BS: Scooter...FREE!

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 03:17 AM

Ebbie: I acknowledged your losses, earlier. It is apparent from each of your contributions that you're either not reading the whole thread or that you are skimming through it.
Take your time. Read it and give a little thought to your responses.
I can wait.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 02:39 AM

Jim Lad, talk about being insulting! The 3500 plus Americans who have died over there are imo just as a great a loss as the six that you have lost.

And let's face it: You have no idea of what the rest of us are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 02:25 AM

Don: Before I reply to any of the others, let me say that so far you are the only individual with whom I have had any contact who is doing enough. In fact, if I was to say "Everybody, please do what Don's doing". that would be a sufficient answer in itself. Furthermore, If they all did as much as you, it would have been fixed long ago. Please, keep it up.

Molly: The attacks were perpetrated by (mostly) Saudi Arabians. You have Bush's word that they were connected to Al Qaeda & were trained by Bin Laden.
After 911 nobody asked "What do the Saudis have against America?" and still, nobody is asking. (This is where most took their eye off the ball)
Instead they decided to launch their attack on the training camps and in so doing, completely unraveled the infrastructure of a society about which we understand very, very little. You never did find out why the attacks took place.
The mission was granted approval by NATO and several countries participated in the destruction of Afghanistan. They were not your enemy and by now, have been all but forgotten.
I'll ignore your last paragraph except to say... If your political representative does not have an office where you can march in and bend his/her ear then just exactly what kind of a democracy do you have?
Ebbie: I could not live under the oppressive rule of a British (English) Government so I left. Fortunately, The Scottish Assembly & Gerry Adams have the matter well in hand, on both fronts. Problem solved. That's entirely different from your situation. Again, I'll ignore the last paragraph.
Kat: Don't pull your punches so much. I'll still love you. As for demonstrations; by now you should be having so many that "Sunday" should be changed to "Demonstraday".
This whole "Scooter" thing, just two days before the deaths of six Canadian soldiers is a disgusting insult to those who have just made the ultimate sacrifice to satisfy the agenda of your president.
I'm giving you a view from the outside but I'm getting the sense that you don't have much of an appetite for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: mrdux
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 01:59 AM

on a lighter note:

The Ballad of Scooter Libby
        (to the tune of The Wreck of the Old 97, or Charley on the MTA)

Let me tell you a story
'Bout a guy named Scooter
And this story it has a point.
He was Cheney's lieutenant,
Took a fall for his bosses
And got thirty months in the joint.

Chorus: But did he get to the pen?
        No he's out of the pen,
        'Cause he's one of Cheney's men.
        He showed no repentence
        He won't serve his sentence
        And he sure stayed out of the pen.

It was old Joe Wilson
Told us Bush was lyin'
When he said about old Saddam,
That "he's buyin' up parts
And we're sure he's tryin'
To build him a nucular bomb."

Then Dick Cheney said
"We're gonna get Joe Wilson
He can't talk about us that way.
We can get at his wife,
Tell the Wall Street Journal
That she works for the CIA."

When the FBI
Came to talk to Libby
'Bout who outed Valerie Plame,
Scooter wound up being
Just a little bit fibby,
Said he barely remembered her name.

ch.

Scooter was charged
with obstruction of justice
for his bits of dishonesty
He was was tried and convicted
He was sent off to prison
Just as sad as he could be.

But then W. said:
"I sure like that Scooter
And I do hate to see his pain,
So I'll do him a favor,
Since I am the Commuter."
And Scooter walks free once again.

ch.

Now listen my friends
All across the nation
To the moral that ends this tale:
You can break any law for this
Administration
And you'll never ever end up in jail.

Final ch: And will you go to the pen?
           No you'll be out of the pen,
           If you're one of Cheney's men.
           You can show no repentence
           You won't serve your sentence
           And you'll sure stay out of the pen.



