Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15]


BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job

Related threads:
Sept 11, 2001 - 10 yr anniversary thread (39)
BS: Remember 9/11 (123)
BS: Building What? 9/11 (68)
BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference (311)
BS: Did We Imagine 9/11??? (128)
BS: An Investent And Momento Of 9/11, Not! (12)
BS: The Legacy of 9/11 (25)
BS: Kerry acknowledges WTC7 demolition (167)
BS: David Ray Griffin's 9/11 debunking book (1)
BS: 9/11 Solved-Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Confessed (121)
BS: 9/11 eyewitness in WTC sub-basement (23)
BS: Five years after 9/11 (88)
WTC survivor - virus (Hoax) (2)
BS: Did the FBI bomb the WTC in '93? (111) (closed)
BS: 9/11 Conspiracy Theories (24) (closed)
BS: why did the wtc fall down (62) (closed)
BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay? (161) (closed)
BS: Great Collection of 9/11 Related Stuff (2) (closed)
BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View (14) (closed)
Is this the WTC? (19)


GUEST,sooo sweet 14 Jul 07 - 01:16 PM
Ebbie 14 Jul 07 - 01:17 PM
MaineDog 14 Jul 07 - 01:41 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 07 - 01:49 PM
Ebbie 14 Jul 07 - 02:02 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 07 - 02:10 PM
Ebbie 14 Jul 07 - 02:23 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 07 - 02:37 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 07 - 02:47 PM
Bill D 14 Jul 07 - 02:49 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 07 - 04:16 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 07 - 04:23 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 14 Jul 07 - 05:03 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 05:12 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 05:19 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 05:23 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 14 Jul 07 - 05:35 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 05:37 PM
MaineDog 14 Jul 07 - 05:38 PM
Bill D 14 Jul 07 - 06:04 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 06:06 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 06:22 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 07 - 06:40 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 07 - 06:50 PM
Bill D 14 Jul 07 - 06:57 PM
Bill D 14 Jul 07 - 07:00 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 07 - 07:44 PM
MaineDog 14 Jul 07 - 08:20 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 08:28 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 08:39 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 08:40 PM
Bill D 14 Jul 07 - 09:31 PM
Ebbie 14 Jul 07 - 09:44 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 09:57 PM
Bill D 14 Jul 07 - 09:59 PM
Bill D 14 Jul 07 - 10:02 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 10:11 PM
Bill D 14 Jul 07 - 10:21 PM
GUEST,Peter Woodruff 14 Jul 07 - 10:50 PM
Peace 14 Jul 07 - 10:53 PM
GUEST,sooo sweet 15 Jul 07 - 12:12 AM
robomatic 15 Jul 07 - 12:37 AM
robomatic 15 Jul 07 - 12:51 AM
GUEST,sooo sweet 15 Jul 07 - 01:31 AM
CarolC 15 Jul 07 - 01:32 AM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Jul 07 - 01:32 AM
CarolC 15 Jul 07 - 01:47 AM
CarolC 15 Jul 07 - 01:59 AM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Jul 07 - 02:13 AM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Jul 07 - 02:17 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 01:16 PM

Good point CarolC.

Here's a good place for you to start, Bill BobadaFirthaTroupe. The best overall analyst I've come across on the subject of 9/11. David Ray Griffin:

It is, in any case, already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by domestic terrorists. Foreign terrorists could not have gotten access to the buildings to plant the explosives. They probably would not have had the courtesy to make sure that the buildings collapsed straight down, rather than falling over onto surrounding buildings. And they could not have orchestrated a cover-up, from the quick disposal of the steel to the FEMA Report to The 9/11 Commission Report to the NIST Report. All of these things could have been orchestrated only by forces within our own government.

The evidence for this conclusion has thus far been largely ignored by the mainstream press, perhaps under the guise of obeying President Bush's advice not to tolerate "outrageous conspiracy theories." We have seen, however, that it is the Bush administration's conspiracy theory that is the outrageous one, because it is violently contradicted by numerous facts, including some basic laws of physics....

