young folk tradition undermining folk

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:07 AM

Another point in defense of young folkies wanting to go straight to the top and play arts centres etc etc. I don't think this is at all to do with having gained a qualification - rather, it's a result of today's "get famous quick" and celebrity culture, exemplified by the multitude of so-called talent and "reality" (not) shows.

Will those who remember singing into a hairbrush in front of the mirror raise their hand, please...

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:17 AM

Seems to me that the Sidmouth errors could have been on either side.

Was it one of the Folk scene standard songs Thousands or More, Wedding Song or any of thousands of other songs. If so the oncoming group should have swapped it for a reserve song or at least apologised somehow even saying something like "We hope you like our version of the song just sung by..... " would have been better.

However if the song was one the act have recorded or are known for then the floor singer should have known that the act were to follow and sung another song.

If we are to lay blame at either door we need the full facts but again I don't think this is the place to name names and one upsetting incident should not blind us to all the good stuff that is out there.

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: stallion
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:26 AM

I have no problem with a centre of excellence as long as they don't fill the students heads with the idea that they are God's gift to folk music and there place is on a pedestal. In every occupation and calling respect and reputations are earned and a good reputation takes a lot of hard work a bad one a damn site less. Some of the graduates, not all, seem to be completely detached from their audience, so in the past the old salts earned their following so it amazes me that some of the grads. have such high profiles, is it PR or am I just out of kelter with everyone else in not being that impressed?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:32 AM

*raises hand*

"Performers need to pay their dues, and not expect to be treated as 'special' because they've done a course, however good it may have been."

I have to say, I haven't encountered that attitude amongst the Newcastle students. But I have noticed that a lot of the older generation of folkies are rather chippy about the whole concept of the degree. There seems to be an attitiude that the degree is "anti-folk" in some way, and a bit of the "Eeeeh, when I were a lad we didn't need no degrees. We played the circuit, took our knocks, learned the hard way..."

And if anything, I think some of the students from the degree course actually have a tougher time gaining acceptance, as a load of old folkies with their arms crossed, sucking their gums, stand in front of them thinking "Okay, let's see why you're so bloody great then. Let's see what you learned on this so-called folk degree..." The expectations of them are higher, and there are some people I've met who are actually quite smug if kids from the degree trip up, or have a bad night, or don't set the world on fire with their between-song patter.

I certainly think that the degree should be scrutinised - there's nothing wrong with healthy criticism, and if constructive it can only help the degree to get better all the time. But as far as "needing" a folk degree...well, lots of great young performers are getting on very well without it, others are benefitting hugely. Horses for courses.

Is the degree a Good Thing? Is it anti-folk? Well, lots of countries who take their folk music far more seriously than England does - the Scandinavian countries, for instance - have incorporated folk music into university study for years. It stands alongside classical music in terms of status. That can't be a bad thing.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: stallion
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:37 AM

George and Mike, I take the point but who is thrusting them into the limelight? Why don't they graduate and then build a reputation for themselves, when was the last time a "Starred First" was given the Chair of a faculty upon graduation? Perhaps they are being driven before they have been broken to the harness. perhaps they ought to be Mentored by an old hand, like training plough horses. OK, so I had a bad experience with an arrogant oik, I shall put that behind me and try to look through the mists of youth, after all, someone has to make allowances it may as well be me.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: oggie
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:51 AM

Arrogance is not the sole preserve of the young neither is ability the sole preserve of their elders.

Why do performers need to pay their dues in the same way as people before them? Times move on, there aren't the Clubs there used to be which offered a (hard) living, if someone will book them for an Arts Centre good luck to both parties. Having a 40 year career as a professional folk musician may no longer be viable (if it ever was for all but a few), Kate Rusby may well be the career model for one type of new performer. Pete Coe, with his mix of work and interests may be another.

It will be interesting to see down the road the mix that Northumbria turns out. My own guess is that there will be a very few musicians who have a lengthy career, a few who do it for a few years and end up taking paid employment and some who do nothing, rather like music courses (of all genres) have been doing for years.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:52 AM

Ruth - £400 for a trio is a fair fee , with the distance travelled taken into sonsideration , its a VERY fair fee to charge ! However £1200 for a group to travel fifty miles to a club (as WE were quoted a little while back) is a little greedy !

