BS: Stealing A Nation

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:39 PM

Were the Bikini Islanders a nation?

Are we going to justify our thievery by saying, "Technically, they're not a nation so we can take their land if we want to."

Do we point out that the Bikini Islanders agreed to let the US use their island as a justification for what we did to it and to them? I mean, could they realistically refuse? Could they possibly know that it would be nuked and poisoned for generations to come?

Let's face it: if your skin is a little too brown and/or the eyes a little too slanted, it is perfectly permissible for light-colored people to do whatever they want to you or your land. And, when you point this out, these light-colored folk are the first to scream, "RACIST!!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:41 AM

Pilger one of the worst sort of "investigative" journalist possible. Typical example of the reason I hold their profession in such low esteem - He has his story written before he leaves his home or office. A Reporter is supposed to do just that - Report, factually and impartially.

If any doubt this -

Pilger's title - "To Steal a Nation" - It is both inaccurate and deliberately misleading.

Why no mention of the end date for the agreement to use Diego Garcia as a US Base? - Its Fact - But including that in his article just didn't help the storyline he set out to promote.

Very little of anything this man "reports", would I lend any great credance to.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:23 AM

For years he took Maxwell's shilling.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:09 PM

Isn't this Pilger the guy who was one of the first to produce documentation about US sponsored 'detention & torture' in Iraq?

One could understand why he is hated by some...

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:36 PM

I heard John Pilger speak at the Hay on Wye Festival some three years ago and the giant marquee was packed to capacity ..about a thousand people had crammed into it to hear him talk about the Media and Iraq.
I have to disappoint Guest Crazy Horse and other Pilger bashers and report that the audience came in all ages and he had a standing ovation at the end.
I certainly don't think Pilger does what he is doing for the money ...he could have taken Murdoch's shilling a long time ago and become a wealthy individual...instead its great to see him on our side aiming his pen at the mighty and rapacious and doing a great job!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 12:41 PM

Yeah ... funny how philosophical people can become when it's someone else's property they're talking about ...

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Dickey
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 12:11 PM

Who owns the ground where you are sitting right now?
Your government has eminent domain.

Where did your government get the eminent domain?
It was bought, stolen or seized from someone else or from another government.

Who was the original owner and do they still own it? If you keep digging, you will find layer upon layer of original owners.
Who knows? Adam and Eve? Monkeys? Bugs? Microbes?

Little Hawk has the right idea of ownership of land.

Tell 'em LH

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:59 AM

Rum And Coca Cola


If you ever go down Trinidad
They make you feel so very glad
Calypso sing and make up rhyme
Guarantee you one fine real good time

Drinkin' rum and Coca-Cola
Go down Point Koomahnah
With mother and daughter
Workin' for the Yankee dollar

Beat it Man ... Beat it

A Yankee comes to Trinidad
They got the young girls all goin' mad
Young girls say they treat 'em nice
Make Trinidad like paradise

Drinkin' rum and Coca-Cola
Go down Point Koomahnah
With mother and daughter
Workin' for the Yankee dollar   

From Chicachicaree to Mona's Isle
Native girls all dance and smile
Help soldier celebrate his leave
Make every day like New Year's Eve

Drinkin' rum and Coca-Cola
Go down Point Koomahnah
Both mother and daughter
Workin' for the Yankee dollar

             It's a fact Man ... It's a fact

       Rum and Coca Cola
       Rum and Coca Cola

      Workin' for the Yankee dollar


From Wiki-

"
The Mudcat Cafe, a website devoted to folk musicology, has a forum thread that discusses the song, with postings that include the full lyrics of both the Lord Invader and Morey Amsterdam versions, as well as the lyrics to "L'Année Passée" and some alternative, more ribald lyrics for "Rum and Coca-Cola" that Amsterdam reportedly sang when entertaining troops. ("She wear grass skirt but that's O. K. / Yankee like to hit the hay.")
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rum_and_Coca-Cola"

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:51 AM

Well let's see way back in the early 1940's the Royal Navy was desperately short of destroyers. So the USA, neutral at the time, gave the UK 50 old, obsolete, World War 1 vintage, destroyers in exchange for leased bases around the world, but mostly in the Carribean.

One was in Trinidad at a place that rejoices in the name Chagaramas. Now the US fully developed the place as a base and then low and behold when the lease expired they vacated the place and handed it back to the Trinidadian Government.

Now please tell me why in the case of the Chagos Island of Diego Garcia things should be any different? They are a British possession, not American, the Islanders have already been to law in the UK and it would appear that the legal system is 100% behind them. I dare say that, in general, the population of the UK is totally sympathetic to the Islanders cause - No British Government is going to buck that, the longest they could get away with it would be five years.

Chagos Island agreement expires in 2016, lets see what happens. Have any of the Democratic hopefuls said anything about vacating the islands early, after all they will not need them as a base if they are going to withdraw the troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, so maybe the Islanders will get back as early as 2009.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:39 AM

By and large he (Pilger) is unsympathetic to the view... that American democracy is the last best hope of everybody.

