Pakistani Music on World Routes

Subject: Pakistani and Indian Music on World Routes
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 10:30 AM

Fans of ethnic music might like to know that BBC Radio 3's World Routes starts a series of four programmes on the music of Pakistan and India this coming Saturday, July 7th. 15-00 hrs British Summer Time. This is to tie in with the two countries' 60th anniversary of independence.

The series kicks off with a condert from Leicester's Darbar festival and will feature Pandit Premukurar Mallick, vocals, and Ustad Shahid Parvez, sitar.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: GUEST,antiworldmusicrootsman
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:18 AM

Oh christ, I hope we dont have that Bollywood racket although the sitar is just as bad.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:35 AM

Just the sort of ignorant, racist claptrap we have come to expect from certain backwoods morons limited in brain and musical understanding.

Last week I posed an Announce about the Bhundu Boys on R4. At this rate I suppose I should be thankful that I got no replies.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:35 AM

Well if you don't like it don't listen

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:38 AM

Sorry, that last remark was addressed to antiworldmusicrootsman, whoever he is.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:45 AM

On I expect it was just a logged out Uncle Bonkers or one of his low-associates/pseudonyms who get a kick out of being offensive towards musicians of different colours.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: GUEST,antiworldmusicrootsman
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:50 AM

Maybe I just dont like the music. i dont have to. racisism has nothing to do with it. i dont like opera,but that doesnt mean i dont like italians, does it?

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 03:19 AM

There are always those who are keen to spot racism whether it exists or not. I read somewhere that it can often be a fixation with subconscious guilt feelings about their own real feelings.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 09:17 AM

I have no problem with people not likng a particular sort of music. The problem I have is with people taking the opportunity to post here to tell us about the music they dislike!

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: paddymac
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 09:42 AM

Diane - You're wrong. There's no evidence that the guest with whom you disagree is "backwoods," either by location or attitude.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 09:54 AM

No I'm not.

Referring to music from Pakistan as 'Bollywood racket' and to the sitar as 'just as bad' is as ignorant as it is racist.

It is what you hear even to this day from uneducated and embittered old white blokes on northern council estates (and doubtless elsewhere) and you don't get much more stereotypically 'backwoods' than that.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 12:22 PM

I suppose this will run and run but

It is also what you hear even to this day from educated and embittered old white people in all kinds of places and you don't get much more stereotypically 'backwoods' than that.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 01:29 PM

As an old white person from a northern Council estate I find Ms Easby's comments as abusive as 'antiworldsmusicrootsman'. It would be far more useful to post here about music you find interesting or challenging, while recognising that it might not be to everyone's taste. And if you don't like certain music to say what it is about the music that you dislike, while recognising that other people may nt share your view. Now play nicely!

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 01:37 PM

Anyway here's a link to a YouTube video of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan the 'Emperor of Qawalls'.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: countrylife
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 04:41 PM

countrylife aka "educated old git from a council estate somewhere in the north"

*The problem I have is with people taking the opportunity to post here to tell us about the music they dislike!+

'apppens all the time dun it?

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 05:01 PM

Les from Hull, thanks for posting that link. That is the first time to my knowledge that I had ever heard Pakistani music. It's also the first time that I have ever heard of Qawwali and of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.

{Yes, I confess to being culturally deprived in many ways!}

That YouTube video [and the sometimes contentious comments that were posted to it] prompted me to do some googling about that artist and that type of music.

Here's an excerpt from the wikipedia on Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan:

Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan (Urdu: äÕÑÊ ÝÊÍ Úáì ÎÇŸ) (October 13, 1948 - August 16, 1997), a Pakistani musician, was primarily a singer of Qawwali, the devotional music of the Sufis (a mystical offshoot of Islam).

Traditionally, Qawwali has been a family business. Nusrat's family (originally from Afghanistan) has an unbroken tradition of performing qawwali for the last 600 years...His incredible voice and his complete mastery of the genre made him a superstar in the Indian subcontinent and the Islamic world. He sang mostly in Urdu and his native Punjabi, but also in Persian, Brajbhasha and Hindi. His qawwali output is almost evenly divided between Urdu and Punjabi, with a smattering of songs in the other languages. Nusrat was also one of the first South Asian singers to perform before large Western audiences...