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:03 AM

Surely all students (in my experience) think that the older generation have neither seen the things they have seen-or done the things they are doing -I wouldn't single out Newcastle students partcularly. The ones I have encountered are bright young things, lively and talented. I have never however, singled them out as being more or less talented than others. Some young musicians do lack presence and personality, but you get that with experience and those words my mother said to me and I say to my granddaughters come to mind 'When your older.....'. It's a pity the future of folk music relies so much on academia though - kind of throws the face of the tradition. I think we have to accept that things move on -festivals are the thing and many do do their apprenticeship, just not in the folk clubs.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:05 AM

"It's a pity the future of folk music relies so much on academia though - kind of throws the face of the tradition."

Why?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:14 AM

Diane, I love some of your posts, but sometimes wonder if your knickers are sandpaper lined. You do go in for the odd abrasive remark don't you?

Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:18 AM

It's a pity the future of folk music relies so much on academia

Does it?
And if it does, why not?
As somebody said, the only harm you can do to a trad piece is not to re-arrange it.
And, I'd add, not be aware of its origins and of the provenance and cultural background of the song and tune carriers.
'Tradition' does not equate with ignorance and studied lack of awareness.
That's coming dangerously close to 'good enough for f*lk'.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:26 AM

In my humble opinion NO-ONE is undermining folk music, it's not possible, this is why it has endured for so long. [ and continues to do so ]


The mere fact that young people are actually studying folk music etc. can only be regarded as a good thing, when and if they start performing professionally, they will learn, and pay their dues.

Lets have more.

eric

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:27 AM

The future of folk music relies on many things. The dwindling folk club scene has its role, and so do the festivals. And the open mike cafes, and the centres of excellence, and the arts centres, and parents singing songs to their kids, and the existence of the EFDSS and the V.Williams library, and C# House. I feel no need to single out the "most important" factor in ensuring a future for folk music because a) I don't know it and b) I am pretty certain that no single factor can ever be sufficient. Folk music is/should be pervasive, turning up at all sort of moments in one's life and all sorts of place - hence, many avenues required for it to travel freely.

In a flowing river, the water molecules go this way and that, individually; some hit obstacles, some backtrack, some never make it to the sea. But the river moves forward. And so does folk music, I believe.

(PS: Ruth, regarding the raised hand: I knew it, I was behind the one-way mirror!)

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: stallion
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:35 AM

Giok I don't think Dianne has abrasive in her underwear as you suggest the posts aren't always vitriolic, it's more an allergic reaction to some keywords.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: mandotim
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM

I can remember my first, stumbling attempts at trying to communicate with an audience via a folk song. (Shudders delicately). I can also remember a number of older, much more experienced performers who took the time to criticise (usually constructively), suggest things, praise where appropriate, teach me, recommend me to others and generally encourage. I'm still not the performer I'd like to be, but I'm better than I would have been without their guidance.

As a result, I see my role now as enjoying the music of newer generations, helping where I can and where that help is sought or welcomed. An example; a lot of young musicians don't have a clue about how to set up a PA to produce a good sound, especially with acoustic instruments. I do; and I have a really good PA setup that I don't use all the time. I work with a number of young soloists and bands, usually for free or expenses. It's not altruism, though. I see it as indirectly repaying the debt I owe to my own benefactors, who played their part in 'keeping the river moving forward' (thanks for the image, George!).

I'm an academic these days, so I can't really attack the role of academia in society generally; but I would argue for balance. Folk music is not a theoretical pursuit in my view, and whilst study can produce knowledge and background, there is also a need for talent honed by performance and feedback from audiences. It's a bit like the recent move to train nurses in universities, rather than on the wards; a knowledgeable nurse is not necessarily a good nurse. That comes from the interaction with patients in the 'live' situation, and drawing on the experience of other staff. The study of folk music has it's place though; greater understanding of the material and its history must surely lead to more informed performance, at least in the long run.