Happy 4th of July.

michael

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:28 PM

Jimdarlin'...please don't speak to us in generalities. It's as if one of us said we wanted all Canadians to quite saying "eh?" at the end of each sentence! (Tongue firmly in cheek!)

You are preaching to the choir.

There are newscasters here, who list the number of dead from this horrible war and also list their names every night. AND, there are also newscasts which relate news from other countries, including Canada. Besides that many Americans get their news online these days where we have access to all kinds of other countries' news. My condolences on the further loss of Canadian lives and those of anyone else in Iraq. Each death diminishes humankind.

I would prefer to see huge demonstrations in the streets here, BUT I do think it would play right into the shrub's hands and bring about martial law that would make the 60's look tame. For now, we work within the system.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:15 PM

Thanks, Terry!

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:09 PM

I normally try to keep out of Political stuff in here , but feel constrained to comment in this case ! Jim - You are preaching to the converted ! There are a few Bush supporters on this site , but as a resident of UK , I get the feeling that they are a minority of Mud Cat Posters . So telling the Anti Bush people that they should be anti bush is a little bit of a waste of time .

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:07 PM

Azizi linked the new order from the judge, but omitted from the quote a comment at the site:

"As a special bonus, make sure you check out footnote 1. Hahahahahahahahaha!"

The pdf appears to be one of those "new-fangled" special feature things that blocks copying portions of the text, but my retyping of the "footnote" is:

"1. If either party believes that it would be helpful to solicit clarification from the White House regarding the President's position on the proper interpretation of § 3683 in light of his Grant of Executive Clemency, they are encouraged to do so."

In other words, fat chance the &#@% knows what he did or what he intended to do?

I do not get the impression that the judge is pleased with this disposition, but I may be wrong of course. The entire constuction of the order seems ... "unctuously polite?"

John

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 09:29 PM

Jim Lad, you said that you don't understand what I'm getting at. I'll be blunter. You are telling us to do something (although you don't spell out what. You know why? Because you don't have any answers). What I was trying to bring home to you is that YOU didn't stay 'home' to fix what you considered objectionable - or return home to do the same when you were older. Where do you get off telling Americans what to do?

Short of waging armed rebellion - which besides having huge ramifications would be counterproductive- there is not a whole lot we can do that we are not already doing. As Don Firth said- which you ignore as being of no consequence - we are trying to wake up the people so that when the time comes there will be no doubt of where we stand.

Until then, buzz off.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 08:45 PM

I have to second Molly on that, Jim.

A very wise person once said, "If someone wants to hand you a slimy slug, you don't have to reach out your hand and take it." Thus it is with your "you," Jim. I don't accept it.

I assume that when you say "you," you mean me personally (and every other American reading this thread). Okay, you tell me that I (me, personally, since that's what the second person singular means) am responsible for the Bush administration being in office. Okay, I actively campaigned for Gore in 2000 and for Kerry in 2004 (I would have preferred Kucinich, but he was out of the running in the final race). I spent a great deal of time, energy, and money on both campaigns, attending caucuses, making phone calls, writing letters, everything I was asked to do, was able to do, could think of doing, or am particularly good at.

What should I—and all my fellow campaign workers—have done that I didn't do? Where did we go wrong? What more could we have done?

And now, as the 2008 campaign approaches, I am ready to do it all again. But since you seem to think that I (we) did it all wrong, what are your suggestions?

And in the meantime, I am constantly in touch with (bugging and badgering) my legislators about various issues. What am I doing wrong? What should I be doing in addition to or instead of?

Generalities are not good enough. I want specifics.

Don Firth

P. S. I hope you're not suggesting that we launch a bloody revolution. With an election in the offing and with Bush's approval rating in the toilet, I don't see that things are that bad—yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: harpmolly
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 08:15 PM

Jim:

Do correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will ;)) but didn't the invasion of Afghanistan stem from the fact that Bin Laden was operating out of there, and the Taliban were supposedly sheltering him? I'm NOT defending it, but just calling you on your logic.

