What do you know about Carolan?

Subject: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Lucius
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 03:04 PM

Twice this week, I've heard mis-attributions about Carolan. Sheebeg-Shemor--I know it is his, and not traditional. Princess Royal I'm not so certain of, though O'Neill's lists it in their Carolan section. Anyone know for certain, or better yet, know of any good source reference for Carolan?

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 03:12 PM

Donal O'Sullivan's 'Carolan: The Life Times and Music of an Irish Harper', 2 vols (with the tunes), 1958, is now available as a reprint.

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 04:26 PM

yep..go here..to a site devoted to him music and biography..etc..

I know this has been posted before, but I cannot do a forum search anymore...there is MUCH on the net about O'Carolan...I found that one in seconds with a search on Altavista, and it may be the best..

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Don Meixner
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 05:53 PM

I always thought that O'Carolan was something Sandy Paton might say several times on any givem day.

Don

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Lesley N.
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 09:42 PM

The confusion over Sheebeg and Sheemore stems from the fact that it is based on an older folk tune. Some people feel it should not be considered an original work by Carolan.

As to others, there's a complete list of Carolan's works at my site (the one Bill gave above). Princess Royal is definately his - written for Miss MacDermott - daughter of one of his patrons. Princess Royal was later set to the words "Arethusa" and "Bold Nelson's Praise". Of course there could be other tunes named "Princes Royal" that have nothing to do with Carolan!

Thomas Moore also wrote lyrics for many Carolan tunes - and he wasn't the only one. "The Wounded Hussar" is Carolan's Captain O'Kane.

On the other hand one album wrote that Thomas Lexlip the Proud was Carolan - and it's not.

Which is a way of saying in folk music there is often a great deal of confusion about who should be credited with what!

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 10:15 PM

In O'Sullivan's 'Carolan' O'Sullivan puts a * by the tunes that he thinks are incorrectly atributed to Carolan. A more recent books publishing Carolan's tunes gives all the ones that O'Sullivan did, but they left off the *.

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From:
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 10:50 PM

I recall reading that the "Princess Royal" was the name of a ship, rather than a member of royalty.

I have always been curious as to how Carolan's music was recorded. There are various comments on arrangements I have seen (eg that an f was changed to an f-sharp) to lead me to believe there must be an "original" source. Did he write down his music, or did someone transcribe it later (or at the time)?

Murray

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Helen
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 06:43 AM

Murray,

From memory (I haven't read the Bunting book properly, and even then I haven't looked at if for some years) Edward Bunting transcribed the harp tunes he heard at a gathering of what was considered to be the last remaining harpers in Ireland. Bunting realised that if the tunes weren't transcribed then the harping tradition could very easily die out and the tunes would be lost. In fact the real harping revival didn't occur significantly until this century, so we Celtic harp players owe a great debt to Bunting for keeping the tunes alive.

I believe that they were transcribed for piano rather than for harp. I don't think that Bunting played the harp at all.

Lesley

It's great to see you here at Mudcat. I've told you this before, via an e-mail to your site, that I think your site is one of the best sites I know of on the 'net. I always enjoy surfing around on it. You have a wonderful collection of tunes, not just O'Carolan's tunes, and some really interesting information. So, thank you very much for your fine work. (I'm the one who told you that I think you have the wrong tune for O'Carolan's Farewell. Not a criticism, believe me, just a constructive comment.)

Helen

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From:
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 07:04 AM

Helen, When did this Bunting do this? Is the book available in some modern form?

Murray

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Sam Pirt
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 07:58 AM

I know that O'carolans concerto was based on a concero by a famous classical composer of the time and could well have been written as another version. This was demonstarted on 'A river of sound' as series of programs done by Micheal O'Sullaberurn

Bye, Sam (the accordion man!!)

Subject: RE: What do you know about Micheal Ó Suilleabháin
From:
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 08:09 AM

just correcting the spelling

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 08:15 AM

Shhebeg sheemore...a traditional tune attributed to OÇarolan and the words written by someone in the Wolfetones...bloody horrible to sing cos you go up and down about 6 octaves!

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From:
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 08:29 AM

Dave Bromberg called it "she begged she moaned..."

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: A Celtic Harper
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 01:55 PM

She Begged for More......Lyon-Healy had "Bunting's Ancient Music of Ireland" avaliable for $40.oo or so, as well as "The Harp of Ireland" by Grainne Yeats ( WB Yeats' granddaughter, I believe) for $12.oo The latter "includes chapters on harper-composers, with special attention to Turlough O'Carolan." 1-800-621-3881, Lyon & Healy Accessory Dept., open 8:00 AM-4:30 PM Central time. Or try the Sylvia Woods Harp Center at 1-800-272-HARP(4277) - she had Yeats' book listed at $9.95. Check her website at www.harpcenter.com - she's got lots of dandy harp music. There's also "The Complete Works of O'Carolan" which includes a "concise biography and several facsimile reproductions" from Melody's Traditional Music, 1-800-893-4277, website www.folkharp.com - regards - celtic harper

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 02:13 PM

That last is the one that reprints the tunes as given by O'Sullivan without the * on the ones probably (and in some cases undoubtably} not by Carolan. Also you have to know the formal titles, because the popular titles of many aren't in the Index, e.g., Princess Royal, Carolan's Receipt, Bumpers Esquire Jones, Planxty Connor, etc.

