BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 06:26 PM

'Am I the only one who has a fondness for the British Union? A multi-ethnic union, by the way.'


No indeed. It was a sad day when they stopped showing the White Heather Club on New Years Eve. I didn't like it much, but it was better than what they've got now.

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:51 PM

There are Scottish MPs occupying seats for English constituencies.... eg Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington and Chelsea), Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Canning Town).

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:41 AM

Interesting site "Giok" (There Bill D got it right at last, thanks for pointing it out) the military heritage site I looked up for British Regiments serving in Canada between 1755 and 1763 mentioned no involvement for Fraser's Regiment (All regiments at the time were commonly named after their Colonels and not by number). Looking at the lines of battle indicated it would appear that the Fraser's (78th Foot) fought as an ad hoc formation as did the "Grenadiers". The latter is understandable, as "Grenadiers" were grenade throwing troops in those days and the Grenadier companies of line regiments were detatched to serve together to form a shock troop in order to break a strong position.

British Regular Regiments in North America 1755-1763 (Compiled by Robert Henderson)

- 1st Regiment of Foot (The Royal Regiment) (1757-1763) capture of Louisbourg, capture of Ticonderoga and St. Frederick (Crown Point), surrender of Montreal; against Cherokees in South Carolina; recapture of Newfoundland.

- 15th Regiment of Foot (Amherst's) (1758-1761) capture of Louisbourg and Gaspe, siege of Quebec including Plains of Abraham, Battle of Ste. Foy, surrender of Montreal.

- 22nd Regiment of Foot (Whitmore's) (1756-1761) capture of Louisbourg and Cape Breton, Gren. coy part of Louisbourg Grenadiers at siege of Quebec, surrender of Montreal.

- 27th Regiment of Foot (Inniskilling Regiment) (1756-1760) captures of Ticonderoga, St. Frederick (Crown Point), Isle aux Noix, Niagara, surrender of Montreal.
   
- 28th Regiment of Foot (Bragg's) (1758-1762) capture of Louisbourg, siege of Quebec including the Plains of Abraham, battle of Ste Foy.

- 35th Regiment of Foot (Otway's) (1756-1760) surrender of Fort William Henry and subsequent attack by Indians, capture of Louisbourg and Gaspe, siege of Quebec including Plains of Abraham, battle of Ste Foy, surrender of Montreal.

- 40th Regiment of Foot (Hopson's) (1717-1764) capture of Fort Beausejour, capture of Louisbourg, Gren. coy part of Louisbourg Grenadiers at siege of Quebec, surrender of Montreal, defence of Newfoundland.

- 42nd Regiment of Foot (Black Watch) (1756-1760) failed attack on Ticonderoga, captures of Ticonderoga, St. Frederick, Isle aux Noix, surrender of Montreal.
   
- 43rd Regiment of Foot (Kennedy's) (1757-1760)siege of Quebec including the Plains of Abraham, battle of Ste Foy, surrender of Montreal.

- 44th Regiment of Foot (Abercromby's) (1755-1765) failed attack on Fort Duquesne, failed attack on Ticonderoga, captures of Fort Niagara, St. Frederick, Fort Levis, surrender of Montreal.

- 45th Regiment of Foot (Wartburton's) (1746-1765) capture of Fort Beausejour, capture of Louisbourg, Gren. coy as part of Louisbourg Grenadiers at siege of Quebec, recapture of Newfoundland.

- 46th Regiment of Foot (Murray's) (1757-1761) failed attempt on Ticonderoga, capture of Fort Niagara.

- 47th Regiment of Foot (Lacelles') (1750-1763) capture of Fort Beausejour, capture of Louisbourg, siege of Quebec including Plains of Abraham, battle of Ste Foy, surrender of Montreal.
   
- 48th Regiment of Foot (Webb's) (1758-1761) failed attack on Fort Duquene, capture of Louisbourg, siege of Quebec including Plains of Abraham, battle of Ste Foy.

- 50th Regiment of Foot (Shirley's) (1754-56) their capture at Fort Oswego.

- 51st Regiment of Foot (Pepperell's) (1754-56) their capture at Fort Oswego.

- 55th Regiment of Foot (Howe's then Prideaux's) (1757-1760) failed attempt on Ticonderoga, capture of Fort Niagara, defence of Niagara.

- 58th Regiment of Foot (Anstruther's) (1757-1762) capture of Louisbourg, seige of Quebec including the Plains of Abraham, battle of Ste Foy.

- 60th Regiment of Foot (Royal American) no details of service given.
      
- 77th Regiment of Foot (Montgomery's Highlanders) no details of service given.
      
- 78th Regiment of Foot (Fraser's Higlanders) no details of service given.
      
- 80th Regiment of Foot (Gage's Light Infantry) no details of service given.

- 94th Regiment of Foot (Royal Welsh Volunteers) raised 1760 garrison duty.
      
- 95th Regiment of Foot raised 1760, garrison duty.

- Royal Artillery no details of service given.

