young folk tradition undermining folk

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Captain Colin.
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:54 AM

Diane- get real!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:46 AM

Captain Colin's heart is failing to bleed because he clearly has no clue what it's like out there. The entire point is that there isn't time for a McJob because a musician needs to be devoting time offstage to rehearsal, research, learning and arranging. But it sometimes just has to be done in order to cover the nitty-gritty of survival.

In the example I gave above of accepting a festival booking (at almost two day's driving distance) to recoup losses on the previous year's tour, I omitted to mention that the minimum three extra gigs requested to make the tour viable just did not materialise. And yet one of the venues decided to publicise the artist's alleged 'unreliability' despite the fact that they hadn't bothered to return the contract. Not only is this lack of consideration financially disastrous, it also does sometimes irreparable damage to an artist's reputation.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:33 AM

yeh mugs game...personally I'd knock off the degree course and get a karaoke machine, buy a Bernard Manning jokebook and go into showbusiness....if you're that way inclined.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM

"non-return of contracts,"

Perhaps not every club is up to par in administrative matters and if the artist(s) is out on tour he/she/they may not receive the contract in time anyway.

"venues suddenly collapsing or disappearing"

Yes that does happen from time to time

"organizers absconding with the advance sales money"

I hope that is a rare event - it has certainly never happened anywhere that I have had any dealings with.

But yes making a living out of our music is far from easy.

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Captain Colin.
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:29 AM

Well, if there's time for a daytime McJob that bears out my point that 3 gigs a week is part-time employment! My tough old heart is somehow failing to bleed.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:18 AM

Meant to type "John Kirkpatrick WROTE . . . "

Indeed DG does not earn a massive amount and he's on the go constantly (a never-ending tour that really doesn't) and reckons to do at least 3 gigs a week. This, of course, involves taking the chance that gigs may well slip by the wayside because of non-return of contracts, venues suddently collapsing or disappearing, organisers absconding with the advance sales money . . . that sort of thing.

A recent European festival booking, accepted in an attempt to recoup on a financially disastrous 'tour' the previous year during which a selection of the above occurred, ended with yet another shortfall.

Yet the performer has to maintain a home which is rarely seen, vehicle, PA and instruments out of meagre fees which are, as likely as not, not even forthcoming.

What do you do in the daytime indeed. As likely as not, a McJob to meet the next bill.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Captain Colin
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM

ps- I'm not, and never have been, an engineer!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Captain Colin.
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:05 AM

Grab's calculations were based on 3 gigs a week. Travelling times will obviously vary and will average out at far less than 10 hours per gig. Many people expend long hours in travelling to work, but don't class it as hours worked. A musician doing 3 gigs as week to fairly small audiences is being equated to a trained engineer working full time (and probably under stress and carrying a lot of responsibilty too)- it's just not a balanced comparison, sorry!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Grimmy
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:04 AM

part-time work

Dick Gaughan used to say he was a long-distance driver who sang during his breaks.

He also once revealed how much he earned during a typical year - it was not a lot, believe me.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:49 AM

part-time work

PART-TIME work?
John Kirkpatrick write a song about that after he kept being asked what he did in the daytime.

One of the top touring bands doing 3 to 4 gigs a week fairly constantly, involving up to 10 hours driving there and back told me that when fuel, food, accommodation, strings and stuff was accounted for, they were each on slightly above the national minimum wage.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Captain Colin.
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM

Grab- sounds pretty good to me for part-time work!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: EuGene
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:19 AM

Say, Sparticus, isn't "ruffling a few feathers" a prime component of the folk music scene . . . note that I said scene, not tradition, as the only tradition that , historically, I have ever seen is the free form, lack of tradition, nature of folk music. That's what sets folk music off from most other musical styles -- folk is painted with the broadest brush of all genres. Eu

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Grab
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:14 AM

Re the money, it depends on what's a living wage for the people involved.