Sorry for the long post; I still haven't managed to say everything I wanted to.
Tim

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 03:31 PM

I think it is a pity because I would like to think that traditional music is not just a snapshot in time to be studied in books and libraries, but experienced and added to by each generation. I am all for young musicians knowing the provinence of traditional music. But I would also like to think that there are people out their talking to actual people, learning and discovering communities and traditions before they disappear. It may be in my interpretation of tradition (I think we've been down this road!) differs from everyone else, but in 200 years time I don't want there to be a gap in our traditional music history -I want that generation to be able to hear songs about the decline of the farming, or the fishing in this century. I get letters sent to me all the time telling me stories and incidents which are totally fascinating, and invited to talk to people, harbour masters, Humber pilots, little old ladies in residential care who have amazing memories that they are desperate to capture-small stories amazing stories -all to make you cry or laugh and desperate to be made into a permanent memory in verse or song. We need young musicians to capture the here and now of our lives, before they are lost to us and all the generations to come. If the university courses sned out students into the community with notepad and pen so they can lay down traditions for the future -then bring it on-but I fear that they do not.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 03:53 PM

I don't know whether they do or not, Linda (referring to your last sentence). But I know that some of the youngstersb are indeed digging metaphorically, to find old material. They are probably less interested right now in documenting the present or recent past - somehow I feel that this is more of an interest to your generation and also to mine. Not sure why - perhaps it requires a few years of living experience to want to look to your immediate roots, close up as it were; while the more distant past fascinates more readily and is less contentious or politically/emotionally loaded with links to one's own experience.

But the interest in the past, recent or distant, is being established in the minds of these youngsters, and that's what's important. The seeds might take a few years to germinate in some; in others (like Jim Causley) they take hold immediately - some of the wording in Jim's sleevenotes for "Fruit of the Earth" give this away, I think his immediate family probably had the biggest impact on him though.

I don't want to get back into a definitions discussion; but any good music/song/dance/art has to have relevance, in my book. Not necessarily relevance to today, but to something that touches us, moves us, makes us feel or think, instinctive or conscious. If it doesn't, it simply does not succeed. Every kind of music that is listened to, does so because of that relevance. It's just that hip-hop relates to different things than traditional folk, whose relevance in turn differs from that of Dylan's songs or those of Johnny Cash. The youngsters coming out of the Newcastle course are looking for relevance to themselves too, and this might differ to ours. So it may be that some parts of the folk music we love may not have relevance to them any more - other than academic - ad they may be overlooked. THIS is where academia helps to preserve such temporarily "uninteresting" areas, until their turn comes again perhaps, in the cyclical way that interests and fads sometimes move.

Jaysus on a bike, but I've rambled...sorry.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: shepherdlass
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:32 PM

Linda, I've seen some examples of both the students and tutors at the Newcastle degree course going out there with notebook and pen (well, more likely a minidisc recorder, but you get the drift) to interview and record the performances of traditional musicians. I don't know if all those on the course study context and community as thoroughly, but certainly those that I've met indicate that it's far more than a "technique factory". Hope this is reassuring. Incidentally, I'm not on the folk degree course, nor at Newcastle Uni, so have no axe to grind.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:46 PM

well if you ask me, they're all bastards.

they have totally improper technique, and consequently they all stick the wrong finger in their ears...sometimes in the wrong ear. Bloody disgraceful!

And whats more they sing fol de diddle di day, when Cecil Sharp and Hammond were quite clear that fol de diddle rye day is not just a random load of crap sung sung by pissed up peasants but refers to matters of great great cultural significance. I mean one's a flattened fifth, and one's a minor accidental. Need I say more...?

Quite frankly, one's heart bleeds to think of our wonderful tradition entrusted to these ruffians and deliquents.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,FP
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:04 PM

WE totally agree!

The folk police.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:38 PM

er shepherdlass I think that is my point - they should indeed be doing that but also I believe they should be going into communities and listening to real people finding out about their disappearing and changing lifestyles contributing to the tradition, discovering writing music about real issues, real life. I am not digging at anyone-I have friends on the course, and I am sure learning from other musicians is enlightening -but the traditional musicians of the future for me would be the likes of Dave Evardson, who take the real stories turn them into wonderful songs that are a social commentary on the way that the fishing industry in Grimsby has changed over the last 30 years or so -if the course produces a dozen Dave's then its a job well done.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: oggie
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:56 PM

Oral history is a different field from folk music. Writing songs based on oral history is not, in my opinion, adding to the tradition per se. Some songs may become (to the chagrin of their authors) "trad" (take a bow John Connolly), some may be good songs which are widely sung for a few years and then vanish (how much of Ewan MacColl's output is still widely sung?).

