Using sex to sell songs.

Subject: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:20 PM

Is it right? I am sat here (sad old git that I am) watching the Live Earth show on TV. The Pussycat Dolls are on and, to be honest, I am more than a little disturbed. The music is far from my cup of tea but I can see how it could be enjoyed by many. What realy puzzles me is the mixed message.

Men are now, hopefuly, in the position that they no longer see women as sex objects. I must say that seeing the 'dolls' did very little for me but that could be my age rather than conditioning! I can well understand how some younger men would see them as sex objects. Their costumes would be at home on the set of any porno movie (errrrrmm, so I am told. Shuffle about looking at my shoes...) Their dance is what used to be termed the bump and grind and the lyrics are more than a little suggestive. Singing don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me while thrusting a pelvis at the audience is hardly the stuff of childrens TV!

Now, I can well imagine some hormonal youth or young man purchasing a ticket for their show just to see them. Nothing to do with the music. Just to see them 'strutting their stuff'. Yet if that same young man was to admit to this he would be told that he was being sexist by many people. Possible even me, although I would be able to understand why he was sexist. How can us poor blokes, who everyone knows think only with their trousers and are much weaker than the 'weaker sex', be expected to know what to do?

Wht can these girl groups not sing in a full eastern burka? Or better still, considering the forum we are on, an arran sweater and faded jeans?

Ladies, I know some of you will say that girls should be able to wear what they want and still not be considered sex objects and I fully agree. But when such groups as these are blatantly using their attractivenes to men to sell more then what sort of role models are they for all the young women who like them as well. Are they telling other girls that it is perfectly OK to behave suggestively to get their own way? Don't get me wrong, please, there is no way that dress, or even behaviour, excuses the actions of some men but how can we deal with these mixed messages?

Seriously, I would like to know. And I am sure there are many there that will tell me. In no uncertain terms!

Cheers

Dave

PS - Highlight of the show up to now? Spinal Tap of course and the tiny druids folk dancing around the polystyrene stonehenge:-)

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:22 PM

Jaysus, Dave. Bite yer tongue. It is clearly all about the music!

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:24 PM

Clearly . . . .

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:31 PM

Foo fighters are on now. I had forgotton how good they are. Lead singer has a beard so they must be a folk group...

:D

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:32 PM

I have their first CD somewhere. Haven't listened too it in many years.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:33 PM

Heck. It may be a cassette tape. Can't remember.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:37 PM

It's the same sort of act we did at Swinton Folk Club a while back, and I don't recall Dave complaining then.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:40 PM

Turn over to BBC2 and watch Coast. Now.
Pussycat Dolls? Jesus . . .
However, I have to say I have marginally more contempt for the ridiculous females (I hesitate to call them women) than for the male persons who watch them.
Not long ago such a scenario happened here in a community in which it might have been hoped and expected that men would have the intelligence and sensitivity not to behave like this (or at least to have got over it).
A (thankfully) tiny group of male persons thought it perfectly 'normal' behaviour to leer over women at music venues they attend and use as pick-up joints.
Horrifyingly, there was an even tinier selection of females (two, IIRC) who said such outdated, reactionary, pathetic (and potentially dangerous) behaviour was acceptable, nay even appreciated.
I'm almost tempted to go so far as to say that they deserve what they are likely to get.
But no. What they need (forcibly) are the lessons in present-day sexual politics that most of us acquired decades ago.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:42 PM

So Greg, you were on the stage wearing make up and lingerie and thrusting your pelvis at the crowd?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:45 PM

Jaysus, Greg. Have a heart . . . .

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:48 PM

Amergin, well, mutatis mutandis, yes.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:55 PM

I really don't know why I bothered.
Haven't you litle boys got a pole-dancing joint to go to?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:56 PM

They won't let me in anymore ever since the incident with the Rosie blow-up doll, tan pantyhose and garlic press.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:59 PM

To my mind, if sex is used to sell songs it shows:

i. the poor quality of the music
ii. the lack of talent of the singer who cannot rely on the music to sell itself
iii. the lack of imagination of the manager
iv. the lack of ability of the audience to see a singer (male or female) as an actual person, but only as a desirable object
v. the willingness of the 'artist' (ha ha) to make use of this
vi. the poor state of the general public who are taken in by this shite

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:08 PM

The 'dolls were just being interviewed by Jonathon Woss. They were offstage wearing their normal clothes and I must say looked far better. Well, to me anyway.

Seen Coast before, Diane, Agree with most else. What is the answer though? As long as some women will prostitute themselves for those extra few record sales how can we expect the hormonal male to act any differently?

Greg, that basque was just SO not your colour. Didn't like to say at the time.

Madge is just coming on, being introduced by Terance Stamp of all people. Can't see the connection myself. Anyway, she certainly seems to have grown more sensible since she had those pointy breasts removed:-) Singing a very pleasant song and dressed in a little black number that Greg WOULD look good in...

:D

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:10 PM

Too much male bonding here for this ol' boy.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:14 PM

Those three blokes dancing in front of Madge are OK.
At a distance.
In closeup they're a bit strange.
OK, chaps, HOW DOES IT FEEL . . . ?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:17 PM

OK, maybe not too much. They remind me of so many 'bubblegum' groups that have made it big with subsets of people in the purchasing audience: The Backstreet Boys, The Monkees, The Spice Girls, The Beatles, etc. It's a marketing ploy and it seems to work. Get good-looking people and have them sing songs and folks will go see them, swoon and generally purchase lots of stuff that's outrageously expensive (remember Power Rangers, Teletubbies, Tickle Me Elmo, etc?). It ain't new and it ain't the last.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:25 PM

Doesn't upset me at all, Diane. I must say that I have never had the inclination to look like that at all so it is pretty ovious to me that even if it was a real oggle I would not feel jelous of it. And the argument that men would not like to be seen as sex objects is, I'm afraid, just not going to work with most blokes under 50 - coz that would probably be their dream come true!

Madge just came over all folky, with a fiddeist and an accordianer and everthing. How odd.

Anyway. Nearly finished now and then I can go to bed. I'm a bit like a rabbit in the headlights...

:D

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:25 PM

BTW, before I get slagged here, I thing the Beatles were awesome, I absolutely love "Listen to the Band" by the Monkees, etc. But I also know that they were primped to look good and that is what helped sell them.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:29 PM

That La Isla Bonita routine was really rather good. There's clearly been not enough rehearsal time but Mrs Ritchie's dance skills prevented quite a few collisions. And she was right on cue to mic the two musicians.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:30 PM

In an article about a month ago at MSNBC:

Sexiness = power in porn-driven culture

Indeed, there was a time when dancing for the masses in barely there outfits was the realm of music video stars and strippers. Then the Internet and reality TV came along, providing new platforms for young women to flaunt it for a shot at fame.
In one hit prime-time series, for instance, eager young contestants perform soft-core porn dance routines in hopes of becoming the next member of The Pussycat Dolls singing group.
The fascination with being "hot" also has made its way into the workplace, where confidence is often conveyed in the way one looks and dresses.
… …
The Pussycat Dolls recently hosted a prime-time television show in which scantily clad young women performed sexually charged dance routines in a quest to be the next member of the group.

It appears that "Pussycat Dolls" is more like a "franchise" than a group. (Is there really only one group using the name?)

Maybe its purpose, quality, advertising, implementation, and effects could be best compared to the toxic offerings at McDonalds?

John

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:31 PM

I liked the scouse git song the Monkees did - showed a real sense of humour rather than the crap TV series that they did. Agreed - They were a manufactured band but I think they actualy grew out of that. I don't know how the Beatles got in there - I don't think anyone has ever accused them of being the product of marketing hype. The cause of marketing hype maybe but not the product.

D.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:32 PM

I don't think I've got the option of looking sexy while I'm performing.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:36 PM

I've decided to have a bottle of Fiddlers Elbow before I go up. Damn the consequences:-)

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:38 PM

You'll be sorrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeee.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:46 PM

I already am! Did I just hear Madge thanking Al Gore for making everyone aware of the effects of global warming? I am sure he wasn't a founder memebr of Greenpeace was he?

Must be pissed already and only had half a bottle.

:D

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:51 PM

Well, Al Gore did co-ordinae the series of events (FWIW).
Anyway, Mrs Ritchie hasn't heard of Joseph Fourier who discovered the greenhouse effect in 1824.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:52 PM

What is Fiddlers Elbow?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:56 PM

Lemon-flavoured beer.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:56 PM

Nectar of the gods.