Sure, £1200 is a lot of money. But let's say for the sake of argument that the group had five people in it - now we're talking £240 per person. Being realistic, they're likely to be averaging 3 gigs a week at best. That equates to £37K a year, out of which they also have to find petrol money, hire someone to run sound and lighting, and provide and maintain their own instruments, PA and lighting rig (or hire them). If they're doing much better than £30K after all that, I'd be surprised. Now that's a decent wage, but it's not exactly exceptional as far as skilled, trained work goes - compare it to what someone with a degree in engineering could get, say, and it's not so hot. It'll pay your pension and let you get a mortgage on a cheapish house outside of the southeast (assuming your partner works too), but it'll damn sure not put you in a mansion with hot and cold running groupies. :-/

Now do the same sums for £400 for 3 people. £130 a gig per person, 3 gigs per week per year, equals £20K a year. Subtract petrol and other expenses, and they won't be on more than £15K. That's OK for young people living in a bedsit or a room in a shared house, but it wouldn't pay anyone's mortgage or leave anything for savings.

Graham.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:00 AM

"What, you mean they don't have an opinion to share?"

I'm sure they would - if they were even aware of the discussion. For the bright young things of folk, Mudcat is hardly in the vanguard of progressive thought, so they largely ignore its existence.

Fair play to them.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 08:44 AM

Great debate! I go with George & Mike from Northumberland - allow the kids their mistakes, be entertained, as Old Folks always have been, by their mistakes and their pretentiousness*. While you're doing that, just guide them along.
There's a lot of crusty old opinion in this thread - understandable from those of us who know The Proper Way to Folk Sing maybe - but you have to take notice of the way music and media are changing, really you do.
In nature, things either evolve and grow or we only know them from ancient fossils. If you want something of "your" music to live on, you have to accept that.

*"leave home now while you still know EVERYthing"

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 08:12 AM

Life has taught me that in every group of people there is going to be at least one self-opinionated, "I'm god's gift" gobshite and the students at Newcastle are no exception. The majority, however, are just like students anywhere with the exception that they are all extremely gifted in their chosen field. If the course can harness that talent, encourage it and point it in the right direction then surely it has succeeded in helping to perpetuate the tradition and given these young people a fighting chance to survive the pitfalls of the world in which they have chosen to make their living. As for them "undermining the folk tradition," surely common sense would tell you that they're not going to set out to destroy the thing that they love. My experience of the "young folk tradition" has been very positive and it's obvious that they are beginning to ruffle a few feathers amongst those who perhaps perceive some sort of threat. Good luck to them all,I say, it's a hard road they've chosen and some encouragement wouldn't go amiss to help them on their way.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 07:32 AM

'The younger generation have better things to do than sit around navel-gazing: they're too busy dancing. Performing. Going to festivals. Playing in sessions. Having a life.'

And we are to entrust our wonderful tradition to this vacuous gang of hedonists......I think not! As Jean-Paul Sartre said, all art is born out of suffering.

Mind you, we warned him about listening to the Mike Harding Show.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 07:14 AM

I often advise people - almost invariably to no avail - to read threads before diving in.

This one was started by an 18 year-old. So yes at least one of them has an opinion and good for them.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 07:07 AM

What, you mean they don't have an opinion to share?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 06:55 AM

Ruth, you are not middle-aged. No matter how generous you are. While ever you can get a yearn for a cow-man - albeit unfulfilled you are fine.

I am middle-aged. I have never had a yearn for a cow-man.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 06:06 AM

You really think that a bunch of middle-aged (and I'm being generous here) folkies squabbling amongst themselves about things like the future of folk clubs is having "their finger on the pulse"?

The younger generation have better things to do than sit around navel-gazing: they're too busy dancing. Performing. Going to festivals. Playing in sessions. Having a life.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 05:58 AM

I would have thought that if the students on the degree course had their fingers on the pulse of Folk and Traditional music (such as it is), some of them might have contributed to this thread by now.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:58 PM

Thanks Diane. It's worth considering...