Of the British Casualties 1225 out of 1412 were non-Scots so the "cannon-fodder" impression that some like to give cannot really be maintained.

Giok's statement - "There has always historically been a preponderance of Scots in the foot regiments, who are usually in the forefront of land battles.", is, I believe, incorrect. A more correct statement which I do believe could be substantiated is the one made which states, " There has been no major campaign by any British Army throughout its history in which a Scottish Regiment did not take an active part."

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: GUEST,~~)oO(~~
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:26 PM

So did Brown stage the London "bombs" the other day to kick-start his new position, or did Blair do it for some other purpose?

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 10:43 AM

No you're not PE, I vote Scottish nationalist because I want us to have more of a say in our own affairs, and in the absolute certainty that a referendum for independence would be lost.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 08:37 AM

Am I the only one who has a fondness for the British Union? A multi-ethnic union, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 06:24 PM

is Teribus dyslexic? Or is 'Goik' some sort of insult I an not aware of?

7 times...hmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 06:24 PM

It says here, that 187 Fraser's Highlanders died in the battle.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 06:18 PM

Well as I said 'reported to have said' I did hear this on the radio, but I'm willing to bow to your superior knowledge, one can't after all rely too heavily on the media for information.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 06:11 PM

"Goik" in response to your post above, I quote a very famous US Airborne Battlefield Commander - "Nuts".

Take a look at the British Order of Battle in any conflict you will find that with regard to Regiments of Foot numbers have been predominantly English Regiments, raised by county, sometimes with two regiments representing some counties. Scottish lowland regiments were raised in a similar fashion. Highland Regiments 79th Foot for example (Cameron Highlanders) were raised privately and offered for service by Clan Chiefs, clear exception here is 42nd Regiment of Foot (The Black Watch). Now as the number of County Regiments is greater than the number of Scottish Regiments, I fail to see how the statement can be made that, "There has always historically been a preponderance of Scots in the foot regiments".

Your example of the unidentified officer who said, "Send in the Scots, it matters not if they die", whilst serving under Wolfe on the Heights of Abraham. Now he would have made that statement in 1959 wouldn't he? Goik can you think of any reason why a senior British Field Officer would adopt such a view at that time? - Maybe he like Wolfe had been present at Culloden in 1746 - point Goik was that the Scots were not thought of as being too reliable at the time and were mostly assigned to garrison duty. Scottish Regiments present in Canada at the time (1755 to 1763) were - 1st Royal Scots; 42nd Black Watch; 77th and 78th. Now back to your quote, I don't know why he would say it because none of those regiments were present at Quebec. We have four Scottish Regiments - here are the English Regiments present in Canada at the time those marked * were part of the order of battle at the seige of Quebec and the subsequent Battle on the Heights of Abraham - 15th*; 22nd*; 27th; 28th*; 35th*; 40th*; 43rd*; 44th; 45th*; 46th; 47th* and 50th. That makes 12 English Regiments of Foot Goik, eight of whom appear on Wolfe's Order of Battle, and the preponderance in foot regiments, in the forefront of battle were Scots? Complete and utter myth Goik.

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:38 PM

There has always historically been a preponderance of Scots in the foot regiments, who are usually in the forefront of land battles. An English General [I forget who] was reported to have said at the storming of Quebec under General Wolfe "Send in the Scots, it matters not if they die"

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:24 PM

Just an observation, but while both Brown and Blair may be Scots born, Brown sits as Parliamentary Member for a Scottish constituency, while Blair sat for an English constituency.

Another with regard to Goik's statement about Scotland supplying cannon-fodder - no more so than any other constituent part of the country - or Empire, in its day. Force levels in the British Armed Forces (All branches) amount to about 429,500 of which there are 195,900 Regulars, 191,300 Regular Reserves and 42,300 Volunteer Reserves. If "Goik" is attempting to imply that the majority are Scots, I would tend to think that he would be wrong. Historically if any part of the British Isles contributed way over its fair share it would be Ireland.

Another, very few (i.e. only one) of Blairs Cabinet survived the Brown take-over so which Sycophants was Ake talking about? - The Liberal Democrats? The Opposition?

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 06:55 AM

concertina ceol said: "I would like regional assemblies in England."

You've got them. All part of the vast system on unelected unaccountable quangoes to which the Labour government has handed so much power.

Giok's assertion - "I know that even people in the north of England resent being ruled from a distance" - needs to be qualified by the fact that people in the eastern half of the north comprehensively rejected regional government when it was offered a while back.

The model on offer was an intermediate level of government that would have derived most of its powers from the lower-ranking county and metropolitan authorities. Whether a regional authority that derived most of its powers from central government would have been accepted is not known. But it would have been a better model. It would have addressed a degree of centralisation in the UK that is stifling flexibility, and responsiveness to local economic factors. And it would have better matched the UK to the regional funding structures etc of the Economic Union.