Remould Theatre did this type of work (The Northern Trawl et al) as across the country have done countless other Drama Groups. Writing songs or plays about history doesn't somehow validate the course or the people on it. I am not sure that the purpose of the course is to turn out people who can write songs about disappearing worlds, just as my degree (Economic History) didn't condemn me to a life of history.

Statistically very few students end up in jobs directly relevant to their degree although the skills they learn in doing their degree may well be important in their future career. For the students on the course (like most students) I suspect that the bottom line will be "do I get a job at the end of it?"

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 06:18 PM

how much of Ewan MacColl's output is still widely sung?


perhaps you should go to a folk club and submit a reseach paper on the subject.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: shepherdlass
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:02 PM

It's very laudable to take disappearing ways of life and turn them into songs (which the new radio ballads - featuring one Kate Rusby! - have also done) ... but is this tradition? I'd have thought learning the techniques and the repertoires of older musicans was more the way that younger performers become immersed in a tradition, something they then take forward by adapting it to their own tastes, times and audiences.

Documenting these traditions/patterns of living is something else, just as important and notable as performance, and obviously something that can inform and shape future performance - but is the documentary side of folk music absolutely fundamental to the tradition (maybe in border/war ballads or occupational songs? more debateable in supernatural tales?) or something that really came to the fore in the 1950s and 60s with MacColl et al?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:54 PM

has anyone making profound pronouncements on this thread actually taken the time to look at the curriculum of the Newcastle course? There's a loty of I really hope they're studying the tradition..."

Answer: they are. That's why there are tutors like Chris Coe on the course: to give them some grounding in the sources for the music.

Many of the gainsayers could do worse than reading the article about the degree in a recent issue of English Dance and Song magazine, or at least finding out a wee bit more about the course, before issuing their dire pronouncements on the graduates of the degree.


I stand by my earlier post. Yopu lot are beginning to sound like the Four Yorkshiremen in the Monty Python sketch...

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 01:52 AM

Any undergraduate course, let alone what goes on at The Sage, is not 'job training'. Students go and study what, ideally, they have a passion to research and develop. And these are skills they will use in whatever path they follow, whether directly related or not.

The Newcastle degree is not '10 steps to become a folk musician' nor is it a crash course in oral tradition. These are people who would be playing and singing anyway, and learning from song and tune carriers. But it just so happens that they have been fortunate enough to get a place on an academic (but performance-based) course, the content of which includes these activities along with modules such as business skills.

Every time this subject comes up (and it has with unfailing regularity over the past five or so years), I have posted links to this very syllabus and entry requirements, but do any of these ill-informed knockers ever read it? It's a bit like when Thames Valley University's Hotel & Catering Department ran a course on Indian cuisine and out came the remarks about curry degrees.

There's really nothing like the serious study of English trad music (on the lines that has been the norm in Ireland, Scotland, Sweden and Finland for decades) to bring out the 'good enough for f*lk' brigade'. It is a symptom of how the English have been, for a couple of generations, conditioned into despising and ridiculing their own cultural heritage. Hurrah for the dedicated tutors (working musicians of long experience themselves) who are encouraging more and more graduates to get out into their communities and reverse this, and to persuade others as well as themselves to respect, perform and add to it.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: oggie
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 02:19 AM

Well said Diane

Steve

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 02:55 AM

"That's why there are tutors like Chris Coe"

And I believe Sandra Kerr and Vic Gammon all working Folkies before becoming involved at the Uni under discussion here.

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:15 AM

foklie dave ,Kate Rusby is a big star,SO WHAT,That doesnt mean there isnt room for improvement in her singing.

That's Right Cap'n. I am not the person to offer it and neither (IMHO) are you.

She has been well promoted,

You prefer she was badly promoted? You prefer she was not promoted at all? I think all singers would like to be well promoted.

She has acquired good technique[breath control,and good intonation],but as far as I am concerned she sings with complete lack of understanding of the storyline.
if she has listened to any of the singers I mentioned it doesn't show.

Well since I first wrote, it is my understanding from information received that she DID listen to traditional music as I would have expected - but surprisingly she listened to a wide range other stuff too. Why should it show? Wouldn't people then accuse her of being a ...whoever....imitator had it showed?

the point is good technique can be learned[on a degree course or from a teacher],

Well the person who teaches voice (to the student on the degree course I spent an hour talking to yesterday )is Chris Coe and the student in question thinks she is wonderful as a teacher. I reckon most people would agree with that.


