Songs related to The Mabinogion

Subject: The Mabinogion
From: Shula
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 06:18 PM

Dear Mudcatters of the Gaelic persuasion,

If anyone is familiar with "The Mabinogion" (a collection of mediæval Welsh romances translated by Lady Charlotte Guest in the mid-nineteenth century), could you tell me a bit about it and, for a start, where to look for it? I just stumbled on a reference, and it sounded intriguing. Wondered, in particular, if any of its stories have been , or could be, rendered in song.

Thanks,

Shula

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Bruce O.
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 06:43 PM

Since they are in Welsh they don't come out in meter or rhyme in English. There are poems and a song in 'The Tale of Gwyn Bach/Taliesin' which some editors put in the Mabinogion and some don't.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Penny
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 07:15 PM

I have a version translated by Gwyn Jones and Thomas Jones, published in Everyman's Library by J.M. Dent & Sons Ltd, and reprinted in 1966. They were published in the USA by E.P Dutton & Co. Inc, NY

I think I have seen editions more recently, probably in one of the classics collections like Penguin. Also, four of the stories were written as novels by Evangeline Walton, under various titles.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Bruce O.
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 08:33 PM

I have the Everyman and Penguin, and another by, I think, Patrick Ford, and that's where I have the Taleisin (spelling?)

Peredur of York appears in the Mabinogion, but his adventures are given elsewhere. As Percival he succeeded in the quest of the grail, and Wagner's opera, 'Parsifal' is about him.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Susan of DT
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 09:33 PM

The Evangeline Walton books are:
Prince of Annwn
Children of Llyr
Song of Rhiannon
Island of the Mighty
from Del Ray Ballentine paperbacks in the 1970s. I thought they were wonderful. They are a whole cycle of Welsh legends involving Pwyll, Llyr, Bran, Manawyddan, Rhiannon, Pryderi, Math, Gwydion, Dylan, Branwen, etc. I am not familiar with traditional songs about these characters.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Bruce O.
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 10:10 PM

There aren't any traditional songs that I know of about King Arthur, either, and the Welsh tales are set about the same date, c 500 C.E.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Shula
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 04:03 AM

Dear all,

Thanks SO much. Found that paperback re-issues of both the Guest and Jones translations are readily available. (However, I understand that older editions of the Guest version include her extensive notes on Welsh mythology, which were unfortunately omitted from current printings. Since I am abysmally ignorant of this background material, I hope to locate a copy that has it.)

What strikes me is that, as an English major, I had so little exposure to pre-twentieth century works from non-English sources in the British Isles. Burns, yes, but little else. Why is this the case, I wonder? It can't be because translation is required, since Beowulf and The Canterbury Tales etc., are presented in translation. It can't be a lack of relevance: Greek, Roman and Norse mythology (as well as the Bible) are routinely given plenty of "air-time" in English classes. Why not works closer to home? Has there been a systematic dis-inclusion of works from Ireland, Scotland and Wales in English curricula, I wonder?

I asked about songs because I hoped to find a starting point from something familiar, and because, from the small mention that led to my questions, it seemed that these stories would naturally lend themselves to minstrelsy. Sorry to learn it's not so.

Bruce, thanks for the help, especially the mention of the song in the disputed story. I'd have settled for the Guest until I read that this piece is not included in that version. Oh, and I wouldn't have expected to find the original Welsh words, or their translations, simply set to music, but rather, other versions of the same stories in verse or song. Most useful of all, though, is knowing that Peredur, Percival, and Parsifal are one and the same. Knowing something of the latter two gives me that "starting point" I was seeking.

Penny, thanks for the reference to the more recent translation and the mention of the Walton novels.

Susan, thank you for the book titles and the reccommendation.

Thanks to all three of you for giving me a head start on a "new" area of interest. I haven't had such a happy prospect since Jerry Friedman made an oblique reference to Dorothy L. Sayers "Gaudy Night" in the "Duets" thread and I ended up reading everything the lady ever wrote.

Musing: would it be a terrible breach of literary etiquette, do you suppose, to make a song from material so far in the past which has not found a tune afore now? Probably. De rien.

