatever charity or community groups he was a racist.

I did try and deal with this before - if I as a heroin dealer then give half my earnings to drug charities it doesn't make me any less of a drug dealer.

As for his repertoire only being 10% racism - first of all how do you know? and secondly that's 10% too much.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:50 PM

Or Dave Bulmer come to think of it.

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: goatfell
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 03:18 AM

here we go again

Subject: RE: Britain's greatest comedian dead-Bernard Manning
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 05:17 AM

;-)