the folk revival

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:36 PM

I don't think I ever saw Margaret Barry anywhere other than in a pub, though I have to say that I encountered rather more women traditional singers at festivals like that which became the National, or at Sidmouth, neither of which are, technically, pubs.

Anyone who wishes to acquaint themselves with those traditional singers of the British Isles who have been recorded would surely begin with VotP.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: treewind
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:35 PM

Bee, in Britain women weren't excluded from pubs, but they were often restricted: typically a pub would have a "public bar" where respectable women weren't expected and a "lounge bar" where they were, though not usually alone. The distinction fizzled out slowly over the 1960's/70s, varying from region to region and pub to pub.

I guess that women who sang did so more in the home than out of it, which is where they spent much more of their lives anyway.

Anahata

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:31 PM

Bee it wasn't a daft question at all. Series like Voice of The People are not easy to come by in Canada, indeed it and other recordingssuch as these may only be available via the internet.
Musical Traditions (http://www.mustrad.org.uk) and
Topic Records (http://www.topicrecords.co.uk/)[ The Voice of The People]

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:22 PM

unlike some.....just maybe bee isn't familiar with Voice of The People, I don't suppose everybody has heard of this collection, or even Lemmy Brazil, come to think of it...or Daisy Chapman.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: treewind
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:22 PM

Well yes, but as far as traditional music (especially singing) is concerned, women didn't have a different "role to play" (to quote Bee's question. There just weren't so many of them doing it - though I'm not too certain of that either.

In fact in the Victorian and Edwardian middle classes women were generally expected and encouraged to be singers and musicians.

I'm not sure was Les's point was, so I may not have addressed it squarely.

Anahata

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:19 PM

Exactly Les,very few of the women that Diane mentioned sang in pubs.
NOW,Iam leaving,because I sense ,Jim Carroll is coming.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Bee
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:17 PM

I'm sorry you think it a daft question: I live in Canada, and here women weren't permitted in pubs or taverns until 1972, and since many discussions of UK music seem to focus on pubs, farm workers, fishermen, and other establishments and professions that here would have been considered strictly male preserves, am I supposed to just assume the women's situation in the UK? Thanks anyway for partially answering the question.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:49 PM

pubs were funny about women then? Perhaps in the sense that society was funny about women?

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:32 PM

Yes, it's a bit of a daft question. You only have to look at Voice Of The People where, in addition to May Bradley and Phoebe Smith many other women such as Sarah Makem, Belle Stewart, Margaret Barry Jeannie Robertson, Lizzie Higgins, Mary Anne Haynes and there are surely many more but I can't be arsed to go and look. Then there are the Legg women, Cecilia Costello and Queen Caroline Hughes.

It's true that these recordings are a little light on women musicians but, as Anahata says, pubs were funny about women then.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:27 PM

This certainly has become two different discussions. The folk revival over here was in the 60's. It's the folk survival, now.
Most of the discussion seems to be raging between different appreciations of current singers in England. I can't add anything to that. Certainly, as far as being traditional is concerned, they can't hold a candle to Lonnie Donegan. :-)

Hi, Art: Yes, I know you have always loved solo singers, and have always preferred to sing solo. That's a very strong preference for you. With rare acception, I've performed solo most of my life, too.
It just worked out that way, and I'm very happy with it because I can be more conversational between songs and strike up a different raport with the audience. But, I'd never confuse personal preference with the validity of solo singers versus groups. That's a discussion that is so non-sensical that it can't even withstand conversation. Traditional folk music embodies many types of songs, from ballads to string band jump tunes, prison work songs and dance music. I smile, reading this discussion because there have been times when someone who believes that only solo performers are real folk musicians, and then they begrudgingly (it seems) make an acception for dance bands. It still evades the clear tradition of singing groups and duos.

I love it all... Charlie Poole and Almeda Riddle. I bet if old Charlie and Almeda got together they'd just laugh at how serious (and foolish) the new generation is when they try to validate what is all folk music.

