BS: Ridiculous propaganda

Subject: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 12:55 PM

FORWARD OPERATING BASE THUNDER, Afghanistan - The story of a 6-year-old Afghan boy who says he thwarted an effort by Taliban militants to trick him into being a suicide bomber provoked tears and anger at a meeting of tribal leaders.

The account from Juma Gul, a dirt-caked child who collects scrap metal for money, left American soldiers dumbfounded that a youngster could be sent on such a mission. Afghan troops crowded around the boy to call him a hero.

Though the Taliban dismissed the story as propaganda, at a time when U.S. and NATO forces are under increasing criticism over civilian casualties, both Afghan tribal elders and U.S. military officers said they were convinced by his dramatic account.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19420772/

This is the biggest load of garbage I've read in a while. what is the Bush administration trying to pull? When have we EVER seen small children used as suicide bombers???

How did this boy come into contact with terrorists????

Where and when did this happen??

They say they believe him but based on what???

Maybe they're trying to mask the fact that the Taliban aren't going away, that opium production higher than it's ever been, that we are losing that country faster than we are losing Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 12:58 PM

In 'nam kids were wired with explosives.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:04 PM

Yes and American kids of not much more years were fighting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:07 PM

What do you find strange about it? The people who threaten people's families to make them go out as suicide bombers ( a true example, but you probably won't believe it) and blow up crowds of civilians (including children) would not want to hurt a child to kill Americans?


"Juma said that sometime last month Taliban fighters forced him to wear a vest they said would spray out flowers when he touched a button. He said they told him that when he saw American soldiers, "throw your body at them."

The militants allegedly cornered Juma in a Taliban-controlled district in southern Afghanistan's Ghazni province. Their target was an impoverished youngster being raised by an older sister — but also one who proved too street-smart for their plan.

"When they first put the vest on my body I didn't know what to think, but then I felt the bomb," Juma told The Associated Press as he ate lamb and rice after being introduced to the elders at this joint U.S.-Afghan base in Ghazni. "After I figured out it was a bomb, I went to the Afghan soldiers for help."

While Juma's story could not be independently verified, local government leaders backed his account and the U.S. and NATO military missions said they believed his story.

Abdul Rahim Deciwal, the chief administrator for Juma's village of Athul, brought the boy and an older brother, Dad Gul, to a weekend meeting between Afghan elders and U.S. Army Col. Martin P. Schweitzer."



Example of Taliban using children:

"However, a gory Taliban video that surfaced in April showed militants instructing a boy of about 12 as he beheaded an alleged traitor with a large knife. U.N. officials condemned the act as a war crime."


Reason for using children:

"Maj. John Thomas, a spokesman for NATO's International Security Assistance Force, said he was "a bit skeptical" about Juma's story at first, "but everything I've heard makes me more and more comfortable."

Thomas said the case would force soldiers to think twice before assuming children are safe."

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:13 PM

BTW, there are documented cases (in Iraq) of insurgents using young ( 9 year old, I believe) boys to retrieve weapons from dead fighters during fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:15 PM

I'd always believe the worse of anybody who benefited from Thatcher's largesse.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:18 PM

Note the date:

"Posted 7/23/2005 4:04 PM

Taliban recruiting children, U.S. commander says

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Taliban-led rebels have been hit so hard recently they are being forced to recruit children and their command structure has been fractured, a U.S. commander said Saturday despite a recent surge in violence.
Despite the setback — more than 500 rebels have been killed since March — militants are likely to step up attacks in the lead-up to crucial Sept. 18 legislative elections, Maj. Gen. Jason Kamiya told The Associated Press in an interview.

"The Taliban and al-Qaeda feel that this is their final chance to impede Afghanistan's progress to ... becoming a nation," said Kamiya, the U.S. military operational commander in Afghanistan. "They will challenge us all the way through Sept. 18."

But he said the ranks of Taliban in some areas have been so devastated by heavy fighting that the rebels are forcing families "to give up one son to fight."

"They have been hit so hard they now have to recruit more fighters. They are recruiting younger and younger fighters: 14, 15 and 16 years-old," Kamiya said. "The enemy is having a hard time keeping its recruit rates up."

He said part of the reason the rebels have suffered such unprecedented losses recently was that they have been caught gathering in large groups three times and pounded by airstrikes and ground forces. Some 170 suspected insurgents were killed in a weeklong battle in June in a mountainous militant hide-out.

"There is no (rebel) organizational chain of command ... because we have succeeded thus far in disrupting their means to regroup and conduct a coordinated attack," Kamiya said. "They can no longer move around with impunity."

His comments came despite Afghanistan's government warning that the Taliban and al-Qaeda have launched a campaign to subvert the elections — the next step toward democracy after a quarter century of fighting.

Last month, militants in Kunar province, near the border with Pakistan, ambushed a U.S. Navy SEAL team killing three commandos, and hours later shot down a special forces helicopter with 16 troops on board. It was the deadliest loss for U.S. forces in Afghanistan since ousting the Taliban in 2001.

