Everytime I try to sing folk songs..

Subject: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 07:42 PM

everytime I try to sing folk songs..

I end up sounding like David Bowie or Anthony Newley..

..or even Al Bowlly


wtf !!!??



try to lapse unselconciously into my born west country regional accent..

try to sing with honest heartfelt raw emotion..

try to forget a lifetimes pop media influence pollution..


even desperately try to emulate Rod Stewart & Noddy Holder style distorted death rattle vocal dynamics..



bollocks..


guess I was born to be a crooner.. !!!??


..and cider makes my voice sound even more mellow !!!



[just tried singing 'Waterloo'.. and annoyed myself by just how weak
and 'sunday school' Ii sound in my own head..]

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:43 PM

Never mind, lad, just lie down quietly for awhile, and leave the CD player off.

Tony Newley? Al Bowlly? Thought I was the only one who remembered them. (Fair enough, I don't actually remember Al, he got killed in WWII.)

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 12:00 AM

tried again..

singing along to Anne Brigges..




actually i dont think i sounded that bad..





oh the harmonies we could have made together 30 years ago..


errmm.. i would have been 18..

and she would have been a well fit older bird..

errmmm..............

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 02:19 AM

That's your tradition - its the others who are the phoneys. You're lucky - your voice does fall into a natural way of singing. That lot are trying to recreate something which probably never existed.

don't let a gang of middle class assholes make you ashamed of what your voice sounds like. Probably their Mum never did the dishes - so that they never heard what she sang like - if she sang at all. or maybe their mums did the dishes listening to Radio Four's money box - telling what them to do with their ISA's and PEP's.

You have a tradition - they don't. Don't sell it for a mess of middle class gluten free pottage. It will only make your breath smell of garlic - they put too much of it in everything.

The only reason some of these are gits are so adamant that they know what real folk music is is because - they're part of a minority cult and it makes them feel important.

If you sing in your natural voice - you have nothing to learn from anybody.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 02:44 AM

i just woke up on the bedrom floor
with headphones on..
marc bolan "dandy in the underworld" cd in
and big loud noises in my head
throbbin like buggery..

and half a botle of thatchrs vintage gone warm under the duvet


thannks weelittledrummer

thats one of the most true faced [roper job
things i ever read anyone evr wrote here..

Subject: What is a natural "folk" voice?
From: Genie
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:44 AM

Wee little drummer said it:
"If you sing in your natural voice - you have nothing to learn from anybody."

OK, maybe you could still learn a thing or two (like how to project or how not to ruin your vocal cords), but since when is an untrained, natural voice not "folk," even if it sounds unusually clear and resonant?

Is Joan Baez not "folk" because she doesn't sound like Buffy Ste Marie or Tracy Chapman?

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: stallion
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:15 AM

I don't understand why there is so much controversy about how the voice sounds, it sounds how you sing, I have issues with english people singing with an irish accent, Estuary english speakers dropping aitches and ferrel kids from cleckheaton singing with an American accent, so sing in YOUR vernacular accent, be yourself. Don't have a problem with Arctic Monkeys, they are from Sheffield, you can ear it as soon as e opens is gob. It is interesting to know how people sang but I have no wish to copy them as I have no wish to be an opera singer, I sing for my own pleasure, if I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't do it.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:46 AM

Stop 'trying'. Just sing.

Those that mind don't matter - those that matter don't mind.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 06:12 AM

"Those that mind don't matter - those that matter don't mind."

Excellent Jacqui.c...what you might call mind over matter! Just sing and enjoy it! That's what really matters!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: GUEST,Captain Colin.
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 08:31 AM

What a good thread!- excellent posts from the punk (as usual) and WLD (as always. Some of the other pos(t)ers on this site should take note.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 08:51 AM

punkfolkrocker, get help NOW.

eric

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:54 AM

"I have issues with english people singing with an irish accent, Estuary english speakers dropping aitches and ferrel kids from cleckheaton singing with an American accent, so sing in YOUR vernacular accent"

the point is, that some of our parents did sing in an American accent. Ian Campbell once told his Dad's biggest influence was Al Jolson.

