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BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job

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GUEST,sooo smart 21 Jul 07 - 03:55 PM
Don Firth 21 Jul 07 - 03:48 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Jul 07 - 02:33 PM
CarolC 21 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM
heric 21 Jul 07 - 01:42 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 21 Jul 07 - 01:37 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 07 - 12:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Jul 07 - 11:20 AM
CarolC 21 Jul 07 - 10:35 AM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Jul 07 - 06:15 AM
robomatic 20 Jul 07 - 09:37 PM
CarolC 20 Jul 07 - 08:51 PM
CarolC 20 Jul 07 - 08:42 PM
CarolC 20 Jul 07 - 08:40 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 07 - 08:25 PM
beardedbruce 20 Jul 07 - 08:08 PM
beardedbruce 20 Jul 07 - 08:07 PM
beardedbruce 20 Jul 07 - 08:06 PM
beardedbruce 20 Jul 07 - 08:04 PM
CarolC 20 Jul 07 - 04:32 PM
CarolC 20 Jul 07 - 04:18 PM
Don Firth 20 Jul 07 - 04:03 PM
beardedbruce 20 Jul 07 - 03:44 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Jul 07 - 03:42 PM
beardedbruce 20 Jul 07 - 03:41 PM
Peace 20 Jul 07 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,sooo sweet 20 Jul 07 - 03:32 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Jul 07 - 03:31 PM
beardedbruce 20 Jul 07 - 03:25 PM
beardedbruce 20 Jul 07 - 03:22 PM
beardedbruce 20 Jul 07 - 03:20 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Jul 07 - 03:18 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Jul 07 - 03:16 PM
Peace 20 Jul 07 - 03:15 PM
Peace 20 Jul 07 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,sooo sweet 20 Jul 07 - 03:10 PM
beardedbruce 20 Jul 07 - 03:08 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Jul 07 - 03:04 PM
Peace 20 Jul 07 - 02:57 PM
Peace 20 Jul 07 - 02:56 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Jul 07 - 02:44 PM
Peace 20 Jul 07 - 02:41 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Jul 07 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,sooo sweet 20 Jul 07 - 02:39 PM
Peace 20 Jul 07 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,sooo sweet 20 Jul 07 - 02:34 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Jul 07 - 02:07 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Jul 07 - 02:04 PM
Peace 20 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,sooo sweet 20 Jul 07 - 01:40 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo smart
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 03:55 PM

Heric, that's the most intelligent thing anyone has had to say in this thread sooo far. . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 03:48 PM

I doubt very seriously that there is all that much data available on what happens when buildings collapse from a variety of causes, i.e., earthquake, being collided with by an airliner, fire (either accidental or arson), vast amounts of time and general decay, controlled demolition, uncontrolled demolition, being struck by cannon-fire or a large stone hurled by a medieval trebuchet, or any combination of the aforementioned. Experimenting with models or computer simulation is not necessarily going to produce data that is accurate in the real world, and experimenting by causing full-size buildings to collapse in a variety of ways and then documenting all the minute details for future reference might prove just a bit costly.

So—although we may know generally quite a bit about the details of how a specific building collapsed by applying principles of physics and knowledge of architecture and engineering, much of it, especially the finer details, is going to be a matter of guesswork. And that would be by experts.

When attempted by non-experts, it is sheer speculation. And in this case, that speculation is strongly colored by people's preconceptions, further complicated by the blizzard of misinformation (some of it severely twisted to fit those preconceptions).   

Considering the fact that none of us knows for certain what happened, it is really a bit silly to get offended and/or nasty and/or abusive if someone else doesn't agree with your pet theory.

By the way, this is a general observation. I'm not addressing this comment to anyone in particular. If you found yourself taking it personally and getting your neck in a bow, you might just want to think about that.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 02:33 PM

"When other 40 story buildings have collapsed by other means than controlled demolition (earthquake, for instance), have they also become pulverized?"

That makes a difference in this case??   Can you say for a fact that they did not become pulverized? You can't compare apples to oranges because each circumstance of a building collapse is different - construction, causes, size, weather, etc. One factor does not work for another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM

"The rules and purposes of debate are different than the rules and purposes of higher academia."

That statement reveals so much about a person's character and behaviour in threads such as these...


This comment from you reveals even more about you. For one thing, that you prefer a somewhat sneakier approach to your smear tactics (ad hominem argumentation).

