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BS: Ridiculous propaganda

beardedbruce 16 Jul 07 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,dianavan 07 Jul 07 - 03:54 AM
beardedbruce 06 Jul 07 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,dianavan 06 Jul 07 - 12:42 PM
beardedbruce 06 Jul 07 - 06:40 AM
Peace 06 Jul 07 - 01:18 AM
Peace 06 Jul 07 - 01:16 AM
Little Hawk 05 Jul 07 - 09:09 PM
GUEST,jaded 05 Jul 07 - 09:02 PM
pdq 05 Jul 07 - 01:52 PM
beardedbruce 05 Jul 07 - 12:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 07 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,dianavan 29 Jun 07 - 07:40 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jun 07 - 12:13 PM
pdq 29 Jun 07 - 11:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 07 - 11:16 AM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Jun 07 - 10:57 AM
George Papavgeris 29 Jun 07 - 10:11 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jun 07 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,dianavan 29 Jun 07 - 01:18 AM
Joe_F 28 Jun 07 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,petr 28 Jun 07 - 08:15 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 Jun 07 - 04:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 07 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,dianavan 28 Jun 07 - 03:10 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jun 07 - 11:57 PM
Joe_F 27 Jun 07 - 09:47 PM
GUEST,dianavan 27 Jun 07 - 08:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 07 - 03:53 PM
beardedbruce 27 Jun 07 - 12:51 PM
beardedbruce 27 Jun 07 - 12:43 PM
282RA 27 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM
beardedbruce 27 Jun 07 - 12:22 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 27 Jun 07 - 12:11 PM
The PA 27 Jun 07 - 10:53 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 27 Jun 07 - 10:45 AM
Wolfgang 27 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM
282RA 27 Jun 07 - 09:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 07 - 06:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 07 - 06:20 AM
Wolfgang 27 Jun 07 - 06:16 AM
GUEST,Keith A of hertford 27 Jun 07 - 05:39 AM
George Papavgeris 27 Jun 07 - 05:37 AM
Teribus 27 Jun 07 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,dianavan 27 Jun 07 - 01:01 AM
Mrrzy 26 Jun 07 - 10:16 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 26 Jun 07 - 10:12 PM
282RA 26 Jun 07 - 09:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 26 Jun 07 - 06:41 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:08 AM

Pardon for child 'suicide bomber'

Story Highlights
Afghan President Karzai pardons 14-year-old would-be suicide bomber

Boy was caught wearing a suicide vest intended to blow up a provincial governor

Boy had been sent by father to a madrassa to learn the Koran
   
KABUL, Afghanistan (Reuters) -- A 14-year-old would-be suicide bomber from Pakistan, caught while on a mission to blow up an Afghan provincial governor, was pardoned on Sunday by President Hamid Karzai.


Afghanistan's president, Hamid Karzai, pardoned 14-year-old Rafiqullah in a ceremony on Sunday in Kabul.

Taliban insurgents and their al Qaeda allies have launched a wave of suicide attacks against Afghan, NATO and U.S.-led forces in the last two years, seeking to show the government and its Western allies are incapable of providing security.

Most of the victims are Afghan civilians.

The first whiskers of a moustache on his top lip, Rafiqullah stood to one side of the Afghan president, his father, with a full beard, stood to the other, at a ceremony in the capital on Sunday.

Rafiqullah's father, a poor tradesman from South Waziristan in Pakistan, had sent his son to a religious school, or madrassa, to learn the Koran. Later, when he asked where his son was, the teachers there brushed him off, he said.

Then last month, the 14-year-old was caught wearing a suicide vest on a motorbike in the eastern Afghan city of Khost.

"Today we are facing a hard fact, that is a Muslim child was sent to madrassa to learn Islamic subjects, but the enemies of Afghanistan misled him towards suicide and prepared him to die and kill," Karzai told reporters, his arm on the boy's shoulder.

The boy and father bowed their heads as Karzai spoke.

"His family thought their child was learning Islamic studies. That is not his fault, nor his father's, the enemies of Islam wanted him to destroy his life and those of other Muslims. I pardon him and wish him a good life," the president said.

"You are now free and forgiven by the people of Afghanistan," he said turning to the boy and smiling.

Walking to the gates of the presidential palace with his father, Rafiqullah said: "I am very happy that I am pardoned and released."