:D

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:57 PM

1.12. 15.1.4.15.19.8.9.20.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:59 PM

Hey - just remembered. Had some VERY nice stuff last week from a brewery in Alloa - Grozet. Brewed to a 16th century recipe and involving, of all things, Goosberries!

Must try to find it again. Maybe I dreamt it...

:D

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:01 PM

You forgot the f.


LOL

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:07 PM

Not in Ireland, Peace:-)

Not fair though, Dick. I am sure they would be kinder about one o' your gigs!

Anyway - It's late for a bloke suffering the effects of old age and poverty. I'll check in again in the morning. Play nice while I'm away.

:D

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:09 PM

Ya got me there, Dave. Have a good evening.

But, son, ? lemon beer ? Good lord . . . .

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:57 PM

Of course, that's coming from a guy who used to drink scotch and milk in a 1 to 3 ratio.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:02 PM

Here's a rather different Pussycat Dolls video - with a well loved group of performers from British TV.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:13 PM

Didn't Miriam Backhouse used to use sex to 'sell' The Cuckoos Nest song to the audience, or is that something different?

Duh......sorry that was 'traditional' and thus allright.

actually I always think you sell what you've got as a performer.   And if you're a professional perfrormer, by and large you're damn glad you got that - whatever it is, people will pay for.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:36 PM

Hey, perhaps I can use this idea too, to sell my songs.
"Empty handed" for the loners.
"Friends like these" for the orgies.
"Bite of the underdog" for bestiality.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: open mike
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:54 PM

thread creep here..i have both fiddler's elbow and
http://www.wychwood.co.uk/wychwood_hobgoblin.htm
both unopened..just like the labels!

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Songster Bob
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 08:33 PM

"Foo fighters are on now. I had forgotton how good they are. Lead singer has a beard so they must be a folk group..."

Oh, do they sit down to play? I thought that was the tip-off to a folk act.

Songbob

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:37 AM

I saw the Pussycat Dolls on TV here once - just out of passing interest, because my karate instructor was (miming) playing sax with them on a TV show. It was pretty silly and dull and the song was so forgettable that I recall nothing about it at all. I have no problem with people using their sexiness to sell something. They have been doing it for years with yoghurt, chocolate and a hundred other products. These people are not interested in music, they are simply sales staff in a business pitch. What has that got to do with music? Why should it interest us?
I just have the same problem with the Pussycat Dolls as I have with porn films. I don't find them sexy. They have nice bodies, which they are prepared to contort into silly postures, while wearing ridiculous togs. Some people find that sexy, I guess... Good luck to them. I guess different people find different things sexy. I would kill my Granny to get into the Bangles changing rooml. I always thought they had wit, charm and warmth as well as nice bodies. That could turn me on. The silly posing antics of the Spice Girls - whom I personally find about as hot as yesterday's rice pudding... I would prefer to take the dog for a walk.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 04:17 AM

Peggy Lee singing Fever ...surely very sexy. Sexy is good - unless you're in the Taleban. What is this thread about?

If you find yourself in the arena of human experience with a band of young ladies called The Pussycat Dolls, I doubt if you sought them out for spiritual enlightenment and philospohical insight.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 05:07 AM

Good mornng all.

What is this thread about?

I was hoping it would be about the dichotomy between women not wanting to be treated as sex objects while certain female groups are more than happy to use sex to sell themselves.

Sexy is indeed good. Never seen Peggy Lee singing Fever but I have heard it, and yes, it is a very sexy song. Just proving that you do not need to be so blatant to be sexy. The 'Dolls are just too blatant for my taste. It has nothing to do with the supression of women by old men with beards as you imply but rather young women who do the cause of equality no favours at all.

actually I always think you sell what you've got as a performer.   And if you're a professional perfrormer, by and large you're damn glad you got that - whatever it is, people will pay for.

Isn't this what prostitutes do? I have nothing against that as such but to use it to sell your music? Surely not. Can the music not stand on it's own? If not would it not be wiser to just let it fall?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 06:48 AM

Wiser, yes, profitable, no. And I never heard it being said of a performer "wasn't he/she wise to avoid the trap of using her looks to sell albums/seats, and instead let his/her crap performance sink him/her to obscurity? - We think so much more of him/her for this!".

Heck, if I had three arms and two heads I'd find a way to use the fact. Perhaps singing harmonies with myself while playing two instruments.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 07:14 AM

I don't think that would make anyone want to have sex with you though, George:-) Mind you, you never know...

Seriously though I do think it's a tough one. On the one hand you have got people condoning the 'if you have it, flaunt it' school and on the other people condeming out of hand those that fall under the sirens spell. Well. maybe not sirens because they did it with song but I hope you get my drift.

I'm realy just not sure selling anything by using male or female sexuality does anything to help us progress to a stage where we look beyond base attraction. I am not sure if we will ever achieve those ideals anyway, or whether we should. What is the alternative? Well, the Taliban have already been mentioned. That is one, but would anyone here want to live to those restrictions?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 07:19 AM

I agree it doesn't help us (that is, the average "us", the masses) progress to looking beyond base attraction. It means the one has to be even better at their art than the rest, and perhaps have some luck too, to shine. It's sad and an indictment for the sheep mentality of our gonad-driven society.

But Taliban-like restrictions? No thanks!

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 07:25 AM

The one thing that concerns me here is that a lot of this music is aimed at the very impressionable pre-teen and teen audience, who look at these performers as icons to be slavishly copied in looks and behaviour.

As a result little girls want to dress like their idols and see this behaviour as good and little boys begin to see the girls more as sex objects, because that is what is being sold. Even with good parenting it is difficult to explain to children that this is all just make believe, engineered to sell music. You can see the result on the streets of most towns - a preponderance of bare bellies and almost non-existent skirts even on lasses who have not yet got to puberty.

There should be an appreciation of the opposite sex, by both male and female alike, that is how the human race keeps going. However, introducing young children to the concept is, to my mind, travelling down a dangerous road. Before they really start looking at the opposite sex in this way they need to learn respect for others of both sexes. I don't think that these pop idols are helping in that area.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 07:41 AM

Amen to that Jacqui! I shudder when I see these youngsters made to grow up too early by fasion slave parents. How come they are all called Kylie, Chantelle and Jason btw? ;-)

Talking of early - are you up early for a Sunday morning or are you over in the UK at the mo?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,Constant Name
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:05 AM

I wonder how many paedeophiles are 'inside' the music industry, the toy industry and the fashion industry.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:10 AM

That's a somewhat contentious post whoever you are.
G

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:13 AM

As a middle aged (I don't admit to old), 'well brought up' (don't like the word repressed) woman my reaction to the picture on Peace's first link is 'uggh -brazen hussies'.
What is the reaction of others of maybe a different age/gender/background? Do they do what they aim for?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:59 AM

I don't really get whats being talked about. its not really music that's being sold here - its something else.

I remember my little nephew (when he was little) bought the jason Donovan first album. jason was in 'neighbours' at the time and (as is his wont) Pete waterman had stuck a bag of shit together, labelled it Jason Donovan and the Neighbours fans had bought it.

disappointment in that household on Christmas morning when the disc hit the turntable, I can tell you.

Stock Aitken Waterman were probably the pioneers who noticed that the music was an irrelevance. They sold the 'sizzle', rather than the sausages. I guess the Pussyact Dolls (whom I haven't yet seen, but I would hazard a guess) are really part of the 'tradition' and will be on the mainstage at Cambridge before Jack Hudson.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 11:17 AM

I don't really get whats being talked about. its not really music that's being sold here - its something else.

Spot on WLD - You do yourself an injustice - it is indeed not music that we are talking about so you have 'got it' - In one!

I have just the same views of the stock cube and watering can stable as you. I am sure there must be exceptions but generaly it is an 'image' rather than the music or the artist that is being sold. In fairness I think Kylie has probably grown out of it now as have, potentialy some others. But SAW were not the only exponents - Who, for instance, manufactured Sheena Eastham?

Before we get too far from the thread though the question really is - Is it right? Whether we would call it music or not (It's life, Jim, but not as we know it) is it right that we should allow, even encourage, the undermining of the female struggle to be taken seriously with this kind of trite display? WHat can we do about it anyway?