(A good analysis of the Building 7 inconsistencies is at this site):

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

Basically, the government never proved its case for how and why the attacks occurred, and they never demonstrated how the buildings fell. They generated phony numbers, warped the laws of physics and completely ignored little details like the fall of a 47-story skyscraper. And they used the phrase 'theory' over and over in their reports, while warning the public to beware of 'outrageous conspiracy theories.' The arrogance of that is incredible. The 'bipartisan' govt then swept the whole thing aside, which leads to a whole other problem of single-party fascist rule.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 01:17 PM

Appalling as that 'experiment' and others like it were and are, Carol C, there is no comparison possible between it and the 9/11 attack. You must know that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: MaineDog
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 01:41 PM

Making an airplane go where you want to is easy when the weather is good!
Its just about easy as driving your car into your own garage. Think about it, the closer you get, the bigger the target becomes. A student pilot with 15-20 total hours is commonly turned loose for his first solo flight, and very few of them fail to return to the runway safely. Been there, done that.
MD


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 01:49 PM

I think it's a perfect comparison. Because the impulses and the rationales behind the behavior of those involved in both cases were exactly the same. And in the case of the Tuskegee experiment, the suffering of individual human beings was allowed to continue for decades and was witnessed by those perpetrating the crime. It doesn't get much more cold-hearted than that, to watch the suffering of another human being for years and years, knowing full well that it was possible to help alleviate his suffering, and knowing full well that that person was tricked into submitting to this horrendous treatment and would not have submitted to it had he been told the truth. And knowing full well that his wife and children could possibly suffer the same fate as a result of their silence and complicity. That's about as cold-hearted and savage as it is possible for a human being to get.

Fewer people were harmed, but their suffering lasted a long, long time. If people can be cold-hearted, or misguided enough to participate in and remain silent about something like this (including a Surgeon General of the United States - and if he knew about it, more than likely, others at even higher levels of government knew and remained silent about it as well), it's equally possible that people could do the same in the case of an incident like 9/11.

And the Tuskogee experiment is hardly the only example of this sort of thing. There are numerous examples of crimes being committed by our government against civilians that have been covered up and that have required the complicity and silence of numerous people over the years. The CIA's mind control experiments of the 1950s and 1960s is but one example.

The fact is (and this is utterly provable) that faced with sufficient 'justification', or inducement, human beings can and do stoop to the lowest possible kinds of behavior towards their fellow human beings, even your fellow Americans, and members of your government, Ebbie. But I know it's much easier to believe that only people who are very different from us enlightened people in the West could possibly do something like this.

Interesting that you say your knowledge of "human nature" prevents the possibility that people from this country could be responsible. I guess that means you don't think of those you believe are guilty as human beings? Or maybe you don't see the people who committed genocide in Rwanda as human beings? Or the Nazis, or the Communists, or any of the other multitude of people who have committed crimes against humanity? Only people in the US are human beings, and therefore governed by your idea of "human nature"?

And what about the people who lynched Black people in the US south, or the people who owned and/or traded in slaves? How about the people who committed genocide on the indigenous people of what is now the US? Were they not human beings, Ebbie?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 02:02 PM

"...they somehow are more knowledgeable as to human nature than anyone else." Ebbie

"...But I know it's much easier to believe that only people who are very different from us enlightened people in the West could possibly do something like this.

"Interesting that you say your knowledge of "human nature" prevents the possibility that people from this country could be responsible. I guess that means you don't think of those you believe are guilty as human beings? Or maybe you don't see the people who committed genocide in Rwanda as human beings? Or the Nazis, or the Communists, or any of the other multitude of people who have committed crimes against humanity? Only people in the US are human beings, and therefore governed by your idea of "human nature"?

"And what about the people who lynched Black people in the US south, or the people who owned and/or traded in slaves? How about the people who committed genocide on the indigenous people of what is now the US? Were they not human beings, Ebbie? " Carol C

Carol C, you are insane.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 02:10 PM

Ad hominem, Ebbie, with no valid evidence to back it up. It's easy to resort to that sort of tactic when your arguments have been show to contain no logic or substance. Much more difficult, I'd say, to actually argue my points on their merits.

You're the one who is saying that your concept of human nature prevents you from believing that the US government and citizens of the US are capable of perpetrating an act like 9/11. You are the one who is saying that you know more about human nature than the rest of us. I am suggesting that you are very wrong about that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 02:23 PM

Suggest away, Carol C. I said nor implied nothing of the kind.