Afghanistan has accused Pakistan of harboring Taliban and al Qaeda militants and trying to destabilize its neighbor, a charge the Islamabad government denies.

Kabul officials say many of the suicide bombers and Taliban fighters are recruited from impressionable youths in Pakistan's madrassas and sent across the border to kill.

Asked if he had a message for Pakistan, Karzai said: "I have a message, it is a message of peace, forgiveness, a message pleading for better relationships, not cheating the children and encouraging them into terrorism and suicide." E-mail to a friend


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 03:54 AM

Actually, bb, I am not Quaker. In fact, I would kill in self defense or to protect my children. I would not, however, kill children who are not attacking me. To justify killing children who are already being abused by the enemy is hard to fathom. I don't think the "greatest good" philosophy applies to killing. If so, Hitler could have justified the holocaust because he thought it was for the "greatest good." Morality is subjective but I definitely draw the line at killing innocent children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:54 PM

"According to my religion, its immoral to kill anyone, especially little children. "


So, in the case where a little child is being used to prevent you from stopping a nuclear device being used on, say, Mexico City ( lots MORE little children there) YOU would say it is immoral to kill the child out of neccesity to save the larger number of other children?

And I was not talking religion, just MY feelings on morality.


If someone attacks you, YOUR morality would require you to NOT take that person's life, even if it cost you your own, or YOUR child's. Is that the case? I have a LOT of respect for those (Quakers et al) who can actually live that way consistantly, but it is NOT part of MY belief system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:42 PM

"...while the deaths of innocents when one is attacking a military target, while extremely regretable and to be prevented when possible, is not immoral."

You're right, we do not agree. I think the war in Iraq is immoral and nothing justifies the death of children.

To draw a fine line such as you have done, only convinces me that you think that you are in a position to dictate moral circumstances. According to your religion, it may be moral to kill little children under some circumstances. According to my religion, its immoral to kill anyone, especially little children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:40 AM

Peace,

"Some of us ARE acting morally about the actions of Canada."

I agree 100%.

MOST of us are acting morally about the actions of the US. The problem is always WHAT is the moral action- THAT depends on the person making the judgement.

I happen to think the deliberate targeting of innocents, and use of children as shields in a military conflict is immoral, while the deaths of innocents when one is attacking a military target, while extremely regretable and to be prevented when possible, is not immoral. Dianavan does not, it seems, agree with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 01:18 AM

"But I guess that it is far easier to complain about the actions of the US than to act morally about your own country."

Some of us ARE acting morally about the actions of Canada. However, that is no reason not to observe and act morally with regard to US actions in the world. Is it now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 01:16 AM

http://www.bacanada.org/whoweare.html

Gie us a hand, BB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 09:09 PM

Those two parties have a long, loooong history of planning and backing the same wars. Anything they say to the contrary is merely opportunistic pandering for votes whenever they think they can get them. They serve the same corporate masters, and they back the same hidden agendas. The only respect in which they truly differ is that they would far rather see themselves get elected than their partisan opponents, and they will do any dirty thing possible to see that it happens that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,jaded
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 09:02 PM

Read the first post, that's all. The Bush administration? The Democrats voted to not just continue the wars but to SURGE them. This is now a Democrat war, if you're going to blame it on one of the two branches of the single-party system in America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 01:52 PM

Red Mosque leader attempts to flee in burka
Declan Walsh in Islamabad
Wednesday July 4, 2007
Guardian Unlimited

 
The leader of a pro-Taliban mosque was captured hiding under a burka as he tried to slip through a tightening siege tonight, while hundreds of his radical followers reportedly surrendered to the Pakistani government.

Maulana Abdul Aziz was discovered by a policewoman as she searched students fleeing Lal Masjid, or the Red Mosque, in central Islamabad, where a two-day showdown with the government has killed 16 people and wounded 150.

Local television showed the bearded preacher being bundled into a police car, his face uncovered over a flowing dark cloak. The government claimed that another 1,000 militants, including many woman students, had also abandoned the mosque, enticed by promises of safe passage and 5,000 rupee (£41) in pocket money.

But the siege has not collapsed. Heavily armed militants - estimated to be between 1,500 and 4,000 in number - remained holed up inside the mosque, vowing to become martyrs and fight to the bitter end. Sporadic gunfire erupted as evening fell.