An American accent when we sing has been the vernacular of many English singers since the 1880's when American music hall acts became very fashionable.

Theres bugger all point having issues about it - that's how it is!

PFR says he sings like Al Bowly (sounds weird to me, but fair enough!) - case in point. If that's what happens naturally when you open your gob, don't let anybody have issues about it......do your own thing!

Also people have to do what turns them on. I was a great admirer of Tony Capstick. He once told me that the first few years of his singing, he tied himself in knots trying to sound like the Dubliners. It got him started though. the Dubs inspired him to have a go, and that's worth something, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 11:07 AM

Sudden flash of the late Sid Vicious singing Love is the Sweetest Thing segueing into Buddy Can you Spare a Dime?

The Sex Pistols and the Al Bowlly Songbook.....

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Flash Company
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 11:08 AM

PFR, hope you haven't suffered as I did from a family who said 'You can't sing, you sound like an old crow!', it took years and an encounter with Pete Seeger to make me see otherwise.
After that I just opened my mouth and let it rip, and, yes, there were times when I sounded like someone else, Noel Coward on occasion, but what the hell, enjoy yourself is what it's all about.

FC

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Kampervan
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 11:51 AM

Hi there guest 'punkfolk rocker'

The thread that you have started has generated some of the best comment that I've ever read on a Mudcat thread.

Namely - stop comparing yourself to other people. Listen to them, enjoy them, then sing they way that you want to, the way that you do, just naturally.

None of the great folkies copied someone else. Jeannie Robertson, Peter Bellamy, Stan Hugill, Cyril Tawney, the list goes on. They didn't copy, they were.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 01:43 PM

I have been a professional folk singer for over thirty years,Iwould advise you to listen to a lot of traditional/folk contemporary music,listen to source singers [Phil Tanneris agood example]but dont consciously mimic.
I am Dick Miles,I sound like myself,not Peter Bellamy,MartinCarthy,what is the point of imitating someone else.
Be yourself,and the if you are going to accompany youself,find your own style.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 01:49 PM

Mike Waterson, Lal Waterson, Norma Waterson....

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 01:54 PM

Flash - had the same thing, plus a 'friend' who always had a critcism of my voice.

Kendall has been very supportive and extremely generous with positive criticism and accompanying me on the guitar even though he can't sing himself now. I also attended a couple of workshops at folk festivals on better use of the voice, which were very useful. I was lucky enough to get together with Lisa Null recently and she gave me some very good advice.

PFR - if you can afford it see if you can find a voice coach who is also a folkie and just have a couple of sessions to see what might help. I know that the help I have had has improved my voice a lot.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Bert
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 02:11 PM

It's very difficult when you learn a song by listening to somebody else sing it. You automatically find yourself copying them.

But it's something you probably want to try to overcome 'cos there are just too many Bob Dylan soundalikes out there already.

What I do is, after I've learned the song, I'll talk myself through the lyrics a few times until it's my voice that comes through. It is hard work though and it doesn't always completely work.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 02:23 PM

Sing with the voice you have and consider yourself lucky - I sound like Ethel Merman.
SINS

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 02:34 PM

No, you don't, SINS. You sound like your own wonderful self, and your voice uniquely and perfectly suits the songs you sing.

Dani

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 02:39 PM

'there are just too many Bob Dylan soundalikes'

well they don't turn up round here very often, bert.

I go to a dozen or so folk clubs regularly and I can only think of one singer that comes within a mile of Dylan, and a thrill runs through the audience when he's known to be in the club.

Martin Carthy - his fans are usually too dim to grasp that what he does (accompanied and unaccompanied) is actually difficult. It takes a lot of practice and concentration - you can't do it reading the words. I've yet to see a Carthy wannabe really set an audience on its heels, like the man himself.