We are all equal peers here in this forum. None of us is a pedagogue bestowing anything at all upon others. You might believe that you have greater status, or that you have a right to judge or bestow your approval upon others, but you aren't and you don't. You're just another one of the debaters, of equal status as all of the other debaters.


"why didn't those top portions arrive at the bottom relatively intact?"

Because the energy they possessed when they hit the ground went into reducing them to rubble (1/2 m v 2 )


Even building 7?


"And how does this explain building 7?"

If you had big heavy lumps fall on you, you might fall down too...


There's a big difference between falling down and becoming pulverized. When other 40 story buildings have collapsed by other means than controlled demolition (earthquake, for instance), have they also become pulverized?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: heric
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 01:42 PM

Clocks in chips tick.
Clocks on chips tock.
Eight byte bits tick.
Eight bit bytes tock.
Clocks on chips with eight bit bytes tick.
Chips with clocks and eight byte bits tock.

Here's an easy game to play.
Here's an easy thing to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 01:37 PM

Hey Hey Foolstroupe... just remember this...
The Shill's shrill cheapest thpill... is condescension's dis...
Schism prisims no populisms... Carol's questions do...
Truth's proof may be uncooth... to many behind you...

Ask ask know your task... causes made us flutter
See be let's agree... biggotry's the nutter
Find kind open mind... Truth we're not afraid of...
Grow Know Make 'em show... what smoking guns are made of.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 12:18 PM

As ever, deeply held faith in one's adopted viewpoint holds the tiller through even the stormiest seas. ;-)

This is as true of you, Foolestroupe, as it is of all your loyal opponents on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 11:20 AM

"The rules and purposes of debate are different than the rules and purposes of higher academia."

That statement reveals so much about a person's character and behaviour in threads such as these...

"why didn't those top portions arrive at the bottom relatively intact?"

Because the energy they possessed when they hit the ground went into reducing them to rubble (1/2 m v 2 )


"And how does this explain building 7?"

If you had big heavy lumps fall on you, you might fall down too...


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 10:35 AM

A significant part of the structure, as a chunk, essentially fell on the rest, and like a fist coming down on a house of cards the floor by floor 'resistance' was very low compared to the shock of the release of potential energy from above.

If this is the case, why didn't those top portions arrive at the bottom relatively intact? And how does this explain building 7?


You would likely undergo a mental breakdown with higher level University study, then, as isolating the ideas from the individuals themselves is the main point of Research...

If I were to submit myself to such an environment, I would understand the rules of that environment and abide by them. This is not a higher level university environment. I have not paid anyone here to teach me and bestow any degrees upon me. The rules and purposes of debate are different than the rules and purposes of higher academia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 06:15 AM

"If you are critically discussing my ideas and reasoning, you are not discussing the topic of discussion, you are discussing me."

You would likely undergo a mental breakdown with higher level University study, then, as isolating the ideas from the individuals themselves is the main point of Research...


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 09:37 PM

You folks are swallowing elephants and straining at gnats.

Fire weakened the structure. A significant part of the structure, as a chunk, essentially fell on the rest, and like a fist coming down on a house of cards the floor by floor 'resistance' was very low compared to the shock of the release of potential energy from above. Jiving with this is the fact that although hit later, the tower with the greater mass isolated up top (a bigger fist) was the one that failed first.

As for the problem with falling 'straight' down, this is again ignorance of the laws of physics. If you've ever seen the demolition of a tall chimney stack, you'd notice that the whole thing doesn't just keel over like Jack's giant or a felled tree. It takes energy to divert that much mass to the side, hence at some point the top breaks away and falls closer to the base than you might expect. Since the failure of each tower started near the top to begin with, there was only 'down' to go.

This thread is a reminder of how certain arguments never go away even though they are pretty blatantly wrong on the face of it.

Mistrust goes a long way, and ignorance greases the skids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 08:51 PM

beardedbruce, your copy/pastings of my previous comments seem to be somewhat random, and it's a bit difficult to determine exactly what the point is that you're trying to make.

However, I think this sentence from me is probably a good response.

and if they could stand up to the same kind of scrutiny that any other scientific theories and conclusions are subject to

So far, the official versions of events haven't even come close to receiving that level of scrutiny. But I should qualify what I said a bit. If the peer reviews conclude that the official theory is bullshit, I won't be accepting it.

Plus, you failed to include the parts where I said that I would like to see multiple peer reviews and peer reviews of the peer reviews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 08:42 PM

Video released: No pictures of plane in view, just the explosion.