Abdul Aziz's brother, Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi, remains at large, offering to negotiate with the government but saying that talks were "going nowhere".

Lal Masjid shot to public prominence six months ago after indoctrinated students launched an anti-vice campaign that targeted music shop owners and suspected prostitutes in a wealthy Islamabad neighbourhood, just a few streets from the diplomatic quarter and the supreme court.

Abdul Aziz, a radical preacher famed for his fiery Friday sermons, was the spiritual leader of the movement, while his brother Ghazi, a university educated cleric who speaks fluent English, emerged as its main spokesman.

The brothers are openly sympathetic to al-Qaida and boast of having met Osama bin Laden, whom Abdul Aziz has compared to the biblical figure of Abraham. They have also boasted of having hundreds of suicide bombers at their disposal.

Their vigilante campaign -- which involved abducting suspected prostitutes and burning pyres of Hollywood movies - severely embarrassed Pakistan's president, General Pervez Musharraf. But he did nothing, saying that a violent showdown could spark countrywide violence.

The final straw may have been the abduction of seven Chinese employees of a massage parlour, which the militants termed a brothel, last week. The Chinese were released within hours but their government - a key ally of Pakistan - demanded greater security.

After an attack on a government checkpoint on Tuesday, the authorities finally hit back. A five-hour gun battle outside the mosque left 16 people dead. Then early today hundreds of soldiers rolled in, cutting off the electricity and imposing strict curfew on the surrounding neighbourhood.

Tonight parts of central Islamabad resembled a war zone, with machinegun wielding troops patrolling the streets and helicopter gunships buzzing overhead. The neighbourhood around the mosque was isolated by thick coils of barbed wire.
"They have no options but to surrender," said Javed Iqbal Cheema, a government spokesman. "The government is not into dialogue with these clerics."

Gen Musharraf seems intent on flushing out as many students as possible before considering a violent assault on the hard core. "The others want to be martyrs. But I don't want to die," said one young man who escaped today.

Pakistan's information minister, Muhammad Ali Durrani, said only "a few hundred" students were left, although most estimates were higher.

Meanwhile hundreds of students made their way home, escorted by relieved relatives. "We are so relieved, my mother is very worried," said Ziauddin, who had travelled 19 hours by bus from Gilgit to retrieve his 20-year-old sister, Qoresha.

The girl, who had just been released from police custody after escaping in an ambulance, was ambivalent about the experience. "Abdul Aziz and his brother are good men. Whether their actions are good or bad, only they can tell," she said from under a black burka.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 12:01 PM

Fears children are mosque shields

Highlights
Fears grow children are human shields at mosque besieged by Pakistan army

Pakistani forces demolished the Red Mosque's front walls, sources say

At least 24 people have been killed in two days of fighting

Police set up security perimeter around mosque compound last week
   
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- Fears are growing that women and children are being used as human shields at a mosque besieged for two days by Pakistani government troops, as hundreds of militant students ignored a plea from their captured leader to surrender.

Pakistan's Deputy Information Minister Tariq Azim Khan said the few students who had quit the Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque on Thursday said those inside the mosque believed security forces would try to keep casualties to a minimum.

"A large number of women and children are being held hostage by armed men in a room," Khan told a news conference, adding that the brother of the captured cleric was hiding in a basement with 25 "women hostages."

"Yes, they're using them as human shields, because the people who have come out, they told us that they're telling women and children not to worry because as long you're here forces will not attack us," he said according to Reuters. Watch as the mosque standoff continues »

Cleric Maulana Abdul Aziz made his appeal on state-run TV shortly after he was arrested while trying to slip out of the mosque, disguised in a burqa, the head-to-toe covering worn by some Muslim women.

"For students to stay put at the mosque will only be damaging ... they should either leave, if they can, or surrender," he said.

Heavy explosions and an exchange of gunfire could be heard Thursday evening outside the mosque.

In addition, Pakistani military helicopter gunships were seen circling overhead.

Intelligence sources say nearly 1,000 people remained holed up inside the mosque.

Of those, at least 50 are well-armed hard-liners, according to Pakistan's interior minister. He said negotiations with the students have ended and reiterated demands for their surrender.

More than 1,200 of the students have already surrendered. Earlier in the day, Aziz told state-run TV that about 850 students remained inside -- including children, around 600 women and some 14 men armed with Kalashnikov sub-machineguns.