I don't want it to be about whether the music is good, bad or indifferent, or about the struggle between contemporary and traditional music. There are plenty of threads out there already on those topics. Simply as the opening post said.

Is it right?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 11:24 AM

PS = Out of interest, so you know a little of my tastes in both departments, I believe The Witches of Elswick are a fine example of a very attractive (to me anyway!) female group using their music rather than their sexuality to 'sell'. Going back some ways I could use your example of Peggy Lee, or to be nearer the 'pop' genre, how about the Supremes? There are thousands of other exaples so it CAN be done.

D,

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Severn
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:07 PM

So it's using songs to sell sex then?

Is using a song to sell romance, merely a slower version of the same concept?

Is a song that puts you in the mood for a slow dance with one you already love anything less, just by circumstance and degree of subtlety?

Much dancing of any kind, as well as a lot of singing, is designed to attract the opposite sex. How many of you folkies out there first picked up the guitar as much as , if not more, for the reason of attracting the opposite sex as well as following the siren call of the music itself, even if the lure of the music might've taken over a bit, eventually?

How many songs are good enough to make you dance and think on your feet simultaneously?

In the Appalachiand, Play Party dances got around the church restrictions for interactions between boys and girls, and ballads that ended in "This couple, they got married, so why not you and I?" were a nudge toward proposal.

So it seems a question of brashness, manner or subtlety, a question of degree in which it's being sold.

If some of you remember, say, the song that was playing when your firstborn was concieved, or for your forst kiss, even if you can't imabine people doing so to a lot of today's music, in the context of what you're conditioned to, it still might happen. From Rap music or maypoles, music is designed to bring us together physically as well as spiritually or mentally. again, it's just a question of degree and propriety, but it's been there since music was first made.

Selling Love, Lust or even Lullabye is as much propaganda and selling a piece of goods an any political tract or commercial jingle.
Some voices, minds and bodies can spread the word better than others, is all. And if someone's a lousy dancer or hasn't either the lust or tenderness in their voive as they have in their heart and that they feel inside, you try to use whatever you got to put over whatever you can to whomever you can, as needs exist..

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:10 PM

'I don't want it to be about whether the music is good, bad or indifferent, or about the struggle between contemporary and traditional music'

well sorry, but I think that's exactly what its about. I suspect the Pussyact (irony not misprint!) Dolls you describe and the 'tradition' are brother chip.

I was chatting to a folksinger recently who had secured a grant for writing some dull worthy unmemorable tripe.

In both cases - its not about the music.

When its about the music and it comes from te heart the heart, the scrotum and all everything visceral in between - it enters the collective consciousness - which is the true tradition.

i think I would place freddie and dreamers work, as more influential on my work than most the contents of Cecil Sharp House.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:12 PM

Good point WLD - Just shows that a bit of lateral thinking can bring about a bit of, well, lateral thinking:-) I must say I hadn't noticed the similarity between what I consider poor music in the mainstream and the same in the folk clubs!

If you look at the good from both sides, say, from last nights show, the Foo Fighters and from the 'tradition', one I know you will agree with, John Kelly, neither feel the need to disguise what they are doing as anything other than what it is. Yet the old bloke with the arran sweater using his 'knowledge' to hide the fact he cannot sing for toffee is, in fact, using a diversionary tactic. Just like the scaty dull sops (anagram competion to me I think...) You know - There are some people I will never look in the same light again:-)

I agree entirely that there are these diversionary tactics everywhere, and that includes the contemprary singer sonrwriter genre, but can I ask a favour of you? When I said I did not want the thread to be about good or bad music etc. I did mean just that. I realy wanted this to be a discussion of the dichotomy in female representation that I mentioned before. I would be quite happy to enter into a discussion about good and bad etc. but would you please start a seperate thread about it so we can keep this on topic. Many thanks.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:24 PM

Dave, I fear for your sanity. You will be lining up with some very odd sods - if you pursue this line.

It reminds me a bit about that Jim Broadbent film about Lord Longford. Longford was very disturbed by the sudden increase in pornography in the 1970's, but found himself on the same platform as some very opportunistic fuckwits like the Whitehouse woman.

the trouble with the moral majority is, they're all complete tossers.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:46 PM

:-D

I'm just a bloke who wants to know how to react when faced with scantily clad young ladies. Do I say 'cor, wharra cracker' or whatever todays version of a Sid James line would be, or do I say 'kindly cover yourselves so I can see the personality behind those breasts.' ?

I am very surprised that there is only a couple of females have come on board. At least there have been no apologists for using these tactics.

Up to now...

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:49 PM

Oh - sorry WLD - I just re-read your post. Can I ask a genuine question of you? What 'line' do youthink I am pursuing? I realy do just want to know what other people, particularly females, think about using sexuality in this way.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:54 PM

I don't think the Pussyact Dolls (great name WLD!) are anything more than a passing irrelevance. When their young bodies age a few years, there will be other willing lust objects for the next lot of undiscerning punters to drool over. They choose to do it and all the feminist action in the world will not end it. It will be going on when we are all six feet under.
Does it all undercut the genuine female artists or the cause of achieving more respect for women? I wonder how many of those drooling over the Pussyact Dolls or their contemporaries knew anything about Germaine Greer or Simone de Beauvoir to start with. Some of them will grow up and some of them won't. Silly pop groups do not represent the image of women as a whole any more than Jack the Ripper embodies men as a whole. I am happy to ignore today's pop groups, but even if I weren't, I do not think they would have much bearing on my attitude towards women.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 03:04 PM

Aha! Thanks, alanabit. This is more like what I was after. So I can treat these 'acts' as an irrelevance. I guess that is a good start in my search for enlightenment. I wonder if we can continue to ignore these things though? As pop culture takes hold of more and more young minds how many people will grow up thinking that this is the norm. There are already too many young women making themselves ill or dying trying to look like the latest fasion trend. As the media hold more and more sway over the masses should we not be looking towards laying down some guidelines? Or does that smack too much of either elitism or controling censorship? I, for one, would hate to be the one to say what our youngsters can and cannot watch on TV. But just where should those lines be drawn and by whom?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 03:10 PM

Oh there's a dirty paper using sex to make a sale
The Supreme Court was so upset, they sent him off to jail
Maybe we should help the fiend and and take away his fine
But we're busy reading Playboy and the Sunday New York Times
But I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 03:13 PM

That was written by Phil Ochs. Guess I figured everyone would know that.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 04:15 PM

I think the acts are an irrelevance, because despite the crap in the media about them being "important", you and I have seen plenty of these acts come and go. They are transient and will soon be gone. They will go - and so will their "values" - because, in fact, they do not have any real values at all. It is just a promotion gimmick. Time is much crueller to them than we could ever be. Real artists can look back and feel they have done something with their youth. I found Joni Mitchell very sexy back in the seventies. There was real substance there too. The current crop of airheads will come and go just as they did in any age. We do not need to "do anything about it". Time will fix it just fine! Most of our youngsters will grow up. There are people who sustain a sexual age of fifteen throughout their lives - but they are beyond help anyway.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 04:33 PM

I think no one has really improved on the Bob dylan line in Its all right ma, I'm only bleeding:-

Obscenity, who really cares.....

When the festival of Light wanted to attack someone, they chose a serious playwright, and the poet James Kirkup. I just think everything one could attempt to do would give succour to knaves.

As for how you should react, keep on sticking your chin out - someone will tell you before long. As it stands(in a manner of speaking...nudge, nudge) what you do in the privacy of your own home - feel free to share it with us.....

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 05:07 PM

Phil Ochs dead... because the music industry is in the hands of a gang of stinkpots...theres obscenity.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 08:57 PM

Dave - I tend to be awake by 6.00am and look at the 'Cat while eating breakfast and before taking the dog to the beach. Hard life but........

I'll be in the Uk, probably, in December. Where are you? I'm trying to get to visit as many different sessions as I can over the next few years.

(Sorry for the thread drift)

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Rowan
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:28 PM

"Using sex to sell songs" is, I reckon, about as old as the troubadors; it's just that the techniques were different at different times. Ditto "Using songs to sell sex". I haven't seen the video clip that started the discussion and I think I couldn't really be bothered either but, like WLD, I suspect it's not really music anyway. On Oz's ABC there's a music video program that plays overnight on weekends and my daughters watch it in the early mornings (when the officially naughty stuff has finished) when only some of it is soft porn. Whenever they comment favourably on an item I suggest they close their eyes and listen, so they can judge whether it is the audio or the video that appeals. Their taste in music is well informed, as is their taste in visuals.