Kate spent years honing her craft and no doubt others will do so as well. It ain't that important Dick - I would contend that Martin Carthy and indeed the Watersons have very little stage craft. Tow of the biggest influences on UK folk music.

And do keep up Dick, John Foreman, Roy Harris and Derek Brimstone are all retired.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:32 AM

I'm for holding the young ones back for as long as possible.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:38 AM

"I'm for holding the young ones back for as long as possible."

Oh! Why?

Do please tell us what it is you are worried about.

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Marje
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:00 AM

This thread has raised some interesting points and arguments.

I don't see what the problem is with new young performers being ambitious and attempting to make a decent living out of folk music - many of the oldies would be quick to complain if the youngsters were undercutting the going rates and doing it on the cheap. If they ask "silly money", or if they are unpleasantly arrogant, they won't get the gigs - the market will soon sort it out. And for what it's worth I've seen some excellent, unpaid floor performances at our local club by young people, including at least one Newcastle graduate. Some are wise enough to realise that a free floor spot is good publicity for one's future paid gigs.

The Newcastle students don't just sign up for the course with no knowledge or experience of the folk world. The ones I know were already regulars at local clubs and had established themselves as competent musicians before applying. They're really excited at the chance to have tutors like Tim van Eycken, Chris Coe, Alistair Anderson and Sandra Kerr - and who wouldn't be? Is there maybe just a touch of envy in some of the criticism?

In other threads, there are often comments about the low or very mixed standard of floor performance in clubs by people who are, in most cases, old enough to know better. To be honest, some local clubs don't offer much in the way of example to new performers. Now at last we have a cohort of young people with fresh ideas and enthusiasm who are rasing the general standard and approaching the music from an informed and educated point of view. What's not to like about that?

A degree is never going to be a requirement for performers, and there will also be room at clubs, concerts and festivals for those who've learnt their craft by other means. Audiences don't ask to see a CV, they judge by the quality of the performance.

And as Mike has said, above - the new folk music graduates are still young, and can continue to grow and develop. Many of us would not care to be reminded how we sounded when in our twenties. I think there's every reason to hope that a fair proportion of the graduates will continue to contribute to the folk scene in a worthwhile way, either as professionals or as skilled part-timers/amateurs and enhance it for years to come.

Marje

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:04 AM

Thanks Diane; I've read the syllabus, and I agree wholeheartedly. The course appears to be well balanced between the study of the history, forms and tradition of folk music on one hand, and the needs of the modern 'market' for this approach to music performance on the other. In other words, a good mix of theory and practice. I wish it had been around when I was choosing an undergraduate course!

I can't really see what's wrong with this programme in the eyes of some; it seems to be an extension of the mentoring process I described above, with some academic credit attached for use in a world where a degree opens doors that would otherwise be closed. This mentoring used to be carried out in families ('songs I learned at my grandmother's knee'), but with the apparent decline of the extended family network this is perhaps less common.

I think it's important to remember that this degree isn't the only route to a successful career in folk music, nor is there any guarantee (based on the limited evidence currently available) that this approach will lead to greater success than any other.

One more thought; the degree programme gives an opportunity for in-depth study of a wide and fascinating area of the musical spectrum. I would argue that the 'democratisation' of information via the wonders of the web means that anyone with sufficient time, interest and an internet connection can research and explore to their heart's content irrespective of whether their study is formally recognised. Not only that, but the new phenomenon of social networking sites (now referred to as 'web 2.0') allows sharing and marketing of ideas and music much more readily. The world appears to have shifted, and that shift affects the folk music world as well. The question that's bothering me at the moment is not 'what's happening now?' but 'What's next?'.
Tim

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:09 AM

"Is the degree a Good Thing? Is it anti-folk?"

Yes! and No!

How can you undermine anything by gaining knowledge of it? There will always be the odd idiot who thinks he is God's gift, but he'll soon have the rough edges knocked off him by REAL life.

It seems to me that offering a degree course is a very good way to perpetuate something which has been struggling to survive over the last twenty years.

At the very least we will know that there ARE youngsters out there who care.

Don T.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:09 AM

Methinks that Jim's tongue was in his cheek, Breton Cap...