Pakistani forces have demolished the Red Mosque's front walls and warned students by loudspeaker they had one last chance to surrender before a full attack took place, intelligence and military sources told CNN.

Heavy gunfire from both sides in the conflict, punctuated by loud explosions and the frequent firing of tear gas, erupted shortly before 4 a.m. Thursday (2300 GMT Wednesday).

At least 24 people, including two members of the security forces and one journalist, have been killed in the two days of battles.

Tensions have been simmering between police and the students at the mosque, who are blamed for a string of recent kidnappings of civilians, Chinese nationals and Pakistani police.

The government has been investigating the activities of the mosque, whose students who are demanding sharia, or Islamic law, be instituted in Islamabad.

As part of the clampdown on the mosque compound -- which includes several madrassas, or religious schools -- police set up a security perimeter around the mosque compound last week.

The violence began Tuesday when about 150 militant students attacked a police checkpoint close to the mosque. Police fired tear gas and the students fought back with sticks and guns.

Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf earlier announced he would give 5,000 rupees (US $83) to any student who surrendered.

Brigadier Gen. Tareen of the Pakistan Rangers, head of the military operation at the mosque, said the older students inside were using young boys and girls as human shields.

"We will establish writ of the government at any cost and these people don't have any other choice other than to surrender," he said.

The Pakistan Rangers, a paramilitary group, are conducting the operation with the help of the police and the army. The area around the mosque is totally sealed, and nobody is allowed to enter nor leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 04:51 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6257594.stm
This is about radicalising children in Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:40 PM

Here's what you can do to stop the export of asbestos. Many Canadians are concerned and are trying to educate the public and pressure the govt. to put firm controls on the mining industry. You too, bb, can join the effort to stop this practice.

http://www.bacanada.org/main.html

You are the one claiming some kind of moral high ground for accidental death, not me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 12:13 PM

"There is no moral high ground when children die as the result of the actions of adults. To claim some kind of moral high ground is to deny any responsibility.

Its creepy to think that some people think they are not accountable for their actions. Who do you think you are? Is this because God chose you to carry out his wicked will? Listen carefully. I think you may be confusing God for Satan. "



Of course, I am still waiting for you to invest the same level of effort in criticising Canada for it's exporting of asbestos to the Fas East, which is estimated to kill ( over the next 30 years) about 3 million people, as you do about the US killing a few hundreds of thousands in a war.

But I guess that it is far easier to complain about the actions of the US than to act morally about your own country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 11:44 AM

" if you ever get a war without blood and gore, well I'll be the first to go" ~ Draft Dogder Rag - Phil Ochs


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 11:16 AM

Dianavan I agree with you partly.
It is a filthy buisness.
There is only the choice between evils and the hope that you choose the lesser.
Many French civillians including children were killed by the allies in summer 1944.
The French accepted it without bitterness because it was the price for destroying the greater evil of Natzi occupation, with all the suffering and death that went with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 10:57 AM

QUOTE
"Why would I care about the IRA??? The US is not involved in that stupid stuff and never will be"
UNQUOTE

Ah - but it was! Large amounts of the funding necessary to buy the weapons were raised in the USA and forwarded to the IRA by large numbers of US citizens.... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 10:11 AM

282RA, you might have been thinking about Afghanistan, the report you quotes undoubtedly was about Afghanistan, but you asked the question generically, free of geographical limitations (otherwise, you could have easily added "there" at the end of your question, to make it specific). And rightly so - because if it can happen any place, it can certainly happen in Afghanistan (or would you dispute that?). So it's hard to understand your subsequent wriggling.

You wanted to make a point, clearly. But that point has not been proven by you. Rather, it has been disproven by the weight of evidence against it, posted in this thread. I'd give up about here, if I were you, and wait for a better example to use for your point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:43 AM

"How about,
"a comparison of the number of Afghani children who have been killed by the Taliban and Al-Queda"(you can include those used as human shields), "to the number killed by U.S. and NATO forces," would be the basis for some meaningful discussion."

That is a far more meaningful number. Do you happen to know what those numbers are?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 01:18 AM

Alright.

How about,
"a comparison of the number of Afghani children who have been killed by the Taliban and Al-Queda"(you can include those used as human shields), "to the number killed by U.S. and NATO forces," would be the basis for some meaningful discussion.

