Remember the Alamo?

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,daniel munoz
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 10:20 PM

I learned a lot today by reading everyone's comments. thanks. I am proud to be a TEXAN, AMERICAN OF MEXICAN DESCENT.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:25 AM

This is just a brief response to the "Why Davy Crocket" query.

My Dad was born in Beaumont, Texas, on the gulf coast. His great-grandfather, John McGaffey, was the first settler at Sabine Pass, in about 1822. Two relatives later died in the Alamo battle and another participated in the one at San Jacinto. That does not make me any sort of authority, but did cause me to do a great deal of reading on the battle and events leading to it. Like many who visit the Alamo, as I did in 2000, I was struck by how this small chapel was ever thought to be defensible. A lot of "ordinary" and otherwise unknown men died there, but most remember the names of Bowie, Crockett and Travis.

David Crockett undoubtedly became a major focus of the Alamo fight simply because he had created a larger than life persona for himself long before arriving from Tennessee. He had served in Congress and was well known, unlike many of the other participants. Tall tales had already been told of Crockett's exploits (both real and imagined) before he ever set foot in Texas. Myth weavers need their champions, and he certainly was an easy fit. None of this detracts from the honor accorded him for his participation at San Antonio. As his Mexican conquerers later said, "He fought and died well and honorably." So, of course, did many others.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Will p. mulkis
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:07 AM

why is davy crockett so important??????????????????????

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 12 May 08 - 06:17 PM

No worries, Marc. And I certainly agree with you Tejanos are often treated as foreighers around here. I see it all the time.
- Phil

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 12 May 08 - 04:02 PM

I stand corrected. Thank you Uncle Phil. I might also do well to proof read my early morning rant, the next time I feel like climbing on a soap box.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 12 May 08 - 12:16 AM

Dave, you might try contacting the Alamo Defenders Descendents Association (http://www.alamodescendants.org/) or the Daughters of the Republic of Texas (http://drt-inc.org/). Another Scot, John McGregor, is better known. Defenders listed as from Kentucky, Tennessee, and points south are most likely of protestant Scots/Irish descent, some of them perhaps born in the old country.
- Phil

Here's a couple bits from the indespensable Handbook of Texas Online.(http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/BB/fbadt.html)

BALLENTINE, RICHARD W. (1814-1836). Richard W. Ballentine, Alamo defender, was born in Scotland in 1814. He traveled to Texas from Alabama aboard the Santiago and disembarked on December 9, 1835. He and the other passengers signed a statement declaring, "we have left every endearment at our respective places of abode in the United States of America, to maintain and defend our brethren, at the peril of our lives, liberties and fortunes." Ballentine died in the battle of the Alamoqv on March 6, 1836.
BIBLIOGRAPHY: Daughters of the American Revolution, The Alamo Heroes and Their Revolutionary Ancestors (San Antonio, 1976). Bill Groneman, Alamo Defenders (Austin: Eakin, 1990). John H. Jenkins, ed., The Papers of the Texas Revolution, 1835-1836 (10 vols., Austin: Presidial Press, 1973).
Bill Groneman

MCGREGOR, JOHN (1808–1836). John McGregor, bagpiper and Alamo defender, was born in Scotland in 1808. McGregor lived in early 1836 in Nacogdoches. He took part in the siege of Bexar and later served in the Alamo garrison as a second sergeant of Capt. William R. Carey'sqv artillery company. It is said that during the siege of the Alamo, he engaged in musical duels with David Crockett,qv McGregor playing the bagpipes and Crockett the fiddle. McGregor died in the battle of the Alamo on March 6, 1836.
BIBLIOGRAPHY: Daughters of the American Revolution, The Alamo Heroes and Their Revolutionary Ancestors (San Antonio, 1976). Daughters of the Republic of Texas, Muster Rolls of the Texas Revolution (Austin, 1986). Bill Groneman, Alamo Defenders (Austin: Eakin, 1990).
Bill Groneman

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 12 May 08 - 12:15 AM

The Tejanos who died defending the Alamo were Juan Abamillo, Juan Badillo, Carlos Espalier, Gregorio Esparza, Antonio Fuentes, José María Guerrero, Damacio Jimenes, Toribio Losoya, and Andrés Nava. Juan Sequin, the most prominent Tejano at the Alamo, was away from the garrison looking for reinforcements when the Alamo fell on 6 March. Sequin then raised a company of two dozen Tejanos and led them at the Battle of San Jacinto.

The Mexican Army was a professional, European-style army. Santa Anna crossed the Rio Grande on 16 February and made it to San Antonio by the 23rd without firing a shot. There was no need for him to impress local Tejanos, nor were very many local Tejanos to impress for reasons discussed earlier in this thread.

It is true that Mexican army included both veteran units and new recruits. Santa Anna didn't think much of the recruits. His orders at the Alamo insisted that they stay in camp during the actual assault. He writes, in his description of San Jacinto, that the recruits "formed platoons" that surrounded the veterans so neither group could use their arms.