I'd like to see that one. Do you know if it's available for viewing online?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 08:40 PM

Here's one thing I find problematic. I consider it an anomaly. We have been given a few different "official" reports, as the official explanation has changed over time. For a while, they were promoting the "floor joists slipped off their angle clips (resulting in colapse)" theory. Now, they appear to be promoting the "floor joists pulled on the angle clips and bowed the perimeter walls inward (resulting in colapse)" theory. Obviously, they couldn't continue to promote the theory about the joists slipping off the angle clips because, as I've said before, that would result in the core being left standing. So they abandoned that one and came up with the tugging and bowing theory.

Here's the problem with these two theories having both been promoted by the government. With the first theory, they were saying that the weak spot was the angle clips. That's why they were able to make the assertion that the towers could have fallen that way.

Now, with the new theory, they are saying that the angle clips were not weak at all, but that they were so strong, and they held the floor joists in place so securely, the walls bowed inward because of it.

They seem to be trying to have it both ways with those angle clips. Probably because they made up the whole "angle clips being the week point" thing out of thin air without ever even trying to find out whether they were week or strong. I guess it sounded good at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 08:25 PM

701 ways to skin a cat...


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 08:08 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 02:32 PM

The beauty of the approach that I am advocating is that with this approach, the work of Dr. Wood can be peer reviewed. If it is faulty, this will come out in the peer reviews of her work. Unlike the official approach,..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 08:07 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 02:29 PM

No, beardedbruce, if the results of any future investigations (along with whatever evidence is used to arrive at any conclusions that are made) could be reviewed by anyone, and if the conclusions could be peer reviewed, and if they could stand up to the same kind of scrutiny that any other scientific theories and conclusions are subject to, I would not have a problem with accepting the results. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 08:06 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 02:22 PM

Face - No one is going to believe the NEXT investigation { independent or otherwise } unless it agrees with the conclusions that you have already made.

Multiple independent analyses that are subject to peer review, along with a truly independent and verifiable investigation would go a long way to persuade me to revise my current opinions. But so far, any time any kind of truly independent investigating has been done, the results have helped contribute to forming the opinions I have now. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 08:04 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 02:26 PM

The Nova program showed experts going through piles of WTC wreckage to find and mark and recover for analysis structural metal from the collision area.

So where is this material, and why aren't we being shown the results of the analyses? Seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to put all of this speculation to rest simply by providing the material to several different independent testing agencies and publish the results publicly. Or even better, make the material available to anyone who wants to study and test it, and subject any results that are published to peer review. Just like we do for any other kind of science."



"And while we're at it, it wouldn't be too difficult for the government to release the video footage of the Pentagon that was taken by the security cameras of the hotel across the road (which was confiscated by the FBI), so people can see for themselves that what crashed into the Pentagon was what the official whitewash says it was."

Video released: No pictures of plane in view, just the explosion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 04:32 PM

Hell, if we're going to use that logic, we can automatically say that Steven Jones' 9/11 Research is true (thermite and controlled demolition), because it's been peer reviewed.

Here's the peer review...

http://drjudywood.com/articles/why/why_indeed.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 04:18 PM

Not this is peer-reviewed, so it must be true...

Why would something having been peer reviewed automatically make it true, beardedbruce?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 04:03 PM

Some decades back, I had a friend who was going through a bad patch (turned out to be clinical depression and anxiety, later treated with meds and a bit of psychotherapy—she's fine now). Anyway, she was so distressed that she had herself admitted to a local mental institution. Another friend and I went to visit her, to see how she was getting along and to show our support.

The attendant ushered us into a lounge area where a number of patients were gathered. While we visited with our friend, there was a woman over in the corner who was sort of jabbering and gibbering. Very paranoid, "They're out to get me!" sort of stuff. She would talk to anyone who would listen, or to no one in particular. Apparently she did that constantly. No one paid any attention to her.

You know, folks, I highly recommend that we do the same here.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:44 PM

Peace,

A picture is worth a thousand words- and I can't type that fast.

I thought the picture would give a better idea of where and how far the particulate debris carried. "Across the river" does not really tell the extent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:42 PM

"Planes or no planes, explosives or no explosives, we have lots of video of the towers coming down. So, how'd they do it in 10 seconds? "

No one can definitively say they came down in 10 seconds because the video shows a great cloud of dust that is hiding what is happening. We can see the upper levels hitting within 10 seconds. I can only imagine the building, constructed the way it was, collapsing on itself and I would not expect it to stay up for very long.