I suppose you could say that about every school of singer though. I've seen one bloke get a round of applause for reading the words of Crystal Chandeliers in a style that was modelled on singing, I suppose. And if I had a quid for every traddie audience that giggled politely through some git reading The MoleCatcher from an exercise book - I'd have more than a tenner. I don't tend to go back to those places too often, but they don't change - I have found.

Really though, whoever floats your boat, it doesn't matter. Its better for you spiritually than sitting at home watching telly. Take your exercise book......if you must.

Get up and sing us one, tonight!

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 02:59 PM

Actually I think Dani has made a point. Sing the songs that suit your voice and of course sing what you enjoy.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:30 PM

You don't need to listen to no traditional singers....try recording yourself...leave it a week...then listen. You'll realize how good you sound!

See you at a floor spot or open mike session soon!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:42 PM

Trying to sound like someone else is a mistake. Deliberately trying to develop a "style" is a mistake. When you do that, you can't help but wind up sounding phony, and you can never be any more that a second-rate imitation of someone else.

Try* to sing the songs you want to do straight. Just sing the words naturally (don't try for any accent or dialect) and sing the words on the right notes without fancying them up or embellishing them. Too darned many singers these days sing as if they don't know what the right note is at any given point in a song, and it's like they're groping around for it!).

Birds don't seem to have these problems. They just open their little beaks and let 'er rip!

Don Firth

*No, that's wrong. Don't "try." Just do it!

Do or not do! There is no "try!"
                                     —Yoda

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Uncle Boko
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:53 PM

"middle class assholes"

Don't show your working class self up lad.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 04:36 PM

"middle class assholes"

Don't show your working class self up lad. "

I agree, that's me being a putz. What is the point of listening to one sort of singer. I''m pretty sure Mike Waterson wouldn't want you to do that. Listen to everything...jazz, rock, folk. Try and take pleasure in whatever it has to offer.

We won't move the world forwards by closing off our minds, or our ears.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:12 PM

I still don't really understand your problem, WLD - I can't help thinking that carrying chip-on-your-shoulder about people who like to sing traditional songs is a very strange chip to carry (even though there are some crap singers of traditional songs around, I would be the first to admit).

On the other hand (to rather overdo anatomical metaphors, I suppose)some very wise words from Don Firth. Do you think all those 'living tape-recorders' out there are listening, Don?

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 06:19 PM

I'm not sure I have a chip on my shoulder. I rather enjoy a good interpreter of traditional material. As I say, loved the work of the late Tony rose, Martin carthy, tony Capstick and many others

I suppose I've got to my late fifties and (as is the way) a lot of my friends are dying, and its becoming increasingly clear an even greater number of them will never feature on a BBC2 3 or 4 or even local radio Arts programme and/or folk programme, big festival stage, get an Arts council Subsidy, etc. And yet they committed their lives to an arts movement called the folk club movement.

But their work has not been 'in the tradition'. A tradition which seems to me largely a work of creative imagination. Certainly no one in my family ever sung these songs, danced these dances - and I remember relatives born in the 1850's.

And day after day on Mudcat, I get these various arseholes telling me that what my friends did was not folk music. It sort of rubs salt into the wounds on a daily basis.

And so I say to PFR (who is obviously under some duress to conform to some idiots idea of folk music) - be an Eddy Grundy, rather than a Tom Forest. Who gives a shit, for 98% of us theres no money in it - so do your own thing. Perhaps you'll get co-opted into the Copper Family or marry a Waterson. Then all these 'traditional' singers will be asking you for tips - about your tradition.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: stallion
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 07:26 PM

To a point WLD I might agree, if your comfortable singing in a foriegn tongue then so be it, I don't give a twopenny ***k . But it isn't the real you it's another persona, Ahhhhh what the hell, the only real message is   to be yourself and be comfortable with that.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:26 PM