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Lesley N.
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 06:54 PM

Helen,

Thanks - I never could figure out Farewell - then I forgot all about it (sorry...) I'll have to check it out again as I'm putting up the single line melodies to go with the full arrangements...

Murray,

Carolan's tunes appear in several Irish manuscripts and a book of them was published circa 1721. Some of Carolan's tunes were published in his lifetime in Celebrated Irish Tunes and Carolan's son published a collection of Carolan's tunes (just before running off to London with another man's wife) - they were republished in 1780. Most of the early copies are either extremely rare or no longer exist. The tunes that survived are only single line melodies so we know nothing about how Carolan accompanied them.

Speaking of Sheebeg and Sheemore - Thomas Moore wrote lyrics to the tune, "Of All the Fair Months That Round the Sun." What did the Wolfetones do to it?

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 11:04 AM

there are lyrics in Irish for several O'Carolan tunes in James Hardiman, Irish Minstrelsy or Bardic Remains of Ireland (1831, facsimile reprint Irish University Press, 1971)
and in Douglas Hyde/Dubhlas de hÍde, The Songs of Connacht, Amhráin Chuig Chonnacht edited by Breandán ÓConaire published 1985 based on de hÍde's late 19th -early 20th century collections. Tunes aren't given, so in some cases where titles vary it would be hard to know which tune goes with which lyric. I wonder why we don't hear more of the O'Carolan lyrics sung. But that would hold for some other songs as well, for instance The Coolin is heard far more often as a slow air than as a song.

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 01:02 PM

When looking for words to Carolan's tunes, Catriona Rowsome's Complete Carolan Songs and Airs : arranged for the Iris hHarp is really the go-to source today.

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 03:37 PM

Philippa ; I believe that,when referring to him by his surname, one should omit the "O ' " and just say / write "Carolan " .I read it ,I think, somewhere where it said that a "Planxty" in honour of a woman becomes a "Plereca " , hence "Plereca Fanni Ni Poer" ; correct me if I am wrong !!

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 06:17 PM

Talking of "Sí Beag Sí Mór," here is someone who sings and plays the song simultaneously, which you don't hear every day.

Gráinne Yeats

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Felipa
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 06:16 AM

Pléaráca Fanny de Paor (Fanny Powers), Bubblyrat

no I don't think pléaráca has a particular feminine association
example: http://www.irishpage.com/songs/carolan/feast.htm (Pléaráca na Ruarcach [of the O'Rourkes], also known as Pléaraca an Ruarcaigh [of the 1 O Ruairc/O Rourke], Planxty O'Rourke)

usual Irish-English dictionary definition of pléaráca is revels or revelry. A word with wider usage (beyond music titles) than planxty

by the way
1) why is this thread http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=46578 closed? Why is it in the BS section, even if it does contain quite a bit of bs about both the terms "planxty" and "pléaráca"

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 06:26 AM

I bow to your superior knowledge ,Felipa; thanks for that ! Today, being the Dartmoor Folk Festival, I shall, as I did yesterday,play Plearaca Fanny De Paor ( my keyboard denies me the relief of an acute accent,sadly ) in the garden of The Oxenham Arms , and dedicate it to uou !

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 08:09 AM

Two points come to mind. Firstly Carolan wrote songs rather than tunes. The lyrics to all but one of these were in Irish, not English. Donal O'Sullivans book contains the one English lyric he found. Travelling from one patron to the next he would occupy himself with composing a new song for his next host. Whilst he may have started by re-using existing melodies I think it's mreasonable to assume that the majority of the tunes he used were original.

Secondly, although as a blind man he could not have written his stuff down, his big patrons were the Gentry in the 'Big Houses' and they could write. These were educated people with educated children. Part of their education would have been musical and it should not be a surprise to find that some of his songs were written down the children or grandchildren of the people for whom they were written.

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 09:05 AM

Firstly Carolan wrote songs rather than tunes. The lyrics to all but one of these were in Irish, not English. Donal O'Sullivans book contains the one English lyric he found.

Thee are a number of English language versions, O'Rourke's Noble Feast is one I remember, in Bunting's collection. But as I indicated above, the Catriona Rowsome book is the one that has brought together as many as possible sets of words with their airs. English interpretations given (see the link above for the complete blurb0

Subject: RE: What do you know about Carolan?
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 04:07 PM

What is it the moderator does, when you click on a thread, and the thread comes up, and you get a nice little list of clickable links to other threads on similar topics? Since this thread was begun, there have been many more threads on every subject from Carolan to planxty; this thread ought to figure in that list, whatever it is.