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:25 PM

Points of information:

(1) The B Mus course is four years.
(2) OK, one and a half Witches as one had to give up half way through.
(3) (For George): yes you get an HND if you get to intermediate then leave.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

Just one person's opinion, but in the teeth of the established opinion here our club is still thriving. I did see Kate Rusby there more than once (a few years ago admittedly) and she seemed to have a great love for the songs she was singing. Well, as much as you'd expect given that she spent her childhood building sandcastles on Fleetwood beach whilst her father ran the sound desk, and sang in the Young Performers there (as indeed did Tim Van Eyken - though not sandcastles, as far as I know). I don't know how many graduates of Newcastle we've had: a few I suspect including the Witches more than once. But half? Only one admitted to me doing the degree, and she came up through the Skipton club worshipping at the feet of Maggie Boyle (as should we all). We've just had Uiscedwr, with one graduate (and another attendee) of the Northern Music College. It didn't seem to have hurt their enthusiasm for the music. If some performers ask too much, we don't see them (no, I've no idea what the going rate is). Plenty more to fit in.

If this seems a bit wandering, it just seemed to me that opinions are being expressed as if they were proven facts rather than suppositions, and a bit of contrary evidence was needed. I don't understand how three years honing your craft, and learning a bit in the process (well, being taught a bit anyway) can do anything but good. If some can convert that into a negative, it seems to say more about their outlook on life in general than about the value of the course. So one of students is a prat, it is still better that he be a competent musician than an incompetent one.

I don't care that performer X is doing wonders whilst steering clear of traditional outlets: good luck to him. There was a chasm between the traditional folkies and the protest songwriters when I was but a lad. Then there was the folk "entertainers", who used the clubs as a route into professional comedy (or not). There have always been those who flirted with popular music as a means of refreshing the roots/waking up the fuddy-duddies/doing their own thing, man. Chose your own interpretation, but folk music has always been a broad church. There is much variety around now, but it doesn't mean The End Of The Known World.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:33 PM

yes I admit it - I'm an envious mass and I SCORN all you successful buggers.

Consider yourself scorned....!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 03:01 PM

Cyrano: Give me enemies!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: breezy
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 02:58 PM

Did I miss the word 'entertainment' somewhere?

What the hell, it keeps em off the streets and there arnt enough jobs around so 'keep em in school for longer' has long been our govt's credo

It's contemporary creativity with appeal to intellect through music with originalty that I am looking for.

Has Jez Lowe rec'd his honorary degree yet? Bogle and a few others.

In the end if one cannot communicate with an audience then it would only be an academic exercise

And , Well Done Jim C Lad for tackling a George Papavgeris song, hope its working, great source singer, in many ways.

Has Vin G got one

Does Martyn W -R's summer school in France qualify for any credits, if not . why not?

Folk music and song should be a pleasurable social pastime

I say Di E, where can I read the syllabub seeing as i cant be bothered to trawl


next St Albans song gig worth bothering about will be on Sunday 15th Julay - its the way they talk- at the Rose and Crown , - though word is that Fleggy will be stepping -into the breach - on the 2nd sunday,

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 01:17 PM

Oh, to be scorned and envied... I'd gladly give away 30 years of my age for such a thing. I don't quite agree, UB; I think there is a minority that is scornful and envious, but they are very vocal, that's all.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Uncle Boko
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 12:31 PM

The trouble is that in the UK, success is scorned by envious masses.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 12:04 PM

We seem to fear/envy the success of others in folk circles. We want folk music to be more popular and yet when some group manages to bring them to the forefront, we cringe at the very mention of their names.
Simple fact; No act, no matter how good or bad & no publicity, no matter how good or bad is going to do anything but help me find gigs.

How many times have we played to rows of envious Folkies at folk clubs knowing that many of them would like nothing more than to see you die on the spot so that they could take your place.

So, formal training for folk musicians? No. I don't think it's of any real value but what the heck. Somebody came up with it and I take that as a positive move on our behalf.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:52 AM

if you insist..100

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM

Go on then .... 99

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:36 AM

The young folk tradition is not the main reason that folk is in decline

and

It seems to me that offering a degree course is a very good way to perpetuate something which has been struggling to survive over the last twenty years.