Most appreciatively,

Shula

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Penny
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 07:19 AM

Why on earth would it be wrong? People keep writing new versions of stories, look at the vast range of Arthurian material currently in print, so why not songs, if they come to you? There isn't any copyright on the high and far-off past.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Philippa
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 07:59 AM

Bruce O: there is, unusually, a Scottish Gaelic Arthurian ballad. I think it was collected in S Uist and there was a small book published about the song just a few years ago. "Am Bron Binn" (song and book title)Author (of book) Gowans, Linda
Because I've heard this song, I did an internet search which reveals that there was an article on the song in "The Living Tradition" issue no. 4 and that it is listed, along with other songs which are likely to be of interest at Arthurian musical theatre

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 08:03 AM

The thing about English ancient literature is that it wasn't written in Latin or greek and the saxon heritage is very much what the historians want you to read. Many of the personages that turn up in the Mabinogion, also turn up in the irish celtic cycle, such as the red branch and the stories of cuchulain and the fenians. But the welsh story cycles (or british really) have a much more lilting tone. Though the story of the Children of Llyr always brings tears to my eyes. It's about damn time British schools and universities reclaimed the celtic..gaelic..british part of their heritage.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 10:09 AM

I can't speak for Gaelic, but FYI it was actually illegal to speak Welsh until 1909. Children caught speaking in Welsh in the playground were made to wear a sign around their neck reading 'Welsh Not'.
I always assumed that, since Welsh has contributed only very little to modern English, that academics studying English wouldn't be very interested. However, academics studying Celtic languages may be...

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 10:25 AM

The language may have been suppressed but the stories certainly weren't most of the Arthurian stories are all based on celtic legends, and The Owl Service by Alan Garner should be required reading at all British schools. Not to mention the Dark is Rising Sequence by Susan Cooper.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 10:50 AM

I'm glad you remembered the Owl Service Al, it's a masterpiece of modern literature. Interestingly enough, it was required reading on my O-level syllabus...

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Bruce O.
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 11:16 AM

Thanks Philippa. I haven't gotten your link to go through yet. The Scots have many places named from connections to King Arthur, but nothing in their early literature about him that I know of (not that real English history tells us much about Arthur). Have you seen the late Arthurian romance 'Fergus of Galloway'? (Seemingly written in Scotland by a Frenchman in service there.)

I don't have any of the books by Rachel Bromwich on the old Welsh literature (tales and Triads), and I haven't been able to find them on the used book websites.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 11:26 AM

The Owl Service had been taken off the required reading list when I was doing O Levels, though I had already seen the BBC series, which was fantastic and I had read it myself before ( along with the Weirdstone of Brisingamen, Elidor and The Moon of Gomrath. The biggest thrill I've ever had in my life was one time when I was coming back from the Lake District with a friend and she detoured to go look at Alderly Edge in Cheshire, I saw the Svart Hole and the Door to Merlin's cave...but I couldn't get it to open.). For those of you who may wish to know what The Owl Service is and why it is important to Mabinogian tales is it is a retelling of the Dierdre(?) tale from the Mab. and an eerie china dinner service with an owl motif. Dierdre was the wife of Brân, who was made from flowers and grasses. She was unfaithful to Brân and was turned into an owl ( a real heavy duty penance to a celt) for her transgression. I probably have the names all mixed up but it sounds authentic doesn't it? :o)

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 11:45 AM

The Dark is Rising series is great, Alistair, but it takes liberties. Susan Cooper lives in the US now (Connecticut) and does a lot of writing for the Revels here. Takes liberties all the time- but usually churns out great material and keeps the legends alive for some who otherwise might only know the Disney version!

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 11:51 AM

There were 4 pillars that supported me through my childhood (and still do to be quite honest) and they were, in no particular order The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, the Narnia books, Alan Garner's books and Susan Cooper. So what if they took liberties( as I found out later) they managed to transport me somewhere where I longed to go. Especially the Dark is Rising book because it was near where I lived in the Chilterns. Sigh...oh for callow youth and the joys of new discovery.

ps:Allison...NOI about the "so what" :o)

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Penny
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 12:24 PM

Am I being too clever? The lady in the tale was Blodeuwedd, or flower-face, the husband Llew, and the other man Gronw Pebyr. What I really admired about the book was the way that Garner made the story not so centred on Llew, so that the feelings of Blodeuwedd were considered, whereas in the myth, she is made for Llew, has no purpose aside from Llew, and her betrayal is as if a piece of property stole itself.