To address Dave's original question; I recently came across a piece about Susan Sontag doing a stint as a Playboy Bunny in the early 60s to make a point that liberation for women should include acceptance of their ability to display themselves. I confess my reaction to such display has changed ("matured") over the years but, even when young, I recognised the difference between instinctive reaction and responsible and respectful reaction. I like to think I also learned to control reactions that may be instinctive and that some would call 'automatic'. I don't think one should be allowed to escape culpability by claiming that one's response was "automatic" but a question still remains.

Condemnation/acceptance of male responses doesn't address the question of whether any circumstances that may be regarded as allowing young women to display and be confident that their behaviour can be respected. Girls learn from women particularly and adults generally and I despair when I see the sexualised behaviour of 5 year olds entered by their parents in beauty pageants. And we wonder why there are so many paedophile networks! I think I have been successful in teaching my daughters to have respect for themselves and others and their self respect will be their guide. Good judgement in choosing their friends and colleagues may help in ensuring such friends and colleagues have similar standards of self respect. I live in hope.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 03:45 AM

I don't have a problem with using sex (whatever gender you are) to sell whatever. I do get glum at the quality of some of the resulting music - and the fact that I don't suppose I ever could use sex to sell my music. Ho Hum.

It seems quite regrettable that women seem to need (perhaps less in folk music) to look like Atomic Kitten to get a gig. But rock and roll (or whatever it's called these days) has always been about sex, so how surprising is it that the routine and the presentation refer to sex too?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 04:49 AM

Good post, Rowan. Thanks for that. I think you have probably answered the original question perfectly. It does seem to be an age or maturity thing. I suspect the reaction of most men to displays of blatant sexuality will be the same - It cannot help but be when millions of years of breeding instinct are involved. What the mature man does however, and I mean mature in terms of mental development rather than years, is controls that basic reation. Where you see groups of men, predominately young but age is no barrier, together they tend to go backwards in this. From what I have seen of groups of women they seem no better. What we get, unfortunatley, is that behavior spilling over into general society and some people cannot seem to differentiate.

I guess one of the main difference between us and anilmals is that we are able to mask our instincts to a much greater extent. Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on your point of view I suppose!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: s&r
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 05:37 AM

Most music of the Pussycat Dolls and similar is a stage show with music: music alone is a different thing. Watching an orchestra is not riveting however good the music. In a disco environment the playing of particular songs results in many of the audience dancing the routine presented by the Artist on the video of the song.

Don't personally have a problem with these groups, or their sexiness, but i think the sexiness sells the whole show not just the song.

Stu

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Grab
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 07:35 AM

Think Rowan's got it right - it's partly an age thing. Any town centre in Britain, you'll find packs of girls in what's commonly (in both senses of the word!) known as "greyhound skirts". The girls go out to find boys, the boys go out to find girls. As much as Germaine Greer might disagree, the clothing (and more importantly the *attitude* behind the clothing) *is* a sign saying "I might be sexually available if you can impress me". The boys with their shirts open down the front and necklaces/signet rings/other bling are making exactly the same statement.

I think Dave has it precisely right - these songs *are* telling girls that behaving suggestively is a way to get men to do what they want. For many young men, that's correct.

Thing is that for young men and women, having a girlfriend/boyfriend *is* a status thing, especially if they're hot. It's down to competitiveness. As you get older, I think you get more respect for yourself and no longer feel like you have to be judged by who/what you've won. (And yes, the "what" is deliberate there - both men and women are objectifying each other.)

So if a young woman chooses to use your body that way, it's her choice - but it's up to her whether she can still respect herself after doing that.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:37 AM

I just tried it the other way round, using songs to sell sex ... It only worked once but we are happily married for 29 years ...

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,IS
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:41 AM

Two of the sexiest singers I've ever seen are two Scottish Traveller ballad singers. But they're not selling anything, and they don't 'use' sex as such - they just can't help but exude a certain completely natural sexual charisma.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Marje
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 11:26 AM

"It seems quite regrettable that women seem to need (perhaps less in folk music) to look like Atomic Kitten to get a gig. "

Phew, that bit in brackets is a relief, Richard, I can forget about going shopping for a basque and fishnets for my next folk club floor spot!

Perhaps one reason many of us find the Pussycat-Doll posturing so ridiculous and unsexy is that the prevailing standards and fashions in the folk world are so different. Sure, there are folky women ( and also men) who are very attractive and exude sexuality, but it's generally something that comes across in a natural, unforced way, as part of the whole persona; a full-on floozie floor-spot would look simply ludicrous in a folk club, to both men and women - and, it has to be said, the average age of most folk performers would make this a difficult and unlikely feat anyway.

Happily, these things tend to balance themselves out, and most men in the folk world seem happy to keep company with what you might call "low-maintenance" women rather than pussycats in porn costumes.

Marje (low-maintenance woman)

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 11:40 AM

Not to defend it, but sex has been selling songs since waaaaaay before my time. Some female singers from the 1940's, for example, were certainly "stimulating" to the boys away at war. I doubt many of their songs would have resonated quite so well if sung by Vaughn Monroe or Billy Eckstine. Of course, these days, who knows? On the other side, how would you characterize the reaction of young female fans to Sinatra, back in the late '30's and '40's? Benign and platonic enfatuation?

I think it's fair to say that males will always take note of attractive females, and it is not that we all think in terms of women as mere "objects." What is more to the point is whether or not one chooses to control his appetites and behave with respect toward the other half of the human race, while enjoying these moments.

As a footnote, I am old enough, by now, that bawdy beauties cannot atone for bad music. God knows, there's enough crap masquerading as art out there. Sex can't save it. But dumbed-down audiences might not care a whit.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 11:52 AM

" ... I am old enough, by now, that bawdy beauties cannot atone for bad music."

Fortunately, the invention of the 'mute' button offers a way around the 'bad music', while allowing the appreciation of 'bawdy beauty'. Without getting off the couch.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: birdman blue
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 12:26 PM

...and if the "bawdy beauty" offends as well, there's always the "off" button. that is a REAL option folks; my preferred option for just about everything on the television. btw., seems to me that the human animal is hardwired (hormonally) to react to sexuality....given that fact it should surprise no one that enterprising persons would use it to promote their product.
bird

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 12:35 PM

Late to the party and stating the obvious (My Forte)

We've all turned into our parents.

"What's the matter with kids today..."

Marketing is about the world as it is. Not the world as one might want it to be.

What the Pussycat Dolls do to sell their product makes perfectly good sense if it works.

Would I emulate the Dolls if I thought it would garner the same financial rewards they get? In a heartbeat. Actually I'd dress scantily and wiggle and make a complete fool of myself for half what they make.

Sexual posturing is DNA talking.

In the old days when humans became capable of breeding, they went out and bred. They started as soon as possible because time was short.

The idea that we're going to change human mating behavior by talking about it for a couple of generations is fairly optimistic.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 12:43 PM

Remembering the golden days of the folk scare, it seems to me that women were treated much more like objects than now--The Pussycat Dolls, whatever you think of them, are the center of attention, not an arm decoration for some D35 totin' fingerpicker with tight jeans and an ego problem--

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 12:47 PM

Like, um, Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez, Buffy Ste-Marie, Mary Travers, Sylvia Tyson ...

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Bee
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 12:50 PM

"I wonder if we can continue to ignore these things though? As pop culture takes hold of more and more young minds how many people will grow up thinking that this is the norm. There are already too many young women making themselves ill or dying trying to look like the latest fasion trend. As the media hold more and more sway over the masses should we not be looking towards laying down some guidelines? Or does that smack too much of either elitism or controling censorship? I, for one, would hate to be the one to say what our youngsters can and cannot watch on TV. But just where should those lines be drawn and by whom?
" - Dave P

I think there are always people swayed by sex or other things as gimmicks for selling something, and there will always be enough foolish people, young or old, to harm themselves for fashion or health or 'spiritual' ideas.

I have rather more confidence in the common sense of the majority of young (and old) people, knowing lots of teenaged kids who take the media for what it is, enjoy the show, but live their lives cheerfully and sensibly.