You know, I used to respect you. I often didn't agree with you but I always read and thought about what you were saying. That is over. I now suspect that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 02:37 PM

Your opinion of me is not important to me, Ebbie, because I lost respect for you a long, long time ago.

You are making your knowledge of human nature one of the lynchpins of your arguments on this subject. When you do that, you leave yourself wide open to have that aspect of your argumentation debated by others. If you don't want people to debate it, don't present it as an important part of your argument.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 02:47 PM

I should tell you that it's your tendency to make personal attacks on people in lieu of debate that caused my reassessment of my regard for you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 02:49 PM

you proclaim ad hominem at Ebbie, yet you use something like Tuskegee to bolster YOUR claims?

"Well, sneaky people sometimes manage to hide their naughtiness, and since the 'true' villains, whom I'm sure must exist, of 9/11 haven't been caught, that proves they are hiding the truth!"

They have been using that technique for years to claim the 100MPG carburetor is just 'being hidden' by the oil companies....proof? Well, we don't have it, so it is being hidden!

Don't you see what the driving premise in your complex syllogism is?

"...whom I'm sure must exist" !

IF you assume that this was an inside job, then you MUST have those other premises in order to reach your already determined conclusion!...and this already determined conclusion was chosen by ignoring or discounting experts like S. Shyam Sunder of NIST in favor of writers and self-proclaimed 'investigators! (read this entire article!)

Once you apply a limited layman's knowledge of physics, building construction, metallurgy, and aircraft fuel to an already huge distrust of the bureaucracy, you arrive at a place where you MUST contrive even more arcane theories and conspiracies in order to support your flawed premises. Layer upon layer of "they" are posited to explain planning, planting explosives, orchestrating cover-ups, coordinating with Muslims, doctoring records, planning the invasion that this was all done to enable, and weaving lies even more complex than the conspiracy to hide the truth!

The Tuskegee lies were minuscule by comparison! That took only hiding some records and swearing a few people to secrecy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 04:16 PM

How is bringing up Tusgegee ad homenem, Bill?

Each individual who kept that secret was doing exactly the same thing as each individual who has kept secrets about US government involvement in 9/11. This is a valid argument, and is in no way an attack on Ebbie. Calling me insane, on the other hand, is a personal attack, and is in no way an argument on the issue.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 04:23 PM

And my opinions on this matter have been arrived at by reading witness testimonies, and by reading reports from civil engineers, aviation experts, pilots, military personnel (including some who were eye witnesses to events on 9/11), and other people who are equally qualified to make their accusations as any of the experts you have provided, Bill, and who have far less of a reason to have a secondary agenda.

Even a large number of the people (experts and witnesses) who testified to the 9/11 commission are saying it was a whitewash and that the commission cherry picked among the things they testified about for inclusion in the report in order to promote a version of events that, while untrue, conforms to the story they want you to believe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:03 PM

Carol - the fires were caused by the damage sustained. As for me showing evidence of a building collapse, perhaps it would be more appropriate for you to show us an example of a building falling sideways as you are suggesting?

Tuskegee is a red herring. We all know that the government lies and has always, and will always, conduct nefarious projects in secret. As issue with the WTC is how they could have pulled it off on such a large scale. The involvement would have required thousands, and someone would have talked - as the whistle blower in Tuskegee did.

Sure there are holes in the "official" report, but there are hundreds more in the conspiracy theories which cannot apply logic to prove their points. Gravity does not work the way you say.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:12 PM

Seems some folks want it two ways.

1) Buildings fall straight down all by themselves because physics says that's the way buildings fall.

2) People who make buildings fall (for a living) spend days ensuring that supporting beams/members are cut basically simultaneously so that the buildings DO fall straight down.

So, which is it to be? If indeed they DO just fall straight doown, then these demolition people are wasting lots of explosives.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:19 PM

The Killer Fires Theory is Pure Fantasy
The simple facts of temperatures:

  1535ºC (2795ºF) - melting point of iron
~1510ºC (2750ºF) - melting point of typical structural steel
  ~825ºC (1517ºF) - maximum temperature of hydrocarbon fires burning in the atmosphere without pressurization or pre-heating (premixed fuel and air - blue flame)
Diffuse flames burn far cooler.
Oxygen-starved diffuse flames are cooler yet.

The fires in the towers were diffuse -- well below 800ºC.
Their dark smoke showed they were oxygen-starved -- particularly in the South Tower.