It's true that Hispanic-Texans are sometimes considered foreigners by some Anglo-Texans, even if their ancestors have been here for generations. It ain't right, but it's certainly true.
- Phil

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 May 08 - 07:33 PM

"Ballentine, John J. (Pennsylvania)

Ballantine, Richard W. (Scotland)"

Is there any further information about these two Alamo defenders? The second one especially is probably a long lost cousin, though the only members of the family that I know of in the America at this time are Robert Ballantine (b1839 in Edinburgh) who worked as a cabinet maker in San Francisco, and George Knox Ballantine (b1846 in Edinburgh) who served on the USS Tuscarona. Richard W could possibly be acousin of their father Peter.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:37 AM

"I think that the word they themselves used at the time was "Texicans"."

Texican is an American settler in Texas, Tejano is a Native Texan. Texicans spoke English and were faithful protestants, Tejanos spoke Spanish and you guessed it Catholic, more or less. The Tejanos were and are not Mexicans, They'v been in Texas longer than there have been English speaking people in the New World. Although there has certainly been immigration from Mexico to Texas, some of the folks they call Mexicans in Texas are in reality Texans, though that's hard to accept for an English speaking protestant.

Uncle Phil, I'v enjoyed your posts very much. They appear to be well researched. I'd like to add one more facet to your description of the Alamo. I'd always been lead to understand that there were as many Tejanos as Texicans defending the Alamo, and as a result of the way history is written, we've been taught the battle was fought by English speaking white folk. As for the other side, The non english speaking brown folk who attacked the Alamo. Santa Annas army was in fact not the professional European style army that history teaches us. He had suffered great casualties leading up to the siege, and thusly had rely heavily on impressing local Tejanos. So when it can time to attack repeatedly he was not throwing well trained Mexicans at the strong hold, they were disposable tejanos who had no choice. Now they're not even considered Texan.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 10 May 08 - 03:34 PM

TG, the other Fehrenbach book is Blood and Fire: a History of Mexico (ISBN:0-512-4766730). It is available on Amazon.

Here is a picture of the San Jacinto battlefield today. Houston's camp is south of the concession stand where the sidewalks are laid out like a spoked wheel. That side of Texas Hwy 139 was heavy woods. Houston assembled his troops in a line abreast at the edge of the woods, about where 139 runs today. According to Houston's report of the battle, they advanced to within 200 yards (about ¾ the length of the reflecting pool) before commencing cannon fire with grapeshot and canister. The cannon stopped there. The rest of the line moved forward but held their fire until they were at point blank range, near where the monument is today.
- Phil

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:49 AM

That is the Spanish language term for a native of Texas. Well, a male native of Texas, to be specific.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:45 AM

Or Tejano.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 06:38 PM

Spot on, LH. Texican (rhymes with Mexican) is just what they called themselves. Folks who write about the period tend to use the word, but now days we say Texan instead.
- Phil

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:29 PM

Possibly...

I think that the word they themselves used at the time was "Texicans".

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 06:40 PM

Or did he fear that reinforcements for the Texicans might be coming? (BTW, is that what they called themselves, or is that a modern coinage?).

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 06:15 PM

Another interesting point about the Mexican attack, Uncle Phil. Santa Ana chose to launch it in the wee hours of the morning under cover of darkness. This was clearly done with the hope that the Mexicans could achieve surprise and get close, perhaps even over the walls, before they were detected by the garrison. In this way they could hopefully avoid being under sustained fire in the open where they were most exposed.

The recent movie got it right, and showed the attack as a stealthy night attack. Most of the older movies showed it as a day attack, with the colorful ranks of Mexicans charging gloriously into the Texan guns and dying like flies. As it was, they took very heavy losses anyway, but not as heavy as they would have by attacking in daylight.

Santa Ana's attack appears to have been well planned. The Texan defense appears to have been handled very well also. They reacted quickly and inflicted great damage on the Mexican troops.

The one real puzzle is, why did Santa Ana not wait another 24 hours for his heavy artillery to arrive? If so, he could have knocked down the walls.

He must have been consumed with impatience, I suppose...

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Mad Jock
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:58 PM

A great song about the alamo is by Kevin Brown a fantastc blues guitarist. It is on his Tin Church CD and refers to the fact that 4 men from Lancs died at the Alamo !
It is "Lancashire Blood on a Texas Floor."
O
Thw other tracks are great as well.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 12:45 AM

Well, if nothing else this thread has got me reading Texas history again, particularly stuff written during the Texas revolution. (Wallace O. Chariton,,ed; 100 Days in Texas; ISBN 1-55622-131-2).

The last letters included from the Alamo itself were on 3 March, 3 days before the final Mexican assault. Three were from Travis and one from Isaac Millsap to his wife (Chariton notes that the Millsap letter may be a forgery in a long footnote). Travis and Millsap sound worried, but express hope that reinforcements will arrive. Who knows what went through the defenders minds over the next few days when no reinforcements showed up and the Mexican siege tightened.

The Alamo, in the end, was a victory for the veteran, disciplined Mexican regulars. Santa Anna's attack order lists only veteran units to participate in the attack, and goes on to say "Recruits deficient in training will remain in their quarters".