Hundreds of Afghans also have been killed in recent months in near-daily ambushes, bombings and execution-style killings. The increase in violence has prompted local politicians and international observers to caution that three years of progress toward peace was threatened.

Kamiya's warning that children are being recruited into the Taliban comes two days after the United Nations said that most of an estimated 8,000 child soldiers in Afghanistan would have been demobilized and enrolled in education programs by the end of this year.

But the program has focused largely on areas beside the country's southern and eastern regions, where the Taliban are strongest. "

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:20 PM

Wednesday, February 14, 2007
"Taliban flee battle using children as shields

Brave Taliban fighters, did your bosses not tell you about the 72 virgins that are supposedly waiting for you if you are killed in combat, or do you just know they are lying.


: Yahoo! News reported Taliban fighters used children as human shields
to flee heavy fighting this week during an operation by foreign and Afghan forces to clear rebels from around a key hydro-electric dam, NATO said on Wednesday. The Taliban have used human shields before, but never children, local residents say.
They usually use women, because they are larger, and you may be able to hide behind one woman, (or just take her burka and pretend to be a woman), but with children you may need several to hide behind."

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:23 PM

The issue of "child soldiers" is a world-wide problem. Here are some links to Human Rights Watch articles:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/06/20/sierra16214.htm

http://hrw.org/campaigns/crp/index.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/isrl-pa/

And you can find more on the Human Rights Watch website.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:23 PM

Nato accuses Taliban of using children in suicide missions


· Troops say bomb defused on six-year-old boy
· Claim follows 13 civilian deaths in air strike

Chiade O'Shea Islamabad
Saturday June 23, 2007
The Guardian


Children as young as six are being used by the Taliban in increasingly desperate suicide missions, coalition forces in Afghanistan claimed yesterday.
The International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), to which Britain contributes 5,000 troops in southern Afghanistan, revealed that soldiers defused an explosive vest which had been placed on a six-year-old who had been told to attack Afghan army forces in the east of the country.

The boy was spotted after appearing confused at a checkpoint. The vest was defused and no one was hurt.

The claim came only hours after the second report this week that civilians had been killed in Nato military operations.

Nine women, three babies and the mullah of a local mosque died alongside 20 suspected Taliban militants after an air strike, Helmand's police chief, Mohammad Hussein Andiwal, said.

The air strike had been launched in response to an attack on Nato troops by militants near the town of Gereshk. An estimated 120 people have been killed in recent weeks, including seven schoolboys who died in a US air strike on Sunday.

Yesterday ISAF said it was investigating reports from the Afghan authorities that civilians had been killed. But it also accused the Taliban of using civilians as battleground cover, and said the incident with the boy signalled a new type of tactic. The boy had been ordered to target a check point in Miri, in the Andar district of Ghazni province.

"They placed explosives on a six-year-old boy and told him to walk up to the Afghan police or army and push the button," said Captain Michael Cormier, the company commander who intercepted the child, in a statement. "Fortunately, the boy did not understand and asked patrolling officers why he had this vest on."

Lieutenant Colonel David Accetta, ISAF eastern regional command spokesman, told the Guardian: "In the past we have not seen the Taliban sink that low, to use children as suicide bombers. The personnel secured the vest to make sure the child was safe."

Lt Col Accetta said the procedure for dealing with an armed minor had so far been untested in Afghanistan.

"It would have been difficult to know what to do considering it was a six-year-old boy and he was presumably going to push the button himself or someone was going to detonate it for him remotely," Lt Col Accetta said.

The rules of military engagement are easily muddied when a child poses a direct threat, he explained. "What we do if we identify the fact that an adult is wearing a suicide vest is we use whatever force we deem necessary to protect the lives of our soldiers and any civilians. Of course it makes it more difficult - it's a six year-old child."

The date of the incident, the boy's name and information on what happened to him afterwards were not immediately available, Lt Col Accetta said. The Guardian has been unable to independently corroborate the claim.

ISAF has accused the Taliban of intentionally living and fighting in residential areas, capitalising on the international forces' reticence to put ordinary Afghans at risk.

"They will normally intermix with the civilian population with the thought that we won't engage them there, and it's true, we won't do that," Lt Col Accetta maintained. "They are deliberately putting civilians - women and children - at risk by bringing the combat into close proximity with them."

Coalition forces have struggled in recent days to pacify a swell of anger following repeated incidents where innocent civilians have apparently been killed in military operations.

Responding to reports that women and children had been killed in the latest airstrike, a spokesman, Lt Col Charlie Mayo, said: "If civilians had been identified in the area the air strike would not have gone ahead."

He added: "ISAF has demonstrated this restraint on a number of occasions and goes to great lengths to minimise civilian casualties."

