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BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job

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WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jul 07 - 04:56 PM
Captain Ginger 17 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM
Don Firth 17 Jul 07 - 05:14 PM
Peace 17 Jul 07 - 05:14 PM
CarolC 17 Jul 07 - 05:19 PM
CarolC 17 Jul 07 - 05:27 PM
Don Firth 17 Jul 07 - 05:36 PM
Donuel 17 Jul 07 - 05:39 PM
CarolC 17 Jul 07 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,sooo sweet 17 Jul 07 - 07:27 PM
Don Firth 17 Jul 07 - 07:47 PM
Don Firth 17 Jul 07 - 07:50 PM
Peace 17 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM
CarolC 17 Jul 07 - 09:16 PM
Peace 17 Jul 07 - 09:17 PM
Ebbie 17 Jul 07 - 11:01 PM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Jul 07 - 11:42 PM
Don Firth 17 Jul 07 - 11:48 PM
Peace 17 Jul 07 - 11:52 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jul 07 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,sooo sweet 18 Jul 07 - 12:00 AM
Peace 18 Jul 07 - 12:00 AM
Ebbie 18 Jul 07 - 12:07 AM
Peace 18 Jul 07 - 12:16 AM
Ebbie 18 Jul 07 - 12:20 AM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Jul 07 - 12:29 AM
Peace 18 Jul 07 - 12:29 AM
CarolC 18 Jul 07 - 12:30 AM
Ebbie 18 Jul 07 - 12:33 AM
CarolC 18 Jul 07 - 12:37 AM
CarolC 18 Jul 07 - 12:38 AM
Peace 18 Jul 07 - 12:40 AM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Jul 07 - 01:27 AM
Peace 18 Jul 07 - 01:36 AM
Peace 18 Jul 07 - 01:38 AM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Jul 07 - 01:48 AM
beardedbruce 18 Jul 07 - 06:59 AM
beardedbruce 18 Jul 07 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,sooo sweet 18 Jul 07 - 08:09 AM
beardedbruce 18 Jul 07 - 08:22 AM
beardedbruce 18 Jul 07 - 08:28 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 07 - 09:41 AM
Donuel 18 Jul 07 - 10:24 AM
Donuel 18 Jul 07 - 10:25 AM
Donuel 18 Jul 07 - 10:26 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 07 - 11:02 AM
beardedbruce 18 Jul 07 - 11:22 AM
Little Hawk 18 Jul 07 - 11:54 AM
Donuel 18 Jul 07 - 11:58 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 04:56 PM

My mistake, I was commenting on Peace's comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM

Substance?
Certainly not. Unlike the other posters here, I have not been directly involved in the investigation, and neither do I have any relevant professional qualifications.
Unusually, perhaps, I'm just an interested bystander; an ordinary Joe if you like. Put me down as the one person in this thread who doesn't have an axe to grind or an inside track. As such, I speak as I find. And, reading the (admittedly biassed, liberal and probably treacherous) British media, along with the various analyses by people who would seem from their experience and qualifications to know what they're talking about, I have reached the conclusions I have.
All I can say as an 'expert witness' is that I have seen plenty of buildings of various sizes and construction made to collapse by various means, and I have no reason to doubt that the collapse of the Twin Towers and the damage to the surrounding buildings was caused by aircraft impact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 05:14 PM

"As I see it, it's almost helpful for the administration to have to deal with a bunch of crackpot conspiracy theorists who fantasise about demolition charges and deliberate state action because it helps deflect attention from years of stupidity and state inaction in US foreign and domestic policy."

Exactly, Captain Ginger. That's a point I have been trying to make.

There is no doubt that the Bush administration was criminally neglegent in ignoring the many warnings and indications. My "conspiracy theory" (and it's more that just a theory; there is a great deal of tesimony to the effect from people who tried to sound a warning and were simply ignored) is that the Bush administration was fairly sure that such an attack was indeed coming, and since it would suit their purposes (provide an excuse to establish a military presence in the Middle East), they simply sat back and let it happen.

That is bad enough!

What's the point of concocting elaborated scenarios to try to make the Devil look more evil than he already is? It tends to obscures the enormity of truth.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 05:14 PM

Well, we can rest comfortably knowing that the BBC knew Building 7 was coming down before it did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 05:19 PM

As I see it, it's almost helpful for the administration to have to deal with a bunch of crackpot conspiracy theorists who fantasise about demolition charges and deliberate state action because it helps deflect attention from years of stupidity and state inaction in US foreign and domestic policy."