I still do not believe that the deaths of children by U.S. and NATO forces are unintentional when war is an intentional act. There is no moral high ground when children die as the result of the actions of adults. To claim some kind of moral high ground is to deny any responsibility.

Its creepy to think that some people think they are not accountable for their actions. Who do you think you are? Is this because God chose you to carry out his wicked will? Listen carefully. I think you may be confusing God for Satan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 11:26 PM

Throwing a bomb is bad,
Dropping a bomb is good;
Terror, no need to add,
Depends on who's wearing the hood.

-- Roger Woddis, "Ethics for Everyman" (1971)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:15 PM

sure..
an airstrike from a safe distance with the push of a button that kills a number of civilians, children included - while blaming the other side for using civilians as human shields - is much more morally superior than using children as suicide bombers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

"If you think that war is moral, you might consider the death of Iraqi children collateral damage. I'm simply asking for a comparison. Dead is dead. To me there is no difference. Children are killed by both sides. Regardless of how it is done, it is immoral. Only a sanctimonious prick would try to take the moral high ground when it is children who are dying."

Yet you do NOT ask for a comparison of the number of Afghani children who have been killed by the Taliban and Al-Queda, as well. THAT is what should be compared to the number killed by U.S. and NATO forces.

But you seem to give tacit approval to the deliberate use of children as human shields, by your insistance on bringing up only those killed by one side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 04:26 AM

"Why would I care about the IRA??? The US is not involved in that stupid stuff and never will be and frankly it holds no interest for me."

Yeh sure the IRA got all their arms from Zulu land ...

Which flipping planet are you from

I take it 28 is your IQ and 2 your reading age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:17 AM

No difference morally between deliderately murdering a child, and causing such a death unintentionally?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:10 AM

If you think that war is moral, you might consider the death of Iraqi children collateral damage. I'm simply asking for a comparison. Dead is dead. To me there is no difference. Children are killed by both sides. Regardless of how it is done, it is immoral. Only a sanctimonious prick would try to take the moral high ground when it is children who are dying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:57 PM

Why would that be interesting to you, dianavan? Are U.S. and NATO forces deliberately trying to kill Afghani children, as the Taliban seems to be doing? You do think there is a moral equivalence implicated in your question?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Joe_F
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:47 PM

"But unfortunately the truth about atrocities is far worse than that they are lied about and made into propaganda. The truth is that they happen." -- George Orwell (1942)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:20 PM

We have known for a long time that there are boy-soldiers being used in many countries but especially Africa. We also know that children are being recruited as suicide bombers with the blessing of their families. This is not news.

It might be more interesting if you compared the number of children in Afghanistan who are used as suicide bombers to the number of Afghani children who have been killed by the U.S. and NATO forces.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 03:53 PM

I sent you a link to the story of Taleban enlisting kids of 11 to 15.
This report was about events in one village.
There are many hundreds of such villages and many bands within the Taleban.
It is not ridiculous to suggest that there are likely to be individual cases among all those possibilities where the age range is exceeded.
If many are being taken aged 11+, it is not ridiculous to suppose that a few may be taken age 6+.
Not proof, but reasonable enough for serious consideration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:51 PM

Your arguement that using propaganda is a bad idea is certainly valid, and I agree with it.

It is your unsubstantiated claim that, because YOU think this is propaganda, it IS, that I am argueing with.

You have not yet shown that

1. this IS propaganda

2. the source is the Bush administration, as you have claimed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:43 PM

"It is not a credible story "

You have yet to establish that this is true- yet you base all your arguements upon it.

IF I accept you are right, then you are, logically, right.

IF I do not accept APRIORI that you are correct, you have NOT given any evidence that what you state about this being propaganda is true.


"Our propaganda is causing us to fear the entire populace of the Middle East to the point where we can't bring ourselves to talk to them and have no desire to win their hearts and minds"

This may well be true, BUT YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN that this IS propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: 282RA
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

>>Take this question for instance: When have we EVER seen small children used as suicide bombers???<<

I was talking about in Afghanistan. Why would I care about the IRA??? The US is not involved in that stupid stuff and never will be and frankly it holds no interest for me. Did I EVER mention the IRA??? Sierra Leone? NO. I posted one report and that report was from Afghanistan, was it not?