Some thoughts from the www.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:23 PM

"Moreover, the Final NIST report on the Towers admits:

Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250ºC… Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 ºC. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 ºC. (NIST, 2005, pp. 176-177; emphasis added.)"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:35 PM

Peace- I think the confusion is the word "sideways". The word a lot of people have used in these discussions is "topple" - as if the WTC would fall over like a tree. If you look at the photos, it did NOT fall exactly straight downward. You can see a portion of top lean toward the side as it comes down.

It isn't having it both ways, it is having it the way it actually occured.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:37 PM

Well, the heat theory--steel melted, etc.,--is certainly out to lunch.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: MaineDog
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:38 PM

Steel does not have to melt to become weak. one can easily bend a nail that is heated only to dull red. You can easily get the nail this hot with a simple air-propane torch, (Bernz-o-matic) (?) no oxygen or pressure needed.

I heard a reporter in real time describing the fall of the second tower on my car radio. It was one of the most terrible experiences of in my memory. I don't beleive for a minute that it could have been faked.
It agreed with the tv footage shown later.

MD


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 06:04 PM

I have posted 97 times....well, 3-4 anyway....that NO one is claiming steel melted! The guys who wrote the reports did not say steel melted. SOME steel was broken by impact of a jetliner...which also knocked off fireproofing. And the steel was **WEAKENED** by fire, and sagged, and was unable to support loads.....the load was many floors plus the roof ON those damaged supports. The one with the MOST load & damage fell first, even though it was hit last.

and Carol...I did not SAY Tuskegee was ad hominem. I tried to say that your example was ALSO a logical fallacy..."red herring" is not the technical term, but it makes the point.


I give up....it hit me as I was out chopping up some limbs for recycling and mumbling over this...I am fighting turtles all the way down...

Y'all have fun....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 06:06 PM

So, how did the turtles get in the towers, huh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 06:22 PM

Well, regardless the 'side' you take on this, it's plain that the study that was released was flawed. And equally evident that some white-washing went on. Americans are beginning to question the official story. That may have to be good enough for now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 06:40 PM

Carol - the fires were caused by the damage sustained.

How did the fires get into the basement, Ron?

As for me showing evidence of a building collapse, perhaps it would be more appropriate for you to show us an example of a building falling sideways as you are suggesting?

I'm not suggesting they fall sideways. I'm saying that steel I beam construction buildings don't fall due to fire. Prior to 9/11, not one ever has, nor have any since.

Tuskegee is a red herring.

It's not a red herring if someone is saying that human nature makes it impossible to believe that our government could have been complicit. We can see from numerous examples that human nature is capable of pretty much anything.

We all know that the government lies and has always, and will always, conduct nefarious projects in secret. As issue with the WTC is how they could have pulled it off on such a large scale. The involvement would have required thousands, and someone would have talked - as the whistle blower in Tuskegee did.

It took about 40 years for that person to blow the whistle, Ron. How many hundreds, or even thousands of people had to have been involved and keeping silent in those 40 years, including at least one very high level member of the federal administration at the time.

I don't agree that thousands would have needed to know what was going on in order to be involved. Highly compartmentalized operations can be accomplished with relatively few people knowing what's really going on until after the fact. And then, afterwards, the people involved have a stake in keeping things a secret, because they, themselves, have become complicit, even though they may not have known what they were becoming involved in before hand. And we know for a fact that there are numerous people worldwide who make their living conducting black ops and other kinds of covert operations, many of which involve the loss of civilian life. We usually don't ever know what these people do, but sometimes we find out, but not necessarily because the people involved have come forward about what they were doing.

And many, many people have come forward about 9/11, but you can see for yourself how much trouble they can get into for doing it. They are being threatened with all kinds of things for coming forward, by the government and by others. But they are still doing it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 06:50 PM

and Carol...I did not SAY Tuskegee was ad hominem. I tried to say that your example was ALSO a logical fallacy..."red herring" is not the technical term, but it makes the point.