Talk about delusion. Go back to your meds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:41 PM

sooo sweet (?)

You are using the figure of 10 seconds. THAT is from the NIST report. So, you are using the numbers you do not believe are true?????


The site I posted talks about 14 seconds. Are you saying THEY are wrong? It seems that, since THEY are the ones that are pushing the claim for controlled demolition, you might want to actually look at what they have to say.


The ONLY means by which the fall could have been faster than free fall is by the use of hyper-gravity generators ( altering the pul of gravity, and thus ( possibly) speeding the fall), which I postulated that the aliens used. Are you saying that MUST be the case, since even controlled demolition would NOT have allowed a collapse faster than the free-fall speed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:36 PM

Thanks, Bruce. Heck, I thought you'd just say yes or no! lol.

That hi res shot shows lots of material in the air.
Thanks for posting them. And I have favorited the paper. I will read it later tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:32 PM

Social position? Is that why Olesko pushes the government lie? Couldn't be, could it? Sheer vanity? No, it was part of some plea bargain. To whore himself out for the feds this way. HE'S the one who should be afraid of such folks. I mean, look at what they're making him do NOW. It'll only get worse in the future.

Anyway, speaking of delusionality, read the following, Olesko, and tell me how TWO 110 story skyscrapers each fell in about 10 seconds:

"In addition, the timing between the puffs is less than 0.2 seconds so air-expulsion due to collapsing floors is excluded. Free-fall time for a floor to fall down to the next floor is significantly longer than 0.2 seconds: the equation for free fall, y = ½ gt2, yields a little over 0.6 seconds, as this is near the initiation of the collapse."

Planes or no planes, explosives or no explosives, we have lots of video of the towers coming down. So, how'd they do it in 10 seconds?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:31 PM

From the Wall Street Journal -

"Two investors who are part of Larry Silverstein's group that owns the World Trade Center lease are among the buyers of the Sears Tower, which MetLife Inc. agreed to sell Thursday for more than $800 million, according to people familiar with the situation.

Lloyd Goldman and Joseph Cayre, New York investors who are among Mr. Silverstein's backers in the Trade Center, are part of a group that agreed to buy the Chicago landmark, these people said. Another New York investor, Jeffrey Feil, was also a participant in the Sears Tower deal, the people said. Names of the other investors couldn't be learned."

Note that the two individuals are listed as part of a group that agreed to buy the Sears Tower. They are also part of a group that own the WTC lease. No where does it say that the Silverstein group is involved in Sears Tower, just two individiuals.

A witch burns. So does wood. A witch must be made of wood.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:25 PM

high res of NYC


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:22 PM

actual pictures


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:20 PM

http://www.epa.gov/WTC/panel/pdfs/WTC5_WTC_Report_TextOnly_December_2005.pdf

Not this is peer-reviewed, so it must be true...


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:18 PM

" I read somewhere that smoke and dust drifted all the way to New Jersey"

From what I recall, most of it hit Brooklyn directly - but I do know that we could smell the fires in NJ.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:16 PM

I'm just dripping with slime.

As I "work" for a torture university, and I am part of the government coverup, you probably realize that I have sent the black helicoptors to terminate you. I'm surprised that someone of your intelligence did not stop to think that we could trace your IP address and pinpoint your location. Enjoy what is left.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:15 PM

BB, I read somewhere that smoke and dust drifted all the way to New Jersey. That sound right to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:13 PM

Well then I take back the bad language. Thought it was a guy. Didn't think a woman could be such an assh--disagreeable individual. Live and learn I guess.

BTW, that site I linked to above has some professionals (physicists, pilots) who--although they can't pin the tail on the donkey--have views that differ markedly from the NIST report. There seems to be some disinformation in there too. The swipe at the Israelis--who had warned Bush in August, 2001, about bin Laden and the mounting evidence that an attack was likely soon--suggests that they wanted the attack to occur. I find that hard to believe, because it's based on a document--the veracity of which is up for grabs--that came out of German intelligence. However, worth digging around in it anyway. That's what I'm gonna do now. Later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:10 PM

I'm not stating the fact, the Wall Street Journal is. Silverstein's group owns the Sears Tower.

Yeah, my mistake on the firefighting posting. But the numbers are much, much higher. And I won't lecture you, Peace. What is your firefighting organization doing to bring the 9/11 criminals to justice? Lots of lawsuits have been filed against Giuliani and Whitman by firefighting organizations. Which one is your group a part of?