The Alamo held a large collection of cannon and of muskets captured from the Mexicans the previous December. It may be that each Texican marksman had a stack of loaded Mexican muskets by them on the walls when the final attack began. It took discipline, and some serious cajones, for the Mexican army to charge those walls with bayonets and scaling ladders, not once but three times before the fort was taken. But the losses they suffered were just too heavy to be sustained -- the trained disciplined regular army veterans could not be replaced by recruits.

The rest is, as they say, history. The siege of the Alamo took 13 days, the actual battle at San Jacinto only took 20 minutes. The hastily organized and outnumbered Texicans easily routed a large part of Santa Anna's remaining regular army, captured Santa Anna, and lines on maps began to move.

- Phil

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:57 PM

I think that, apart from simple snobbery, the contempt regular soldiers often have for irregulars comes from having seen or heard of them breaking and running in face of an overwhelming attack, whereas the disciplined regulars tend to hang on longer, sometimes long enough for the tide of the battle to turn. Usually when the irregular forces crumble like that, it's because they've been put into an unsuitable situation through the incompetence or bad luck of their commanders.

Not surprisingly, throughout history regular forces have usually defeated irregulars in situations which give advantage to their discipline, training and weaponry; irregulars win when the situation gives advantage to their individualism, knowledge of the local environment, ability to travel quick and light, and their weaponry. Often it seems that difference in numbers aren't as significant as these other factors.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:30 PM

To greg stephens - Great thread. There are so many great songs about the Alamo that I, an American growing up overseas and thus elarning US history through folk songs, thought that it had been a great victory - for the US, I mean.
Oh, and to another poster - I've met as lot of Texan men, but none of them have been really hung. Isn't it still "hanged" for criminals and "hung" for pictures, when not making references to anyone's genical endowment? I believe that is the only vestige of human-nonhuman noun classification in English.
And thanks for all the cool Alamo information, everybody else!

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 02:27 PM

I remember that the KT, Donovan, and Cash had significantly different versions of the words and music, but I haven't heard any of them in a long time. For some reason I remember Donovan singing "Jim Bowie lay dying, his blood and his powder were dry", which is pretty weird, rather than the words posted in this thread.

Regular armies of that time never seemed to understand how effective American irregular forces, with "their superior technology, careful control of their rate of fire, and higher lethality of fire" to borrow Guest's words, really were. The British marching into the combined rifle and artillery fire of Jackson and Lafitte's men at New Orleans is an obvious example.

Texas ranging companys were assigned to the US Army in Mexican War. Regular American officers initially dismissed them as ill-disciplined and disrespectful, but as the war progressed the Texan irregulars played somc key roles. The Mexican army was well on the way to defeating Taylor at the Battle of Monterrey until the Texans, along with some US Infantry, captured the Mexican heavy artillery on the high ground. And at Cerro Gordo Santa Anna (remember Santa Anna) had a commanding position across the road to the City of Mexico until the Texas irregulars found a path through the mountains that allowed Scott flank Santa Anna.

Regular armies of modern times still have problems with irregulars such as the French Resistance, the IRA, the Viet Cong, or Mahdi Militias, don't they?

- Phil

One more story then I'll shut up. In the Mexican War one of the reasons the regular army officers thought the Texan irregulars were rude was that the irregulars addressed all commanding officers, regardless of rank, as captain.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, Spanish infantry units based in Presidios were unable to protect the frontier. The Anglos, all the way back to Austin's colonies, instead organized mobile, mounted ranging companies for frontier defense. Each company was commanded by a captain, as is a company in most armies. Since captain was they highest rank used by most Texans, it may be that they were using the word captain as a synonym for the guy in charge, rather that being disrespectful. I doubt it, though. I prefer to think that the Texans were perfectly aware of the US officer's actual ranks but preferred to be disrespectful.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 01:30 PM

You're right in much of what you say, Guest. Yes, land was held by strength. Yes, they thought they were the toughest fighters around.

However, I think they knew very well that they were doomed, once the Mexican army had the place surrounded. Santa Ana had made it clear that they would be offered no mercy. He had the numbers to overwhelm the defenses. The Texicans did not have enough men to prevent the walls from being taken. The final letters sent out by Travis and other men at the Alamo make it quite clear that they did not expect to survive the final battle, but were resolved to die fighting.

Those men, as you suggest, were experienced frontier fighters. They knew when you can expect to survive and when you can't. This was a case where the chances of survival were nil, and I think they knew it.

The recent movie shows this quite poignantly, particulary in the tired eyes of David Crockett. He looks around at the walls, looks out at the Mexican army marching in...

"We're gonna need more men. We're gonna need a lot more men."

He knew what the odds were.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 12:43 AM

Remember-- These men thought they were the toughest men on the planet. I don't think that they had the least idea that they were doomed because they were outnumbered.

Frontiersmen and mountain men of the same era had defended countless positions against large forces and survived by superior technology, careful control of their rate of fire, and higher lethality of fire.

In this case they were wrong and died, but their peers under Houston proved their point anyway.

As for theft, give me a break. Who were they stealing from, the King of Spain? Mexican grantees? The Comanches? All of these folks thought that toughness was how land was held. None of them had anything like what we would call good title. The Texicans held title the way everybody else did, except that their title has held up for a while. Santa Ana didn't sob for the dead men of the Alamo and Goliad. I doubt his ghost expects you to sob for him either.