Nusrat is responsible for the modern evolution of qawwali. Although not the first to do so, he popularized the blending of khayal singing and techniques with qawwali. This in short took the form of improvised solos during the songs using the sargam technique, in which the performer sings the names of the notes he is singing (for example, in western notation it would be "do re mi"). He also attempted to blend qawwali music with more western styles such as techno.

Nusrat's qawwali songs usually follow the standard form. A song begins with a short instrumental prelude played on the harmonium and tabla. Then the instruments stop, and the main singers (but not the chorus) launch into the alap, which establishes the raga, the tonal structure of the song. At this point, introductory poetic verses are sung. These are usually drawn not from the main song, but from other thematically related songs. The melody is improvised within the structure of the raga.

After the introductory verses, the main song starts, and the rhythmic portion of the song begins. The tabla and dholak begin to play, and the chorus aids and abets percussion by clapping their hands. The song proceeds in a call and response format. The same song may be sung quite differently by different groups. The lyrics will be essentially the same, but the melody can differ depending on which gharana or lineage the group belongs to. As is traditional in qawwali, Nusrat and the side-singers will interject alap solos ([[media:), and fragments of other poems or even improvised lyrics ([[media:). A song usually has two or three sets of refrains, which can be compared to the verse chorus structure found in western music. Songs last about 20 minutes on average, with a few lasting an hour or more.

Nusrat was noted for introducing other forms of improvisation into the style. From his classical music training, he would interject much more complex alap improvisations, with more vibrato and note bending. He would also interject sargam improvisations...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nusrat_Fateh_Ali_Khan

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 05:16 PM

By googling I also learned about this qawwali singer:

Aziz Mian was born as Abdul Aziz (Urdu: ÚÈÏ ÇáÚÒیÒ) on April 17, 1942 in Delhi, British India. The exclamation, "Mian" (Urdu: ãیÇŸ), which he often used in his Qawwalis, became part of his stage name. He began to introduce himself as Aziz Mian Mairthi. The word "Mairthi" refers to "Mairath", a town in India, from which he migrated to Pakistan at the age of five in 1947.
At the age of ten, in 1952, he began studying the art of Qawwali under the tutelage of Ustad Abdul Waheed. He received sixteen years of training at the Data Ganj Baksh School of Lahore, Punjab. Aziz Mian obtained M.S. degrees in Arabic, Persian, Urdu literature, and History from the University of Punjab, Lahore
Aziz Mian was one of the more traditional Pakistani Qawwals. His voice was raspy and powerful, yet this was not the sole reason for his success. Aziz Mian was not only a master musician but was also the only prominent Qawwal to write his own lyrics (though, like others, he also performed songs written by other poets).

...Aziz Mian's Qawwalis emphasised on chorus and on the main point of the Qawwali through repetition; very little attention was paid to the musical part of the Qawwali. Aziz Mian had a talent for reciting poetry to the effect that it touched the audience's hearts. He brought passion to his live performances. One of the trademarks of his stage performances was his habit of getting carried away and rising to his knees (from the normal sitting position) while reciting poetry in the middle of a Qawwali, losing contact with the microphone in the process...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziz_Mian

Here's a YouTube video of Aziz Mian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtWx-O32CfQ

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 05:49 PM

Aziz? No relation, is he?

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:00 PM

We're ALL related if you get right down to the real nitty gritty.

However....

The names Aziz [male] & Aziza [female]are common Arabic names. The name Azizi is a female Kiswahil {Swahili} form of that name.

See this information from http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Aziz

"The boy's name Aziz \a-ziz\ is of Arabic origin, and its meaning is "the All-Powerful". In Islam, one the ninety-nine attribute names of Allah. A familiar name in the Muslim world".

-snip-

Aziz; Aziza; and Azizi also are said to mean "dear" {as in precious}.