As I understood it, Bin Laden is an *exile* from Saudi Arabia. Why would it have been useful to attack a country that no longer housed the 9/11 mastermind, rather than his base of operation and the government playing host to it? (Not that ANY of this bullshit makes sense...) Again, I don't support it, but I at least see the logic. Not to mention that if we'd focused on finishing what we started in Afghanistan rather than stretching ourselves thin in this whole Iraq fiasco, we might have created some sort of real concrete resolution. Sigh.

One other comment, O Wise Sage. What sort of "action", exactly, are you proposing we undertake here? You harp on and on about our lack of action, but offer no suggestions. There are thousands of people working hard to see that Bush/Cheney/Rove/etc. are brought to justice through what channels are available to us, which aren't many due to the stranglehold they have on our country. And if you're insinuating we should be taking our country back by force, ooooh, yes, that's going to go over well. I can't think of a better way to guarantee these assholes a permanent power base than to create an uprising they can stamp out with martial law, giving them all the carte blanche they need to ride roughshod over what's left of our freedoms.

Get real, or quit baiting us.

Molly

P.S. I know, I know...don't feed the trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:56 PM

Yeah.

Over sixty Canucks killed so far. No end in sight.

I do NOT understand WHY the political leadership does NOT turn JTF2 loose with instructions to deal with Taliban LEADERSHIP. IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS.

Bloody war of attrition. And our kids are dying because of it. FUCKERS!

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:53 PM

To clean up the mess.
The Hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
Keep your eye on the ball folks.
It's one freaky carnival show.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:37 PM

"Today, six Canadian soldiers were killed, cleaning up your mess in Afghanistan."

Canucks are there at the request of NATO.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:35 PM

"Timing is everything" ..... or so they say.
Yesterday, prompted by your benign response to a blatant disregard for the law by your president, I tried to light a fire under you. By coincidence, one of your own, a newscaster of whom I know nothing as far as his credibility goes, tried to do the same.
Your response to me was predictable, fairly polite and aside from the "English" remark, pretty well above the belt.
Today, the threads are bare. You all have some kind of celebration to attend and sitting by the computer is understandably, not on today's agenda.
The rumblings over the "Scooter" thing have died down and tomorrow you'll all be back into your regular routines and this little episode will be just one more on a long list of grievances, destined to be forgotten.
I glanced at this thread this morning, gave it a little thought and walked away. Where's the point? No matter what I or anyone else says, you are going to sing the same old song. "Don't blame me. I didn't vote for him."
Something else happened today though. Something horrible by any standards but something that won't reach your living rooms because your news media doesn't see the point in weighing you down with foreign affairs that don't effect you. (Directly)
It is however, enough to make me want to give it one more try.
So here it is.
There are three hundred million Americans. If the statistics are correct, 49% of you disapprove of your presidents behavior & 51% of you are okay with it. Your economy is in the toilet. Your reputation is shattered and (If our attitudes towards Germans are anything to go by) will remain shattered for at least the next fifty years.
All of you who are above the age of reason, Black, White, Hispanic, Indigenous & Visible Minorities are responsible for what your government does. You are not oppressed by 51% of the population and your President is only one man. You Deified him when you swore him into office. That's your problem. You are responsible for the actions of your government and that is the way many of us see you.
Today, I am tired of hearing "There's nothing we can do" again.
Today, I have had enough of all of the excuses.
Today, six Canadian soldiers were killed, cleaning up your mess in Afghanistan.
Happy independence day!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: harpmolly
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 02:18 PM

"He spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to maintain the faith in the jury system..." Are you ^&^%&^$$%$# kidding me???

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 11:43 AM

Martha Stewart ought'a sue

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:47 AM

Molly, Jim, and John, you are welcome. I think it is one of the finest pieces I've read in quite some time. John, I agree, it should be engraved on the wall AND people should read it out loud and proudly!

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:35 AM

How is Libby commutation playing in polls?