Backstory

That the civilian toll in Afghanistan is on the rise is not in dispute. At least 230 people have been killed already this year, including the 25 who died yesterday and seven children killed in an airstrike on Sunday. What is more contentious is who is to blame. Nato accused the Taliban of hiding behind civilians during attacks. But protests against civilian deaths are growing and unsettling the government. President Hamid Karzai has insisted that Afghan authorities be consulted on any airstrikes. He said yesterday's deaths were "difficult for us to accept".

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:26 PM

"Massacres

The Taliban have massacred hundreds of Afghan civilians, including women and children, in Yakaolang, Mazar-I-Sharif, Bamiyan, Qezelabad, and other towns. Many of the victims of these massacres were targeted because of their ethnic or religious identity.

Massacre at Yakaolang: January 2001

Taliban forces committed a massacre in Yakaolang in January 2001. The victims were primarily Hazaras. The massacre began on January 8, 2001, and continued for four days. The Taliban detained about 300 civilian adult males, including staff members of local humanitarian organizations. The men were herded to assembly points, and then shot by firing squad in public view. According to Human Rights Watch, about 170 men are confirmed to have been killed. According to Amnesty International, eyewitnesses reported the deliberate killing of dozens of civilians hiding in a mosque: Taliban soldiers fired rockets into a mosque where some 73 women, children and elderly men had taken shelter.

Massacre at Robatak Pass: May 2000

The May 2000 massacre took place near the Robatak pass. 31 bodies were found one site, of these, 26 were positively identified as civilians. The victims were Hazara Shi'as.

Massacre in Bamiyan: 1999

When the Taliban recaptured Bamiyan in 1999, there were reports that Taliban forces carried out summary executions upon entering the city. According to Amnesty International, hundreds of men, and some instances women and children, were separated from their families, taken away, and killed. Human Rights Watch reports that besides executing civilians, the Taliban burned homes and used detainees for forced labor.

Massacre in the Shomaili Plains: July 1999

Human Rights Watch reports that a Taliban offensive here was marked by summary executions, the abduction and disappearance of women, the burning of homes, destruction of property, and the cutting down of fruit trees. According to a report by the U.N. Secretary General on November 16, 1999, "The Taliban forces, who allegedly carried out these acts, essentially treated the civilian population with hostility and made no distinction between combatants and non-combatants."

Massacre in Mazar-I-Sharif: August 1998

In August 1998, the Taliban captured Mazar-I-Sharif. There were reports that between 2,000 and 5,000 men, women and children -- mostly ethnic Hazara civilians -- were massacred by the Taliban after the takeover of Mazar-I-Sharif. During the massacre, the Taliban forces carried out a systematic search for male members for the ethnic Hazara, Tajik, and Uzbek communities in the city. Human Rights Watch estimates that scores, perhaps hundreds, of Hazara men and boys were summarily executed. There were also reports that women and girls were raped and abducted during the Taliban takeover of the city.

Massacre in Mazar-I-Sharif: September 1997

Retreating Taliban forces summarily executed Hazara villagers near Mazar-I-Sharif, after having failed to capture the city. Amnesty International reported that the Taliban massacred 70 Hazara civilians, including children, in Qezelabad, near Mazar-I-Sharif. There were also reports that the Taliban forces in Faryab province killed some 600 civilians in late 1997.

Other Massacres: On at least two occasions, according to Human Rights Watch, the Taliban killed delegations of Hazara elders who had attempted to intercede with them. "

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:27 PM

The Taliban and the Humanitarian Situation

The humanitarian situation in Afghanistan is grim. Twenty years of internal armed conflict, and four years of devastating drought have contributed to this situation, but the Taliban have made an already grave situation much worse, holding the Afghan people hostage to their political agenda.

• The Taliban do not share the hardships they have imposed on the Afghan people, and they have done nothing to alleviate these hardships.

• The Taliban have not only failed to provide security, food, and shelter for the Afghan people, but they have disrupted the efforts of international relief agencies to deliver desperately needed food and medical supplies to the Afghan people.

• The Taliban have harassed Afghan and international aid workers; have seized and looted humanitarian supplies; and have stolen vehicles belonging to humanitarian agencies, including UN humanitarian agencies. According to NGOs and press reports, these incidents are on the rise.