**

Since we're on the topic of name meanings, I found this information about the name Nusrat

"Nusrat Nos-rut M Arabic Victory; Help"

http://aaiil.org/text/muslimnames/muslimnamesn.shtml


-snip-

**

Also, see this excerpt from an online article:

WORD FOR WORD: Appropriate name Mansura —Khaled Ahmed
Sunday, February 19, 2006

"Nazareth as a place name seems to mean 'a place made safe', somewhat like Mansura. 'Nsr' as a root means 'rain over parched land'. When dry land is brought to life again by rain, the place is called 'mansurah'. Very appropriately, the headquarters of Jamaat-e-Islami in Lahore is called Mansura...

We have two Arabic roots possibly involved here. The first is a very fertile one and has given us a whole lot of useful Urdu words. Many popular names for persons have come from it. The root however has a very interesting meaning.

Nsr as a root means the falling of rain over parched land. When a desolate and dry land is brought to life again by rain, the place is called mansurah. Very appropriately, the headquarters of Jamaat-e-Islami in Lahore is called Mansura. Nazareth also means the same thing."...

By extension all the rivulets that help in the greening of a land are called nasirah. By extension it also means provision of food because a valley made green by rain will produce food. By another extension nsr means help.

When the Muslims migrated out of Makka and came to Madina they were called Muhajir. The people of Madina who came to their help and became their hosts were called Ansar. Anyone who comes to help is called nasir, which is a popular name. Those helped are Mansur and Mansura.

There is a whole string of names from the root nsr simply because the status of the Ansar of Madina was high in the eyes of the Prophet (peace be upon him). The Muslims learnt to attribute their victories to help from Allah. Thus, victory is nusrat. You can name your daughter Nusrah or Nusrat"...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C02%5C19%5Cstory_19-2-2006_pg3_4 Daily Times A New Voice For A New Pakistan







**

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:02 PM

Please excuse my poor cut & paste job in that last post.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: GUEST,antiworldmusicrootsman
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 09:37 AM

I like a lot of black music from America and Jamaica, but dislike African music. So how does that fit in to your theory of me being racist?

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 12:15 PM

It fits it perfectly with my theory of you being musically naive. There are so many different forms of African music that to say that you 'dislke African music' suggests that you haven't listened to it much. For instance, You say you like some Jamaian music, well what about African reggae musicians such as Alpha Blondy and Lucky Dube. It would be better to say something like 'I haven't heard any African music I've liked yet'. Then I might suggest some to listen to.

To call yourself 'antiworldmusicrootsman' just sounds to me that you are in some way predjuiced in your musical tastes - that you are not going to listen to Klezmer or Tuvan throat-singing.

There's a lot of crap music out there, but to make sweeping statements about the music of an entire continent...

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 01:26 PM

Thanks Azizi,

You have set my homework for a few weeks

Best wishes

Les

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 04:53 AM

Good points Les (from Hull) but I have to say that anything dubbed "world music roots etc" can elicit a mild groan from me. There is some wonderful stuff under such a banner but also, as you say, a bunch of crap too.

My mild groan is directed to those others who profess to love the music purely because it is produced by black or brown people, regardless of the quality, in order to impress on everyone just how non-racist they are being. Which probably comes from them having subconcious doubts about their real feelings about racial issues. The knee-jerk reaction to "antiworldmusicrootsman" seems to bear this out.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 10:29 AM

Well I just try to divide music up into 'stuff I like' and 'stuff I don't like'. I don't like the 'world music' label any more than I like the 'Celtic music' label, both are pretty meaningless (especially since the Celts died out long before the days of recorded music and I have yet to hear any 'off-world music'). They are simply labels used by the record industry. My local HMV now files all British Isles folk music under 'country'.