The best advice I ever got was "join a regular choral group." It was excellent advice.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Scotus
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:40 PM

What an interesting thread! During the 60s I found myself adopting a singing 'style' that only seemed to exist inside folk-clubs (a bizarre sound!). Then I remembered my grandad singing simply for his own enjoyment (his favourites were 'the wee cooper o Fife' and 'the muckin o Geordie's byre') and I've spent the last 40+ years trying to take his simple approach (he died when I was 12 years old!!). I was also lucky to hear Jeannie Robertson, Belle Stewart, Jimmy McBeath and Davie Stewart (although I didn't fully appreciate them at the time - which explains my attempts at the bizarre style).

So I echo what's already been said - just sing with you own voice (but, as Cap'n Birdseye says - listen to some good old ones as well).

Jack

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:25 AM

"if your comfortable singing in a foriegn tongue then so be it,"


Comfort isn't the right word. Its what excites your imagination.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 07:59 AM

WLD,you might be interested to know that I listen to MissippiJohnHurt,Roscoe Holcomb,Memphis Minnie,Jimmie Rodgers Paul Robeson as well as HarryCox ,Sam Larner and Phil Tanner,the point is to listen to lots of source singers[ as well as revivalists],be they Blues or English Trad.
I am not a middle class asshole.I do not think that Derek Brimstone,or Ralph Mctell,JezLowe have not contributed anything to the folk revival.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 08:50 AM

I've never heard any criticism of Jez Lowe.

But those of us whose styles are comparable to Ralph and Derek - get very short shrift. All kinds of basic cooperation is routinely witheld.

I think most of us have had to work as musicians outside the folk world.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:51 AM

Wld ,[allkinds of basic coperation are routinely witheld]by whom, not by me,I used to book Brimstone when I ran a folk club.
Unaccompanied traditional singers have the same problem that i think you are describing, as well[Dartford Folk club].some clubs have definite booking policies[those that generally book the likes of DBrimstone are not going to book KevinMitchell].,and vice versa.
it is adouble edged sword,it cuts bothways.so stop being paranoid.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 01:43 PM

I'm hardly talking about club's booking policies. That is a personal choice of clubs.

Really you can't understand the situation, if you haven't experienced it first hand. Too many of my colleagues face(d) the same situation for it to be a solo paranoid delusion. the sensible ones threw in the towel - just got out of the folk arena. Many got out of this country with it awful class system.

Anyway I know what I've lived through, it makes no damn difference to me - I'm old and retired. But there must be some reason why there are no songs telling of the lives WE have lived. Not bloody drivers of steam engines, shepherds, jolly plough boys and collier laddies - US!

That's why you can't bear to listen to English folksongs with the natural voice of PFR. It has to be done with a phoney accent - like the tradition itself.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: GUEST,emily s
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 01:48 PM

PFR,
Be careful NOT to sing with a sound that is pleasing to you inside your own head. What a singer hears is so different than what the audience hears. Set up a recording session with decent equipment that can capture the reality of the sound outside your head. Experiment with how you are singing and listen immediately for feedback. Developing your natural voice is always best physically. Maybe you'll have to realize that certain song types just aren't for you, or maybe you'll realize you don't care and will be comfortable singing them any way.

I've heard local singers sing songs that they've clearly learned from famous singers off of recordings. When these local singers sing those songs, something is missing and just isn't right. When the song was learned from someone live and they've had to learn the song by singing it into themselves rather than repeated listening to the CD, then their natural voice takes over and the song becomes theirs. So much better...
Best of luck
Emily

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: GUEST,teachers pest
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:22 PM

Sing songs that suit your voice or in a style that works.Just because you like a song it doesn't mean it will suit the voice.Go for it whatever you feel like listening to or singing.WLD is spot on with how he is not as blinkered as the few.

Subject: RE: Everytime I try to sing folk songs..
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:13 PM

"WLD is spot on with how he is not as blinkered as the few."

Does this mean that you agree with WLD?