Not long ago, I watched a young male band play on TV, and I was struck by how very sexy and beautiful they were, with their youthful scraggy beards and flying locks and smooth biceps. Then I was struck by the fact that I might not have found them near as attractive when I myself was a young thing - youth is wasted on the young, eh?

Which is to say, I'm not sure how accurate one generation's judgement of another can be. And that perhaps the blatant sexual display of critters like the Pussycat Girls is not so influential on the young as we might think.

As for sexualised dress for kiddies - their parents are responsible and should be whacked upside the heads.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:33 PM

As a band we are only in the business for sex drugs and rock and roll - not that we get any.......

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 03:24 PM

"A (thankfully) tiny group of male persons thought it perfectly 'normal' behaviour to leer over women at music venues they attend and use as pick-up joints.
Horrifyingly, there was an even tinier selection of females (two, IIRC) who said such outdated, reactionary, pathetic (and potentially dangerous) behaviour was acceptable, nay even appreciated."

As I read it, a beautiful woman dressed in a mini-skirt walked into a folk club and the men noticed. The comment was made that in the 60s, folk clubs were a place for men and women to meet. Men and women have to meet in order for procreation to take place. Both dress to attract each other and frequent places where suitable partners are likely to appear. So it is and so it will always be. This is neither outdated, reactionary nor pathetic.


Ms. Easby has turned these innocent and valid comments into an endorsement of terrifying prowling sexual deviants. And she resorts to name calling whenever someone disagrees with her.

No one on this thread has behaved like a "little boy" and Ms. Easby is the only one interested in pole dancing. The fact that so few women disagreed with you on the other thread does not mean that everyone held your opinions. Most of us recognize that the discussion will fast deteriorate into your twisting words and nasty name calling. It is pointless to express an opinion. Re-read your post above for proof.

As to sex selling music - I am often amused at what is acceptable today on TV and in films. Michael Jackson grabbing his crotch, Madonna in lingerie, groups appealing to young teenagers appearing in S&M outfits. Remember when Elvis could be shown only from the waist up? They offer sexy images in place of talent to an age group that thrives on hormones and shock effect.

I agree Dave. Young men today are expected to respect women but presented with women as sex objects. Young women on the other hand demand respect at least in the work place while parading around half dressed. That is a simplification but if you and I are confused what chance does a 14 year old male or female have?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 04:28 PM

Well, the topic does attract more posts than one about a particular song.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:35 AM

As a band we are only in the business for sex drugs and rock and roll

I joined an historical re-enactment group once because I heard they did good buffets. I was only in it for the Saxon thugs and sausage rolls...

A few good points delivered recently. Thanks for that people. Makes me realise I am not alone in not understanding the dichotomy mentioned. I think I am also begining to realise that it may not be as bizarre as it seems. If I am understanding some of the points then, yes, the sexualy orientated displays are to get people 'going' and are perfectly acceptable by most. But what the sensible person does is realises it is just gameplay. As long as the the people presenting the show accept that any response they get may just be gameplay as well! One worrying thing would be that some people would not realise it was make believe but I think that always has and always will be the danger. We cannot mitigate it by preventing the displays!

On the subject of dressing children in this manner then, yes, but a slap round the head is too good for the parents. They should be made to realise that they are not only placing their children in danger but taking away part of their precious childhood as well. If they cannot be made to see it, then the children should go into care as being at risk.

Thanks all for an interesting discussion kept, as someone said, mainly at an adult and civilised level. See - we can do it when we want:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:48 AM

Happy to be of service, Dave. Or. perhaps that word is inappropriate in this discussion. My GP (a bloke) reckons that most males are ruled by the reptilian part of their brain. In a New England (Oz) winter, with its clear skies (and thus sharply frosty nights and brilliantly sunny days), I deny possessing a reptilian brain but cheerfully admit to a reptilian back and make sure I sit in the sun with its rays warming my kidneys.

Humming a song or a tune. Sex and selling not even close to being on my mind.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:08 AM

I think we've reached rock bottom in many ways in the music industry. As a Mum I'm deeply concerned at what's going on.

This isn't using sex to sell songs...It's using songs to sell sex....and to sell 'sex' to our children!

It's unnatural for children to be 'sexualised' as they now so very often are. It's also deeply disturbing.

What is more disturbing though is that society has taken a step back and seems to be 'accepting' in every way what is going on around us. Nowadays, many parents seem to think it's 'normal' for their children to be having sex (not love..sex) at 13/14.."Oh what can you do..It's what the kids do these days isn't it. They're all the same...the world's moved on..They know how to protect themselves...." etc.etc.etc..

We, as adults, have completely lost the plot, in my opinion!! We turn a blind eye to it all, partly because we perhaps feel overwhelmed by it?

Women are NOT sex objects, apart from to a small minority of men, who have and always will view them in that way. Most men, whilst being instantly attracted to many women, also realise there is a person underneath.

Women have brought a lot of this upon themselves, (sorry Diane, but here I go)...It is not right, in my opinion, for women to remove ALL responsibility from themselves and put it onto men. If you choose to dress like a tart, chances are you'll be treated that way. If however, you choose to use your brain, want to be accepted for who you are, and not what you are..then..chances are you'll find respect.

It is irresponsible of the Pussycat Twits to be parading around as they are. They know that young kids, children, will be watching and they need a huge kick up the backside for contributing to what is going on around our children right now!

Kids of 5 and 6 are sexualised, by music, by videos, by computers, by toys, by fashion and by parents who don't give a damn!! Many parents DO care and they fight a seemingly losing battle in this sea of sex that surrounds their children from almost birth.

Ask yourselves who is behind this industry..for it is an industry..and what their motives are. WHO in their right minds would want to aim sex at children. WHO in their right minds would want to participate in that?

Society has become so dumbed down, that many people no longer even think that deeply. They are not concerned with anything but themselves. They don't even have the ability TO think for themselves anymore...Has this been done on purpose? Have we educated an entire generation, several generations even, to be nothing more than consumers?

And tell me...if the Pussycats are acceptable now, then WHAT will be acceptable in another year or two or three? If it's OK for kids of 13 and 14 to be having sex now, then soon society will have swallowed the idea that it's OK for 11/12 years olds. It's not a big step is it..but it's a darkly dangerous one.

I'm 52 now, when I was a young person, none of my friends were 'having sex' and I went to the roughest school in the area. I knew no 'young' teenagers who were at that stage in their lives, nor who wanted to be. We were safe, happy and free. We talked of so many things in life, not just sex...it didn't dominate our thinking, as it does now for so many youngsters...

I feel as if our children are being 'groomed'...and it scares the beejayzus out of me to be honest..

I've spoken to toy companies, fashion companies, chain stores etc...and some of the things I've heard have sent the fear of God running through me!!

It's time we all opened our eyes....Watch that five year old at her party, see how she dances. And then...be afraid..be VERY afraid!!

By all means sing sexy songs, in a sexy way. It's been done for centuries, enjoyably and to great effect...but NEVER has it been aimed at children and such very young people before and every year they aim it at younger and younger kids..

Someone please tell me why? Because the answers I have floating in my head are not good. They are terrifying...


Lizzie

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:26 AM

Lizzie have you been walking round in blinkers? Where were you in the 60s? The luckier people started having sex at about 12 or 13 and the unluckier ones envied them. Don't you remember Helen Shapiro's "Don't treat me like a child"? Don't you remember Presley's "Let's play house"? Don't you remember the Oz School Kids issue? Don't you remember "Honeybunch"? Don't you remember the lyrics of any umpteen Marc Bolan singles "She's faster than most, and she lives on the coast..." Don't you remember the Arrows "Mama don't mind what Mama don't see..."

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:30 AM

Why? Because it's making a lot of money for a small number of people.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:35 AM

Nope...too young for most of those Richard...and nope I refuse to agree with you there I'm afraid. The MINORITY may have been but things are now WAY beyond that...

And with all due respect, it's attitudes like that that are helping to fuel what is now happening! I KNOW what was around when I was young and it sure as hell wasn't what's around now!!

My generation weren't dressed like hookers at the age of 10, nor were they spilling out their souls on alcoholic binges every night of the week.

The kids in the Western World, the USA and the UK in particular, have now been named as the most deprived and unhappiest IN THE WORLD Richard, by UNICEF. Great Britain came out TOP of that.