Jerry

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: treewind
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

...but I recently saw a video of an ancient session at the Blaxhall ship (it might have been filmed in the 1950's-60's, so actually less ancient than me) where there were some women step dancing, though I don't remember many singing. But pubs were funny about women then...

There were plenty of female song-carrying travellers. May Bradley and Phoebe Smith spring to mind immediately; I'm sure there are many more on Voice of the People. Cecil Sharp collected lots of songs from female singers in Somerset and elsewhere, Mary Humphreys has a whole bunch of recently-unearthed stuff from Cotttenhan in Cambridgeshire collected initially by Ella Bull from her servant Charlotte Few - in fact the more I think about it the more I know it's a total non-issue and frankly, a daft question.

Anahata

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 01:55 PM

well.,this is interesting.
Walter Bulwer was accompanied by his wife Daisy,but she generally played the piano.
Women played outside the house, Dolly Curtis was a fine melodeon player in East Anglia.
Julia Clifford[an irish musician living in EastAnglia] played fiddle,but it seems that the East anglian sessions were male dominated.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Bee
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 01:45 PM

While not wanting to intrude on the basic argument, could someone satisfy my curiousity about the role of women in UK traditional folk? All the talk of origins seems to be about where men sang to entertain each other. Did women not sing outside the house?

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 01:15 PM

well said Howard.a relative of mine used to accompany Walter Bulwer,at garden /village fetes where he[walter] used to buskbottling for him.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 12:39 PM

Howard, I would argue and you really make the point well that there is more "continuity" than there is "revival".

Now it applies quite a lot in Sheffield as I argued earlier.

It seems to apply to you (with a slight aberration when you went around folk clubs!!) :-)

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 12:22 PM

The original tradition was of people making music within, and for, their own community. For a variety of reasons, that tradition has largely, in England at least, died out.

The revival has created its own tradition, and its own community. However the community we have created is self-consciously based around the music.

I think there is now a new tradition - the revival has picked up the ball and run with it. On the one hand, it's taken it into the commercial world of festivals and recordings, but at the same time, at grass-roots level,sessions, ceilidhs and morris dancing are thriving at a level that probably hasn't been seen since the 19th Century.

Up until a few years ago, most of my music-making was as a "performer" - in folk clubs, at festival and similar events. Now most of my playing is in sessions, or playing in a band for weddings, parties etc. It occurs to me that what I'm doing now differs little from what the likes of Scan Tester, Billy Bennington, the Bulwers and others were doing. And while some of my repertoire comes from recorded or printed sources (and now from the internet) some of it was picked up from other singers and musicians. The continuity is still there.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 12:17 PM

Why don't you educate me so you needn't despair. I'd hate for you to have to despair. It sounds so...you know...desperate.

(and a little condescending. you don't suppose that I could have a different opinion than you? Or is it really that you're right and I'm ignorant?)

...but first, maybe you could explain back to me what you THINK I'm saying, because I think you're reading what I'm not writing.

...or you could continue to despair.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:51 AM

The band Mawkin has been organising musical weekends called Steppin' On The Eel's Foot in recent years. Their melodeon player's grandfather John Barber is the Southwold Town Crier.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:50 AM

Jim Carroll, anyone interested in pub singing by traditional singers,should google Geoff Ling.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:44 AM

Jim Carroll,correction to my earlier post re EELS FOOT public house LEISTON,there was singing in this pub in the 1930 and 1940s and was recorded by the BBC ,Needless to say thiswas long before the British folk revival,.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:36 AM

DAVE its Northampton for cobblers,I find myself agreeing with you DAVE,John Hardlys post is alot of poppycock.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:30 AM

errr.. those folks of a purist or nervous disposition
may not enjoy googling for European 'Folk Metal' bands




heres a point in the 'wrong' direction..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_metal

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:24 AM

You scored that 100 on my shoulders.

You're welcome.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:15 AM

And having taken that 100,

"that what those "rockers" owe the revival is that the revival, though having little spark of genius of it own, at least kept those instruments, that acoustic sound, alive long enough for real artists to come along and use it to make better music."