SurveyUSA conducted a quick, automated survey to gauge response to President Bush's decision to commute former White House aide Scooter Libby's prison sentence.

According to the poll:

17% say Bush should have pardoned Libby completely.
60% say Bush should have left the judge's prison sentence in place.
32% of Republicans agree with the President's decision, compared to 14% of Democrats and 20% of Independents.
26% of Republicans say Libby should have been pardoned completely, compared to 21% of Independents and 8% of Democrats.
Conservatives split evenly: 31% say Libby should have been pardoned. 35% say the judge's sentence should have been left in place.
31% agree with the President's decision to commute the prison sentence, but to leave the fine and conviction in place. Reaction to the President's decision may evolve over time.

A Pollster.com analysis of the poll observes that "the commentary going into this action by Bush stressed the dilemma he faced between satisfying the base and further offending independents and moderates. So far, the evidence is that the action he took has failed even to please a majority of the Republican and conservative base."

Posted by Chris Grygiel at July 3, 2007 1:34 p.m.
Category: political polls
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/seattlepolitics/archives/117517.asp

-snip-

And, it should be noted that this survey was taken before Judge Walton issued his latest Libby court order.

I think that news is likely to have some effect those poll numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:27 AM

New developments in the Scooter Libby case:

from: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/3/222342/4056

Judge Walton Issues New Libby Court Order
by pontificator ; Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 07:25:36 PM PDT

"It appears that President Bush made a serious mistake in his Commutation Order. As justification for invalidating Libby's prison sentence, he pointed out that Libby would still be subject to two years probation, a harsh sentence, Bush says (rolls eyes).

Oops!

As Judge Walton just noticed, it looks like Libby won't even serve probation, since, under the federal system, "supervised release," as it is called, can only follow an actual prison sentence.

Talk about incompetence. Bush can't even get Obstruction of Justice right!

New Court Order here (warning -- pdf):

http://sentencing.typepad.com/ "

-snip-

Also, see this comment from that diary:

Will the defense move to vacate the sentence, on the basis that Bush's clemency order leaves a part of the sentence (supervised release) in violation of the Constitution?

IANAL, but it seems like the WH lawyers left Walton in no-man's land.

While this seems to me to be WH incompetence, and not a brilliant plan on the legal folks in the WH, the bottom line seems that Bush is going to have to commute the supervised release, to avoid some crazy legal wranglings...

by 2lucky on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:08:35 PM PDT

-snip-

In addition, here's an excerpt from an article about Bush's commutation of Libby's sentencing:

LIBBY'S SENTENCE NOT USUALLY LONG

"Though Bush calls the 30-month prison term 'excessive,' records show defendants convicted of similar crimes served jail time."

By Richard B. Schmitt and David G. Savage,[LA]Times Staff Writers
July 4, 2007


..."Whether Libby would have to serve probation was in some doubt Tuesday. The sentencing judge in the case, U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton, said in court papers that it was unclear whether a defendant who had not done jail time could still be subject to supervisory release. He asked the lawyers to advise him on the issue."

White House Press Secretary Tony Snow, speaking with reporters two hours before Bush made his comments, said the president spent "weeks and weeks consulting with senior members of this White House about the proper way to proceed."

"He spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to maintain the faith in the jury system, and he did that by keeping intact the conviction and some of the punishments," Snow said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-na-libby4jul04,0,6710317.story?coll=la-home-center

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 02:20 AM

Thanks Kat: Looks like this Keith Olbermann guy's been following me around and picking up some pointers.
Ebbie: I'm having some difficulty following your last two submissions. Help me out, will you?

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 01:13 AM

Use the "text HERE" link that Kat posted above at:

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: katlaughing - PM
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 10:20 PM

Let the first page load and then go to the bottom and click "Print This."

Cancel the printer popup.

You should have the complete transcript. (all 3 pages)

Copy and paste to your WP of choice. (I generally Copy, then Edit|PasteSpecial|Formated Text - it works well at this site.)

The whole thing is worth reading.