• November 6: The UN refugee agency (UNHCR) says the Taliban is hindering humanitarian efforts inside Afghanistan, while at the same time calling for more international help. Speaking on behalf of the UNHCR, Peter Kessler said the Taliban was failing to cooperate: "The UNHCR and our partner agencies have had our vehicles stolen, our offices taken over and our staff beaten." (Source: as reported by the BBC)

• October 31: The UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) offices in Spin Boldak were taken over by Taliban soldiers. (Source: UNHCR)

• October 18: Taliban soldiers seized the Mercy Corps International Office in Kandahar, and remain in possession of the office and MCI vehicles. (Source: Mercy Corps)

• October 17: The Taliban occupied the Kunduz office and warehouse of the International Organization for Migration (IOM). The warehouse had been stocked with winter clothing, shoes and blankets to be distributed to internally displaced persons in the region. (Source: IOM)

• October 16: The Swedish Committee for Afghanistan reported that its compound in Taliban-controlled Mazar-I-Sharif was seized on October 16, with fuel stores set ablaze by the Taliban. (Source: Human Rights Watch)

• October 16: The Taliban seized control of two UN World Food Program (WFP) warehouses, one in Kabul, and one in Kandahar, containing more than half the World Food Program's wheat supply for Afghanistan. While the Kabul warehouse was returned to the WFP, the Taliban still control the Kandahar warehouse, and have prevented Afghan WFP staff from distributing food. The WFP in Kandahar had been feeding 150,000 Afghans a month before the Taliban seizure. The WFP reports that 1600 tons of food and several vehicles have since disappeared from the Kandahar WFP warehouse. (Source: World Food Program)

• October 16: The UN Security Council demanded that the Taliban should cease obstructing aid destined for the Afghan people.

• September 16-October 15: A demining agency working in Kandahar told Human Rights Watch that they had 35 vehicles confiscated by the Taliban between September 26 and October 15. The Taliban looted the offices of the agency, taking spare parts, generators, radios and the personal assets of the demining workers. (Source: Human Rights Watch)

• October 8: Armed Taliban entered the compound of a demining NGO in Kandahar and demanded vehicles. Staff who resisted were beaten. The Taliban left with several ambulances, seven pick-up trucks, and six cargo trucks from the compound. (Source: Human Rights Watch)

• October 8: Armed Taliban entered the compound of the UN Coordinator for Humanitarian Affairs in Mazar-I-Sharif, and looted communications equipment. (Source: Human Rights Watch)

• October 7: Armed Taliban entered the Kabul compound of an NGO engaged in demining operations. Staff members were beaten, and the Taliban broke some of the locks on the vehicles, but did not take them. (Source: Human Rights Watch)

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:27 PM

Taliban Hide Behind Afghan Civilians

The Taliban have put the Afghan civilian population in great danger by deliberately hiding their soldiers and equipment in civilian areas, including in mosques.

• "Whole villages are being used as human shields by the Taliban to protect their large stockpiles of ammunition and weapons hidden in nearby caves," according to a senior U.S. military officer. (As reported in the Washington Post, November 6)

• In the southern city of Kandahar, Taliban authorities who had worked for the Ministry for the Prevention of Vice and the Promotion of Virtue have reportedly relocated to mosques. In Khost, Taliban troops have reportedly taken over NGO relief organization buildings. (Attributed to a senior U.S. military officer, as reported by the Washington Post, November 6)

• According to a senior U.S. military officer, a truck in a convoy purportedly on a humanitarian mission to deliver food tipped over, and crates of tank and mortar shells could be seen spilling to the ground beneath a thin layer of flour. (As reported in the Washington Post, November 6)

• An Afghan refugee recently arrived in Pakistan from Kabul said, "Now the Taliban are taking their guns to the residential areas, and when they fire at the [American] planes, the planes see them and drop bombs on them. That's when the innocent people die." (As reported in the Christian Science Monitor, Oct. 30)

• The Taliban park their vehicles among the taxis at the central bus station in Kabul by day, and sleep in nearby hotels at night. (As reported in the New York Times, Oct. 26)

• Refugees from Kabul report that some Taliban are taking over private homes in order to avoid their barracks and reduce the risk of being bombed. These refugees also say the Taliban are storing weapons in mosques and schools. (As reported in the Washington Post and the Baltimore Sun, Oct. 24)

• The spokesman for the Department of Defense, Navy Rear Admiral Stufflebeem, said on October 24: "The Taliban regime has been moving troops and equipment and perhaps its leaders into civilian areas. The reports indicate that troops and equipment are being housed in mosques and schools to shield them from the U.S. bombardment...."

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:30 PM

Taliban Forcibly Conscript Young Afghans

Refugees from Afghanistan arriving in Pakistan in recent days report that the Taliban are forcibly conscripting young men and boys. Some refugees cite forced conscription as their reason for fleeing Afghanistan. In addition, there are reports that Taliban forced conscription is also taking place in refugee camps inside Afghan borders.

• A 20-year old male refugee from Taloqan, newly arrived in a refugee camp in Pakistan, said: "We came three days ago... the Taliban came collecting young boys for the front line, after the American bombs. My mother was afraid. They are telling everyone, very young boys, that they must come to fight, defend our country against America. I did not want to fight against America." (As reported by the Washington Post, October 30)

• There were reports from Mazar-I-Sharif that the Taliban were forcibly conscripting young men, setting a quota of two men per neighborhood, and heavily fining those who refused. (As reported by the Chicago Tribune, October 30)

• Many of the refugees crossing into Pakistan at Chaman over the past few weeks have told the UN refugee agency (UNHCR) that they fear being forced to fight for the Taliban. There are consistent reports of forced conscription. (As reported by the UNHCR)

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:30 PM

Documenting Taliban Abuses

• Several non-government organizations maintain web sites documenting Taliban abuses.