As to taking liberties, I always feel that the original is still there, and cannot be changed by new work on the theme, which, if it is no good, will wither and be lost. (I'm not so hopeful about Disneyfication of new works.) There's something in Tolkein about the stew of fairy tales, from which each person takes a different mixture. Different readers, and writers, have different visions of the old tales, and when they were told as oral works, different emphases would have arisen in different places with different audiences. So long as it is clear that that is what is being done, and that the writer doesn't intend the work to become the definitive version, so long as the reader can come from that version to the source, what is wrong with it?

On the other hand, I have a gut feeling that there are boundaries defining what ought and ought not to be done. For instance, if someone claims to be retelling "Homer's Odyssey" they should not change the character of Odysseus to fit that of Virgil's Ulysses, or change the end so that Odysseus never gets home. Or is killed by the suitors, or rejected by his wife. If they are telling the story without attribution to Homer, then there is a little more freedom, because there is ancient ground for that, and anyway, the guy is dead. By and large, I feel that the spirit of something should be observed, especially as that is what made the story perpetuate itself in the first place.

Did anyone see the TV film of "Merlin" over Easter? Morgan le Fay should sue!

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Bruce O.
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 12:51 PM

There's no law or rules limiting what can be done to old tales, let's just not get the new versions mixed up with the old ones.

Morgan le Fay is an interesting subject, and she seems to have been a rather late invention, not in the Welsh tales at all, but first in French ones. It's been suggested that she's a reincarnation of the Irish witch Morrigan in 'the Tain', but how did the French find her?

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 01:34 PM

I didn't mean to give the impression that it was wrong to take liberties (NOT, "no offense taken" Alistair!)- those same books and legends made my youth bearable! I am fascinated with how the stories have traveled and changed over the ages, first by word of mouth and then as interpreted by various cultures. Aren't there figures in Eastern legend that are very closely related to Arthur, for instance? Anyway, I'm grateful for Cooper and Tolkein and all those who have the knowledge and the imagination to take these legends and keep them alive!
On a more musical note, Anne Lister is one who takes all kinds of legends and myths and takes all kinds of liberties- but oh, so beautifully! I'm working on "Icarus" right now and maybe it ain't folk music, but I'm one folk who wants to share it!

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 01:49 PM

Allison: I know what you meant that's why I put the disclaimer in to show you that I knew what you meant :o).

And Penny: You are completely right I couldn't remember the names at the time and I have recently been reading a nice little book called Myths and Legends of the Celts by Charles Somebody or other ( see I am terrible with names) and through in the ones that I remembered....knowing that you would correct me :o) . And Icarus is a folk song...just because it's new don't make not-folk. I just love Anne's stuff and used to book her regularly at the club.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Penny
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 02:11 PM

I've also a children's book by Gwyn Jones, "Welsh Legends and Fairy Tales" (Puffin), which deals with the Mabinogion stories among others, and a book by Roger Sherman Loomis, "Celtic Myth and Arthurian Romance" (Constable), which discusses - (why I am tempted to say?) - the mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's.

I was taught Greek stories in literature at school, but found Celtic tales as rivetting, when I found them. It is odd that we English dumped ours. Weren't they any good? Mind you, a recent History Today identified the landscape described in Beowulf (not that it is attributed to) as the Isle of Sheppey. Quite convincing, but not quite Glastonbury.

And Morgan may be late, but she is interesting, whereas the character in this recent production is an empty headed little scatterbrain with big hair.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 02:13 PM

Instead of the Full blown representaton of Morrigu that Morgan actually depicts ( the celtic goddess of the underworld)

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Penny
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 02:23 PM

Absolutely. There is a sort of version of her in this opus, under the name of Mab, who I thought was one of those fairies Puck was so scathing of, of the teeny weeny variety, even though she has a powerful Celtic precursor, doesn't she?

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 02:29 PM

Mab or Maeve...she was one of the Prominant Tuatha de Danaan, but I can't remember what she was the goddess of. I have no wish to see this programme...what was it?