As far as Olesko's sliminess, it's self-evident. He works for a torture university and pushes the government's coverup. Media man pushing lies that contradict the laws of physics. There's a reason for it:

"In addition, the timing between the puffs is less than 0.2 seconds so air-expulsion due to collapsing floors is excluded. Free-fall time for a floor to fall down to the next floor is significantly longer than 0.2 seconds: the equation for free fall, y = ½ gt2, yields a little over 0.6 seconds, as this is near the initiation of the collapse." That's just for one floor to reach the next, before encountering 4 inches of steel-meshed concrete bolted to hundreds of steel support columns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:08 PM

"I know the air quality was bad, I witnessed it from what I thought was a safe distance - I can only imagine how hellish it was up close."

I was on the EO-1 program (hyperspectral imaging, testbed for next-generation Landsat instruments), observing it from space ( along with volcanic plumes from Italy and South America) . It was NOT just in the immediate NYC area, though it was worse there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 03:04 PM

Thanks for the words Peace, and the feeling is mutual. You are one of the people I enjoy discussing this with, because we both learn something and think about the opposite view. I agree with you about the air quality and what the responders went through. As a firefighter, you've added a good perspective to this discussion - and you never faulted those people for doing their job and sacrifing so much.

I know the air quality was bad, I witnessed it from what I thought was a safe distance - I can only imagine how hellish it was up close.

Don't let so sweet get to you. She is only happy when she gets people aggravated. Her cutting and pasting without comprehending what she is saying has become obvious.   Her statements about me and FDU are a perfect example.    In my 31 years at FDU, I have NEVER been told not to play a song, nor have I ever been told to play something. My playlist is my own, and many of the artists who have appeared on my show will agree that they have been allowed to express their ideas.

sooo sweet is a cornered pig. She has run out of valid arguments and is fighting back in the only way she knows how.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 02:57 PM

Sorry, Ron. I have cross-posted with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 02:56 PM

And just so's you get the bigger picture here, guest soo sweet, although Ron and I have had our fair shhare of disagreement regarding 9/11, I'll have you know that before you friggin' arrived here to mouth off I was saying that stuff didn't add up--at least four years ago if what's left of my memory is anything to go by--and taking the flak for it, too. The flak came from many people who are presently posting on this thread. And guess what? They are my friends. You may not like Ron's views, but that sort of post is one that has NO place on this thread. In little words, fuck you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 02:44 PM

"It's the on-going training at your university, right? Y'all teach Homeland Security courses there (torture), and they told all of you to get with the program or move along. Probably as simple as that. Fear of loss of income. "

FDU is not the only school that offers these courses. I am not a student, nor am I a teacher. I do not get paid from the University.

Please stop by the station sometime and say that to my face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 02:41 PM

"You may be the slimiest of the government mouthpieces I've encountered, Olesko. To say "That dust is suspected to have contributed to or caused the deaths (post 9/11) of about 100 firefighters..." I mean, you're beneath contempt."

That was not Ron who posted that. It was me. Now you listen up you sonuvabitch: That info comes from a site that talked firefighters and other workers who have died as a result of shit they breathed in, absorbed through their skin, ingested AT THAT SCENE and IN THE RESCUE ATTEMPTS AND CLEANUP THAT TOOK PLACE AFTERWARDS.

I am a fierfighter. Do not fuckin' pretend to lecture me. GOT THAT! Now, you can apologize to Ron, asshole!


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 02:40 PM

"To say "That dust is suspected to have contributed to or caused the deaths (post 9/11) of about 100 firefighters..." "

Excuse me, but that was not from my post. I accept your apology.



"Wall Street Journal says they're part of the same group. Good enough for me."

That gives us an idea of the way you reason and draw conclusions. You and I are Americans - same group. That does not mean we have the same investment strategies.   Simply jumping up and down and saying something is so does not make it right.   Please keep digging and find a real fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 02:39 PM

It's the on-going training at your university, right? Y'all teach Homeland Security courses there (torture), and they told all of you to get with the program or move along. Probably as simple as that. Fear of loss of income. Or maybe not. All you'd have to do to keep the job would be to shut up. There's something else going on. They popped you for something, and now you're having to pay off your debt to the criminals of 9/11 by propagating their lie on the internet. It'd have to be a federal crime. Payola? That'd be an FCC violation. You take a canned ham to play a song or something? Go ahead, tell us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 02:36 PM

Found an interesting site.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 02:34 PM

Wall Street Journal says they're part of the same group. Good enough for me.