I don't hold with the notion that winners must have cheated the losers. Sometimes they just played the game of frontier survival and land occupation better.

---

Please remember to put a consistent poster name in the "from" box when you post a message. Anonymous messages risk deletion.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:59 PM

Donovan made a number of clumsy and quite odd errors (or revisions?) in the lyrics to that song for some reason. The original version scans better and makes a good deal more sense.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 02:46 AM

The words have been posted for the songs. Any chords available?

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 01:24 AM

I think you'll find that the online version covers most if not all of what the print version does. It's quite a resource, very well researched and written. I was able to get quite a bit out of it about the Negro League baseball teams and various Texas sports stars and venues when I was writing a book chapter about sports and recreation in the American Southwest. It has a huge range of topics.

SRS

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Leave me off the mailing lists
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 12:48 AM

Thanks for your insightful post back there Uncle Phil. Been years since I've read Texas history books too. My last big acquisition was The New Handbook of Texas. 6 huge volumes, double-columned, thousands of pages. Enormous amount of research. More of an encyclopedia but there's lots in it about the Alamo and the War. I read hundreds of entries, and now I keep a list and sit down occasionally to read. The set is on eBay affordably from time to time.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 11:22 PM

Sorry for the confusion over my name, and thanks to Guest,meself for clearing things up for everyone.

It's a fair bet that someone in the Mexican army took Bowie's knife as spoils of war, but I don't know how you could identify an antique knife as "the" Bowie knife today. A bit of folklore -- Bowie's mother is often quoted as saying, upon hearing of James' death at the Alamo, "I'll wager they found no wounds on his back".

If you want to learn what Bowie was really like then I'd recommend reading a book named Three Roads to the Alamo. The book is three biographies, about Crockett, Bowie and Travis, in one volume. The Bowie biography is the only good biography of him I've ever read. (William C. Davis, Three Roads to the Alamo, ISBN 0-06-017334-3.

It's been years since I read the Texas history books I've been talking about in this thread. Maybe it's time to read them again.
- Phil

Subject: Lyr Add: THE ALAMO (from Donovan Leitch)
From: rumanci
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 07:27 PM

Source: http://www.sing365.com

The Alamo
   ------Donovan Leitch

880 were challenged by Travis to die
By a line that he drew with his sword as the battle drew nigh
A man that crossed over the line was for glory
And he that was left better fly
And over the line crossed 179
Hey Up Santa Anna, they're killing your soldiers below
So the rest of Texas will know
And remember the Alamo

Jim Bowie lay dying, the blood and the sweat in his eyes
But his knife at the ready to take him a few in reply
Young Davy Crockett lay laughing and dying
The blood and the sweat in his eyes
For Texas and freedom a man was more willing to die
Hey Up Santa Anna, they're killing your soldiers below
So the rest of Texas will know
And remember the Alamo

A courier came to a battle once bloody and loud
And found only skin and bones where he once left a crowd
Fear not little darling of dying
If this world be sovereign and free
For we'll fight to the last for as long as liberty be
Hey Up Santa Anna, they're killing your soldiers below
So the rest of Texas will know
And remember the Alamo

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: SouthernCelt
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 07:23 PM

A couple of questions that I haven't seen covered in this thread:

Back in his acoustic folk days, Donovan did a song with the line something like "Hey, look, Santa Ana, they're killing your soldiers below so the rest of Texas will know and remember the Alamo." I checked in the digitrad and didn't see that in any of the Alamo-related songs. Anyone know what I'm talking about...or has my memory totally failed me this time?

Secondly, has there ever been a definitive decision on the legends: Crockett and maybe others didn't die in battle at the Alamo but were executed by direction of Santa Ana himself, and
one of the Mexican officers took the famous Bowie knife as a war trophy and that it still exists somewhere in Mexico but is kept a secret because they fear the US will ask for it back? (If we could get a hold of the original knife perhaps a bit of metallurgical analysis could resolve another legend that purports the knife to have been forged from a metallic meteorite with unknown alloy contents which made it even more unique. (I'm in Mississippi, which is where Resin Bowie lived and died and where Jim spent a lot of time, especially Natchez. The famous location of the sandbar knife duel that gave the knife its mystique is just across the Miss. River from Natchez.)

Anybody care to take on any of this?

SC

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:08 PM

Yes: there's the good Uncle Phil and the evil Uncle Phil. Hard to tell them apart.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 11:37 AM

Yeah, that's my theory. When you've already won several campaigns with a professional army against ragtag revolutionary forces...you figure on more of the same.

By the way, are there two Uncle Phil's here? Or what's going on? ;-)

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 11:19 AM

"He (Santa Anna) spent a lot of time putting down revolutions in other parts of Mexico and may have assumed that he was facing the same sort of opposition."