We have a MAJOR problem going on here with our children, but we have an even MORE major one going on with our attitudes!

What is happening in the music industry now is deeply wrong. We've gone way past 'sexy' and way into 'pornographic' in my opinion. Some may feel that it's OK for our children to be surrounded by that...I do not..

We are letting down generations of kids here Richard. It's not funny and it's not 'the way it's always been'..It's darkly disturbing and it's happening right now, all around us, whilst most people sit idly by and just shake their heads, tut tutting about anyone who dares to complain..

Time to move on and change how things are..and ALL of us need to be a part of that..

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:43 AM

LIZZIE

For once I totally agree with you.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:21 AM

Good grief.

Haven't looked at this thread for some time because I got so bored with the sniggering, juvenescent, blokishness. I dismissed the bulk of the pre-pubescent participants as little boys who really ought to get off to the pole-dancing joint because it accorded with their apparent choice of Saturday-night 'entertainment' after a spell in front of the telly with the Pussycat Dolls.

Someone called 'sinsull' with a comprehension deficit reads this as an interest on my part in pole-dancing (eh?) then comes out with this corker:

Men and women have to meet in order for procreation to take place. Both dress to attract each other and frequent places where suitable partners are likely to appear. So it is and so it will always be. This is neither outdated, reactionary nor pathetic.

Oh yes it is. All that and much more. Such an archaic perception is dangerous, nonsensical bollocks. And it's perpetuating the myth upheld by a minority of extremely pathetic blokes that it's OK for them to use music venues as pick-up joints. No. it isn't.

URGENT RECOMMENDED READING: Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:25 AM

LIzzie, as one who has taught adolescents (and has the grey hairs to prove it) I found it disturbing that lots of parents wanted to put teachers in charge of teaching the students such basic things as manners, as well as the more conventional parts of the curriculum. Many parents were unable to act effectively as parents and many seemed unaware that they had little intention of acting effectively as parents. Disturbing and distressing.

At the time, the only way I could understand 'why' was to interpret other aspects of the society in which I operated. It seemed to me at the time that the biggest growth industry was "administration" and that the ultimate effect of administration was to remove "responsibility" from more and more of the participants. The end result seemed to me to be a deskilling of the population.

A long bow? Perhaps. But I've never willingly relinquished what I regard as my right to make decisions over the things that mattered to me and which I regarded as my responsibility. So, how does one teach "responsibility" to adolescents? If nobody teaches it they can't learn it and they just repeat the mistakes of their parents. And their teachers, I might add. The only way I could teach such skills was to give them the opportunity to make decisions that were important and support them after the inevitable (hopefully, only occasional) mistakes.

Not an approach guaranteed to make one popular with either parents or authorities, but I kid myself that it has worked with my daughters. And for all I know, the Pussycat Poppettes or whatever they're called may actually be in charge of their personal lives to both your and my 'satisfaction'; I can't really tell. While they might be sensible young women with healthy attitudes offstage (I don't knwo and wouldn't go and find out) it's the manipulators of the industry who are the main problem. And THEY can only get away with their activities because WE let them.

Now, if I object to someone arrogating unto themselves the right to make decisions for me and censor what I can see, I can't really censor others. But I sure can censure them and I suggest that others do too. I'm not sure I'm interested in "beauty pageants" even for those who are aware and in charge of their sexuality but the parents who put their prepubescents through them need to be given a serious reality check and serious opprobium. But while I may be caustic I'm not too good at being a scold. So I avoid them and their ilk like the plague and am happy to tell them why.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:28 AM

I'm reserving judgement, Lizzie. I think it is just a fasion fad and, like all other fasion fads, it will change very soon. Someone further up the thread said 'We have changed into our parents' and I think that is perfectly true. What I TRY (don't always suceed!) to do is think 'what would Dave Polshaw -40 years do?' and the answer is inevitably that he would have resented me interfering. While I agree with much of the principle of what you say I do believe that we should indeed keep our eye on things but we should also remember that fasion is a very trite thing to get wound up about!

I remember, not too long ago, when we had teenagers in the house. They were very much into the Goth scene and Marilyn Manson was a big favourite. When I heard comments from my peers and contemporaries about how weird and perverted this guy seemed I only needed to say 2 words to stop them in their tracks. Alice Cooper:-)

These things come and go with alarming regularity.

Cheers

Dave
(Are we near 100 yet?)

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:32 AM

No.
2 to go.
Go away and read The Handmaid's Tale.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:33 AM

Well, did you?

[100]

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:41 AM

"From: Diane Easby - PM
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:32 AM

No.
2 to go.
Go away and read The Handmaid's Tale.


From: Diane Easby - PM
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:33 AM

Well, did you?"


I will take it as a compliment to our speed of reading, and NOT as a comment on how much time we should have spent on the referenced story.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:42 AM

Damn! I am a quick reader, but not that quick! I will certainly give it a whirl. I did think that I was being quite reasonable though. I do realy know how to behave and, more often than not, will behave with the upmost respect for anyone I meet and talk to, regardless of sex, race, creed or any of the other millions of things that people have 'isms' about. At least I hope so. I am of the opinion that everyone deserves respect until such a time as they prove otherwise! Most politicians fall into the latter category and I hope no-one feels that I started this thread with any agenda other than the one I stated.

This thread obviously has some elements of the blokishness that Diane mentions or she would not have said as much. If I am guilty of the same I do apologise sincerely and would like to know how I can avoid such a thing in the future.

Diane?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:49 AM

Wikipedia's page on The Handmaid's Tale

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:51 AM

No, you are not guilty of blokishness, Dave.
At this moment I am overwhelmingly pissed off with the 'anti-feminist and proud of it' tendency.
The Handmaid's Tale is the most chilling piece of writing you could ever encounter of what could happen if those (and they're not all men) of this frighteningly crass disposition get their power-driven way.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:06 AM

From Diane:

>>>At this moment I am overwhelmingly pissed off with the 'anti-feminist and proud of it' tendency.<<<

Eh?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:10 AM

One of them odd co-incidences. I looked at the Wiki link from Diane. It mentions that the Handmaidens Tale is set in the republic of Gilead. Earlier both Diane and I posted on the Childe Rowlande thread. I mentioned the Stephen King Dark Tower series which, if I remember rightly, is also in, or at least searching for, Gilead! A link worthy of Mr King himself:-)

I know Gilead is a biblical reference but coming across it twice in a day is a bit much for my little grey cells...

:D

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:11 AM

Whoops - sorry Lizzie. Lizzies link to the Wiki entry...

(Note to self. Read the thread properly.)

Mea Culpa.

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:12 AM

God this thread is so exciting!

It reminds me of the log of the Starship Enterprise.

Jim and his fiends arrive on another planet in another galaxy Suddenly two of the crew (Bones and Ahoura) start acting funny - for they have been taken over by the strange sounds.

The strange sounds turn out to come from a folk club with Diane and Jim Carrol being very nice to old traditional singers, who can't sing in tune and get nervous of open spaces.

Or is it the other breed who live in the folk club on the other side of the planet. They all have deep foreheads and say, sling out the old farts - book acts like the Watersons , Kate Rusby and The Pussyact Dolls - they all sing in tine, despite their strange dress sense and singing in strange voices. I mean keep it traditional.

The only way to decide it, who has the best ray gun.

Phasers are on stun, and the atmosphere is tense. All anyone can say for sure is that the one who falls in love with Jim will die, like she did last week.

beam me up, Scotty!

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:16 AM

Diane, I have read The Handmaid's Tale, and am attempting without success to understand how you go from sexualised stage productions and men picking up women or vice-versa (it does occur, you know) to Margaret Atwood's very chilling story of the reactionary religious male right essentially disenfranchising and enslaving all the women in the country. One point Atwood was making was that religious conservative men, while decrying sexuality in women on the one hand, in secret liked to sexualise and objectify women in very obvious ways, as opposed to the former state of sexual equality and accepted sexual display. What exactly are you trying to get at, (because I frankly am confused as to your intent)?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:20 AM

So, when the Teenangstwhingwriters come in to save the day with their gritty accounts of what realy matters in the world? Set phasers to all strings tuned up to A, nearly. It's music, Jim, but not as we know it.