Let me try and do this gently. There is no evidence that folk music (however widely or narrowly you care to define it) is in decline and if you feel it is (or has been) I would like to know on what you base your statement.

There is tons more live folk music now than there ever was. (I understand Shrewsbury will have a 2,500 seater marquee this year for the main stage and a 1,000 seater for the second stage). Some decline......

Most major towns and many smaller ones host sessions - something that was rare until the late sixties/early seventies with the exception of the Irish community. There were few festivals and they tended to be dance-orientated.

There are now dozens of festivals some with very big attendances. Even into the early seventies there were few instrumentalists. In the past few weeks I have been privileged to listen to a dozen astonishingly talented young fiddlers, flute players, accordion players, watch dancers, and listen to singers most of whom were around 20/25 years of age. And some are are graduates of the Newcastle course one is on the course one is going on the course and others haven't and wont.

Incidentally like most university courses there are a number of mature students on the course - it isn't all young people.

If you want to make a living as a folk musician the last thing you want to do is be anywhere near the folk music community.

There is no way to address this gently. Just about as useless a piece of advice as I have ever seen.

And if you want to hear how the folk scene is thriving in Scotland go and listen to all the wonderful music that Archie Fisher played on last week's Travelling Folk via the BBC's listen again. Everything the Mike Harding Show could be and isn't.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Patrick_Costello
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 08:11 AM

If you want to make a living as a folk musician the last thing you want to do is be anywhere near the folk music community.

Ignore what everybody else is doing. Focus on developing your skill, understanding your craft and find a way to inject what you do into your community.

A folk musician is, like it or not, a musician of the people. Our "job" has nothing to do with being on stage or self-promotion. Folk music is personal. It's face to face. It's in living rooms and front porches. Our success is not measured in how many records we sell or any of the other nonsense non-musicians think of in terms of attributes of success. No, our success is measured in how we live and in the lives we touch.

In my case, I ended up making a pretty good living without performing. I gave away my music and, because of the roundabout way folk music works, everything I gave away ended up making me money.

-Patrick

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:12 AM

Very glad to hear you are swapping singers in Newcasle. Trouble is I could not get there and back in one evening from Dorset.

As for a university degree in subject of folk and the tradition, I would love to do it as (quote) 'a boring old fart' Why should the young ones get all the fun (and knowledge)
Ewan MacCall invented nothing. Just the right man in the right place at the right time. The real heros are people like the Copper family and Sam Larner et al

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:45 AM

i think you will find that folk clubs do that already Warwick -swapping etc-where geographically practical. Some folks just happen to go to more than one folk club as well. We have posters in the Union Bar at the local uni and we are very lucky-and priveleged to have many visitors to our club where regulars will step aside to hear something different. I do not think there is an issue, but then I do not think clubs are in decline either. I have seen the curriculum for the degree at Newcastle -most excellent for the art of perpetuating the music but Marje raises the point

'but is the documentary side of folk music absolutely fundamental to the tradition (maybe in border/war ballads or occupational songs? more debateable in supernatural tales?) or something that really came to the fore in the 1950s and 60s with MacColl et al? '



I would have thought it fundemental to the process of an enduring tradition and I do not think it was something invented by Ewan MColl in the 60's!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: stallion
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:42 AM

Ok, Yes, someone has said "I have thirty years experience" and been an arse, and, like me playing a guitar, doesn't seem to have got any better in thirty years. I have admitted to having one bad experience but it was the first and that did colour my view somewhat. Like my first three trips to Coniston it heaved down with rain so I said "it always rains in Coniston" not true but it was the sum of my experiences. Whether it is fair to tarnish all the young performers because of this is doubtful and I will not.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Marje
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:19 AM

I could have added - and will now - the thought that there are a small number of arrogant know-it-alls in the folk world, and they don't all have degrees. I think most of us can think of an example of the middle-aged smart-arse floor performer who's not half as good as he thinks he is. Universities don't create this sort of personality, it's just the way some people are.