Good point, often overlooked when folks north of the border talk about the Texas War for Independence.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:58 AM

Uncle Phil - You're being far too hard on poor Uncle Phil over what was, by all acounts, an innocent mistake. I feel an apology is in order.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:24 AM

I like "Remember the Alamo" and have known it forever. But I wonder why no one ever wrote a better song about the Alamo or why there isn't a really great folk song associated with it. It just seems like there should be one.
- Phil

Stray dogs and cats:
Maggie – love the Texas History Online link, especially since they have entries for the Lightcrust Doughboys, Earnest Tubb, Big Mama Thornton, Bob Wills, etc. I showed it to Michelle, but she already had it bookmarked. I would have posted this yesterday if I hadn't spent so much time browsing there.

Uncle Phil - I am appalled to see that you attributed the "die in these ditches" quote to Travis. It is a quote from a letter written by Bowie, you fool.

Guest - Menger Hotel, Gunter Hotel. Lots of good German names in ole San Antone. I reckon that when I die, if I've lead a good life, I'll go to the bar in the Menger Hotel.

Mark – Louis Rose was a real guy. He fought in Napoleon's army and in other battles in Texas. His name appears as a witness in land claims for the heirs of Alamo defenders, so it seems folks in his own time believed that he was at the Alamo during the siege and trusted him. No evidence that his contemporaries considered him to be "yellow" for leaving the Alamo. Clever play on words, though. I'll probably borrow it sometime.

Michael – No deep thought was involved in that speculation; it's just interesting to consider on how historic events tie together. Beer helps. However, I sure do believe that world history and maps in the 20th Century were greatly influenced, for good or ill, by what a small group of colonists did in Texas in 1836.

LH – There are some puzzles about Texas Revolution that we will never know that answers to. Why Santa Anna divided his forces is a puzzle. Houston allowing Mexican reinforcements to arrive before attacking at San Jacinto and Santa Anna attacking the Alamo just before his heavy artillery arrived in SA are a couple other puzzles.

It's clear that Santa Anna underestimated the Texican irregulars. He spent a lot of time putting down revolutions in other parts of Mexico and may have assumed that he was facing the same sort of opposition.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 06:38 PM

"Or, for that matter, what would a map of Europe look if the US had remained a small nation unable to join the allies in WWI or WWII ?"

Uncle Phil -

While I generally agree with your overview of the events in question, your speculative point about twentieth-century Europe bothers me . . . (and I hate to be a stick in the mud about this) . . . HOWEVER, US involvement in the Great War led to the Treaty of Versailles, which led to the rise of the National Socialists in Germany, and thus to WWII.

WWI also gave us the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia - damn, that "War to End All Wars" was a disastrously stupid war.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:54 PM

I don't see why there should be any stigma attached to someone leaving the Alamo before the battle. I think the chances of slipping through the Mexican lines must have appeared quite slim, so it would have taken considerable guts either to go or to stay. He who went might be of use to the Texan army in future battles, after all. Dead heroes are great, but to win the next battle you need some live ones too.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: MARINER
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:25 PM

There is a song called "Moses Rose of Texas " to the same air as the "Yellow Rose" but I think it's more of a parody than the real thing . It's by some modern day cowboy group.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 12:06 PM

That fellow Rose who declined to die for Texas, was that the origin of the song THE YELLOW ROSE OF TEXAS?

No.

The "Yellow Rose of Texas" is generally believed to be a mulatto woman, a free black woman, who worked for the Morgan household. Her name was Emily West. The newsletter in this link has a long article about some papers we hold at UTA and about who Emily West was (and wasn't).

SRS

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Leave me off the mailing lists
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 12:38 AM

I mentioned the Menger Hotel, but another famous one in San Antonio is the Gunter Hotel. It's where Robert Johnson had his famous recording session. If your son has an interest in music, it would be an interesting side trip. On Houston Street, downtown. Within walking distance of the Alamo. Been a while, but I think it's 4-5 blocks from the Alamo:

"...Speir, who helped the careers of many blues players, put Johnson in touch with Ernie Oertle, who offered to record the young musician in San Antonio, Texas. At the recording session, held on November 23, 1936 in rooms at the landmark Gunter Hotel which Brunswick Records had set up as a temporary studio, Johnson reportedly performed facing the wall. This has been cited as evidence he was a shy man and reserved performer...

Among the songs Johnson recorded in San Antonio were "Come On In My Kitchen," "Kind Hearted Woman," "I Believe I'll Dust My Broom" and "Cross Roads Blues."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Johnson_(musician)

Going through family photos I found the one at the link below. An uncle on my mother's side, about 1941, 5 years or so after Johnson's recording session. The Gunter in the background:

http://mail.moment.net/~michael/Gunter.JPG

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:07 PM

Great post, Uncle Phil! I always enjoy hearing from someone who is willing to look beneath the surface, check out all the angles, and be even-handed in interpreting them.

In addition to his heavy losses at the Alamo, Santa Ana made the further error of dividing his remaining forces unnecessarily before marching to his catastrophic defeat at San Jacinto. I get the impression he was a very overconfident and reckless commander. He must have thought that since he was fighting mere irregulars ("piratas" as he called them), he had no reason to respect their prowess in the field.

Perhaps he got that idea due to previous victories he had scored against rebellious forces in Mexico. At any rate, the "Napoleon of the West" certainly miscalculated.