>>Seems to me that what you're asking for is a credible report of the Taliban using another six-year-old as suicide bomber.<<

We have the one I myself posted here. It is not a credible story and the opening line is that the Taliban is getting so desperate that they are resorting to using young children. So I'm asking, where are these other reports?? 12, 13 and 14 does not count. These are not young children. Children that age have fought in plenty of wars in the past. Children that age have committed rape and murder. Children that age have built bombs. Children like that can be trained to fight. Six year olds won't work. If they did, we should have dozens of such reports. You put a vest on a kid that age and hand him a detonator, you deserve what is about to happen.

>>It's also possible that the story is propaganda, but its source is not within US/NATO forces at all.<<

So what? Have you already forgotten that our military PAID Iraqi journalists to print favorable stories that did not appear to come from the American govt?

>>This may have already been said, but surely we would not know if they have used childred and suicide bombers, there wouldnt be much of them left.<<

With that logic, we would never know if they've EVER used suicide bombers because there's NEVER anything of them left. But we DO know they've done that. And we definitely WOULD know if small children were used this way.

We are using propaganda to paint our enemy in the worst possible light. In so doing, we have convinced ONLY OURSELVES that this enemy is as bad as we have painted him. IOW we are engaged with an enemy that exists in our minds. What is to stop a soldier from shooting a young kid with any kind of vest on because he's afraid it might be explosive?

Slowly but surely, we are driving ourselves insane with fear and loathing of our own making. We are painting an enemy so savage that all we feel is hate for them and the problem is we cannot distinguish them from the rest of the populace. So we just hate every Arab face we see. So when another bomb takes out a soldier or two, we go on shooting rampages, killing any Arab person we come across--and it's already happened. Our propaganda is convincing us that all Arabs are untrustworthy and have no respect for human life so who cares if we kill them ourselves?

Our propaganda is causing us to fear the entire populace of the Middle East to the point where we can't bring ourselves to talk to them and have no desire to win their hearts and minds. It is a recipe for disaster. We are defeating the very thing we claim we're trying to accomplish over there.

This entire war was built on propaganda and has virtually no substance to it. We are fighting in a hostile universe we have created within our minds. The only ones who think we're doing anything good is us because we believed our own bullshit. The rest of the world sees it for what it is--another aggressor nation, another occupying army, rationalizing that it is doing the right thing. And they have the same contempt for us that we heap other countries that have done what we are now doing and who propagandized it just as we have done and who, as a result, lost--just as we have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:22 PM

I cannot state, from my own knowledge, that the story is true. But I do NOT see any evidence that it IS propaganda, as was claimed at the top of this thread. Nor have I seen any valid reason to KNOW that it was propaganda.

It may or may not be a true story, in this case. But to claim that "This is the biggest load of garbage I've read in a while." is over the top, and has not been justified by any of the comments here.

Quite the opposite.

YOU are claiming that it is propaganda: the burden of proof THAT IT IS FALSE is upon you. I will listen to whatever you care to present- BUT I do not accept your OPINION ( which you are certainly entitled to) as FACTUAL evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:11 PM

Another thing... The Taliban bigshot quoted as saying that using a child in such a manner would be un-Islamic may well be sincere in speaking for himself. But are we to believe that all Taliban members hold to precisely the same set of beliefs and interpretations? I doubt the Taliban is so monolithic that "rogue elements" hatching such a scheme on their own would be out of the question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: The PA
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:53 AM

This may have already been said, but surely we would not know if they have used childred and suicide bombers, there wouldnt be much of them left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:45 AM

I'm asking for a credible report of the Taliban using 6 year olds as suicide bombers....

Seems to me that what you're asking for is a credible report of the Taliban using another six-year-old as suicide bomber. The fact that such a report may not exist doesn't disprove the reported incident. Everything has to happen a first time, you know. You're correct that the lack of similar verifiable incidents sheds suspicion upon the story's veracity, but it doesn't disprove it.

It's also possible that the story is propaganda, but its source is not within US/NATO forces at all. The whole thing may be a put-up job by anti-Taliban Afghanis who've fabricated it for their own purposes. It's possible that US/NATO troops have been duped into believing somebody else's propaganda.

In case you haven't noticed, there's a lot of shit that goes on in that part of the world that doesn't make a damned bit of sense. (Like the fact that the Taliban outlawed poppy production as anti-Islamic when it was in power, but is now financing itself from that same poppy production. Now there's an unwavering moral stance for ya.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM

282AR,

if you reread your first post you'll see that you have asked a lot of very different questions. Five altogether. So you should accept that some people choose to respond to a question you have asked even if you have already forgotten that you have asked that question.