You may be the slimiest of the government mouthpieces I've encountered, Olesko. To say "That dust is suspected to have contributed to or caused the deaths (post 9/11) of about 100 firefighters..." I mean, you're beneath contempt. Thousands dead and dying from the asbestos and other particulates. Giuliani and the EPA's Whitman saying the air was fine, and you fault the dead for not wearing breathing gear. I've flushed things that had more decency than you. What are they holding over you to make you behave like this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 02:07 PM

" the buyers of the Sears Tower are part of "Larry Silverstein's group." Therefore, Silverstein is part of THEIR group. Geez. It doesn't matter whose name is on the paperwork, Silverstein's "group" owns it."

It doesn't work that way.   You are female and Republican. That does not mean all Republicans are female.   

Silverstein does not have to be part of their group. They are investors, and most investors have their own portfolio.   While they may be part of some projects together, you can't assume they are part of all projects.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 02:04 PM

My brother-in-law lives in the neighborhood, 5 blocks from the WTC. His apartment has a rooftop patio that was covered in dust and debris. The largest particles were the size of large pebbles but mostly it was a fine dust over everything.   I remember going to visit him two months after the tragedy and you could still smell something in the air.   

In the days after 9/11 you could smell a burning rubber type smell from the fires where I live in NJ - about 15 miles from the WTC. There was more in the air than they are telling us, and we are slowing finding that out.

As to how the floors pulverised, I am not sure if the theory is correct, nor am I sure that explosives would have provided the same result. It seems like explosions would have thrown pieces in all directions rather than downward as it seems to have done. Who knows.

This was an unsual building and unusual circumstances. No building was larger, no building suffered that kind of stress, and the construction was unique. There were also no concrete walls as in other skyscrapers, just relatively thin concrete floors, glass and steel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM

The concrete floors were relatively thin. Maybe 4" thick. The billows/clouds of stuuf taht followed the collapse--recall the video of a guy running away from the white-ish cloud that came after the collapse--was concrete turned into the size of dust particles. The streets were layered with it to a depth of 2 to 3". That dust is suspected to have contributed to or caused the deaths (post 9/11) of about 100 firefighters and other people who were on the scene and not wearing breathing apparatus. They got it in their lungs and contracted 'things' that killed them within a few years, (It is established SOP for firefighters where I am to wear breathing apparatus even after the fire is extinguished because in the aftermath/recovery phase, the burnt structure will keep releasing potentially dangerous gasses and toxins for about 72 hours. Obviously the most dangerous time is during the fire itself and the few hours after it extinguishment.

I am not faulting anyone. The combined weight of bunker gear (the jacket and pants and boots and lid that you see firefighters wear to help protect them from heat and flame) is about 50 pounds. Add another 20 pounds to that for a BA tank and face mask and that guy or gal is carring another 70 pounds in addition to his or her body weight. So, anywhere from 20 to 50% more than the firefighter's 'naked' body weight. That does not yet take into account the clothing the firefighters is wearing under the bunker (turnout) gear. A half hour of that additional weight combined with heavy exertion doing whatever at the fire scene can cause very physically fit young guys (and old guys) to need, big time, ten to fifteen minutes of recouperation time to rest and rehydrate. Some big scenes require that kind of work for hours at a time, so departments rotate ffs in and out of the actual attack scene. If they don't the biggest killer of firefighters (heart attack) will take someone within 48 hours. So, the urge to remove the tanks and jacket (lightens the load by 30 pounds or so) is real and almost irrestable. (Trust me on that one.)

Maybe that type of pulverization is common when large structures collapse. I have never encountered it at scenes. Spalling, flaking, cracking--yes. Concrete being turned into fine dust, no.

That is what prompts my question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 01:40 PM

Interesting that you used the word "demolition" Ebbie.

The floors in the twin towers were 4 inches thick. Then there were the thicker floors at the bottoms of each "block." So how long did it take the pulverization you observed? Half a second? The floors in the towers were bolted, with tens of thousands of massive bolts, to hundreds of steel columns. And the floors below the impacts were undamaged and unheated. So the defenders of the government's "19 boxcutters" theory say that the buildings fell straight down, floor impacting floor impacting floor, and collapsed in 10 seconds. That's freefall speed. The successive impacts of the floors should have SLOWED the collapses. Laws of physics. Why did the buildings fall at freefall speeds?


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