ENGRAVE IT ON YOUR WALL, and read it aloud, in chorus with your friends, today, July 4, 2007.

(Be prepared to explain it, perhaps, to some of your friends.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: harpmolly
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 12:33 AM

kat...thank you so much for posting that. It was AWESOME. I've got a major case of the tinglies. Really good stuff.

Happy Fourth,

Molly

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 12:20 AM

I just posted the entire text of Olbermann's address in this thread. Fantastic. I hope millions hear it and do something!

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 12:09 AM

Makes a guy wonder if he read Zola.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:59 PM

Here's an excerpt of Keith Olbermann's special Comment 7/3/2007

BUSH, CHENEY SHOULD RESIGN
...

I accuse you, Mr. Bush, of lying this country into war

I accuse you of fabricating in the minds of your own people, a false implied link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11.

I accuse you of firing the generals who told you that the plans for Iraq were disastrously insufficient.

I accuse you of causing in Iraq the needless deaths of 3,586 of our brothers and sons, and sisters and daughters, and friends and neighbors.   

I accuse you of subverting the Constitution, not in some misguided but sincerely-motivated struggle to combat terrorists, but to stifle dissent.

I accuse you of fomenting fear among your own people, of creating the very terror you claim to have fought.

I accuse you of exploiting that unreasoning fear, the natural fear of your own people who just want to live their lives in peace, as a political tool to slander your critics and libel your opponents.

I accuse you of handing part of this Republic over to a Vice President who is without conscience, and letting him run roughshod over it.

And I accuse you now, Mr. Bush, of giving, through that Vice President, carte blanche to Mr. Libby, to help defame Ambassador Joseph Wilson by any means necessary, to lie to Grand Juries and Special Counsel and before a court, in order to protect the mechanisms and particulars of that defamation, with your guarantee that Libby would never see prison, and, in so doing, as Ambassador Wilson himself phrased it here last night, of becoming an accessory to the obstruction of justice.

...

Click http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19588942/page/2/ for the complete text of this POWERFUL comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:54 PM

John, you keep insisting on bringing logic to the table. It's becoming very annoying . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:46 PM

Does anyone find it slightly ironic that for the most part those who applaud this commutation of sentence for Libby are the same ones who killed the attempt to provide any kind of reasoned control of immigration on the sole premise:

ANY AMNESTY FOR CRIMINALS IS INTOLERABLE AND UNACCEPTABLE.

?

Or am I just misreading things again?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 10:31 PM

When in the course of human events.......is it time?

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 10:20 PM

Sorry if this has already been posted, but I think everyone should listen to Keith Olbermann on Countdown, tonight, on MSNBC...you may watch and listen HERE. You can read some of the text HERE, but not the whole thing. WOW is all I can say!

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 10:09 PM

I might add, fwiw, that the UK bears a certain amount of responsibility in the Bush affairs. In pre-war Germany, if Germans en masse had said: You can't do this!, their government would have had to back down.

If Blair had said to Bush: You can't do this!, guess what?

So Jim Lad, you have a project laid out for you; I'm sure you won't hesitate, because you already know what has to be done and that you're just the one to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 10:06 PM

Oh- Jim Lad, you forgot to give us your travel itinerary.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 08:45 PM

Today's headline....'Pardon Not Ruled Out'.

Who's taking the bet money?

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 08:45 PM

Wel, gol danged...

According the Washington Post today Bush made this decsion all by himself...

So much for the Post being that "liberal rag" the righties love to say it is...

Of course Bush didn't make this decision by himslef...

What??? Do he think he is actaully the president, 'er what...

LOL...

President Cheney made this decision...

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 08:42 PM

Too many "Bars". Story of my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 08:41 PM

Yup! I deliberately chose to phrase it that way. Whether you personally voted for the eejit or not, makes absolutely no difference at this point. The man is aiming at $100 per barrel and has absolutely no regard for human life and dignity. The days of washing your hands with a bar of "I didn't vote for him" bar of soap are long gone. Hence "You".