I also think that if one of the Newcastle students printed this thread and stuck it on a noticeboard there would be much mirth in the corridors. Some of the pontificating here (and I am not exempt) does not bear second reading - not straightfaced. Ah, the wisdom of age; I've been waiting for it for some time now.

By the way, coming back from a gig in the erly hours of Saturday I heard on Radio 2 that Ellie Skinner, who featured at Herga some months back, got a 2.1 from Newcastle. Well done, that lass!

It's Sunday morning, smells of Sunday dinner already emanating from the kitchen, and I feel gratitude for many things. One of them is that there are young'uns interested in traditional music, and are studying it. Life is good.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: stallion
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:14 AM

Who is missing the point, it isn't the study of Folklore that is being knocked it is the attitude that seems to be imbued in some graduates that they are the crème de la crème and they can piss in the faces of the paying public by deigning to turn up and produce mediocrity when they should be capable of more. I take the point that that is what semi-mature people do although I think a lack of confidence in most prevents that surfacing. Anyway, as I have said before, I probably have had one bad experience and maybe my expectations were elevated by the hype. And, the vast majority of the "uneducated" youngsters around us are wonderful company and beaver away in the sessions without any expectations of anything but enjoying themselves, and they do. So this isn't a pop at Newcastle, unless, that is, someone is telling them that they are better than they are. I personally don't think the Young Folk Tradition is undermining folk music I think there are some corkers around and they will be around for years, although I am one of those people who is fairly tolerant as to what is folk music. Anyway, as one young graduate said, I am a nobody and I don't know anything.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:16 AM

Hi, Mandotim. I don't know what's next, but I sure am interested in finding out.

I just thought - if there was a 1-year HND course in Newcastle, I might just enrol myself. Or a 2-year part-time course perhaps. Not right away, but when I hang up my office keyboard. But no residential courses, thank you, I couldn't stand the pace of the student parties nowadays... I am serious. I think the vast majority of us posting here would benefit from such a course, and as a result so would the clubs we go to.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:24 AM

Disappearing ways of life...... like petrol pump attendants and bus conductors. You'd need your finger a long way up your ear for that.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:35 AM

Indeed Al. The joke about the lightbulb and the folkies sometimes seems too close to the truth for comfort.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,shepherdlass elsewhere
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:53 AM

Stallion - surely every degree course in the world - from folk music to accountancy - produces the occasional graduate who thinks that they are god's gift and have nothing else to learn. But in my experience they're the exception rather than the rule. Degree courses by their nature produce great graduates; intermediate graduates and some that aren't so good. Let's be glad that at last there's a part of this country where there are opportunities to learn about folk music and to take it seriously.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:59 AM

"If they ask "silly money", or if they are unpleasantly arrogant, they won't get the gigs - the market will soon sort it out."

Yup. I'm sure we can all think of examples of "the next big thing" who crashed and burned because they started to believe their own press and forgot how to be civil to people. Then again, sometimes people get a reputation they don't deserve through rumour-mongering and sad old gossips whose time is past, and whose only joy comes from bitching about other people because it make them feel "in the know". I remember being concerned about hving booked Seth Lakeman because of all the negative stories that surrounded the Equation. When he arrived, he and his band were unfailingly polite to every single member of staff in my venue.

You have to draw your own conclusions: one person may claim that a youngster was arrogant and abusive. Another interpretation of the incident might be that the complainant was bitter old folkie with a chip on his shoulder and an axe to grind, and goodness knows what they might have said to the young person in question to elicit such an extreme response. In any case, we should remember that every one of us is entitled to bad days.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:18 AM

The young folk tradition is not the main reason that folk is in decline. Other threads have explored this.
One reason appears to be the cost of booking 'top flight guests' yet most clubs, singarounds or open mics sessions have at least one or two very good preformers. The problem is they play to the same folk every week so everyone gets bored. Listener and player alike.
Perhaps what is needed is a 'play away' scheme where residents of club A play away at club B whos residents are at club C. Some people would float to the top after exposure to a wider public. This might answer several threads such as 'how to get a gig' or the demise of the folk club
Who knows several clubs could get together and book a young tradition or old tradition for that matter.
I am sure some clubs do all this, comments please

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Marje
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:19 AM

I could have added - and will now - the thought that there are a small number of arrogant know-it-alls in the folk world, and they don't all have degrees. I think most of us can think of an example of the middle-aged smart-arse floor performer who's not half as good as he thinks he is. Universities don't create this sort of personality, it's just the way some people are.