In fact, a good university course will foster humility in its students. Education doesn't teach you all there is to know - it teaches you how much there is out there to learn and discover, and sets you on the road to exploring it.

Marje

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:18 AM

The young folk tradition is not the main reason that folk is in decline. Other threads have explored this.
One reason appears to be the cost of booking 'top flight guests' yet most clubs, singarounds or open mics sessions have at least one or two very good preformers. The problem is they play to the same folk every week so everyone gets bored. Listener and player alike.
Perhaps what is needed is a 'play away' scheme where residents of club A play away at club B whos residents are at club C. Some people would float to the top after exposure to a wider public. This might answer several threads such as 'how to get a gig' or the demise of the folk club
Who knows several clubs could get together and book a young tradition or old tradition for that matter.
I am sure some clubs do all this, comments please

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:59 AM

"If they ask "silly money", or if they are unpleasantly arrogant, they won't get the gigs - the market will soon sort it out."

Yup. I'm sure we can all think of examples of "the next big thing" who crashed and burned because they started to believe their own press and forgot how to be civil to people. Then again, sometimes people get a reputation they don't deserve through rumour-mongering and sad old gossips whose time is past, and whose only joy comes from bitching about other people because it make them feel "in the know". I remember being concerned about hving booked Seth Lakeman because of all the negative stories that surrounded the Equation. When he arrived, he and his band were unfailingly polite to every single member of staff in my venue.

You have to draw your own conclusions: one person may claim that a youngster was arrogant and abusive. Another interpretation of the incident might be that the complainant was bitter old folkie with a chip on his shoulder and an axe to grind, and goodness knows what they might have said to the young person in question to elicit such an extreme response. In any case, we should remember that every one of us is entitled to bad days.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,shepherdlass elsewhere
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:53 AM

Stallion - surely every degree course in the world - from folk music to accountancy - produces the occasional graduate who thinks that they are god's gift and have nothing else to learn. But in my experience they're the exception rather than the rule. Degree courses by their nature produce great graduates; intermediate graduates and some that aren't so good. Let's be glad that at last there's a part of this country where there are opportunities to learn about folk music and to take it seriously.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:35 AM

Indeed Al. The joke about the lightbulb and the folkies sometimes seems too close to the truth for comfort.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:24 AM

Disappearing ways of life...... like petrol pump attendants and bus conductors. You'd need your finger a long way up your ear for that.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:16 AM

Hi, Mandotim. I don't know what's next, but I sure am interested in finding out.

I just thought - if there was a 1-year HND course in Newcastle, I might just enrol myself. Or a 2-year part-time course perhaps. Not right away, but when I hang up my office keyboard. But no residential courses, thank you, I couldn't stand the pace of the student parties nowadays... I am serious. I think the vast majority of us posting here would benefit from such a course, and as a result so would the clubs we go to.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: stallion
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:14 AM

Who is missing the point, it isn't the study of Folklore that is being knocked it is the attitude that seems to be imbued in some graduates that they are the crème de la crème and they can piss in the faces of the paying public by deigning to turn up and produce mediocrity when they should be capable of more. I take the point that that is what semi-mature people do although I think a lack of confidence in most prevents that surfacing. Anyway, as I have said before, I probably have had one bad experience and maybe my expectations were elevated by the hype. And, the vast majority of the "uneducated" youngsters around us are wonderful company and beaver away in the sessions without any expectations of anything but enjoying themselves, and they do. So this isn't a pop at Newcastle, unless, that is, someone is telling them that they are better than they are. I personally don't think the Young Folk Tradition is undermining folk music I think there are some corkers around and they will be around for years, although I am one of those people who is fairly tolerant as to what is folk music. Anyway, as one young graduate said, I am a nobody and I don't know anything.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:09 AM

Methinks that Jim's tongue was in his cheek, Breton Cap...

I also think that if one of the Newcastle students printed this thread and stuck it on a noticeboard there would be much mirth in the corridors. Some of the pontificating here (and I am not exempt) does not bear second reading - not straightfaced. Ah, the wisdom of age; I've been waiting for it for some time now.