• The web site of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (www.rawa.fancymarketing.net) maintains a gallery of still photos and video clips documenting massacres, beatings, and executions by the Taliban. The documentary photos and videos were clandestinely made by Afghan women to provide evidence of Taliban atrocities.

• Several human rights organizations maintain web sites documenting human rights abuses by the Taliban and other factions in the Afghan conflict. Human Rights Watch (www.hrw.org) and Amnesty International (www.amnesty.org) provide extensive documentation of these abuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:31 PM

All good propoganda must have a grain of truth. In this case it is likley there is a whole bag of sand to back up the claim.

I have photos of a toddler dressed in an explosive vest costume atop his father's shoulders while attending a Palestinian demonstration.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:32 PM

bb: please share your own opinions with us once in a while. Pages and pages of cut-and-paste gets old after a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:32 PM

This story is from our news.com.au network Source: Reuters

Fleeing Taliban 'use children as shields'
By correspondents in Kabul
February 14, 2007

TALIBAN fighters used children as human shields to flee heavy fighting this week during an operation by foreign and Afghan forces to clear rebels from around a key hydrolectric dam, NATO said today.
The Taliban have used human shields before, but never children, local residents say.

The fighting occurred during Operation Kryptonite on Monday, an offensive to clear insurgents from the Kajaki Dam area in southern Helmand province to allow repairs to its power plants and the installation of extra capacity.

"During this action ... Taliban extremists resorted to the use of human shields. Specifically, using local Afghan children to cover as they escaped out of the area," Colonel Tom Collins, a spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) said in Kabul.

NATO and foreign forces ran into heavy small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire during the clash, but suffered no casualties, Col Collins said.

The fighting occurred in an area where 700 mainly foreign fighters, including Chechens, Pakistanis and Uzbeks, arrived from Pakistan this week to reinforce Taliban guerrillas targeting the dam, according to local officials.

Earler today, NATO said it had killed a Taliban leader in a pre-dawn airstrike between the dam and the nearby town of Musa Qala, to the west, which the rebels have held for 13 days.

NATO said there were no civilian casualties, but local tribal leader Haji Sultan said several villagers were killed.

Helmand Governor Asadullah Wafa would not comment.

The Kajaki dam has seen major fighting in recent weeks between the Taliban and NATO forces, mainly British and Dutch.

NATO-led forces have been conducting operations in the area for several months to allow reconstruction on the dam and the power transmission lines to boost output, after fighting halted repair and development work last year.

The Taliban cannot destroy the dam, which would also flood a large area of the Helmand Valley, but its tactics are aimed at making it too unsafe for work to go ahead.

Yesterday, two Afghan army officers and and a police officer were killed in a joint attack with NATO forces on a bomb-making operation in southern Uruzgan province, just to the north of Musa Qala and Kajaki.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:36 PM

Oh dear, here we go again!

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:37 PM

Good lord, bb. Have you never heard of using a stiletto rather than a sledge hammer? You would probably find more people paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:39 PM

Art,

When something is claimed to be propaganda, it seems reasonable to present the documented facts that support a belief thet the event is real. If I do not, I am told that "it never happened" or "No-one would do that."

I stated my opinion in my first post.

And I do note that the originator of this thread presented nothing to give us reason to doubt any of the article, except for his own disbelief.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:40 PM

When I encounter claims made with no support, designed to have people believe or disbelieve without any evidence either way, a sledgehammer is sometyimes the proper tool.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: 282RA
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 02:36 PM

Bruce posted a lot of garbage about kids being used as shields-which is not the subject of this thread. Another post was about Vietnam when we are talking abouit Afghanistan and the Taliban. Another post was about Sierra Leone.

Bruce also pasted two articles of the Yaluna using 6 year olds as suicide bombers but they appear to be the ame story dated two years apart!

The rest were about 13 and 14 year olds being recruited as soldiers which is, again, off topic.

IfYou want facts, how about the statement that this boy's cannot be independently verified?

It's propaganda, folks. And when a nation at war believes its own propaganda, it loses.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 02:44 PM

of course when a US airstrike happpens to kill 7 Afghan children like last week, thats different.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 02:49 PM

"Bruce posted a lot of garbage about kids being used as shields-which is not the subject of this thread. "

YOU stated that it was unreasonable- I was showing it was not.

"Bruce also pasted two articles of the Yaluna using 6 year olds as suicide bombers but they appear to be the ame story dated two years apart!"

Really? I guess you can't trust those English and Australian newspapers.

"IfYou want facts, how about the statement that this boy's cannot be independently verified?"