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 08:35 PM

Thanks, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 07:40 PM

Guys: DING DING

Jim, I don't necessarily know that you and I disagree about Canadian politics. However, when you say, "President George Bush is doing exactly what you elected him to." I'd like to suggest that this back and forth would ease up in its tone were that to be phrased "President George Bush is doing exactly what he was elected to do." Ther may be at best a half dozen folks on Mudcat who voted for Bush. The people you are talking with ain't them.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 07:39 PM

I'll do that when I get home, Don. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 07:37 PM

Jim, I admire you greatly as a singer and musician. But in my post of 03 Jul 07 - 04:33 p.m., I believe I made my position abundantly clear.

If you're under the impression that Americans are merely sitting on their hands and doing nothing, I suggest that you pull up google and type "Impeach Bush" in the search box and see what comes up. Take note of the number of "hits."

In the meantime, here's an overview:   CLICKY.

And this, incidentally, is not the only effort being made. There is a huge bundle of law-suits pending against Bush and members of his administration, not to mention a storm of ethics probes and investigations.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 07:13 PM

Sorry Greg. We cross posted there.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 07:11 PM

Fair enough. Tell that to the thousands upon thousands of Iraqi victims' families. Tell it to the thousands who mourn in Afghanistan. Tell it to Saudi Arabia where the hijackers came from. Rustle up as many Dylan songs as you can cram into one set and jump down the throat of anyone who offers an opinion other than your own but don't dare do a thing about Bush and more importantly, don't ever say again that there's nothing you can do about it because it's not that you can't.....

President George Bush is doing exactly what you elected him to.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 07:08 PM

I predict that the full pardon will come at the traditional
time, the waning days of the Bush administration. It would have
been too cataclysmic, too dangerous to Republican futures now.

The question is, will Libby be able to delay the fine until such
time as it happens, and will he get the quarter mill back when
it does? Alternatively, will he get a lucrative consulting job
for some PAC, with a salary which just neatly covers that expense?

Once he's pardoned, he will likely be able to re-gain his license
to practice law. Until then, he'll be a 'consultant.' Should be
plenty of that work available in quiet corners during an election
year.

Ultimately, he'll be handsomely rewarded for having 'taken the
bullet' for the administration.

I'd bet he wasn't left for a minute to believe that he'd serve
any jail time. This was part of a plan, with every contingency
covered, and it hasn't played all the way out yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 06:38 PM

Barry is making a strong point, Jim Lad. You say you were young and so you ran, you ducked out. Presumably the conditions in Britain have not appreciably improved since then- why then, now that you are older, haven't you moved back in order to fight for what you believe is right?

I agree with Barry. To sit there in your own little haven and throw stones at us for not doing all that you think we should be doing - when you did not, makes your opinions not worth taking seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 06:05 PM

I was young. If I had chosen one of the other options, I doubt that I'd be a free man today. Is that all you got from what I wrote?
Come on Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 05:59 PM

So Jim you run off when you could choose to make a stand like US Americans you accuse of doing nothing who've fought against the likes of Bush & company & paint us all with one brush. You have a nerve throwing stones from a country that's not our own.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 05:48 PM

Peace: We seem to disagree on all aspects of Canadian politics but as you say "It's applesauce".
"English" is way below the belt. I was born in Scotland and as such should be considered a Scot. My grandparents & great grandparents left Ireland to escape poverty & the troubles and there is in fact, not one ounce of Scottish blood coursing through my hardening arteries.
Now let me tell you a story.