Logical fallacy is a completely different thing than ad hominem (personal attack). You feel I made a logical fallacy (I have shown you that I did not), but that is an altogether different thing than calling me insane. And that's what I was referring to when I said "Ad hominem, Ebbie". And it was perfectly reasonable for me to do so. There's no place for personal attacks in any kind of discussion on any subject. Personal attacks are not a substitute for debate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 06:57 PM

Informal fallacies- #1

generalization

bad analogy

...ummmm

(there are even better pages to illustrate fallacies)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 07:00 PM

(I used to be able to catagorize fallacies more accurately--I am out of practice...it is not always obvious exactly which one is relevant, as there are often hidden assumptions involved.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 07:44 PM

Bill, in order to arrive at the conclusion that my having brought up Tuskegee is a logical fallacy, you first needed to make assumptions about why I brought it up. You illustrated those assumptions in your post in which you described the nature of the point I was trying to make in having brought it up. You and your assumptions were wrong. (Is making assumptions about others' meanings and intentions any kind of logical fallacy, or is it just bad debating technique?)

As I have said before, Ebbie has stated on more than one occasion that it is not possible for 9/11 to have been perpetrated by the US government because for them to have done so would violate her (Ebbie's) beliefs about human nature.

It was not at all a logical fallacy for me to point out that human nature is capable of any sort of cold blooded and cruel behavior, and for me to provide an example of such behavior. Which is why I brought up Tuskegee.

And personal attacks are more than just a logical fallacy. I choose to point them out using the term "ad hominem", but I could just as easily use the term "personal attack". They are not appropriate in any kind of discussion, and they are against the rules here in the Mudcat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: MaineDog
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 08:20 PM

Deg F = (9/5) * Deg C + 32

if deg c = 800 , then Deg F = 1472

Plenty enough to soften steel.

Please do not offend us with the cheap trick of confusing Farenhite
and Centigrade to try to prove that your ridiculous agenda is factual.

If you really want to know the truth, there never were any twin towers anyway, the whole thing is a fabrication. I know this because they were not there in 1968, the last time I was in NYC, and everyone says that they are not there now. Those wierd shapes I saw from the Throgs Neck bridge in 1999 were obviously mirages. My reality is more true than your reality because my beard is longer than yours. QED.


MD


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 08:28 PM

And if the steel had been melted or softened equally in all directions you'd have a case. As it is, you don't.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 08:39 PM

Melting Point [of construction steel]: 1535.0 °C (1808.15 K, 2795.0 °F)

************************************************************

FEMA itself said that temperatures inside the WTC towers reached 1700-2000 degrees Fahrenheit

************************************************************

But we need to return to the laws of physics once again, for after each airliner crashed into the WTC towers, the great explosions consumed most of the jet fuel within minutes. In a report entitled Jet Fuel: How Hot Did It Heat the World Trade Center that was posted on Hawaii Indymedia, we find this scientific observation: "The time to consume the jet fuel can be reasonably computed. At the upper bound, if one assumes that all 10,000 gallons of fuel were evenly spread across a single building floor, it would form a pool that would be consumed by the fire in less than five minutes."

Of course, other items were also burning, including the cabinets, carpets, walls, paper, and furniture inside the WTC towers. But even then, if all of these items burned with perfect efficiency, the temperature could still not reach that needed to melt steel. Try it sometime. Plus, after the initial blaze, we could see on TV that by 9:03 am – only eighteen minutes after the first tower was struck – most of the fire was reduced to black smoke, thus meaning that it was starved for oxygen and was by now just a smoldering, low-temperature fire – not a continual rip-roaring blaze. What this obviously implies is that liquid fuel doesn't burn hot for long, and it evaporates or boils as it burns.

So, two huge questions remain: (1) what actually made this construction-grade steel melt when it obviously wasn't jet fuel, and (2) how could the South Tower collapse in just 47 minutes – half the time it took for the North Tower to come down – when it had a much smaller fire? Maybe the 9-11 Commission should start finding answers for these questions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 08:40 PM

All the above is from here and there on the www. But since it don't matter shit to anyone, I didn't bother quoting sources.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 09:31 PM

(1) it wasn't "construction grade steel" It was a special 'box' girder, thinner than the usual 'steel' I-beams in many buildings.
(1b) it didn't 'melt'..it distorted and buckled and sagged.
(2) the south tower was hit lower, and at an angle, compromising more floors and having more weight above it.

Here, against my usual practice for C&P, are the relevant passages.