:D

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:47 AM

Just logged in, top 2 threads currently are: "Do I need a Vibrator" and "Using sex to sell songs"

I must have the wrong discussion forum.........

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 11:05 AM

Rowan, if more parents were like you, the world would be a far better place.

Yes, governments have taken over the decision making for our children and it sends horrors through me!

But then haven't we belittled parenthood? It is now nothing to be a mother, everything in life centres on 'a career'...and yet...isn't the most important 'job' in life that of bringing up the next generation?

I have friends who are younger than me. I'm an older Mum with children of quite different ages, 20 and 12..My younger friends are afraid to make decisions for their children. They are frightened of how 'society' may judge them...I've had no such problems, belonging to an older time. But the younger parents question and worry about everything, they analyse and then often back down and in the end, it becomes 'someone else's problem'

Yes, our teachers are having far too much put on their shoulders at present, when it comes to teaching children right and wrong, that is something that has always come from parents or grandparents and it still should.

Parents are being constantly told what they should not do for their children, instead of what they should. And WHY does the State interfere in something that has nothing do with it? When I was little my parents weren't told what to do or how to behave by the Government of the day. There was no Minister For Children....but there were parents, far more repsonsible ones than irresponsible..

The Pussycats may have University Degrees coming out of their ears, for all I know, they may be the most wondrous social workers around, giving their fortunes to the poor and needy...BUT..nothing..NOTHING excuses how they choose to behave on stage in their public persona. They are not forced to do that, they CHOOSE to and they do it KNOWING that children are looking up to them.

They need to learn from wise people..such as Patch Adams, and reach for his standards...these are just a few of his words...

"Our system of "people fame" values self-centeredness and wealth. I want to live in a world where people become famous because of their work for peace and justice and care. I want the famous to be inspiring; their lives an example of what every human being has it in them to do — act from love!"

I would say that chances are that the Pussycats are pretty much like that in real life, having been brought up to believe that the ultimate goal in life is to be a popstar....


I was actually quite sickened by that whole Live Earth concert. They had such an INCREDIBLE opportunity there to start to turn things right around, to unite the world as never before, to fill stages around the world with Incredibly Inspirational People, ones who are natural leaders, ones who make every generation sit up and listen! There are so many wondrous musicians and poets with words that can start to change the world, but WHERE WERE THEY!!!!

Al Gore should be hanging his head in shame, for overseeing the most Dumbed Down, Idiotic, Badly Produced, Non-Sensical, Whimsical Concert that I've seen in many a long year!!

That concert was SO vital! And I watched it with unfolding horror, as act after vacuous act came on stage with barely a message or a song or thought of any depth!

I could of filled those stages, right around the world, with songwriters that would have lit torches, started flames to be held high!! Sheesh!! The frustration I feel at times is overwhelming!!
Read these words from Dan Britton...and just think what an impact that would have had at Live Earth...

'THE RETURN OF CRAZY HORSE by DAN BRITTON'

"We need leaders, not self-serving fools
Hanging out with rock stars to make them look cool
They're dealers, just shadows of men
Bringing down bad karma, again and again

"We need leaders, people to trust
Someone to look to who cares about us
We need healers, the medicine men
It's too late for 'if', it's got to be 'when'

"Lily-livered goons, red necked baffoons
Masquerading as leaders of men
They'll be swept aside
Nowhere left to hide
When Crazy Horse rides again
When Crazy Horse rides again

"We need leaders not jobs for the boys
Playing war games like a kid with his toys
They're feeders with vampire eyes
Attracting others like shit attract flies


"Lily-livered goons, red necked baffoons
Masquerading as leaders of men
They'll be swept aside
Nowhere left to hide
When Crazy Horse rides again
When Crazy Horse rides again

Dan Britton Myspace


By the way, Dave, you started this thread for the right reasons and I'm very glad that you did.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 11:09 AM

Since someone brought it up, the Margaret Atwood reference brings to mind a number of tightly wound, sexually repressed fundamentalists I have known over the years. While professing disdain or revulsion when presented with overt sexuality, the same people will quietly confess dealing with barely controlled lust. It's an impossible conundrum and a dangerous and fertile breeding ground for acting out. Is it any surprise that so many priests and preachers, to cite the obvious, fall prey to this inner turmoil? A lot of victims, both male and female, have been victims of this in one way or another, for centuries. There must be hundreds of folk songs with this thread woven through.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 11:34 AM

I too do not understand the connection to A Handmaid's Tale. Yes, I have read it.

As to sex selling music: it is far more insidious. These women create the fads and styles for young people to follow. Before we blame the young, remember how Nehru instigated the Nehru suit and Jacqui Kennedy had us all wearing black lace mantillas while the elder bushette brought the sale of cheap pearls to record highs.

The latest teeny rock idol appears in black leather S&M and next week Penney's has a cheap knock-up in sizes 3T to 3X.

But alanabit has hit the nail on the head. In a few months this non-talented group is gone not to be heard of again until 2012 when they appear on some "not in prime time show" about Where in the World Is? or they'll be hawking face creams and Polident.

The teens who idolized them will sheepishly admit "I was a fan when they first came out." How many times have I heard that about Britney Spears? And they will be as horrified of pictures of themselves in S&M as I am of my geometric haircut circa 1965.
It still leaves the gentlemen wondering where they are supposed to look when a gaggle of girls with nubile bodies prances by in the shopping mall, all dressed (or not) in skimpy suggestive outfits. My advice - stare straight ahead. Or better yet, look at Mom who follows close behind in the same outfit with forty years of living sagging out of it.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 11:53 AM

Could I mention again that I know a lot of kids from babes to late teens, and while fashionable enough, none of them conform to the stereotype of oversexed and sexualised kidlets being thrown about in some posts? I really do think people over react - parents aren't helpless. Kids aren't stupid. You tend to notice the one child out of twenty who's wearing clothes you personally don't approve of.

In 1962, when I was eleven, the popular outfit was a skort - remember those? They were a panty attached to skirt affair, where the skirt barely hit thigh below the panty. Nobody so much as blinked.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 11:58 AM

Wasp/hornet/bee or whatever you're calling yourself:

Let me put this simply.
(I do so get incredibly bored with these threads where people leap in at some mid point without a clue of what's gone before nor of the purpose) . . .

Dunno what 'sexualised stage productions' you're on about but I was talking about The Pussycat Dolls (even though I didn't see them because I was watching BBC2 at the time but I did see Madge at the end).

Dave asked the sad old gits who were hanging around at that time of night to consider what that were actually doing . . . and got a string of predictable replies.

The Handmaid's Tale isn't about religion. That is to misunderstand completely the nature of the dystopian subjugation it represents. Women have had every feminist aim so far achieved snatched away thus the heroine has no option left but to become a 'handmaid'. And this is what far too many 'men' and, frighteningly, a fair number of blinkered, what can I call them? 'female persons' think women should be, here in the 'real' world.

Bike/ on/ sunshine/ get /your

Oh and Dave, Childe Rowland isn't just a Stephen King adaptation, it's Dr Who and Camelot as well. Gilead, unsurprisingly, is whiteness in Gaelic. Not so very subtle. Especially when it's a white sheet with eyeslits.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 12:03 PM

Well, I was 9 in 1962 and I never wore one of those:-)

Seriously though, Bee, I agree. It is a minority we are talking about here and I realise that the 'problem', if indeed a problem it is, is nothing like widespread. I would also add, yet again, that it is merely a fasion and these things do come and go.

Maybe it is wrong to treat such things seriously. I was interested to know other peoples views and whether or not they felt the same as me. I do not believe for one minute there is anything earth shattering in it!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 12:10 PM

Aye - saw the other Childe R references, Diane. I may even buy the 5 Doctors. See what you have gone and done now? ;-)

Didn't know that bit about it being white in Gaelic. I thought it was just a place in the bible that had been hijacked by multiple authors as the name of a city or place. Thanks for the info.

Cheers.

D.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 12:20 PM

(Don't respond, Bee - unless you're feeling extremely bored ... ).

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 12:59 PM

(not extremely bored)

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:07 PM

I must admit to flaunting myself to get gigs. High skirts, low blouses. You know, the usual stuff.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:20 PM

Really Jim!! You should of stopped at the high skirts!! (shocked smiley)


It's a gig Jim, but not as we know it.....