Who would you ask? The Afghan leader of the village, who brought the kid? The kid himself, as quoted in the article? The people who listened to him?

Have you even TRIED to find any verification?

If not, HOWW DO YOU KNOW IT IS NOT TRUE?????

"It's propaganda, folks."

Well, that proves a lot.
Oh, I guess YOU have a direct line to God and do not need to look at any sources of information.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 04:38 PM

>>YOU stated that it was unreasonable- I was showing it was not.<<

Bruce, I said it was not likely that 6-year-olds are being employed as suicide bombers by the Taliban. I never said anything beyond that. Even if I was going to strap a vest to a 6-year-old, why would I give him the detonator???? I would keep it and detonate it myself as soon as the soldiers got near him. You can't depend on a 6-year-old to do that for you and surely terrorists are smart enough to know that.

I'd like to know which soldiers walked up and defused his vest because IRL no one would have gone near him--would you?--because no one could know how that vest is rigged up. It's terrible to say but you'd almost certainly have to shoot the kid to detonate the vest from a safe distance because you can't go near him.

>>Really? I guess you can't trust those English and Australian newspapers.<<

Doesn't make any difference, Bruce. You gave us two stories about the Taliban using 6-year-olds as suicide bombers and both stories were so similar--right down to the statement that they are doing this because they are running out of recruits--only a fool would discount it. It's all one big media, in case you didn't know that. All countries feed from the same trough because they really have no choice. There's only a relative handful of embedded reporters over there to get stories from. They are the perfect propagandists if they decide to be.

>>Who would you ask? The Afghan leader of the village, who brought the kid? The kid himself, as quoted in the article? The people who listened to him?<<

Well, Bruce, we all know that kids never lie. And we all know that kids can't be coaxed into saying things that aren't true. We all know that kids would never tell a tall tale to get attention. We all know these things just don't happen so therefore I can see that taking this kid's story at face value is a no-brainer.

>>Have you even TRIED to find any verification?<<

Since I don't believe the story, why should I? That's the job of those who believe the story. And they admit that they cannot verify it.

>>If not, HOWW DO YOU KNOW IT IS NOT TRUE?????<<

Because if it were true, we'd be hearing upside down and backwards about 6-year-old bombers and we don't. In point of fact, we have only one such story--this one. The 2005 one appears to be the same story. The story as it is told is not credible. And if a 6-year-old can foil these guys, why can't we??

>>Well, that proves a lot.
Oh, I guess YOU have a direct line to God and do not need to look at any sources of information.<<

I looked at yours. Let's go over it again, Bruce. You gave me stories of 12, 13 and 14 year olds being recruited. That's not what we were talking about. You gave me stories of children being used as shields. Again, that is not what we are discussing here. You gave me stories that had not occurred in Afghanistan nor were perpetrated by the Taliban. Once again, that puts you off-topic.

You gave me two stories of the Taliban using 6-year-olds as suiciders but the stories are so similar right down to using the same rhetoric and yet were two years apart suuposedly written by two different reporters in two different countries. Doesn't seem right, does it, Bruce? I mean, even you have to admit that doesn't seem right.

Because it's propaganda and only a fool would deny the US is largely fighting a propaganda war in the Middle East and the problem with that is that, inevitably, the propaganda ends up convincing the ones who initially put it out there. And that is what is happening here.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 05:59 PM

I agree fully with 282RA. He says more clearly than I could my reaction.

Besides, bb, in my opinion it is not possible to have a discussion between adults when one of them keeps lobbing material. It reminds me of when I was a kid and I and my brothers had acorn fights.

One gathered a bucket of acorns and worked one's way from behind tree to tree to pepper one's opponents. Inevitably as a bucket emptied, one of us would start throwing handfuls of acorns instead of choosing targets and taking aim.

The only good thing about it is that you'd know the other side couldn't sustain itself indefinitely- he would run out of ammuniition.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:41 PM

yeh the taliban are still observably asssholes, and you appear to be standing up for them.

Why? Would you like to live under their horrible regime?

does it bloody matter, what is said about such a gang of complete shits? Do you want to do a David Irving job? Is he a role model?


the sooner they are pulverised, and something recognisably decent and humane (in intention at least) is put in its place the better.

there were still Nazi enthusiasts beating the drum for Hitler way into the 1950's in Germany. is that how you see you role in history. cos thats how its shaping up.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: 282RA
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 09:17 PM

It has nothing to do with liking the Taliban. Had Bush only concerned himself with Afghanistan, I'd be one of his biggest supporters.

The problem is that when you rely on propaganda to fight a war you become seduced by your own bullshit and you cannot win a war being seduced by your own bullshit.

It's like writing a novel and then convincing yourself the story actually happened. How can that possibly benefit you to believe in a self-delusion?

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 10:12 PM

Are members of the Taliban capable of recruiting or coercing young children to do their dirty work? Yes.

Is the Bush administration capable of fabricating or exagerating a story for its propaganda value? Yes.