As we say in soggy Sheffield - what a load of cobblers.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:50 AM

Easby, you're reading exactly the opposite of my point into my post.

I'm saying that those "rockers" are NOT part of the revival. But I am saying that those "rockers" stand on the shoulders of the revival -- that what those "rockers" owe the revival is that the revival, though having little spark of genius of it own, at least kept those instruments, that acoustic sound, alive long enough for real artists to come along and use it to make better music.

Those rockers were synthesizers (as are most good artists) and one of the elements they borrowed was a sound, a feel, from the folk revival. They also borrowed freely from jazz and from race recording and from whatever else was around -- but the sensibility -- the SOUND of their music comes greatly from the folk revival.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:42 AM

I genuinely prefer the sound and emotiveness of US and Eastern European roots 'folk musics'
to trad UK 'morris' & 'celtic'& 'boring worthy archive accademic'..

there i said it..

But 1970's UK electric folk rock is the backbone of my CD collection.


..then, i'm from a generation that grew up in provincial towns
listening to and being influenced by early 1970's
folk rock on Radio 1 and Top of the Pops.

If folk clubs ever did exist in my hometown,
it would have been an unknown and alien culture to families from my west country council estate.

Wasn't until i left home in my late teens,
i went to a few folk clubs up North;
can't remember much about the experience..
guess that shows how much of a positive impression that left on me for the rest of my life..!!??


Everything I ever learnt about 'folk' has been off popular media channels,
inate curiosity and facilities for self learning in public library LP collections
[Topic Lable LPs were readily available in the nearest big library]..

and now here at mudcat !

If people with a similar background and music education to mine
ever try to become 'folk music' practicioners in the public realm..

then first and formost it is about enjoying the opportunity
to express ourselves creatively via a genre of music we love to listen to ourselves,
and entertaining an audience in a fun atmosphere of mutual/reciprocal shared community partying,

and if we muck about with electric guitars drum kits and synthesisers in the process..

muddying the barriers and definitions between trad song styles and geographical origins..

well.. thats the way we get pleasure from our music now..

thats it i s'pose.. off to the gym for a couple of hours hard work out..
get back home with a fierce thirst for cider..
plug a guitar in for a bit of an energetic warm up strum
to get in the mood for another saturday night
of pointless revelry..

[will try not to post any drunk shite here tonight..promise..]

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM

This thread is showing the divide of light years between the North American concept of what the revival is, and what it meant in England. It's not just the Atlantic Ocean (and different languages) that keep us apart (indeed John Hardly seems to think that all revivalists are marooned on an island somewhere midway), but a fundamental difference of perception of what roots music is.

Mr Hardly lists a few rock stars and claims these have kept 'the sound' alive. Now, I like the music of Stephen Stills (and Neil Young for that matter) but to say this is to try and include Graham Nash within the ranks of the English revivalists. And he's not. He's a Hollie, for chrissake.

I'll doubtless get battered for telling Murkans what their roots music actually IS. but to me it's local or regional musics: blues, cajun, conjunto, Appalachian, musics of immigrant communities and musics made by current writers if they are rooted in those traditions or address the problem. Not popular songs emanating from Nashville or Austin. Not yet, anyway.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 08:51 AM

tradional musicians, do not have to move around,to be influenced by the outside world,Jamesie Kingston Traditional Fiddler, lived five miles from me,and only had a wireless,but would learn tunes [jimmy shand]etc from the wireless,he would also learn tunes from a revival musician,like myself.
HE had in his repertoire Dashing along with the smoothing iron,he had learnt this from an english revivalist 20 years earlier,who had been on holiday in the area.
no traditional musician /singer is an island unto himself.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 08:42 AM

The Folk revival enabled traditional musicians to meet other traditional musicians /singers,from different parts of the country,at Folk Festivals to swop tunes, learn songs even[ possibly] learn new techniques,dare I say even improve their playing,another example of the revival fueling and strengthening the tradition.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 08:38 AM

The folk revival kept the sound -- the instrumentation and acoustic sensibility -- alive for a generation of creative people who had a better idea of what to do with those tools to create art with them (rather than simply keeping alive a tradition).