By the way, coming back from a gig in the erly hours of Saturday I heard on Radio 2 that Ellie Skinner, who featured at Herga some months back, got a 2.1 from Newcastle. Well done, that lass!

It's Sunday morning, smells of Sunday dinner already emanating from the kitchen, and I feel gratitude for many things. One of them is that there are young'uns interested in traditional music, and are studying it. Life is good.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:09 AM

"Is the degree a Good Thing? Is it anti-folk?"

Yes! and No!

How can you undermine anything by gaining knowledge of it? There will always be the odd idiot who thinks he is God's gift, but he'll soon have the rough edges knocked off him by REAL life.

It seems to me that offering a degree course is a very good way to perpetuate something which has been struggling to survive over the last twenty years.

At the very least we will know that there ARE youngsters out there who care.

Don T.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:04 AM

Thanks Diane; I've read the syllabus, and I agree wholeheartedly. The course appears to be well balanced between the study of the history, forms and tradition of folk music on one hand, and the needs of the modern 'market' for this approach to music performance on the other. In other words, a good mix of theory and practice. I wish it had been around when I was choosing an undergraduate course!

I can't really see what's wrong with this programme in the eyes of some; it seems to be an extension of the mentoring process I described above, with some academic credit attached for use in a world where a degree opens doors that would otherwise be closed. This mentoring used to be carried out in families ('songs I learned at my grandmother's knee'), but with the apparent decline of the extended family network this is perhaps less common.

I think it's important to remember that this degree isn't the only route to a successful career in folk music, nor is there any guarantee (based on the limited evidence currently available) that this approach will lead to greater success than any other.

One more thought; the degree programme gives an opportunity for in-depth study of a wide and fascinating area of the musical spectrum. I would argue that the 'democratisation' of information via the wonders of the web means that anyone with sufficient time, interest and an internet connection can research and explore to their heart's content irrespective of whether their study is formally recognised. Not only that, but the new phenomenon of social networking sites (now referred to as 'web 2.0') allows sharing and marketing of ideas and music much more readily. The world appears to have shifted, and that shift affects the folk music world as well. The question that's bothering me at the moment is not 'what's happening now?' but 'What's next?'.
Tim

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Marje
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:00 AM

This thread has raised some interesting points and arguments.

I don't see what the problem is with new young performers being ambitious and attempting to make a decent living out of folk music - many of the oldies would be quick to complain if the youngsters were undercutting the going rates and doing it on the cheap. If they ask "silly money", or if they are unpleasantly arrogant, they won't get the gigs - the market will soon sort it out. And for what it's worth I've seen some excellent, unpaid floor performances at our local club by young people, including at least one Newcastle graduate. Some are wise enough to realise that a free floor spot is good publicity for one's future paid gigs.

The Newcastle students don't just sign up for the course with no knowledge or experience of the folk world. The ones I know were already regulars at local clubs and had established themselves as competent musicians before applying. They're really excited at the chance to have tutors like Tim van Eycken, Chris Coe, Alistair Anderson and Sandra Kerr - and who wouldn't be? Is there maybe just a touch of envy in some of the criticism?

In other threads, there are often comments about the low or very mixed standard of floor performance in clubs by people who are, in most cases, old enough to know better. To be honest, some local clubs don't offer much in the way of example to new performers. Now at last we have a cohort of young people with fresh ideas and enthusiasm who are rasing the general standard and approaching the music from an informed and educated point of view. What's not to like about that?

A degree is never going to be a requirement for performers, and there will also be room at clubs, concerts and festivals for those who've learnt their craft by other means. Audiences don't ask to see a CV, they judge by the quality of the performance.

And as Mike has said, above - the new folk music graduates are still young, and can continue to grow and develop. Many of us would not care to be reminded how we sounded when in our twenties. I think there's every reason to hope that a fair proportion of the graduates will continue to contribute to the folk scene in a worthwhile way, either as professionals or as skilled part-timers/amateurs and enhance it for years to come.

Marje