Score: Assholes - Zero, Other Assholes - Nothing

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 10:16 PM

It doesn't take force to convince little kids of almost anything. Look at religion! Hee hee!

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 01:01 AM

"Maj. John Thomas, a spokesman for NATO's International Security Assistance Force, said he was "a bit skeptical" about Juma's story at first, "but everything I've heard makes me more and more comfortable."

That a pretty convuluted statement.

Why would it make him comfortable if the boy was telling the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 04:10 AM

How about him being, "more and more comfortable" about releasing the story?

Terrorists using children - of course they do and have done so in the past - Aden and in Iraq recently where two young children were put in a car, to be used as a car bomb. The thinking there was that the police and troops would not expect the car to blow seeing two small children inside it, the adults parked the car, got out of it, walked a safe distance then detonated it with the children inside it - not propaganda 282RA - it happened exactly as stated - nice people eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 05:37 AM

And you don't have to go to the Middle East to find such examples in our times. I know a lady State Judge in the US, let's call her Y, currently in her 60s, who as a child was used by her IRA-supporting father as a "mule" (or a "dove" as they referred to her at the time) to carry explosives on her body between Glasgow and Ireland. All this without her having any understanding of what she was doing (it was just a "game"), and her own mother was oblivious to this also. Y was 10 when her mother found out and put a stop to it.

Callousness and the willingness to sacrifice others, even kin, is not a prerogative of any race, religion, or nationality.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,Keith A of hertford
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 05:39 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6731389.stm

This is a BBC report about Taleban taking children to fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:16 AM

As Bee-dubya-ell says, we just don't know. It is neither ridiculous at ther first glance as 282RA claims nor is it beyond belief that the story could be an invention.

Military use of children (Wikipedia)

The Palestinians have used suicide bombers from the age of 12 onwards.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:20 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6768801.stm

This report about attacks on school teachers and children by Taliban

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:51 AM

If you read the report in my first link, you will have to agree that the story referred to in the thread title may be propaganda, but it is not ridiculous, and may well be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: 282RA
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:56 AM

It's getting humorous that I'm asking for a credible report of the Taliban using 6 year olds as suicide bombers and all I get is stories about the IRA and children being used as lures.

Do you folks understand what I'm asking for?

I think at this point I have proven my case. It's propaganda. We are fighting a war by lying to ourselves about who and what the enemy is and never realizing it is us.

We are doomed to lose if we cannot defeat the enemy with the truth. If we must lie to do it then we are our own worst enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM

282AR,

if you reread your first post you'll see that you have asked a lot of very different questions. Five altogether. So you should accept that some people choose to respond to a question you have asked even if you have already forgotten that you have asked that question.

Take this question for instance: When have we EVER seen small children used as suicide bombers???

To this question, answers from completely different countries and times are of course relevant. You're 9.56 post only shows that you have forgotten that you have asked this question. We cannot read your mind on which particular question you'd rather not read responses.

As for a credible report all we have now is more or less based on the same AP report. Any link to another newspaper would only be a link to another rendering of the same report.

You have not proven your case BTW, for you have not added anything new to your first post. As I read the other posts everyone here accepts that it is possible that the information is propaganda. But unlike you, the big majority here also thinks it is possible that the story is true. Without more information I consider this the only rational response.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:45 AM

I'm asking for a credible report of the Taliban using 6 year olds as suicide bombers....

Seems to me that what you're asking for is a credible report of the Taliban using another six-year-old as suicide bomber. The fact that such a report may not exist doesn't disprove the reported incident. Everything has to happen a first time, you know. You're correct that the lack of similar verifiable incidents sheds suspicion upon the story's veracity, but it doesn't disprove it.

It's also possible that the story is propaganda, but its source is not within US/NATO forces at all. The whole thing may be a put-up job by anti-Taliban Afghanis who've fabricated it for their own purposes. It's possible that US/NATO troops have been duped into believing somebody else's propaganda.

In case you haven't noticed, there's a lot of shit that goes on in that part of the world that doesn't make a damned bit of sense. (Like the fact that the Taliban outlawed poppy production as anti-Islamic when it was in power, but is now financing itself from that same poppy production. Now there's an unwavering moral stance for ya.)

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: The PA
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:53 AM

This may have already been said, but surely we would not know if they have used childred and suicide bombers, there wouldnt be much of them left.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:11 PM

Another thing... The Taliban bigshot quoted as saying that using a child in such a manner would be un-Islamic may well be sincere in speaking for himself. But are we to believe that all Taliban members hold to precisely the same set of beliefs and interpretations? I doubt the Taliban is so monolithic that "rogue elements" hatching such a scheme on their own would be out of the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:22 PM

I cannot state, from my own knowledge, that the story is true. But I do NOT see any evidence that it IS propaganda, as was claimed at the top of this thread. Nor have I seen any valid reason to KNOW that it was propaganda.