So, even though the music of the folk revival was very un-creative (by definition), it kept a certain sound alive for people like Stephen Stills, James Taylor, Jim Croce, Gordon Lightfoot, Don McLean, and others to use to express their creative genius.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 08:19 AM

ok les I agree.I was asked to provide evidence,.The revival did fuel the tradition by providing WalterPardon and many other traditional singers musicians with a platform to perform,Julia /JOHNcLIFFORD,Fred Jordan,WillieScott,OscarWoods,BillyBennington,HarryCox,JimmyMCbeath,
BobRoberts,GordonHall,PackieByrne,BobCann,JeannieRobertson,and many more.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 08:14 AM

There is some contrary evidence too......

"Please tell me what the Bothys were, if they were not places where Scottish farm workers slept, lived, told stories made their own entertainment and sang their traditional songs[They did it because that was how they made their entertainment]
Willie Scott sang at hunt functions[a social gathering],at many hunt functions,traditional songs were sung,they were sung for entertainment."

Absolutely correct Dick but let's remember these were private functions and hunt suppers whilst held in pubs would be in a separate room.

These were inclusive social gatherings - not everyone was invited.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 08:06 AM

I trust that's not shouting I can here?

Some of us clearly enjoy an argument for it's own sake. But isn't simply polarizing positions on many features of human experience inappropriate?

People sang at home, people sang in pubs - more here, less there?

The tradition fuelled (?) the revival, the revival fuelled the tradition probably not much? Evidence of the latter please.

Cheers

Les (singing in the house not in the pub today)

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 07:17 AM

Singing was taking place in the 1950s,at the Blaxhall ship,there was singing at the EELS FOOT near LEISTON late fifties early sixties.,One of the singers was EdgarButton a traditional singer,
StephenBaldwin TRADITONAL FIDDLER RECORDED IN 1954 most of his playing had been done in local pubs[herefordshire area],according to RussellWortley,Reghall,RolloWoods and DavidBland.
then we have all the irish immigrants playing in london,in pubs in the 1950s,all of them traditional players.
here in Ballydehob,Irish traditional music was being played in the pubs[1960s] and at threshings [1950]s by my friend Jamesie Kingston[traditional fiddler].,he also played at scrioiacht,gatherings in private houses.all these musician, singers, I have mentioned were not from the Folk REVIVAL.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 06:31 AM

Jim Carroll is doubting the significance of pubs as the places to sing, traditionally. Well, he is vastly experienced in these matters, but maybe in different places from those4 I know. I can confirm that in the far northwest of England(north Lancs/Cumbria I suppose), pubs were places where traditional(non-revival) singing flourished. Maybe not the only places, maybe not the main places, but certainly important places. And, apropos of other discussions here: it was pretty obvious in most cases who were trad and who were revival at the time I am talking about(60/70's)

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: KeithofChester
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 06:24 AM

Talking of folk revivals, on Jonathan Ross last night Pete Docherty said that Bert Jansch is playing on the new Babyshambles album.

I also saw a huge list of Autumn Davey Graham dates all over the country on either Tickemaster or Ticketline the other day

What goes around comes around indeed.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 06:12 AM

Lots of fervent - if thankfully not violent - agreement there.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 06:05 AM

yes Jim,The Blaxhall Ship, a village pub.In some east anglian pubs there would be an accordion behind the bar[if it wasnt there for use, why was it there]
Walter Pardon had to spend a whole winter,getting his songs up to recording standard.[in otherwords he was not practiced]
Sam Larner sang in a pub,so did the Coppers.
Bob Copper says he recalls the music that used to accompany toiling in the fields,shearing the sheep,or resting in the local Tap rooms[PUBS].He remembers the occassions on which they were sung TaTer,Beer night,hollering pot and Black ram,large and small festivals.
Please tell me what the Bothys were, if they were not places where Scottish farm workers slept, lived, told stories made their own entertainment and sang their traditional songs[They did it because that was how they made their entertainment]
Willie Scott sang at hunt functions[a social gathering],at many hunt functions,traditional songs were sung,they were sung for entertainment.
   