"The fire is the most misunderstood part of the WTC collapse. Even today, the media report (and many scientists believe) that the steel melted. It is argued that the jet fuel burns very hot, especially with so much fuel present. This is not true. "

(*but pretty durned hot...briefly*)

----------------

"Part of the problem is that people (including engineers) often confuse temperature and heat. While they are related, they are not the same. Thermodynamically, the heat contained in a material is related to the temperature through the heat capacity and the density (or mass). Temperature is defined as an intensive property, meaning that it does not vary with the quantity of material, while the heat is an extensive property, which does vary with the amount of material. One way to distinguish the two is to note that if a second log is added to the fireplace, the temperature does not double; it stays roughly the same, but the size of the fire or the length of time the fire burns, or a combination of the two, doubles. Thus, the fact that there were 90,000 L of jet fuel on a few floors of the WTC does not mean that this was an unusually hot fire. The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel."

"It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.4 This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650°C fire."

*so....WHY did it fail? ...read on...Note: much of these 'box column' structure was **DAMAGED**....a simple fire, by itself would not have caused collapse....nor would a plane strike with NO fire.

"The additional problem was distortion of the steel in the fire. The temperature of the fire was not uniform everywhere, and the temperature on the outside of the box columns was clearly lower than on the side facing the fire. The temperature along the 18 m long joists was certainly not uniform. Given the thermal expansion of steel, a 150°C temperature difference from one location to another will produce yield-level residual stresses. This produced distortions in the slender structural steel, which resulted in buckling failures. Thus, the failure of the steel was due to two factors: loss of strength due to the temperature of the fire, and loss of structural integrity due to distortion of the steel from the non-uniform temperatures in the fire."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 09:44 PM

"As I have said before, Ebbie has stated on more than one occasion that it is not possible for 9/11 to have been perpetrated by the US government because for them to have done so would violate her (Ebbie's) beliefs about human nature."

Huh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 09:57 PM

"The World Trade Center steel was thought to be some of the heaviest, thickest steel ever used in construction. Its outer skeleton comprised of steel beams up to two feet thick. "

From a BBC site.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 09:59 PM

The BBC is confused... maybe some structures were 2ft. square...but they would have been hollow.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 10:02 PM

(The design was especially contrived to NOT need super-heavy steel, so they could build that high with minimum weight...it was vaguely similar to a honeycomb structure)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 10:11 PM

Right you are, Bill. I was just reading that on a site where the guy who designed the towers talked about them and what he thought caused the collapse. It was as you said. Which brings me back to the beginning of the circle. Why have so many questions gone unanswered?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 10:21 PM

I 'think' that most relevant questions have been answered on certain sites.

When there are doubts, no one can possibly answer all the questions posed by those who are dead-set to doubt.

I can't speak for, of course, those who have simply refused to keep repeating the answers over & over, and who keep getting asked new questions the grow from new hypotheticals. ....Plus, there are things which can't BE answered about the exact flow of jet fuel and the exact distribution of debris that hit surrounding buildings...etc.

One can invent an infinite # of questions...but there needs to be 'some' criteria of what questions are truly relevant and not already covered.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 10:50 PM

Be sure to wear orange on July 23rd.

Peter


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 10:53 PM

Right . . . .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 12:12 AM

So, why don't the burners on my stovetop buckle and sag and collapse?

Steel. 47 of the biggest steel core columns on the planet in each tower. Steel support columns around the outsides of the towers. the buildings designed to absorb impact like a pencil going through a screen...weight-bearing just shifts to other supports. And steel, steel, steel.

But say the towers were made of popsicle sticks. How could they have fallen in 10 seconds? One floor falls onto another and encounters resistance, same with the next, the next, etc. Even with popsicle sticks as construction material, it is physically impossible for the collapses to have happened in 10 seconds. Physically impossible. Unless you factor in explosives clearing the way ahead of the collapse area. Blow the floor beneath so no resistance is encountered, and free fall speed can be achieved. That is the only way. You don't need Isaac Newton to remind you of this, you just need to watch the 10-second collapse as concrete and steel is aerosolized, and multi-ton beams are thrown UPWARDS and out hundreds of yards.

Again, someone tell me why the burners on my stove don't collapse.

