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trad singers and their treatment by folk revival
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trad singers and their treatment by folk revival |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: George Papavgeris Date: 10 Jul 07 - 06:55 AM Will the circle be unbroken? "Miniscule" compared to what? To the Cap'n it's just a token, but to Jim it's more than that. Dick, your voice 's sweeter than clover, but in this you are alone. Even Wimbledon is over. Call it deuce and let's go home. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:44 AM I am asking for this thread to be closed.I have tried to have a reasonable discussion,I have been called a comhaltas/PeterKennedy apologist ,told to sod off to glastonbury,it appears that the discussion is not going anywhere, GEORGE,Check effsee,andDaveS thread, I do not appear to be alone.I think in fairness your rhyme should be directed at Jim as well. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: George Papavgeris Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:00 AM Just poetic licence, Dick (and I know I'm not a poet, before anyone else says it!). I was literal about the voice though. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: BB Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:20 PM Dick said, "neXt time I see you Barbara,I hope youll be in plain clothes." So do I, Dick! Don't think I'd look good in uniform! Dick, I'm not prepared to drop a song like 'Pleasant & Delightful' just because it is thought to be hackneyed - I'd rather try to persuade people to listen again to it and realise what a beautiful song it is. I learnt it, and 'Sweet Nightingale', within the context of the tradition and from traditional singers. And, as I said above, one of those traditional singers used to get very hacked off with revivalists who 'tra-la-la'd' in the latter song. Fortunately, he was able to cope with it, and in a way that had a certain element of humour in it. I can quite see that there may be/may have been traditional singers who can't/couldn't. I think to say that "it has never happened" is somewhat of a sweeping statement. None of us has been at all performances within the revival of all traditional singers. My experience, however, is that by and large the revival has treated traditional singers with a great deal of respect, and I do feel that if someone had pointed out the fact that Walter was singing a different version of a well-known chorus, the revival singers would probably have stopped and listened before joining in with *his* version. I'm pretty sure that they would not knowingly have sung it differently. The fault, if anyone's, was probably the MC's for not stopping the audience with a quick 'The singer's version, please.' That's usually all it takes. As to accommodation, I'm with Dick on this one. Accommodation should always be as comfortable as possible within someone's home, whether for trad. or revival performers, but I can quite see that many traditional performers might be happier with that than in some impersonal hotel. I thought I'd go back to the beginning of this thread, as I couldn't remember why you had started it, Dick. I now see why, but Jim shortly followed by saying, "Can I make it clear that I don't believe that traditional singers in general fared badly at the hands of us outsiders. As a rule the behaviour towards these elderly singers was usually, in my experience, exemplary." He then went on to cite a few cases, which is what you asked him to do. Can we not all agree that the cases of mistreatment, intentional or otherwise, were and are few and far between, and leave it at that? Let's all just be aware of how we treat *any* performer, and show respect to them *and* their material. Barbara |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:59 PM BB,I said it has never happened in my EXPERIENCE,[please quote me correctly]and as A revival performer for 31years, I have quite a large experience. many years ago,one of the traditional musicians I booked,clearly had no idea of Folk club etiquette ,and talked loudly through floor singers spots.I gave the musician preferential treatment[because they were a source musician],any other audience member I would have asked to be quiet,had another member of the audience complained about the talker I would have been forced to ask them tactfully to be quiet.,so it can work both ways. Yes, I would agree with you Barbara. Hopefully this thread may have acheived something, if it has made people aware that all performers should be treated well,and that the British folk revival has treated its source singers generally speaking in an exemplary manner,and often better than revivalist singers have been treated. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: GUEST,Santa Date: 10 Jul 07 - 04:08 PM "one example of people joining in verses with Walter" Good God! We can't have that - a folk song club where folk actually sang! I hope you stamped that out pretty thoroughly, who knows where it could end? I don't know whether this thread should be ended or not, but isn't it getting a little, well, precious? |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Matthew Edwards Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:32 PM I've often wondered about the traumatic experience of young Duncan MacPhee who was compelled to sing his songs after being rugby tackled and roasted over an open campfire. The incident occurred at the berryfields in Blairgowrie in July 1955 when Hamish Henderson and Peter Kennedy were recording the amazing treasury of ballads and songs among travellers; Henderson compared the experience of making these recordings as being "like holding a tin can under Niagara Falls". Anyway the then 19 year old Duncan had a good reputation as a singer, but was reluctant to sing in public and as Henderson tells the story - "he jumped up from the camp-fire and tried to escape, and had to be pursued and carried back, kicking and struggling, by the other lads in the encampment"[1]. Kennedy adds that "nineteen year old Duncan McPhee[sic] had to be held over a camp fire and roasted by a crowd of his young tinker friends before he would sing..."[2] In these circumstances it is amazing that the young man then proceeded to sing with some considerable mastery and assurance such songs as the Child ballad The False Knight on the Road, and The Banks of Red Roses[3]. However it is understandable that he never recorded again; I don't know what happened to him - he may well still be around, but the loss of a talent like his is one of the sad stories of the times. I hope collectors these days treat their sources more gently! [1] Hamish Henderson, Notes to LP The Muckle Sangs: Classic Scots Ballads, Tangent Records, 1975. [2] Peter Kennedy (ed.), Folksongs of Britain and Ireland, Oak Publications, London, 1975. p. 475 [3] The few songs recorded by Duncan MacPhee at the 1955 campfire session are available as follows:- The False Knight on the Road(fragment), Track 3b, The Muckle Sangs: Classic Scots Ballads, Greentrax CDTRAX9005 (reissue of Tangent LP) On the Bonny Banks o' the Roses, Track 10, Songs of the Travelling People Saydisc CD-SDL 4707 Various songs from the 1955 campfire session by Duncan and other singers have been issued on Folktrax; FTX-183 - THREE LOVELY LASSES THE TRAVELLERS CAMPFIRE - 1, but I haven't heard this so I can't vouch for its quality. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Stringsinger Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:02 AM Singers and musicians don't belong in test tubes. They are human beings. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:41 AM Note that Hamish and Peter didn't 'roast' poor wee Duncan. That was done by his friends, who evidently felt that he ought to sing. Blame them, if you like; but not the all-too-often demonised 'collectors', without whom we would have very little to talk about. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk reviv From: GUEST Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:58 AM Santa, To many performers singing a song is a private matter. Should they wish to make it otherwise, that is surely their choice - basic good manners. A sensitive audience will allow the singer to decide how a song is performed - unless you want to make all performances community sing-songs. Jim Carroll
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: BB Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:27 AM "A sensitive audience will allow the singer to decide how a song is performed" Yes, indeed, Jim. That doesn't necessarily have to mean that people should never join in with the verses, but they should let the singer lead the song, and not overwhelm his/her voice. Sometimes, there is nothing better than hearing almost a gentle hum behind the main singer's voice on a well-known song. They are respecting the singer and the song - and obviously listening! I say 'sometimes', and it does depend on the circumstances - whether it's a communal session or whether it's a 'performance' situation, as it would be when someone is the guest singer at a club. In my opinion, the latter would probably not be an appropriate time to join in with the whole song. I know that there are many who would disagree with me, probably including you, Jim! To some people, one should never join in with the verses (some even think choruses aren't for everyone to sing!), and some think you should be able to join in with anything and everything, but again, it all comes down to respect, I think. Barbara |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:53 AM I agree with you,Jim.,. even a good harmony can be distracting as a singer,because you start to think,thats good whos doing that,and your attention can wander from the interpretation of THE STORY,If it is a shanty I would probably feel differently.,if the participant singer wasnt very good. I once had an experience when I was guesting at a FOLK CLUB,when a concertina player decided to join in with me,unfortunately our concertina chord progressions were different,itwas very annoying. Barbara,your right ,its about respect,thesame thing can besaid about slowing down of choruses. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: BB Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:55 AM As to that, Dick, if the audience are listening, and watching, the lead singer, that shouldn't be a problem, but hell, it's frustrating when it does happen! Barbara |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jul 07 - 07:04 AM SORRY my previous post, should have included,if the participant singer wasnt very good/or out of tune then ,it would be better if they shut up. again I agree Barbara about watching the lead. Some ballads like Swan Swims so bonny,can be really powerful with good singers joining in the chorus. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:45 PM It seems to me that a lot of audiences don't really discern or understand the difference between a 'chorus' and a 'refrain'. A 'chorus' is something like the, "No, nay, never" bit in the 'Wild Rover' (please, God - forgive me for quoting from the 'Wild Rover'!!). A refrain is something like the, "Fine laurel, fine floro" bit in 'Black Dog and Sheepcrook'. A chorus is almost designed to be 'belted out' but a refrain is a, somehow, more 'integral' part of the song; at least it is from my perspective as a singer. And as a singer I want to interpret the refrain in my own way and not at a tempo dictated by the audience. I recently sang a song with, what I think, is very moving and affecting refrain but not only did certain members of the audience attempt to dictate my tempo but some idiot at the back also attempted a harmony - and ended up singing in a completely different key (very off-putting)! |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: GUEST,Young Buchan Date: 12 Jul 07 - 11:49 AM I also don't know if anyone ever popped their cheeks to Cyril Poacher, but the USAF airbase crews who went for a drink in the Ship used to strum their guitars while he and the others were singing - and generally what the former were strumming was not what the latter were singing - to the point where it was very difficult to get him to sing at all. Also I have mentioned on another thread the story that Bob Pegg once saw Harry Cox performing at a Norfolk folk club, and every time he tried to sing, someone with a reel to feel recorder practically shoved the 'lollipop' up his nose. When Bob complained, the response of the MC was 'It's alright. It's only old Harry. He doesn't know what's going on!' In fairness I should say that some of the old boys were known to get their own back. Fred Jordan for one had a line in asides the loudness of which was, I suspect, not always directly attributable to his declining hearing in later years. I was once the patsy when someone had sung 'One too many mornings' and Fred turned to me and asked not very quietly 'What's that, boy? I haven't heard that before.' (Me) 'That's by Bob Dylan' (Fred) 'Oh that's why I haven't heard it, see!' And whilst I don't hold him in quite the same catagory as the above, let me open a floodgate: please write in, all the people who were ever interrupted/halted in their performance by helpful comments on their technique by Ken Loveless. |
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Subject: RE: trad singers and their treatment by folk revival From: The Sandman Date: 13 Jul 07 - 12:31 AM I have a recollection of a post by someone, possibly Tabster,of a night after a folk club,the whole night was spent singing and playing in the company of Packie Byrne[which must have been wonderful]. Packie is a traditional singer/ musician,so occassionally trad singers it seems have other needs, than being tucked up in bed immediately after a gig. that doesnt mean of course they should be subjected to all night parties if they dont want them. just ,they are human like everyone else,and might sometimes enjoy letting their hair down. |
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