If he had accepted the surrender of some of the defenders of the Alamo...which might well have happened if he had offered decent terms...he would also not have aroused such a violently vengeful reaction in the army of the Texicans. And he would have had a few bargaining chips for negotiation.

Again, Santa Ana seems not to have been interested in negotiating with "piratas"... He set the stage perfectly for his own comeuppance.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:48 PM

over in Texa visiting Austin and the Alamo

Tell him he'll have better luck finding the Alamo if he goes to San Antonio to look for it.

The Handbook of Texas Online (best source overall online) and the entry on Alamo. (San Antonio de Valero Mission)

Wikipedia

SRS

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Phil Garringer
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:11 PM

I would urge anyone who has a chance to visit the Alamo. I have been there about a dozen times.

There is something about fighting a desperate and futile fight against impossible odds that ensures your place in history and mythology. Just ask John Brown or Padraic Pearse.

The list of the Alamo defenders...

Abamillo, Juan (Texas)

Allen, Robert (Virginia)

Andross, Miles DeForrest (Vermont)

Autry, Micajah (North Carolina)

Badillo, Juan A. (Texas)

Bailey, Peter James III (Kentucky)

Baker, Isaac G. (Arkansas)

Baker, William Charles M. (Missouri)

Ballentine, John J. (Pennsylvania)

Ballantine, Richard W. (Scotland)

Baugh, John J. (Virginia)

Bayliss, Joseph (Tennessee)

Blair, John (Tennessee)

Blair, Samuel (Tennessee)

Blazeby, William (England)

Bonham, James Butler (South Carolina)

Bourne, Daniel (England)

Bowie, James (Kentucky)

Bowman, Jesse B. (Tennessee)

Brown, George (England)

Brown, James (Pennsylvania)

Brown, Robert (Unknown)

Buchanan, James (Alabama)

Burns, Samuel E. (Ireland)

Butler, George, D. (Missouri)

Cain, John (Pennsylvania)

Campbell, Robert (Tennessee)

Carey, William R. (Virginia)

Clark, Charles Henry (Missouri)

Clark, M.B. (Mississippi)

Cloud, Daniel William (Kentucky)

Cochran, Robert E. (New Hampshire)

Cottle, George Washington (Missouri)

Courtman, Henry (Germany)

Crawford, Lemuel (South Carolina)

Crockett, David (Tennessee)

Crossman, Robert (Pennsylvania)

Cummings, David P. (Pennsylvania)

Cunningham, Robert (New York)

Darst, Jacob C. (Kentucky)

Davis, John (Kentucky)

Day, Freeman H.K. (Unknown)

Day, Jerry C. (Missouri)

Daymon, Squire (Tennessee)

Dearduff, William (Tennessee)

Dennison, Stephen (England or Ireland)

Despallier, Charles (Louisiana)

Dewall, Lewis (New York)

Dickinson, Almeron (Tennessee)

Dillard, John Henry (Tennessee)

Dimpkins, James R. (England)

Duvalt, Andrew (Ireland)

Espalier, Carlos (Texas)

Esparza, Gregorio (Texas)

Evans, Robert (Ireland)

Evans, Samuel B. (New York)

Ewing, James L. (Tennessee)

Faunterloy, William Keener (Kentucky)

Fishbaugh, William (Unknown)

Flanders, John (Massachusetts)

Floyd, Dolphin Ward (North Carolina)

Forsyth, John Hubbard (New York)

Fuentes, Antonio (Texas)

Fuqua, Galba (Alabama)

Garnett, William (Virginia)

Garrand, James W. (Louisiana)

Garrett, James Girard (Tennessee)

Garvin, John E. (Unknown)

Gaston, John E. (Kentucky)

George, James (Unknown)

Goodrich, John C. (Virginia)

Grimes, Albert Calvin (Georgia)

Guerrero, José María (Texas)

Gwynne, James C. (England)

Hannum, James (Pennsylvania)

Harris, John (Kentucky)

Harrison, Andrew Jackson (Tennessee)

Harrison, William B (Ohio)

Hawkins, Joseph M. (Ireland)

Hays, John M. (Tennessee)

Heiskell, Charles M. (Tennessee)

Herndon, Patrick Henry (Virginia)

Hersee, William Daniel (England)

Holland, Tapley (Ohio)

Holloway, Samuel (Pennsylvania)

Howell, William D. (Massachusetts)

Jackson, Thomas (Ireland)

Jackson, William Daniel (Kentucky)

Jameson, Green B. (Kentucky)

Jennings, Gordon C. (Pennsylvania)

Jimenes (Ximenes), Damacio (Texas)

Johnson, Lewis (Wales)

Johnson, William (Pennsylvania)

Jones, John (New York)

Kellog, John Benjamin (Kentucky)

Kenney, James (Virginia)

Kent, Andrew (Kentucky)

Kerr, Joseph (Louisiana)

Kimbell, George C. (Pennsylvania)

King, William Philip (Texas)

Lewis, William Irvine (Virginia)

Lightfoot, William J. (Virginia)

Lindley, Jonathan L. (Illinois)

Linn, William (Massachusetts)