my point is that these singers/musicians sang/played for the enjoyment of it,not because they thought they had to to keep the songs alive,apart from Walter Pardon they did not see themselves as song carriers,they sang the songs because they enjoyed doing so. they sang during work and afterwork, they sang to relieve the drudgery of work.,and they sang to entertain each other,not because they thought they had to to keep them alive,once people[Walter Pardon] start doing that it shows the tradition is very weak.They sang for enjoyment after work and during work
now lets get back to the topic,I would also appreciate it if you refrained from personal attacks[a nasty dose of comhaltas competionitis].

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 05:43 AM

So, what has the Folk revival evre done for us?

I guess that is another thread?

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:58 AM

'THE exception,Walter was preseving the songs consciously BECAUSE he had nowhere to sing them until the folk revival came along,and gave him a platform'
How about his singing them within his tradition, before the revival was a twinkle in MacColl's, Lomax's, Lloyd's eye?
The song tradition was a fact of life for many communities for centuries before either Sharp's or the present revival came along.
Your statement appears to make the tradition irrelevant, and once again you appear to be setting up a pissing competition between the tradition and the revival - I wonder why - a nasty dose of Comhaltas Competitionitis no doubt!
'The Village pub had an important function,many singers sang in these pubs'.
Do you know this; where is your evidence? Walter or his family never sang in pubs; Sam Larner said his singing was done at sea or at home; Irish singing was entirely a home-based activity up to fairly late in its development, as I believe it was in England.
By confining folk song to entertainment you are ignoring other aspects of its function. It certainly was/is entertaining, but it is/was much, much more than that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 11:23 PM

Good thoughts here from some of my favorite people. I'm with Mr. Bob Coltman just about all the way. Jerry knows I'll pick the hobo/cowboy/railroader singer who puts the SONG FIRST right at the top of the list of what I enjoy listening to most. (Harry Haywire Mac McClintock personifies this singer all by himself.) And if you look at what I personally put out on recordings over the years, it's all just ol' Art and his banjo or guitar on every single track but one; that one was where Cindy Mangsen sang harmony on the chorus of an Illinois version of "Down By The Brazos" --- the Texas song about that state's rivers. Soooo, the Illinois Humanities Council just put one of my songs on their new CDs of Illinois Folk Songs. What did they pick? Of course, the song with Cindy!

I pretty much fully understand their choice...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 06:33 PM

Irish music has enjoyed a high standard,and has many skilful performers thanks to many teachers and also to comhaltas.
No Jim ,TheTraditional singers function was not that, but as singers and entertainers in their local environment,the singers at the Blaxhall ship did not regard themselves as song carriers,they went down to their pub to have a sing and socialise.
Walter Pardon may have regarded himself as a song carrier,but I think he was THE exception,Walter was preseving the songs consciously BECAUSE he had nowhere to sing them until the folk revival came along,and gave him a platform,
not so The Blaxhall ship singers[BobHart Cyril Poacher etc]or Bob/ RonCopper and their parents[of course Bob later documented his songs],But their songs were their entertainment ,part of their social life.
Before the FIRST WORLD WAR,which decimated english male society,the Village pub had an important function,many singers sang in these pubs,they sang Traditional songs,and music hall songs they did it for enjoyment.Its only people like yourself that have hare brained ideas about song carriers,the singers were too busy enjoying themselves getting inebriated,getting laid and enjoying life,just like[ I hope] young people in the folk revival are doing right now.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 05:58 PM