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Penny
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 02:36 PM

It went by the name of "Merlin" and was made by the people who did a creditable "Gulliver" the other year. Full of special effects, and unlike Gulliver, without a good literary source. Some good actors, (and actresses, though they were easily confused). Pete M might be able to identify the gates of faerie as High Rocks, or Eridge. I can always tell a crummy story (I was watching with soemone else) when I start doing the geology.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Penny
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 02:49 PM

To be absolutely fair, if you wanted a way to pass the time, it did have a nice line in anachronisms (deliberate, that is). In one case, aged Merlin states that "Times arrow only flies in one direction" which has a lot of interesting cross references in and out of Arthurian literature, immediately followed by a Puck character (under another name) appearing in a tricorn hat left over from Gulliver, and blowing a bosun's whistle. And then there was Rutger Hauer's Vortigern's dealings with his architects. But closeness to sources was not its strong point.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 03:04 PM

Unfortunately, when there making network shows true so source material goes to pot. Unless it's the BBC. I still remember Their Borrowers, Children of Green Knowe, Tom's Midnight Garden ( the 70's version not the crap 80's one), Tales of Narnia, Anything by Henry Treece, I always wanted them to take a crack at The Dark is Rising Sequence.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Penny
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 03:44 PM

I agree with you there, on the Dark is Rising. I used to haunt the bookshops when the new volume was due. The technical facilities are now in place, too. I had a disappointment though, with their recent Eagle of the Ninth on radio. Only on one point, though. I thought of this with the recent query about Kipling's Roman soldiers' song. Rosemary Sutcliffe wrote one, too, "The girl I left at Clusium", and in the first, Children's Hour, version, there was a tune which I can still remember, and whistle. This time, I wanted to hear what they had done with it. My impression was that it was very vaguely based on the original tune, but without being tuneful. I couldn't imagine anyone singing it, or marching to it, or whistling it.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 03:49 PM

Her song was in the TV series of the Eagle of the Ninth (BBC again).

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Penny
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 03:56 PM

Remember that, too. Aah, the days of teatime drama. Funny, though, I can't remember what they did with the song there.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 04:02 PM

Penny can you get into the chat room?

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Penny
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 04:33 PM

Unfortunately, no. This being a school machine has a bias against such places. (Except the OU, where there isn't anyone, anyway.) I noticed how this was descending into a personal conversation unrelated to the subject of the thread. Except that using verses attempting to represent what might have been sung in various historical periods must just be construed as related to the existence or not of songs based on genuine ancient literature. (I really enjoy trying to find links between things which aren't obviously, or even really, connected.)

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Susan of DT
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 09:21 PM

Bruce - Try Boy and the Mantle Child #29 and The Marriage of Sir Gawaine Child #31 for Arthurian traditional songs.

There are MANY modern Arthurian stories set in Celtic times, usually around 500 AD. Some of my favorites are:
Marian Zimmer Bradley, Mists of Avalon
Rosemary Sutcliff, Sword at Sunset
Mary Stewart's set.
I have LOTS of books on Arthur, fiction and otherwise. There are also a number of Arthurian websites.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Shula
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 09:52 PM

Dear folks,

As a treat for all who answered my question so extensively, please feast your eyes on the first picture on this site, and a smaller one further down the page, http://www.lightwizard.com/Camelot/. (It is worth the long wait for the graphic to load.) When I have earned my wand and wings, I'll conjure it up directly!

Thanks again,

Shula

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Bruce O.
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 10:00 PM

Bronson found no traditional tunes for Child #29, But has one (only) for a derivative version of Child #31, "The Half-Hitch", but there's no Gawain (Gwalchmei in Mabinogion) or Dame Ragnal (of the tale version) in this.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 12:42 AM

I seem to recall Joe Campbell doing lectures (on videos I saw) which got into the Mabinogion. He did extensive work with aspects of the grail legends and the Arthurian legends in general. And he surely had the hutzpah to make it accessable to modern folk.