As chancellor (finannce minister), Gordon Brown has been the arch centralist. He says he has learnt lessons, including the lesson that centralised government is not always best. I think we will soon see signficant devolvement to democratically accountable authorities. I have a number of friends whose expectations are more cynically founded.

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 06:28 AM

PS

SCOTLAND, WALES AND NORTHERN IRELAND HOME RULE AS WELL

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 06:28 AM

as a Scot ENGLAND HOME RULE

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:56 AM

Oh dear, it's amazing how truth and logic can upset some people isn't it?
G

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: free born heed
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:51 AM

Well, i'm English and would like to see the English given the choice as to what kind of government we want, instead of having it forced on us by a Scot. The Scot's were allowed to vote on whether they wanted a parliamnet or not, so why not this english? The answer is becuase of anlglophobia at the heart of this government.

In fact the best solution is an Independant England, maybe then we can have an English parlaiment and regional asemblies.

To John 'Giok' MacKenzie re:
"As a Scot I'm all in favour of an English Parliament, and regional assemblies, I know that even people in the north of England resent being ruled from a distance by a government that is based in the south east of England where many people don't know or care, anything at all about how people north of Watford live."

Quite, frankly it's none of your business what the english want. And as for you asserion about "many people don't know or care, anything at all about how people north of Watford live", perhaps as a scot you would care to enlighten me about my country. And quite frankly your logic could be applied to your own country:

I know that even people in the shetland isles resent being ruled from a distance by a government that is based in the central belt of scotland where many people don't know or care, anything at all about how people north of edinburgh live.

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:23 AM

As a Scot I'm all in favour of an English Parliament, and regional assemblies, I know that even people in the north of England resent being ruled from a distance by a government that is based in the south east of England where many people don't know or care, anything at all about how people north of Watford live.
It works in the USA where different states have different laws and taxes, with Federal Law as the superior and over arching law of the USA as a whole.
I don't wish to sound curmudgeonly about this, but the Scots have been providing cannon fodder for the British army for many many years, and still are. So it would appear to me that the English get their money's worth there.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 08:31 PM

I would have thought that being Prime Minister trumps being a Scottish MP...

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: concertina ceol
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 06:05 PM

I would like regional assemblies in England rather than an English Parliament.

I don't see that Brown is any more Scottish than Blair (other than the way he sounds), they are both Scottish. Blair has scottish parents and was born in Edinburgh.

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: free born heed
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 05:33 PM

"So far as there are differences between the government in Edinburgh and the government in Westminster it strikes me the Scots have generally got it right."

The Edinburugh parlaiment may well have got it right, but one point that i'm making is that Gordon Brown as a Scottish constituency MP at Westmister has no right to decide the policy of the English NHS. No English MP can decide Scottish NHS policy, because that is the reserve of the Scotish Parliament. Why has this Labour governement and Gordon Brown refused to allow the English the right to choose whether they want an English parlaiment or not? Denying the English equality is grossly unair and massivley undemocratic! This is the west lothian question!

If you want to know more the Campaign for an English Parliament http://www.thecep.org.uk can explain the issue in more details.

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 05:02 PM

So far as there are differences between the government in Edinburgh and the government in Westminster it strikes me the Scots have generally got it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 04:12 PM

A serious point is that Brown will have to deal with the new disparities in health care, old age provisions etc now coming on stream in Scotland but not in the rest of the UK. Salmond is using these new devices of finance to drive a wedge between England and Scotland and I think he's succeeding very well. The English are slow to rouse but their reaction to constant rejection and racism from many Scots will eventually occur and if the English decide to look after their own the Scots will only have bought the consequences on themselves.
And the consequences will far outweigh the transient benefits they are now allocating to themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: GUEST,ES& L
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:07 PM

"As the American's might say - "Go figure!" "

'American' in the plural (like so many other nouns) does not take an apostrophe.

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: goatfell
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:06 PM

well his favourite hymn is a hymn which is all about England and the emblem of his party is the English rose.

Subject: RE: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:04 PM

I guess we shall have to panic then?

Subject: BS: Gordon Brown - First minister of England
From: free born heed
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:36 PM

Gordon Brown, new First minister of England has slashed spending on English (not Welsh or Scottish) hospitals. Who says so? None other than the financial times.

re : http://www.ft.com/cms/s/f7a994d0-2677-11dc-8e18-000b5df10621.html
To quote:

"Prompted by the tightness of the public finances, the new prime minister, who has placed the NHS as his "immediate priority", cut the capital budget of the English NHS for 2007-08 from £6.2bn to £4.2bn. The move could delay the government's hospital building and reconfiguration programme in England.

However, Mr Brown avoided equivalent cuts to the Scottish and Welsh NHS budgets even though the funding formula for the UK nations suggests they should have shared the pain. That decision leaves him open to criticism that he favoured patients in his home country."

It's worth while remniding you of Brown's signiture to the "Scottish Claim of Right"

"We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount."

If you are English, should you be worried about Gordon Brown, new First Minister of England? As the American's might say - "Go figure!"