Take this question for instance: When have we EVER seen small children used as suicide bombers???

To this question, answers from completely different countries and times are of course relevant. You're 9.56 post only shows that you have forgotten that you have asked this question. We cannot read your mind on which particular question you'd rather not read responses.

As for a credible report all we have now is more or less based on the same AP report. Any link to another newspaper would only be a link to another rendering of the same report.

You have not proven your case BTW, for you have not added anything new to your first post. As I read the other posts everyone here accepts that it is possible that the information is propaganda. But unlike you, the big majority here also thinks it is possible that the story is true. Without more information I consider this the only rational response.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: 282RA
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:56 AM

It's getting humorous that I'm asking for a credible report of the Taliban using 6 year olds as suicide bombers and all I get is stories about the IRA and children being used as lures.

Do you folks understand what I'm asking for?

I think at this point I have proven my case. It's propaganda. We are fighting a war by lying to ourselves about who and what the enemy is and never realizing it is us.

We are doomed to lose if we cannot defeat the enemy with the truth. If we must lie to do it then we are our own worst enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:51 AM

If you read the report in my first link, you will have to agree that the story referred to in the thread title may be propaganda, but it is not ridiculous, and may well be true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:20 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6768801.stm

This report about attacks on school teachers and children by Taliban


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:16 AM

As Bee-dubya-ell says, we just don't know. It is neither ridiculous at ther first glance as 282RA claims nor is it beyond belief that the story could be an invention.

Military use of children (Wikipedia)

The Palestinians have used suicide bombers from the age of 12 onwards.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,Keith A of hertford
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 05:39 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6731389.stm

This is a BBC report about Taleban taking children to fight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 05:37 AM

And you don't have to go to the Middle East to find such examples in our times. I know a lady State Judge in the US, let's call her Y, currently in her 60s, who as a child was used by her IRA-supporting father as a "mule" (or a "dove" as they referred to her at the time) to carry explosives on her body between Glasgow and Ireland. All this without her having any understanding of what she was doing (it was just a "game"), and her own mother was oblivious to this also. Y was 10 when her mother found out and put a stop to it.

Callousness and the willingness to sacrifice others, even kin, is not a prerogative of any race, religion, or nationality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 04:10 AM

How about him being, "more and more comfortable" about releasing the story?

Terrorists using children - of course they do and have done so in the past - Aden and in Iraq recently where two young children were put in a car, to be used as a car bomb. The thinking there was that the police and troops would not expect the car to blow seeing two small children inside it, the adults parked the car, got out of it, walked a safe distance then detonated it with the children inside it - not propaganda 282RA - it happened exactly as stated - nice people eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 01:01 AM

"Maj. John Thomas, a spokesman for NATO's International Security Assistance Force, said he was "a bit skeptical" about Juma's story at first, "but everything I've heard makes me more and more comfortable."

That a pretty convuluted statement.

Why would it make him comfortable if the boy was telling the truth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 10:16 PM

It doesn't take force to convince little kids of almost anything. Look at religion! Hee hee!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 10:12 PM

Are members of the Taliban capable of recruiting or coercing young children to do their dirty work? Yes.

Is the Bush administration capable of fabricating or exagerating a story for its propaganda value? Yes.

Score: Assholes - Zero, Other Assholes - Nothing


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: 282RA
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 09:17 PM

It has nothing to do with liking the Taliban. Had Bush only concerned himself with Afghanistan, I'd be one of his biggest supporters.

The problem is that when you rely on propaganda to fight a war you become seduced by your own bullshit and you cannot win a war being seduced by your own bullshit.

It's like writing a novel and then convincing yourself the story actually happened. How can that possibly benefit you to believe in a self-delusion?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:41 PM

yeh the taliban are still observably asssholes, and you appear to be standing up for them.

Why? Would you like to live under their horrible regime?

does it bloody matter, what is said about such a gang of complete shits? Do you want to do a David Irving job? Is he a role model?


the sooner they are pulverised, and something recognisably decent and humane (in intention at least) is put in its place the better.

there were still Nazi enthusiasts beating the drum for Hitler way into the 1950's in Germany. is that how you see you role in history. cos thats how its shaping up.


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