In fact, a good university course will foster humility in its students. Education doesn't teach you all there is to know - it teaches you how much there is out there to learn and discover, and sets you on the road to exploring it.

Marje

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: stallion
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:42 AM

Ok, Yes, someone has said "I have thirty years experience" and been an arse, and, like me playing a guitar, doesn't seem to have got any better in thirty years. I have admitted to having one bad experience but it was the first and that did colour my view somewhat. Like my first three trips to Coniston it heaved down with rain so I said "it always rains in Coniston" not true but it was the sum of my experiences. Whether it is fair to tarnish all the young performers because of this is doubtful and I will not.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:45 AM

i think you will find that folk clubs do that already Warwick -swapping etc-where geographically practical. Some folks just happen to go to more than one folk club as well. We have posters in the Union Bar at the local uni and we are very lucky-and priveleged to have many visitors to our club where regulars will step aside to hear something different. I do not think there is an issue, but then I do not think clubs are in decline either. I have seen the curriculum for the degree at Newcastle -most excellent for the art of perpetuating the music but Marje raises the point

'but is the documentary side of folk music absolutely fundamental to the tradition (maybe in border/war ballads or occupational songs? more debateable in supernatural tales?) or something that really came to the fore in the 1950s and 60s with MacColl et al? '



I would have thought it fundemental to the process of an enduring tradition and I do not think it was something invented by Ewan MColl in the 60's!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:12 AM

Very glad to hear you are swapping singers in Newcasle. Trouble is I could not get there and back in one evening from Dorset.

As for a university degree in subject of folk and the tradition, I would love to do it as (quote) 'a boring old fart' Why should the young ones get all the fun (and knowledge)
Ewan MacCall invented nothing. Just the right man in the right place at the right time. The real heros are people like the Copper family and Sam Larner et al

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Patrick_Costello
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 08:11 AM

If you want to make a living as a folk musician the last thing you want to do is be anywhere near the folk music community.

Ignore what everybody else is doing. Focus on developing your skill, understanding your craft and find a way to inject what you do into your community.

A folk musician is, like it or not, a musician of the people. Our "job" has nothing to do with being on stage or self-promotion. Folk music is personal. It's face to face. It's in living rooms and front porches. Our success is not measured in how many records we sell or any of the other nonsense non-musicians think of in terms of attributes of success. No, our success is measured in how we live and in the lives we touch.

In my case, I ended up making a pretty good living without performing. I gave away my music and, because of the roundabout way folk music works, everything I gave away ended up making me money.

-Patrick

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:36 AM

The young folk tradition is not the main reason that folk is in decline

and

It seems to me that offering a degree course is a very good way to perpetuate something which has been struggling to survive over the last twenty years.

Let me try and do this gently. There is no evidence that folk music (however widely or narrowly you care to define it) is in decline and if you feel it is (or has been) I would like to know on what you base your statement.

There is tons more live folk music now than there ever was. (I understand Shrewsbury will have a 2,500 seater marquee this year for the main stage and a 1,000 seater for the second stage). Some decline......

Most major towns and many smaller ones host sessions - something that was rare until the late sixties/early seventies with the exception of the Irish community. There were few festivals and they tended to be dance-orientated.

There are now dozens of festivals some with very big attendances. Even into the early seventies there were few instrumentalists. In the past few weeks I have been privileged to listen to a dozen astonishingly talented young fiddlers, flute players, accordion players, watch dancers, and listen to singers most of whom were around 20/25 years of age. And some are are graduates of the Newcastle course one is on the course one is going on the course and others haven't and wont.

Incidentally like most university courses there are a number of mature students on the course - it isn't all young people.

If you want to make a living as a folk musician the last thing you want to do is be anywhere near the folk music community.

There is no way to address this gently. Just about as useless a piece of advice as I have ever seen.

And if you want to hear how the folk scene is thriving in Scotland go and listen to all the wonderful music that Archie Fisher played on last week's Travelling Folk via the BBC's listen again. Everything the Mike Harding Show could be and isn't.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM

Go on then .... 99

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:52 AM

if you insist..100