It may or may not be a true story, in this case. But to claim that "This is the biggest load of garbage I've read in a while." is over the top, and has not been justified by any of the comments here.

Quite the opposite.

YOU are claiming that it is propaganda: the burden of proof THAT IT IS FALSE is upon you. I will listen to whatever you care to present- BUT I do not accept your OPINION ( which you are certainly entitled to) as FACTUAL evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: 282RA
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

>>Take this question for instance: When have we EVER seen small children used as suicide bombers???<<

I was talking about in Afghanistan. Why would I care about the IRA??? The US is not involved in that stupid stuff and never will be and frankly it holds no interest for me. Did I EVER mention the IRA??? Sierra Leone? NO. I posted one report and that report was from Afghanistan, was it not?

>>Seems to me that what you're asking for is a credible report of the Taliban using another six-year-old as suicide bomber.<<

We have the one I myself posted here. It is not a credible story and the opening line is that the Taliban is getting so desperate that they are resorting to using young children. So I'm asking, where are these other reports?? 12, 13 and 14 does not count. These are not young children. Children that age have fought in plenty of wars in the past. Children that age have committed rape and murder. Children that age have built bombs. Children like that can be trained to fight. Six year olds won't work. If they did, we should have dozens of such reports. You put a vest on a kid that age and hand him a detonator, you deserve what is about to happen.

>>It's also possible that the story is propaganda, but its source is not within US/NATO forces at all.<<

So what? Have you already forgotten that our military PAID Iraqi journalists to print favorable stories that did not appear to come from the American govt?

>>This may have already been said, but surely we would not know if they have used childred and suicide bombers, there wouldnt be much of them left.<<

With that logic, we would never know if they've EVER used suicide bombers because there's NEVER anything of them left. But we DO know they've done that. And we definitely WOULD know if small children were used this way.

We are using propaganda to paint our enemy in the worst possible light. In so doing, we have convinced ONLY OURSELVES that this enemy is as bad as we have painted him. IOW we are engaged with an enemy that exists in our minds. What is to stop a soldier from shooting a young kid with any kind of vest on because he's afraid it might be explosive?

Slowly but surely, we are driving ourselves insane with fear and loathing of our own making. We are painting an enemy so savage that all we feel is hate for them and the problem is we cannot distinguish them from the rest of the populace. So we just hate every Arab face we see. So when another bomb takes out a soldier or two, we go on shooting rampages, killing any Arab person we come across--and it's already happened. Our propaganda is convincing us that all Arabs are untrustworthy and have no respect for human life so who cares if we kill them ourselves?

Our propaganda is causing us to fear the entire populace of the Middle East to the point where we can't bring ourselves to talk to them and have no desire to win their hearts and minds. It is a recipe for disaster. We are defeating the very thing we claim we're trying to accomplish over there.

This entire war was built on propaganda and has virtually no substance to it. We are fighting in a hostile universe we have created within our minds. The only ones who think we're doing anything good is us because we believed our own bullshit. The rest of the world sees it for what it is--another aggressor nation, another occupying army, rationalizing that it is doing the right thing. And they have the same contempt for us that we heap other countries that have done what we are now doing and who propagandized it just as we have done and who, as a result, lost--just as we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:43 PM

"It is not a credible story "

You have yet to establish that this is true- yet you base all your arguements upon it.

IF I accept you are right, then you are, logically, right.

IF I do not accept APRIORI that you are correct, you have NOT given any evidence that what you state about this being propaganda is true.


"Our propaganda is causing us to fear the entire populace of the Middle East to the point where we can't bring ourselves to talk to them and have no desire to win their hearts and minds"

This may well be true, BUT YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN that this IS propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:51 PM

Your arguement that using propaganda is a bad idea is certainly valid, and I agree with it.

It is your unsubstantiated claim that, because YOU think this is propaganda, it IS, that I am argueing with.

You have not yet shown that

1. this IS propaganda

2. the source is the Bush administration, as you have claimed.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 03:53 PM

I sent you a link to the story of Taleban enlisting kids of 11 to 15.
This report was about events in one village.
There are many hundreds of such villages and many bands within the Taleban.
It is not ridiculous to suggest that there are likely to be individual cases among all those possibilities where the age range is exceeded.
If many are being taken aged 11+, it is not ridiculous to suppose that a few may be taken age 6+.
Not proof, but reasonable enough for serious consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:20 PM

We have known for a long time that there are boy-soldiers being used in many countries but especially Africa. We also know that children are being recruited as suicide bombers with the blessing of their families. This is not news.

It might be more interesting if you compared the number of children in Afghanistan who are used as suicide bombers to the number of Afghani children who have been killed by the U.S. and NATO forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Joe_F
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:47 PM

"But unfortunately the truth about atrocities is far worse than that they are lied about and made into propaganda. The truth is that they happen." -- George Orwell (1942)