Losoya, Toribio (Texas)

Main, George Washington (Unknown)

Malone, William T. (Georgia)

Marshall, William (Tennessee)

Martin, Albert (Rhode Island)

McCafferty, Edward (Unknown)

McCoy, Jesse (Tennessee)

McDowell, William (Pennsylvania)

McGee, James (Ireland)

McGregor, John (Scotland)

McKinney, Robert (Tennessee)

Melton, Eliel (Georgia)

Miller, Thomas R. (Tennessee)

Mills, William (Tennessee)

Millsaps, Isaac (Mississippi)

Mitchell, Edwin T. (Unknown)

Mitchell, Napoleon B. (Unknown)

Mitchusson, Edward F. (Virginia)

Moore, Robert B. (Virginia)

Moore, Willis A. (Mississippi)

Musselman, Robert (Ohio)

Nava, Andrés (Texas)

Neggan, George (South Carolina)

Nelson, Andrew M. (Tennessee)

Nelson, Edward (South Carolina)

Nelson, George (South Carolina)

Northcross, James (Virginia)

Nowlan, James (England)

Pagan, George (Unknown)

Parker, Christopher Adam (Unknown)

Parks, William (North Carolina)

Perry, Richardson (Texas)

Pollard, Amos (Massachusetts)

Reynolds, John Purdy (Pennsylvania)

Roberts, Thomas H. (Unknown)

Robertson, James Waters (Tennessee)

Robinson, Isaac (Scotland)

Rose, James M. (Ohio)

Rusk, Jackson J. (Ireland)

Rutherford, Joseph (Kentucky)

Ryan, Isaac (Louisiana)

Scurlock, Mial (North Carolina)

Sewell, Marcus L. (England)

Shied, Manson (Georgia)

Simmons, Cleveland Kinlock (South Carolina)

Smith, Andrew H. (Unknown)

Smith, Charles S. (Maryland)

Smith, Joshua G. (North Carolina)

Smith, William H. (Unknown)

Starr, Richard (England)

Stewart, James E. (England)

Stockton, Richard L. (New Jersey)

Summerlin, A. Spain (Tennessee)

Summers, William E. (Tennessee)

Sutherland, William DePriest (Unknown)

Taylor, Edward (Tennessee)

Taylor, George (Tennessee)

Taylor, James (Tennessee)

Taylor, William (Tennessee)

Thomas, B. Archer M. (Kentucky)

Thomas, Henry (Germany)

Thompson, Jesse G. (Arkansas)

Thomson, John W. (North Carolina)

Thruston, John, M. (Pennsylvania)

Trammel, Burke (Ireland)

Travis, William Barret (South Carolina)

Tumlinson, George W. (Missouri)

Tylee, James (New York)

Walker, Asa (Tennessee)

Walker, Jacob (Tennessee)

Ward, William B. (Ireland)

Warnell, Henry (Unknown)

Washington, Joseph G. (Kentucky)

Waters, Thomas (England)

Wells, William (Georgia)

White, Isaac (Alabama or Kentucky)

White, Robert (Unknown)

Williamson, Hiram James (Pennsylvania)

Wills, William (Unknown)

Wilson, David L. (Scotland)

Wilson, John (Pennsylvania)

Wolf, Anthony (Unknown)

Wright, Claiborne (North Carolina)

Zanco, Charles (Denmark)

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 10:08 AM

That fellow Rose who declined to die for Texas, was that the origin of the song THE YELLOW ROSE OF TEXAS?

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:22 AM

Uncle Phil - Thanks for that outline. Very informative!

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 03:41 AM

i was watching a film about the life of Christ, and John Wayne was in it, I was looking for his horse and saying 'get off your horse and drink your milk'

and then a few cowboys and idians to turn up

no wonder you lot won at the almo John Wayne was there to help you.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 03:25 AM

Here are a few random thoughts after reading both threads.

The siege of the Alamo gave Houston time he needed to put together an army and gutted the Mexican army. Its meaning and importance can be read on any map of North America. Or, for that matter, what would a map of Europe look if the US had remained a small nation unable to join the allies in WWI or WWII ? What would a map of the Orient look like if the US had not become a Pacific nation and able to oppose the Japanese in WWII? I don't know either, but it's interesting to speculate.

The Texas revolution did not begin as a war for independence. The Texicans thought themselves to be loyal Mexicans fighting to restore the Mexican constitution of 1824. The tyrant Santa Anna did not take command of the Mexican Army in response to a Texican declaration of independence. Texas did not declare independence until March 2, 1836, four days before the Alamo fell at the end of Santa Anna's 13 day siege. It's very unlikely that any of the Texicans at the Alamo ever knew that Texas had declared its independence.

An opinion -- the line in the sand is a good story, but it just doesn't sound like Travis. Consider his own words; "Colonel Neill and myself have come to the solemn resolution that we will rather die in these ditches than give them up." "If my countrymen do not rally to my relief, I am determined to perish in the defense of this place, and my bones shall reproach my country for her neglect.", "… I am determined to sustain myself as long as possible and die like a soldier who never forgets what is due his honor and that of his country. Victory or Death". Can you picture him offering his men the opportunity to slink off into the night?