The 9/11 Truth movement is about to get a HUGE shot in the arm when Cindy Sheehan squares off against Bush's partner-in-crime Nancy Pelosi. I think I've handed out over a thousand tapes and discs about 9/11 now. My favorite lately is to leave them wherever I find Selective Service material. Post offices have little holders full of brochures, so I put my discs in those. "Free Video." 8 hours of 9/11 Truth videos.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 12:37 AM

so sweet writted:
The government owns the media.

No It doesn't


Nova and PBS are government-funded bullshit.

No they are not

Of course the killers are going to put out PR saying someone else did it. Watch the Nova nonsense, then watch videos of the towers aerosolizing in 10 seconds. Then conclude that Isaac Newton was indeed insane and the jeenyuses at Nova know more than Newton. (do you actually WEAR blinders?)

No I don't wear blinders. I do actually try to use reason, knowledge and evidence to arrive at conclusions. Try it sometime.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 12:51 AM

CarolC you wrote:
Do you really think, robomatic, that being severely damaged on one side can account for a perfect free fall speed demolition that we saw with building 7? If you can't apply the 'science' that the NOVA people are trying to use for the other two buildings, how can you possibly believe that it fell for any reason other than controlled demolition?

CarolC: I think you are misinterpreting my last message. I think one can apply the laws of physics to the motions of all the participants in the events of 911. I find the Nova article and their website to be perfectly clear and convincing. The fact that I don't know anything about WTC7 is an example of the limits of my knowledge, which doesn't imply that it can't be explained by the NIST in some other venue. I simply haven't studied the matter.

so sweet is utterly unconvincing. Unless you can put together some assemblage of facts indicating the towers fell by something other than the NIST conclusion, I don't find this thread going anywhere.

One interesting side note which I'm pretty sure I've mentioned earlier. In the Summer of '01 the writer/ producer behind "X-Files" aired the first episode of "The Lone Gunmen" where one of the heroes finds himself on an airliner being remote flown into the World Trade Center!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 01:31 AM

Thank you mr robomatic. Now could you please use your reason to tell me why my stove burners don't melt?

Bertrand Russel said, "Education should aim at destroying free will, so that, after pupils have left school, they shall be incapable, throughout the rest of their lives, of thinking or acting otherwise than as their schoolmasters would have wished. . . . Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible." This is happening. You zomboids are the result of brainwashing programs. Turn off your TVs. Watch the Zapruder film without the narrator telling you the shot to the forehead was Oswald's final bullet hitting from the rear. Watch the towers blow up and collapse in an impossible ten seconds without the narrator telling you "the fires did their work."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 01:32 AM

The words of one of the whistle blowers, Kevin Ryan, formerly of Underwriters Laboratories (until they fired him for being a whistle blower)...


By the time UL tested the floor assembly models in August of that year, I had been promoted to the top management job in my division, Environmental Health Laboratories, overseeing all company functions. Two months later, NIST released an official update that included the floor test results, as well as Frank Gayle's results, in which steel temperatures were predicted. These results clearly invalidated the major theories of collapse, because pancaking could not occur without floor collapse and steel does not turn to licorice at the temperatures discussed.

After reviewing this update, I sent a letter directly to Dr. Gayle at NIST. In this letter, I referred to my experiences at UL and asked for more information on the WTC investigation and NIST's soon-to-be-published conclusions. NIST had planned at the time to release its final report in December, with time allowed for public comment. After I allowed my letter to become public,22 this date was moved to January 2005, and then nothing was heard from NIST for several months.

Other than UL's involvement in testing the steel components, the facts I stated had all been reported publicly, but when I put them together plainly, they were considered outrageous. Five days after I sent my letter, I was fired by UL for doing so. The company made a few brief statements in an attempt to discredit me, then quickly began to make it clear that its relationship with the government, perhaps due to its tax-exempt status, was more important than its commitment to public safety.

For example, in spite of Tom Chapin's previous statements, UL suggested that it had played only a "limited" role in the investigation. Despite what our CEO, Loring Knoblauch, had written and copied to several executives, UL said there was "no evidence" that any firm had tested the steel used in the WTC buildings.23 In doing so, UL implied that its CEO not only had fabricated this story about testing the WTC steel but had also spoken and written about it for several years without anyone in the company correcting him. As I see it, the only other option was that the company claiming to be our "Public Safety Guardian" was lying to us about the most important safety issue of our lives.