Exactly, Captain Ginger. That's a point I have been trying to make.


Nonsense. This is a red herring. There's no reason why a comprehensive independent investigation cannot answer all questions, including those asking whether or not it was incompetence (or bad policy) that caused or enabled the events on 9/11.

There isn't any reason at all to silence anyone who wants to ask what they consider legitimate questions, unless what you are trying to do is suppress investigation into questions that make you personally uncomfortable for reasons of your own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 05:27 PM

( ...it's also a false dichotomy.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 05:36 PM

I have no desire to stifle legitimate questions, Carol. What I have serious doubts about is when those who pose those legitimate questions claim to have all the answers, and then have manufacture evidence and play fast and loose with the laws of physics in a desparate effort to support those answers.

That's the red herring!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 05:39 PM

Last night I saw South Park's show on 9-11 being an inside job.
It was exellent. The show was followed by lil Bush and featured GW Condi Don and Dick naked. W was miniscule.

Later that night an outstanding comerical came on selling the talking Steve Irwin doll that would exclaim KRICKY and OH NO. It is currently for sale at Toys r Us.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Michael Moore is asking the same question I posed here 6 years ago.
Of the 100's of cameras surrounding the Pentagon why can't we see a single video of the airliner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 05:54 PM

I have no desire to stifle legitimate questions, Carol. What I have serious doubts about is when those who pose those legitimate questions claim to have all the answers, and then have manufacture evidence and play fast and loose with the laws of physics in a desparate effort to support those answers.

Some of the people questioning the official version of events have done this but not all have. But your posts seem to consistently call for everyone who doesn't agree with your ideas of what's what to shut up.

Still, even the people who are doing what you say can't do any real harm to any kind of legitimate, independent, peer reviewed investigation, so if you are trying to silence even those people, it's really more because of personal annoyance with them than because they are causing any real problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 07:27 PM

Okay...so what'd we settle on for the suspension of the laws of physics on 9/11. Was it the 'buildings fell from rust' theory, or did the transformers do it?

Please clarify all references to transformers. Are you people talking about cartoon characters now being responsible?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 07:47 PM

"But your posts seem to consistently call for everyone who doesn't agree with your ideas of what's what to shut up."

A mischaracterization of what I have been saying. Not what I have been saying at all, and I think you know that.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 07:50 PM

You, too, Sweetie Pie. Go back and check the links I posted having to do with transformers. Or did you skip them because they blow your "zippering explosions" idea?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM

On your mark, get set,


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 09:16 PM

A mischaracterization of what I have been saying. Not what I have been saying at all, and I think you know that.

You think wrong, Don. But I'm glad to learn that you do not intend to do what I thought you were doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 09:17 PM

Worth reading AND watching, closely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:01 PM

In those videos they say that on 7/7, the day of the London Tube attack, there was a drill of the same scenario. Does anyone know anything of this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:42 PM

Falling masses, don't travel "at speed", they accelerate with the rate of acceleration due to gravity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:48 PM

Interesting video. Far from corroborating what the text on that web site says, if you click on the "VIDEO CAMERA 1 wmv file" (which calls up Windows Media Player) and then you maximize the screen, at about 1:26 into the video, you can see what appears to be the nose of an airliner-size aircraft skimming just above the ground and heading straight for the side of the building.

Maximizing the screen makes it a bit blurry, but using Windows Media Player also makes it possible to pause the video, back it up a few seconds and play it again. Which I have just done, several times. There is definitely an aircraft, on a collision course with the side of the building. Since the video is a series of "freeze frames" (typical for a security camera), the next frame shows the explosion of impact.

With only the forward section of the plane in the single frame, it's impossible to identify it as specifically a Boeing 757-200. But there is definitely something that looks like an airliner heading toward the building.

If you don't think it's there, look again!

Also, in follow-up photographs (some of which have been posted on this thread), there is a substantial amount of aircraft debris scattered about where one would expect to find it:    inside the building. Heavier parts, such as engines and landing gear in more or less one piece, but also bits and pieces of fuselage and wings, an engine cowling, various other twisted bits of debris. But that would be expected. When an airliner piles into the side of a building, it doesn't leave much of the plane intact.