The Texicans were fighting to maintain slavery? Well, the planter class certainly had slaves and I'll bet they wanted to keep them. However I've never read anything from those days that even suggests that slavery was a major issue. For example, Eyewitness to the Alamo is a collection of the known writings of letters, orders, notices, etc from eyewitnesses to the battle. The word slavery doesn't even appear in the index. (Bill Groneman, Eyewitness to the Alamo, ISBN:1-55622-502-4). Nor does the word slavery appear in the index of Wallace O. Chariton, 100 Days in Texas, ISBN:1-55622-131-2, a collection of similar writings, all from the period from 9 December 1835 to 17 March 1836.

Body slavery was illegal in Mexico. That's not the whole story. Peonage, land slavery, provided the labor necessary for the encomiendas basic to much of the economy in Spanish colonies such as Mexico. Peonage continued after Mexico declared its independence in 1821. Peonage lasted in Hispanic America long after slavery ended in the United States. Try Googling peonage or encomiendas.

The transAppalachian pioneers were not serfs or peasants. They were generally literate -- at least enough to read newspapers and scripture, and they kept up with current events well enough to govern themselves. Community schools were the norm. Read any good biography of Sam Houston to learn how the community schools worked. (Marshall De Bruhl, Sword of San Jacinto: A Life of Sam Houston, ISBN: 0-679-75302-8) Not all the defenders were frontiersmen; many were professional men – lawyers, doctors, tradesmen, storekeepers. (T.R. Fehrenbach, Lonestar: A History of Texas and Texans, ISBN:0-517-06490-1). If you are reading a history book and the author starts talking about illiterate American pioneers you can bet he doesn't know much about history.

The Texicans stole Texas from the Mexicans who lived there? The problem is that neither Spain nor Mexico ever successfully settled Texas. There are a couple reasons. First there were not enough peaceful Indians to reduce to peonage and, therefore, no way to establish encomiedas that their economy required. Second, Spanish military based in Presidios couldn't protect the Hispanic population from aggressive, highly mobile Indians. The Mexican frontier was in retreat. For example, the Alamo itself was abandoned as a Mission in the 1790's.

What could the Spanish and Mexicans do? Invite land-hungry Anglos in to provide a buffer between the Hispanic settlers and the hostile Indians. It didn't work. Anglos, notably Austin and later Houston made friends with the Indians, who simply bypassed the Anglos and continued to raid the Mexicans as they always had. (Sadly good relations between the Anglo settlers and Indians did not continue as we all know.) . Put another way, if the Spanish/Mexicans had ever settled Texas then the Anglos would never have been invited to settle there.

Ok, but why are there so many really good Mexican Restaurants in San Antonio if Mexicans never settled Texas? OK, I lied. There has been a large-scale, successful Hispanic settlement of Texas, but it didn't begin until 1911 when large numbers of folks fled to Texas from a civil war in Mexico. As hard as it is to believe today, there were more German/Americans than Mexican/Americans in San Antonio in 1900(Fehernbach, Lonestar). A good related article is: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/mexican_voices/voices_display.cfm?id=90

Comparing the histories of Mexico and the United States is interesting. At the time of the American Revolution Mexico was the larger, richer, probably more populous country, and had been settled for hundreds of years. But, by the 1890's the US was equivalent to Mexico in population and growing rapidly. By the 1830's the US was probably had more than double Mexico's population and was still rapidly growing.

Spain and then Mexico worried a great deal about a rapidly expanding US threatening their northern frontier. The Spanish even considered setting up a French or English colony in Texas as a buffer between the US and Mexico. The US had offered to purchase Texas from Mexico twice, but finally agreed by stay out of Texas (Google the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo). There is no historical evidence that the US ever violated the treaty, though Fehrenbach reports Mexican historians have always suspected that the US was behind the Texas revolution. (T.R. Fehrenbach Blood and Fire, ISBN:0-512-476673)

Opinion again -- there's no reason to think that the veteran, combat-hardened Mexican army, armed with muskets and bayonets, couldn't have defeated the regular US Army of the time, also armed with muskets and bayonets. Cinco de Mayo, a holiday in these parts, commemorates a Mexican army victory over the similarly armed French regulars.

Unfortunately for Santa Anna the Texican soldiers were not regulars. They were irregulars, mostly raised on the frontier to use firearms with, to the Mexicans, unimaginable efficiency and accuracy. The Texican long rifles were accurate out to 250-300 yards compared to, maybe, 100 yards for the Mexican muskets. The result was the Santa Anna's army took more casualties than it could sustain and was eventually defeated at San Jacinto.

I can't believe I typed the whole thing.

- Phil

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,wowmusic
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 03:17 PM

The Remember the Alamo Concert is being released to theaters July 31 st in Texas and California. Hopefully..going wider

Artists and song list at www.wowmg.com

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 04:32 PM

I have refreshed an older thread, since this thread has degenerated into repetition.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: MARINER
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 04:11 PM

Apparently Moses Rose was a tough , experienced fighter ,he just didn't think the cause he was caught up in was worth dieing for.(Or so some song says.)