But I must confess that I like a lot of the stuff that comes to us under the 'world music' label, and I hope I don't make my selections based on any racist issues. I just dive into one the many 'various artists' CDs available and listen to the music, or I listen to one of the few radio programmes that play music from around the world. If I like a track I try to hear more from the artist(s) concerned, and then discover more about roots/influences/culture. Quite a lot of stuff these days comes as a fusion of different cultures anyway. And it isn't all produced by black or brown people, and I wouldn't necessarily know (or care about) that when I listen to music. One of my favourite tracks (discovered some years ago) is 'Maria Lando' by Susana Baca. She sings (wonderfully) in Spanish, and I had no idea that she was a black Peruvian.

I just can't understand why people bring up this thing about race when we discuss World Music.

Here's a link to BBC World Music so you listen to some of the radio stuff. Perhaps people can make up their own minds based on the stuff presented by such presenters as Andy Kershaw and Lucy Duran to whom I owe a personal vote of thanks.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 11:07 AM

I don't equate "World music" with "traditional music from around the world". Indeed, I have found that "world music from country X" often means their current pop music, and when you play it to traditional music fans from that very country they are just as likely to turn their noses up at it. In the case of World music from Greece, I found that half is traditional or in any case folk, and half is snigger-snoggers (to use my favourite of the Countess' descriptions)or "Vashtis" who can't cut it back home.

Me, I am interested in traditional music from all over the world, and have been fortunate enough to have had a decent exposure to such from several countries. Some of "world music" I find facile - other examples of it it can be very interesting. It's too wide a collection to be described with one adjective, or to be liked or disliked en masse.

As for the bouzouki - I hope no racists out there have anything bad to say about it, or I'll be down their throat before you can say "Zorba"! (Come, on, Diane, that was a tad extreme...)

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 11:25 AM

I just can't understand why people bring up this thing about race when we discuss World Music

I did because the OP made insulting and inappropriate remarks about 'Bollywood racket" and the sitar being "just as bad", and later compounded his ignorance by lumping all African music together as though it were a homogenous whole.

World Music (as any fule kno) is a marketing term coined at a series of meetings exactly 20 years ago of representatives of the main independent record labels dealing with international/roots music to help retailers stock and display it.

It was agreed that the term World Music would be used by all labels present to offer a new and unifying category for shop racking, press releases, publicity handouts and 'file under...' suggestions so that shops no longer had to worry about where to put those new Yemenite pop, Bulgarian choir, Zairean soukous or Gambian kora records.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 11:28 AM

Bouzoukis . . . that was a tad extreme

What was? That most people think they're Irish?
Believe me, they do.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 11:57 AM

:-)

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 11:58 AM

I play Afro-American blues on mine!

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:01 PM

This has turned into a fascinating and richly rewarding discussion in which insult seems to beget insult. I have only three comments to make.

1.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:03 PM

Sorry folks. The gremlins got me by the goolies for a second there. let's try again.

This has turned into a fascinating and richly rewarding discussion in which insult seems to beget insult. I have only three comments to make.

1. I hate the bouzouki, except when it's being used to play Greek music.

2.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:04 PM

Sorry folks. My computer's playing up and posting messages before I've finished writing them. Will everybody just remember to listen to the programme tomorrow?

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 04:30 PM

You should be able to listen to the programme for a up to a week afterwards on your computer by using the link I provided earlier.

Now Fred, you're just being beastly about bouzoukis to upset me aren't you? But as my 'bouzouki' has a different number of strings, a different shape and a different tuning to a proper Greek bouzouki, perhaps I should be calling it an octave flat-back mandolin or an eight-string Cittern! All is not always as it seems!

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 04:51 PM

First time I was introduced to Andy Irvine, just before he was coming on for his first set at St Albans, he winked and said: "Look George, in a minute I am going to call this thing a bouzouki, but you and I know better, eh?"

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 05:08 PM

Oh that's a good 'un, George! I'll remember that.

And in return, I'll mention how Christy Moore once described Andy to me. 'Oh Andy Irvine - the man that put the angst in Planxty!'

I feel privileged to share the same planet as those two.

Subject: RE: Pakistani Music on World Routes
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 05:37 PM

"What was? That most people think they're Irish?
Believe me, they do"
that's funny I've never met anyone who thought the bouzouki was Irish......