I once worked at Boeing (engineering support) and I know how these things are put together.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:52 PM

My issue with the video is that the object entering from the right at 24 or 25 seconds into the video doesn't at all look big enough to be a 757.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:56 PM

Odd. What I see (not very distinctly) in those videos is what appears to be a smallish, white aircraft of some kind, but not a huge airliner, and it's going level to the ground, and damn fast. It looks more like a cruise missile to me, which is what some eyewitnesses there on that day have said they both heard and saw. Others said they saw a Boeing 757. Others said they saw a small white plane. The French author, Thierry Meyssan, who wrote that book "The Big Lie" thinks it was a military cruise missile, fired by someone in the American defense establishment.

I went cruising around on the Net and found this article Robbins' article attacking the French author by James S. Robbins of the National Review. He disagrees extremely with Thierry Meyssan and says he was there on that day and saw the 757 dive on the building. In his words:

"I went back to my office around 9:20. A short time later a friend of mine called, an Air Force officer, and we spoke awhile about the strikes in New York. I was standing, looking out my large office window, which faces west and from six stories up has a commanding view of the Potomac and the Virginia heights. (When I hired on my boss said we had the best view in town. True, most days.) The Pentagon is about a mile and half distant in the center of the tableau. I was looking directly at it when the aircraft struck. The sight of the 757 diving in at an unrecoverable angle is frozen in my memory, but at the time, I did not immediately comprehend what I was witnessing. There was a silvery flash, an explosion, and a dark, mushroom shaped cloud rose over the building. I froze, gaping for a second until the sound of the detonation, a sharp pop at that distance, shook me out of it.

Odd....because what shows in the video is not a
757 diving on the building, but what looks like a considerably smaller white vehicle flying low and dead level, just above the ground, straight into the building.

The government story is that the plane clipped several light poles in its descent, bounced off the lawn or slid across the lawn, and slammed into the building.

But photos of the damage before the fire department even arrived show no damage at all to the lawn, no debris on the lawn, and no 757 sized marks of damage to the outer face of the building...no evidence of the wings or tail striking the building...no evidence of the heavy, wing-mounted engines striking the building.

The damage to the building shown by photos taken on that day before the fires caused the roof to fall in is consistent with the kind of damage that would be done by a bunker-penetrating cruise missile. It's a single hole, such as would be made by such a missile. A 757 would have made a central hole where the fuselage hit, a large hole on either side where each engine struck, and some large extended areas of damage to either side where the wings struck, and some additional damage above the central hole where the tail struck. But what did we have? Just the central hole, period, as would be made by a cruise missile or a much smaller airframe than that of a 757.

So who is lying here? Or who is misconstruing what happened? Is there any way for you or I to know who is lying? Not really. Lies are often told. (Remember the great one about the babies being removed from incubators and left to die by Saddam's "fiendish" soldiers in Kuwait City? It was an eyewitness report by a personable young woman who wept as she told it. Totally convincing. Everyone believed it. It got the American public onside to support the Gulf War in 1991. But it turned out to be a totally fabricated lie, crafted to sway public opinion. She was a good actor.)   

So we have no way of knowing who is lying. We have to go on faith. But at least we do have some pictures taken by the media and by satellite on that day, both immediately after the explosion and some time later, and they might indicate something, right? Those pictures do not indicate to me that a 757 hit either the Pentagon...or the lawn...on Sept 11th.

The whole thing is extremely odd, to say the least.

Do I have a final conclusion about it? No. But it's odd.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:00 AM

On a BBC Radio 5 interview that aired on the evening of the 7th, the host interviewed Peter Power, a former Scotland Yard official, working at one time with the Anti Terrorist Branch, now Managing Director of Visor Consultants, which bills itself as a 'crisis management' advice company.

Power was quoted as saying "At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now"

http://prisonplanet.com/Pages/Jul05/160705web_of_deceit.html

Government-sponsored terrorism works. The Blair crowd saw Bush/Cheney getting away with 9/11, so they staged the London thing to get the Brits to give up more rights. The "authorities" DO the job, then we run to them and ask them to protect us.

And now, Homeland Security czar Michael Chertoff is saying Americans haven't traded enough liberty for security, and he has a 'gut feeling' we're going to be attacked again. They're setting up ANOTHER event and pre-conditioning you to think the attack is a result of you not giving your freedoms to the government.

-----

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:00 AM

Thing is, these were the videos released BY the Pentagon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:07 AM

I watched the videos that Peace linked to, and played them over and over. There are two scenes- same scene but one is from farther away.

In the upper video this is the sequence:

Police car going through intersection at 2:04 on the video clock
There is a white streak traveling from right to left at 1:42
(Adding to the confusion a car races past the building at :25.)