My experiences give a taste for the delicate nature of our critical turning point. But to keep our focus, we should examine what NIST did with the results of its physical tests, which had failed to support its conclusions. Did NIST perform more tests, at least to prove its key argument that much of the fireproofing on the steel in the Twin Towers popped off due to the impact of the airliners? No, it did not. Instead, NIST put together a black box computer model that would spit out the right answers. This black box model was driven by initial parameters that could be tweaked. When the parameters that had initially been considered "realistic" did not generate results that "compared to observed events," NIST scientists performed their final analysis using another set of parameters they called "more severe."24 When they were finished, their model produced video graphics that would enable anyone to see the buildings collapse without having to follow a train of logic to get there.

Tom Chapin of UL was one of those doomed to make public comments in support of NIST's final report. His comments were innocuous enough but he did hint at something of value. "The effect of scale of test assemblies...," Chapin said, "requires more investigation."25 This may be the closest thing to a straightforward statement that we will ever see from UL on the matter. But it seems clear enough that results showing zero floor collapse, when scaled-up from the floor panels to a few floors, would still result in zero floor collapse. Perhaps a more direct version of Chapin's comment might be that test results negating predetermined conclusions should not be used to prove them.

Other than the video, NIST left us with only some vague statements about a few sagging floors suddenly destroying two hundred super-strong perimeter columns and forty core columns. But since sagging floors do not weigh more than non-sagging floors, it is difficult to see how this might occur, especially so uniformly. NIST claimed the perimeter columns saw increased loads of between 0 and 25% due to the damage, but it never reconciled this with the original claim that these columns could resist 2000% increases in live load. And the outward-buckling theory, suggested by Thornton, was changed again to inward buckling---apparently the forces involved were never well defined. Additionally, NIST suggested that the documents that would support testing of the steel components, along with documents containing Skilling's jet-fuel-fire analysis, could not be found.26

Ultimately, NIST failed to give any explanation for the dynamics of the towers as they fell, about how and why they dropped like rocks in free-fall. For both buildings, NIST simply stated that "once the upper building section began to move downwards . . ., global collapse ensued," as if just saying so was enough.27 As for WTC7, NIST as of yet has not elaborated on its "working collapse hypothesis," which was vaguely presented in June 2004.28 The bottom line is that, after more than four years, it is still impossible for the government even to begin to explain the primary events that drive this War on Terrorism.

http://www.911review.com/articles/ryan/lies_about_wtc.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 01:32 AM

"why don't the burners on my stovetop buckle and sag and collapse?"

They do - I have replaced them on my mothers 30 year old stove.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 01:47 AM

I see now that I remembered incorrectly about what Ebbie said. This is what she said in a previous thread, and I guess her point in bringing up human nature in this thread is the same...

As others have also said, the thing that keeps me from swallowing the froth is the sheer numbers needed to be silent. That is not the nature of the beast that I know.


Nevertheless, the Tuskegee experiment example is still perfectly appropriate, since 40 years of being silent would involve a lot of people (including high level members of the government). If it were not in the nature of the beast Ebbie knows for large numbers of people to remain silent, it wouldn't have taken 40 years for the first whistle blower to blow the whistle on Tuskegee.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 01:59 AM

A little bit more from Kevin Ryan (same webpage as my previous link)...


In August 2004, Underwriters Laboratories evaluated the Pancake Theory by testing models of the floor assemblies used in the WTC buildings. Despite all the previous expert testimony, the floor models did not collapse. NIST reported this in its October 2004 update, in a table of results that clearly showed that the floors did not fail and that, therefore, pancaking was not possible.14 NIST more succinctly stated this again in its June 2005 draft report, saying: "The results established that this type of assembly was capable of sustaining a large gravity load, without collapsing, for a substantial period of time relative to the duration of the fires in any given location on September 11th."15


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 02:13 AM

If you look up some very old 'Private Eye' you will foind reprints of newspaper accoutns of full scale buildings built in that era in that style where the wall supports were moved by pressure impacts and the floors pancaked. There was a lot of fuss and in future buildings teh walls and floors had to be tied together strongly.

'Models' do not always behave the same way as full scale - all engineers are taught that, and also the many reasons why, Since you claim to know all that stuff better than us, you can easily tell us all now...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 02:17 AM

200!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 19 April 9:50 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.