Anahata,
I agree wholeheartedly - as far as instruments are concerned.
Unfortunately this hasn't filtered down to the singers.
Irish music is enjoying a tremendous popularity at present generated by the skill of the performers - surely there is a lesson to be learned there
Cap'n
You've gone done it - you've lost me again.
Who mentioned the ability or otherwise of traditional singers - not me.
I have argued in the past - and will continue to do so that their function, with very few exceptions, was not as performers, but as song carriers who, in many cases, could bring a unique experience to the songs without necessarily possessing the skills that they may once have had;(please read back correspondence - I have no intention of reviving the argument here).
This has nothing whatever to do with the poor standards which are accepted, and in some case welcomed and encouraged by some PERFORMERS in the REVIVAL (read the back correspondence again). We can all have off nights, but when off nights become the object of the exercise.....
I can enjoy myself throwing darts at a dartboard, but the height of my enjoyment comes when I hit the bull.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: treewind
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 05:08 PM

Well, that suggest one distinguishing difference between traditional and revival singers.

Traditional singers are allowed to sing badly, revivalists aren't :-)

Seriously the image of folk music has been at times badly damaged by bad singing or fiddle playing in imitation of the worst characteristics of some recorded sources. One refreshing thing about the current young generation of performers is that they have no hangups about being able to play their instruments well!

Anahata

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: SimonS
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 05:05 PM

Captain, I didn't say Kate was the best singer of the song, I said she had a right to sing it however she wants. You (or I) don't have to like it, but its kind of beyond critisism of being "wrong".

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 04:49 PM

Jim,many traditional singers are excellent, some mediocre,and a few bad[unable to sing or play remotely in tune]Harkie Nesling, alien storey],so whats the difference between the revival and the tradtion then.
mediocrity is not the aim, the aim is for people to enjoy themselves and give pleasure to others.,as most people that attend folk festivals and clubs are not musical masochists,something must be right about the folk revival.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:27 PM

'Jim, I take it you are disturbed at what is happening in the folk revival now,because you think it makes the folk revival irrelevant to traditional music'.
Cap'n,
Why should you think that I think that.... if you know what I mean.
Please don't answer questions on my behalf.
I believe that - as I have said many times before, the revival owes its existence to the tradition and we would not be here talking to each other without it.
On the other hand, there has, as far as I can see, a significant shift away from the tradition, in singing style, in repertoire, and more importantly, in function. Without all of these, the folk song revival will no longer be a folk song revival, but something else, not better, not worse, and certainly not irrelevant to those participating - just something else.
I have been following the thread on criticism with some interest, and here, along with other threads, I have gathered the impression that one of the problems is a total lack of critical analysis in many of the clubs, which has, in my opinion, led to a plummeting in singing standards. In fact it has been argued that standards and good singing are counter-productive as they frighten off the mediocre. If mediocrity is an aim, the revival will crash - and will deserve to have crashed.
The tradition - as was - will still be there, on tapes. on records, in books - and in peoples affections and memories, but nobody in their right mind wants to spend a lifetime listening to bad, or even indifferent singing, and it certainly does no favours to the tradition.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:11 PM

Simon S your entitled to your opinion,but just because someone wrote a song it does not mean that they are the best singer of it,here is an example, Paul Metsers Farewell to theGold ,the best version of this has got to be Nic Jones interpretation.
I was AWARE Kate Rusby wrote this song,it is a reasonable effort, enhanced by clever arranging,that could have been sung a lot better,personally I doubt if many source singers would have wasted their time on it.Icertainly wont waste any more time on it,can we get back to the thread please.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:04 PM

"What draws me to folk music, or popular music as I prefer it to be called, is that it is often the truest representation of a piece of time - what was happening on the other side of the plate glass at a given time in history. It is often a more accurate view than that which historians who have a particular axe to grind, would have us believe. When I came to look at some of the songs of the day, I noted that they were at odds with the secondary modern education history that I'd been brought up on. Only in odd lines - there's a spirit that rings more truthfully than some of the historians would have us believe."

- John Tams

nice term that, popular music.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 02:20 PM

Definitions are more important for what they exclude than include, Greg. :-)

Jerry