In the lower video this is the sequence:

Police car in intersection: 3:11
Streak: 2:56

I don't understand the discrepancy of time: 22 seconds versus 15 seconds. Even allowing for camera speed differences, that seems over-much. Anyone have any ideas?

NOTE: It definitely appears that the streak is traveling directly at the spot where, less than a heartbeat later, there is a tremendous explosion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:16 AM

I don't know that the videos were synchronized. But that 'white streak' doesn't look like a 757 to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:20 AM

I know what you mean, Peace. I wonder if there is another video extant that covers a different side or comes from a different angle?

But there most definitely was an airplane that crashed at the Pentagon that day:

American Airlines Flight 77, from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon with 64 people aboard.
CREW
Charles Burlingame of Herndon, Virginia,
David Charlebois, who lived in Washington's Dupont Circle neighborhood,
Michele Heidenberger of Chevy Chase, Maryland, was a flight attendant
Flight attendant Jennifer Lewis, 38, of Culpeper, Virginia,
Flight attendant Kenneth Lewis, 49, of Culpeper, Virginia,.
Renee May, 39, of Baltimore, Maryland, was a flight attendant.

PASSENGERS
Paul Ambrose, 32, of Washington,
Yeneneh Betru, 35, was from Burbank, California.
M.J. Booth
Bernard Brown, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington
Suzanne Calley, 42, of San Martin, California,
William Caswell
Sarah Clark, 65, of Columbia, Maryland,.
Asia Cottom, 11, was a student at Backus Middle School in Washington.
James Debeuneure, 58, of Upper Marlboro, Maryland,
Rodney Dickens, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington.
Eddie Dillard
Charles Droz
Barbara Edwards, 58, of Las Vegas, Nevada,
Charles S. Falkenberg, 45, of University Park, Maryland,
Zoe Falkenberg, 8, of University Park, Maryland,
Dana Falkenberg, 3, of University Park, Maryland,
Joe Ferguson was the director of the National Geographic Society's geography education outreach
Wilson "Bud" Flagg of Millwood, Virginia
Dee Flagg
Richard Gabriel
Ian Gray, 55, of Washington was the president of a health-care consulting firm.
Stanley Hall, 68, was from Rancho Palos Verdes, California.
Bryan Jack, 48, of Alexandria, Virginia
Steven D. "Jake" Jacoby, 43, of Alexandria, Virginia
Ann Judge, 49, of Virginia
Chandler Keller, 29, was a Boeing propulsion engineer from El Segundo, California.
Yvonne Kennedy
Norma Khan, 45, from Reston, Virginia
Karen A. Kincaid, 40, was a lawyer with the Washington firm of Wiley Rein & Fielding.
Norma Langsteuerle
Dong Lee
Dora Menchaca, 45, of Santa Monica, California,
Christopher Newton, 38, of Anaheim, California,
Barbara Olson, 45, was a conservative commentator who often appeared on CNN and was married to U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson. She twice called her husband as the plane was being hijacked and described some details, including that the attackers were armed with knives. She had planned to take a different flight, but she changed it at the last minute so that she could be with her husband on his birthday.
Ruben Ornedo, 39, of Los Angeles, California, was a Boeing propulsion engineer.
Robert Penniger, 63, of Poway, California, was an electrical engineer with BAE Systems.
Lisa Raines, 42, was senior vice president for government relations at the Washington office of Genzyme, a biotechnology firm.
Todd Reuben, 40, of Potomac, Maryland,
John Sammartino
Diane Simmons
George Simmons
Mari-Rae Sopper of Santa Barbara, California,
Bob Speisman, 47, was from Irvington, New York.
Hilda Taylor was a sixth-grade teacher at Leckie Elementary School in Washington.
Leonard Taylor was from Reston, Virginia.
Leslie A. Whittington, 45, was from University Park, Maryland.
John Yamnicky, 71, was from Waldorf, Maryland.
Vicki Yancey
Shuyin Yang
Yuguag Zheng


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:29 AM

"American Airlines Flight 77, from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon with 64 people aboard"

So for the conspiracy theorists to be right that this place DID NOT crash into the Pentagon, these people must be somewhere (alive or dead), or the US Govt got the plane to fly out to sea then shot it down, where it was too deep to be recovered...

If dead, where are bodies?

If alive, where are they being held?