I was well into my fourth summer, playing the "Yellow Cello" in Cape Breton. On a break one night I was approached by an American patron who asked "What do you think of our new President?".
After much convincing on his part that he had a genuine interest in the opinion of a foreigner, I agreed to answer the question, no holds barred and I still remember my answer........
"You don't have a President. This eejit won the position in court and that in itself is an assault on democracy. George Bush is currently travelling across Europe, insulting every nation with snide remarks and unfair trade practices thereby creating ill will across the world. He refers to himself as the "Leader of the free world", a phrase which angers everyone who is not American" I went on to explain that in my opinion, you've only had two great presidents in my lifetime. One was assassinated in Texas and the other was recently assassinated in the Press.
I finished with this. "If the CIA does not take this man out or if those in power do not fabricate some illness in order that Mr Bush's tenure may be cut short then there will be a major catastrophe." He looked stunned and asked if I really believed that, to which I replied that you cannot declare yourself "Ruler of the Free World", treat every other nation with contempt and walk away Scot free. "There will be a major catastrophe".
That was two weeks before the September 11 attacks.
Sad as that day was, it was not entirely unpredictable. If a wee folk singer in Nova Scotia could see it coming then you bet your life that the administration could. I've often wondered if that fellow remembers our conversation and why he was asking.
To my point. To say that the U.S. is "Insular" is to say that the Reverend Ian Paisley is having a little difficulty accepting "The One True Catholic and Apostolic Church".
The person who spoke to me that day, expressed a genuine interest in what outsiders think about his President.
You really, really need to hear what outsiders think of you right now and that can't be done if everything is sugar coated and smothered in politeness for you.

As for my being in Canada... I touched on that in the "Which Irish Songs are Offensive?" thread recently. In one short sentence though; As a young man, I could not accept the bigotry which is so ingrained in the British system. Emigration to Canada was my least harmful option and one of the few, correct decisions I've made in my lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM

Peace pretty well summed it up when he said, "These guys are slicker than goose shit in the rain." Through a combination of convoluted logic and shear arrogance, the Bush administration has managed to stay within the letter of the law while violating its spirit on more issues than any other five administrations lumped together.

A few examples:

1) Using the "war on terror", a purely metaphorical usage of the word "war", as a basis for assuming powers granted to a president only in wartime. I don't remember Lyndon Johnson using unauthorized wiretaps to fight the "war on poverty".

2) Staging an unprovoked invasion of a foreign country and assuming additional wartime powers. I believe the laws giving presidents special powers during wartime were intended to aid in defense against aggressors, not to aid in being the aggressor.

3) Using signing statements to effectively ignore provisions of laws passed by Congress.

All the above are technically quite legal. They violate no laws. They merely disembowel the spirit in which the laws were written.

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 04:33 PM

Thanks, Peace. You have the right of it.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."      —Margaret Mead

Well, sometimes that small group (or even a very large group) of thoughtful, committed citizens lack, by a very small margin, the simple numbers to bring that change about—at least in the first few attempts.   

What are those who blame all Americans for Bush advocating? That we who did not support Bush just don sack-cloth, heap ashes on our heads, declare ourselves abject failures, and give up? Not my way! And not the way of many people I know!

To condemn all Americans for putting the Bush administration in office is just plain wrong, and it does a gross disservice to those who tried to prevent it, and to those who are working hard to see that a similar thing doesn't happen again. To claim that "you" (all Americans) are to blame for the Bush administration is unfair and disingenuous. It's easy for those in the privilege position of sitting on the sidelines (such as some citizens—but not all, of course—of other countries, who don't have the responsibility of participating in American politics) to sit back a smugly take pot-shots at Americans in general when large numbers of Americans have made heroic efforts to keep the situation from becoming what it became—but who failed most definitely through no fault of their own.

Consider this:    assigning collective guilt to an entire group of people because of the actions of some of them is cut from the same cloth as bigotry and racism. That's the same kind of thinking that allows those of the terrorist mentality to kill innocent civilians. They blame an entire group for the actions of a few.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Scooter...FREE!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 04:32 PM

Wesley-

I belive Jim Ladd is from British Columbia as Peace in his post implied but I share your general frustration with cross-the-board criticism of our imperfect and dangerous nation.

Bill Clinton is beginning to look like a saint, compared with GWB.

Charley Noble