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,highlandman
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:31 PM

Careful, Sinsull, you'll get scathed again.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:35 PM

And yet you don't promote that on your site, Jim Lad!

"Wasp/hornet/bee or whatever you're calling yourself:

Let me put this simply.
(I do so get incredibly bored with these threads where people leap in at some mid point without a clue of what's gone before nor of the purpose) . . .

Dunno what 'sexualised stage productions' you're on about but I was talking about The Pussycat Dolls (even though I didn't see them because I was watching BBC2 at the time but I did see Madge at the end).

Dave asked the sad old gits who were hanging around at that time of night to consider what that were actually doing . . . and got a string of predictable replies.

The Handmaid's Tale isn't about religion. That is to misunderstand completely the nature of the dystopian subjugation it represents. Women have had every feminist aim so far achieved snatched away thus the heroine has no option left but to become a 'handmaid'. And this is what far too many 'men' and, frighteningly, a fair number of blinkered, what can I call them? 'female persons' think women should be, here in the 'real' world. " Diane Easby

Diane:

I read the whole damn thread, I have read and understood perfectly well the The Handmaid's Tale, (for one thing, the heroine had no options as she was fertile and therefore forced to be a Handmaid), and it has become perfectly apparent to me that it is not possible for me to ask you a question or ask that you clarify or present a legitimate opinion that is not specifically an echo of your very narrow own without you losing your wig. Allergic to bees, are you? Well and good. Conversing with you is not productive nor is it satisfying, either intellectually or socially or in any other fashion. Pleas do ignore my posts from now on, as I certainly won't bother with yours.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:56 PM

Yes, that's right. 'Offred' had no options.
And that's what's scary.

I'm assuming (though could be wrong since you are not at all clear about it) that you share the view of the other (few) female persons who have wandered into here only to be reactionary and complacent.
They DO have options but don't value how these rights have been won and choose not to exercise them.
And you haven't asked me any questions (other than 'What exactly are you trying to get at?).
This is a total non-question as I am not trying to get at anything.
I answered Dave's question about mixed messages in a totally straightforward way (surrounded though it was with a sea of blokish outpourings) within the first few minutes of the thread last Saturday night.

Yes, I ignore any posts about anything so trivial as clothes. They don't interest me, especially since they are NOT THE POINT.

Ah, the shortness of life and the trivialities of they who waste it.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 02:33 PM

'Yes, I ignore any posts about anything so trivial as clothes. They don't interest me, especially since they are NOT THE POINT.

Ah, the shortness of life and the trivialities of they who waste it.'


Warp Factor 10, if I ever I saw one.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 02:39 PM

Warp Factor 10

'Twould be a tad further on topic.
Since we are supposed to be talking about MUSIC here, not what passes for substitutes.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 02:42 PM

Lizzie Cornish: Heh, heh!
Good one kid. I'll think twice before I click on your links from now on.
Cheers!
Jim

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 02:51 PM

At the risk of upsetting the Duchess here, patient as she is, I do think that this thread is about music although not necessarily folk.
Promoters these days are apparently hiring strippers to cut albums. No?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:09 PM

surprising as it may seem to some folk(pun intended) there are other musical genres, and quite right, Jim, nowhere on Mudcat does it say we're limited to discussing folk music (At the risk of upsetting the Duchess here)*LOL*

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:43 PM

Just as I thought the craft is in the grip of an alien force - non folk music. people are listening to this stuff, dancing, thinking improper thoughts - for it has strange powers.......

Oh horror! Will we ever return to the days when the whole room fidgetted in glum concentration on slip jigs that nobody danced to, and the thrilling adventures of the pretty ploughboy.....?

Theres nothing for it......the phasers have jammed! We must go up to Warp factor 20, try to break out from the space time continuum, til its 1972 again.

(This is the bit where everything starts shaking on the deck of The Enterprise, and the 'walk on ones' run round a bit!)

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:48 PM

And the lads in red shirts know their time has come?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 04:31 PM

"Oh horror! Will we ever return to the days when the whole room fidgetted in glum concentration on slip jigs that nobody danced to, and the thrilling adventures of the pretty ploughboy.....?"

or the hunt for The Bonny Black Hare, with gun and ramrod, and bullets likewise.....

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:25 PM

When I read Lizzie's "My younger friends are afraid to make decisions for their children. They are frightened of how 'society' may judge them" I was reminded of my experiences teaching the adolescent offspring of teachers, social workers and psychologists; it was certainly more straightforward if I was teaching adolescent offspring of physicians or plumbers.

When I became a dad I recognised that, in the eyes of 'professionals' (real or imagined) it wouldn't really matter what I did, it would always have been the" wrong" tack. So their mum and I just concentrated on what we reckoned (and we're both reasonably well-informed and thoughtful) was the right tack and got on with it. And we were lucky enough to have two beaut girls who seem to have acquired the best of us and discarded our less attractive aspects. Confidence helped and seems to have been rewarded.

Occasionally I say to the 16 yr old (but not in particularly stressful conversations) "I treat you like an adult and I expect you to treat me like one too" and she recognises all the metamessages involved. But I still reckon I've been lucky and am thankful the luck has rubbed off on them. But I'm relatively ignorant of some parts of pop culture mentioned in this thread (I've only heard the audio book version of The Handmaid's Tale and inferred - incorrectly it seems - that it was about religion and fundamentalist power politics) and I get the girls to set me straight on their take on it all. That seems to work. And they're certainly aware of who's who in the zoo and what goes on at the National every Easter in Canberra.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 09:40 AM

It all seems to have quietened off so I guess I can now summarise the conclusions I have come to - You don't need to agree of course!

The acts like the ones discussed are as bad if not worse than the men who see them as sex objects.

I can, however, safely ignore them as they in a minority and are so trite as to escape below the radar of common sense.

It is disturbing that they provide a role model for youngsters but the children emulating them will grow out of in most cases. The fad will in itself fade soon enough anyway.

They are perfectly entitled to do what they want. Those who are driven to responding in a sexual manner need to learn to distiguish life from fantasy.

Best thing is to ignore and forget it, which I now intend to do.

One thing I have not made up my mind about yet. There seems to be a suggestion that these acts are a product of traditional music. I cannot see the connection myself and don't know if the perpetrators of this view would care to elucidate but if they do I would suggest a seperate thread. There are too many issues here already.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 10:17 AM

No!...the little girls who watch them will grow up to be the next Pussycat Purries Dave..

And so many of our female children regard THEMSELVES as sex objects!

You/we forget/ignore it all at our peril!

Look deeper, look behind, look beyond....NEVER stop looking!

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" - Martin Luther King Jr.

He knew that it was not the shouts of the bad people that was the problem, it was the utter silence of the good ones.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 10:39 AM

Are you sure you're looking that deep?

How sensible is it to pretend that children are assexual, the characters in some sort of Enid Blyton novel - like many of the parents of my generation did.

Everybody gets it wrong, it seems to me.

i saw a lady go mad and ridicule her little son when he put topless pictures of Sam Fox on his the box for his sndwiches that he took to school. (see how careful i have to be saying lunchbox!). It seemed to me the little chap had come to her with nascent sexuality and she had rejected his sexuality.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,OLD TIMER- GROUCHO
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 11:05 AM

WHATS ALL THE FUSS ABOUT? ITS BEING GOING ON SINCE THE BROADSHEET DAYS---VISUAL TECHNOLOGY LEAVES LESS TO THE IMAGINATION NOWADAYS, THATS ALL e.g.SEE THREAD " PUT ANOTHER NICKLE IN etc---etc."

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 10:54 PM

Och, it's too bloody late to read the whole thread, and I am getting older by the second, so I hope no one else said this, but this is the kind of question you pose when you are really getting on... when I was a teenager grown up in a singing family, my only thoughts were about using songs to sell sex... "woould ye like t'coome up te' me flat and have me sing sweet sad songs t'ye lassie...

lorcan

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 12:41 PM

This thread began when I was a younger person...my whole perception has changed since then.

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 12:48 PM

Wasn't that the "Rocket Rattle", Lorcan?   - sing "Come Away Melinda" or "Eve of Destruction" - and then start, earnestly "If we hurry, we may just have time to reach my flat and fulfil the meaning of our lives in love, before the bombs start to fall...."?

Subject: RE: Using sex to sell songs.
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 12:50 PM

Larry,
Were you in Quaker dress at the time?
SINS