"You don't have to prove the validity of any alternative scenario or theory in order to disprove an existing theory" ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:29 AM

There was a 757 that disappeared that day. I truly don't know that it crashed into the Pentagon. If it did, what was the purpose of the 'thing' that is in the videos? And where is the wreckage of the plane? Overhead shot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:30 AM

The thing I see in that video cannot possibly be a Boeing 757. It's way too small.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:33 AM

As Fooles suggested, those passengers and crew went somewhere.

And they did exist. Surviving family and friends even held memorial services for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:37 AM

Here's a good visual to compare the thing in the video with a Boeing 757...

http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/pentagon&plane.jpeg

The thing in the video wasn't even close to this big.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:38 AM

Another question to be answered in an independent investigation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:40 AM

I know, Ebbie. That's what is so confusing. And that is why there needs to be another investigation that does NOT include government, doesn't include FBI and sure as hell's on fire, doesn't include any of the people from the 9/11 Commission. Something is rotten. Has been for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 01:27 AM

I checked the 'find the boeing' site.

Sadly for the conspiracy theorists, the entry point is clearly shown, and on each side of the otherwise parallel lines of the 'passage', is a 'triangle' where the building crumbled as the wings hit it. Something much narrower than the plane would not have caused that.

Many people do not even know how to look at things...

"You don't have to prove the validity of any alternative scenario or theory in order to disprove an existing theory" ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 01:36 AM

"Sadly for the conspiracy theorists, the entry point is clearly shown, and on each side of the otherwise parallel lines of the 'passage', is a 'triangle' where the building crumbled as the wings hit it."

Give it another look. The plane hit at about a 30 degree angle. Shouldn't have been a triangle there at all.

Angle here. See line in grass. BTW, that pic is from 4 days prior to the 'crash'

You can suggest no one else knows how to look. But many of us do know how to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 01:38 AM

Make that angle 20/70 degrees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 01:48 AM

"You can suggest no one else knows how to look. But many of us do know how to see."

In your latest referred icture, I can see a track across the grass - if not caused by the plane - which has to be your assumption so that you can get that 'angle' 'caused by the plane' - if not, what caused it. A smaller object like a missle would not have carried that far - it would have far less intertia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 06:59 AM

"First of all, not all people who challenge the official version are conspiracists."

Nor did I say that they were. Try READING what I wrote.



"This is a non-sequitur, beardedbruce, as well as a straw man, and ad hominem argumentation."

If so, what does that make YOUR statement????

Or do you play by a different set of rules than you allow others???


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 07:12 AM

BB: I will not accept claims that violate basic laws of physics, or require supernatural powers.

CarolC: From where I'm watching, you have already done this.


Oh? Please let me know when.

I have as good credentials as those you seem to think can't be called kooks- MY degree is in Physics ( and Astronomy), and I have 29 years of experience in Space operations. I think I might know something about the basic laws of physics and mechanics. Before you make claims, PLEASE have examples to demonstrate what you claim.

Waiting for your examples.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: GUEST,sooo sweet
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 08:09 AM

who you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes???


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 08:22 AM

LH,

"What I see (not very distinctly) in those videos is what appears to be a smallish, white aircraft of some kind, but not a huge airliner, and it's going level to the ground, and damn fast. It looks more like a cruise missile to me, which is what some eyewitnesses there on that day have said they both heard and saw. Others said they saw a Boeing 757. Others said they saw a small white plane."

1. did you take into account the fact that the camera "footage " you are looking at was NOT taken at the same frame rate that you ( probably ) played it back at? Cameras used for monitoring take 1 frame every 1/2 to several seconds, NOT the 24-32 frames per second of a normal video system.

2. The only mention of a cruise missle I have seen presented was of an individual who stated the PLANE came in LIKE a cruise missle, NOT that it WAS a cruise missle. Can you provide a link to any other mention?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 08:28 AM

And what about the bodies found in the Pentegon that were identified as the people on the plane?

Were they misidentified ( DNA, dental records) ?

Did someone bring in the extra bodies ( since they could NOT have been on a cruise missile)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 09:41 AM

1. Why would they release footage that shows a missle hitting the Pentagon? If it "clearly" shows something other than a jet, how come this footage did not disappear?

2. If it was a missle, where was it launched from?

3. If someone strategically placed fake plane wreckage, why was this not captured on camera? There were people swarming the area within seconds of the hit - people on the highway and surrounding environs. How come this wasn't seen definitively?

4. What is the motivation for attacking the Pentagon? In all of Washington, there were numerous other targets that would have made a larger impact. Why not destroy the White House or the Capitol? Surely a missle leveling the White House would have had people signing up for military service within the hour.