Just thinking of him now reminds me of a time I had the pleasure of having dinner with Joe Campbell at George and Gerry Armstrong's home in Wilmette, IL. At the time I had little knowledge of his work with mythology. All I did know was that Mr. Joe had been a part of the John Steinbeck/Ed Ricketts crowd in Monterrey, California---a grand band of folks who, in their own literary way, probably were an early version of Hunter S. Thompson and the Gonzo guys & gals. I spent the entire meal trying to find out about those old days in California when __Canery Row__ was written by John Steinbeck. Joe Campbell didn't want to talk about that era AT ALL. Later, (much later), after Joseph Campbell's death, I found out by reading a biography of Steinbeck ("The True Adventures Of John Steinbeck--Writer" by Jackson Benton) that Joseph Campbell had had an affair with Steinbeck's wife, Carol, at that time and that had probably led to the Steinbeck's divorce. (Live & learn!)No wonder the era was taboo in Campbell's memories.

But it all made me have an even loftier pedastal on which to place Joseph Campbell since I am now able to see him in very human terms. He aint no god; he's just like us! Nice to know.

Also, Joe Campbell was a trmendous influence on Steinbeck's writing. John tried (and failed in my opinion) to write the Arthurian legends. And many of his books follow those mythological patterns Campbell introduced him to during long talks drinking wine by the ocean at Doc'S (Ed Ricketts') marine biology lab on Canery Row in Monterrey.

One other point: I've always wondered if Woody Guthrie had consciously written "East Texas Red" after reading "Sir Gawain And The Green Night"! Both works involve a meeting on the road of folks who abuse and insult each other to the extent that a pact is made to meet back at the same place in a YEAR where revenge might/would be exacted. Shula, it might be a bit askew of your own grail/song quest here, but not necessarily. Again, Shula, welcome back!!!!!!!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 04:04 AM

Teatime Drama!! Al, Penny et al. Please confirm my sanity, or otherwise.
BBC had one of these called 'The Moon Stallion'. Blind girl sent on holiday to Uffington. Young ostler called Tom. An old man who tells the future by reading the bones of animals. Nighttime rendezvous with white horses on Dragon Hill.
Ring any bells? Should I publish instead?

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Penny
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 04:15 AM

Dai, that one came into my mind, too. It often does, as I drive to my Dad's place through the area. I've been on the lookout for a book of it, but never have found one.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 04:54 AM

At last! My wife, friends, children etc. all snigger behind my back when I go all misty-eyed and emotional about this one. I'm going to hassle the beeb, and see what they want to tell me. That series was responsible for a lot of my psychological makeup, being on when I was about nine or ten.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Shula
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 05:04 AM

Deah Aw-ut [Art],

Lord love ya, son! Rec'nin' by th' cump'ny yew dun kep', Ah shorly bes' be haulin' long sum WICKET par'ful mean cusses, ef'n Ah specks tuh cotch YEW up awn eny ol' road heah-bouts, bime-bye -- doncha s'pose? ... 'Kine-uh nay-buh-ly greetin's 'at un thar, enyhoo? ... DA-yumm, Aw-ut!

Re-gawds,

Shula

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: AlistairUK
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 05:32 AM

Dai: That was the one with the romany looking character who could talk to horses yeah I loved it as well.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Apr 99 - 01:16 AM

I've put a geneology of King Arthur derived solely from Welsh sources on my website. Please tell me if you see any errors, or can supply the missing names, A, B, C, D or whether x or y is correct for Arthur's sister or half-sister. Or, can you see how Gwalchmai (Gawain) can be both Arthur's nephew and cousin in any other way than the one I have there? www.erols.com/olsonw goes to homepage with click-on, or add /MABINOGN.JPG to go directly. It's about 1/4 megabytes, so will take about a minute to down-load the whole.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Apr 99 - 01:36 AM

Sorry, the parent file was 1/4 megabyte, but the JPG is only 67Kbytes.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Apr 99 - 12:26 PM

Note that Fercos son of Poch in 'Culhwch and Olwen' is Fergus son of Ro/ech in the Irish tale of Deirdre.

Subject: RE: Songs related to The Mabinogion
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Apr 99 - 01:51 PM

Shula,

Tanks I tink--but I'm not sure! Never could read dialect easy--except some dialectics.**smile**

Best,

"Ot Team"