5. Why are there so many witnesses who saw a plane hit the Pentagon and literally thousands of people who saw the planes hit the WTC? Did David Blaine or the Mindfucker pull one over on us?

Camera angles and video footage can be misleading - as the various shots of the second plane hitting the WTC shows. Simply being at another angle hid the plane from view on one shot. None of us are experts, although we all like to play Sherlock Holmes and read what we want into blurry .jpg's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 10:24 AM

Peace:    the picture you posted shows a single track of burned grass directed at the Pentagon.

Note that the "plane" had to have gone over the elevated highway and instantly drop 50 feet to burn the grass 30 feet away from the highway.

I do not have an explaination for this peculiar SINGULAR trail the "plane" made on the grass in front of the Pentagon.
It just raises more questions, if you are a questioning kind of person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 10:25 AM

this is the one you posted

http://members.shaw.ca/freedomsix/pics/Pentagon_9_7_01.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 10:26 AM

was the track made by the fuselage, one engine only or by people walking up to see the Pentagon...I don't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 11:02 AM

The track appears to have been made by a Sears Craftsman mulching mower with the blade set too low. Looks like my front lawn.

How do we know when that picture was taken - because a website tells us so?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 11:22 AM

Peace,

"Peace - PM
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:52 PM

My issue with the video is that the object entering from the right at 24 or 25 seconds into the video doesn't at all look big enough to be a 757."

Have you ever been to the Pentagon? What are you using to judge the scale of the plane?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 11:54 AM

The thing is, BB, I don't know who (on the public record) is lying and who isn't...nor does anyone else here.

When governments cover something up, a lot of lies are told. False witnesses are provided. Lying (and even probably some sincerely honest) "experts" are provided to explain and support the lies. False data is quoted as gospel. A great deal of effort is made in the media to support the lies.

So it all depends on whether there has been a coverup or not. If there has been (for some reason...and there could be a number of reasons), then we cannot necessarily trust anything from the official record, except (hopefully) photos taken on the day by the press and by satellite.

Any other information on the public record may be falsified or orchestrated to mislead.

All I can go on as irrefutable is what I see in the photos and videos. I don't see what looks like a 757. I see what looks like a much smaller flying vehicle of some kind, flying dead level...possibly a cruise missile...possibly a small, white aircraft. I see damage on the building that does not suggest a hit by a 757. I see a lawn that does not look like it was hit by a 757.

That raises a lot of questions.

As far as the conflicting testimony of various eyewitnesses...it simply raises more questions, because one has no way of knowing:

1. who is telling the truth
2. who was correctly interpreting what they saw

False eyewitnesses can be and ARE provided by governments who wish to cover up something. Governments are not stupid. If they have a vital need to cover up something and create a false cover story about a major incident they will go to tremendous effort and enlist the aid of a great many highly professional people in creating that story, and providing voluminous amounts of false evidence. This is the sort of thing that organizations like the CIA and military intelligence people are trained to do...when necessary.

They have enormous resources. We don't. Don't forget that.

The only question is...are they covering up? If so, then expect an avalanche of official disinformation in the media, and expect to be ridiculed for ever questioning it. Furthermore, expect to have your career terminated or at least very badly damaged if you are in a government job or an important media job. That's always a good way of shutting up mainstream dissent. Few people can afford to lose their careers.

As for dissent by a few ordinary people who aren't mainstream (in the government or the media)? Well, it hardly matters, does it?

Until martial law is declared.

Then...I guess we ordinary people better learn to keep our mouths shut, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 11:58 AM

bearded bruce, have you seen the bodies of passengers inside the Pentagon? Do you know thousands of people who claim they saw an airplane go into the Pentagon? Did you see the attack?

I have seen the burn victims of Pentagon workers and the grief stricken families of the dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore - 9/11 could be inside job
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:01 PM

"When governments cover something up, a lot of lies are told. False witnesses are provided. Lying (and even probably some sincerely honest) "experts" are provided to explain and support the lies. False data is quoted as gospel. A great deal of effort is made in the media to support the lies."

Don't forget that ANY group with a mission can do the same thing. It does not have to be a government that lies - any group with an agenda can produce the same "experts" and tell their own "lies".

Our distrust of government should not cloud our views that there are other groups that would love to use this to their advantage. While people often say that the government used 9/11 to push their war, it should also be stated that anti-government groups are using 9/11 to push their views as well.   

People are gullible. Propaganda works both ways.


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