I fail see what in this sentence has led to the reactions of several posters.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:03 AM

So they'll be ceded back "once they are no longer required by the United States". And that'll be in 2036? Maybe that's what a literal reading of the law implies, but I'll believe it when I see it.
For an undoubtedly intelligent person, Teribus seems frighteningly naive about the behaviour of superpowers when law and national interest come up against each other.

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:41 AM

Number of things that Mr. Pilger didn't mention.

The Chagos Islands were privately owned, the British Government bought out the owners of the copra plantations in the early to mid 1960's, so legal title to the islands belongs to the UK Governmernt, the people who lived there at the time did not own any property there.

The title of the threat is "Stealing A Nation" - Mr. Pilger's title to a documentary piece. Well to steal implies to permanently deprive someone of something, which can hardly be the case if there are mutual opt out clauses and an end date as part of the agreement.

"In the medium term the US lease of Diego Garcia is by treaty currently set to expire in 2016, although both Governments have the option of extending the lease for another 20 years if considered necessary.

Beyond this date, it appears from statements made by Mauritius to the United Nations Human Rights Committee that the United Kingdom has undertaken to cede the islands to Mauritius once they are no longer required by the United States.

However, this undertaking appears to have been made on the predication that the islands continue to remain uninhabited; if the Chagossians are able to resume settlement the United Kingdom may decide to treat the islands in accordance with general principles of self-determination, potentially rendering the geopolitical future of the islands in the hands of its displaced people." - Wikipedia

In legal terms, all looks to be set for the Islanders return, I sincerely hope that they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 11:55 PM

Elaborate.......

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 10:45 PM

"American democracy is the last best hope of everybody."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Buddy, I live here, and observe what this country does. What the fuck are you smoking, wld?

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 09:29 PM

""They have protected europe three times in the last hundred years."

Not by themselves."

I got castigated for even hinting that Bobad ...

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:53 PM

Lots of not-well-known stories from history, GUEST Bob.
Google "Kinmel Park Mutiny" sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:23 PM

American democracy, that Grand Experiment, is only 231 years old. Much too soon to quit, and it is my deepest hope it recovers from its bemusing 20th century "future shock" and pulls itself out in good working order.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:21 PM

"They have protected europe three times in the last hundred years."

Not by themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,crazyhorse
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 04:58 PM

But what was that gem above: "American democracy is the last best hope of everybody"?

They have protected europe three times in the last hundred years.

Pilger writes for money. He's written some good stuff and a lot of tripe,always anti-establishment. Most of his readership have student rail cards, which is how it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 04:02 PM

'If they do, they will be ahead of almost any other group who was displaced "for the common good."'

Of course, many of the United Empire Loyalists landed on their feet - with considerable help from Mother Britain ...

More to the point: there's a substantial difference between the idea of righting the wrongs of ancient history and the idea of righting the wrongs of forty years ago. Some of us like to think that we as a society have moved a little beyond the time when it was acceptable to treat indigenous people, or poor people, or foreigners, or - name your group - like animals ... The fact that injustices from bygone days cannot be undone is no excuse for tolerating present injustices.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:53 PM

Gotta love your cynicism Q. "Displaced for the common good?" The act was unfortunately common, but perceived as good? An interesting defence of might is right and the meek may inherit the earth, but they will never take title to it. While you state that you cannot "get excited" over the forced removal of the Chago Islanders, it certainly peaked your interest enough to defend those that were responsible for their illegal removal.

Why get your shirt in a knot because someone steals your car or mugs you and takes your wallet, Q? It happens all the time somewhere in the world, so its OK, right? I'm guessing you might have a different response if somehow it was your ox that was being gored.

Teribus, of what relevance is the expiry date of the agreement? Someone dumps you from your car and then defends the action by saying, "Screw you, I put insurance on it and I'm going to use your vehicle until the insurance runs out." What is difficult about the understanding the concept of theft as an "illegal act"?

One cannot right the wrongs of ancient and past history to any great extent, but one sure as hell, will reap the consequences. All the more reason to make some effort to advocate for the legal and correct thing to be done when it occurs under your watch. Good on the British Courts, I certainly hold them in higher regard than most US courts of late.

Little wonder the actions of some governments of western democracies, holding themselves up as champions of the rule of law and human rights, ring hollow over much of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:28 PM

The Tsu-tina are welcome to put a billboard in my front yard, if they pay enough. I would even help them fight the provincial regulation that prohibits billboards on public rights-of-way, such as streets and roadways.

Amos, allowing business men in Hawai'i to depose the Queen and her constitutional monarchy and pave the way to American sovereignty was hardly moral, but it was done. And billions in trust held by the U. S. government that were used through the years for other purposes were never repaid and never will be.
More equivalent is the case of the Bikini Island natives who were removed from their homes so that their little paradise could be used for experimentation with the atom bomb. No, claiming some rocks because you have the fire power is morally unjustifiable, but it is history and can't be reversed.
Andrew Jackson fought a war with the Mexicans and took the west from them. The Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo can hadly be said to have offered any resonable compensation.

When the Israelis pay proper restitution to the refugee Palestinians, then I might moan (for all of 30 seconds) about such minor cases as a few Chagos Islanders (who, itseems, may receive some compensation, though delayed. If they do, they will be ahead of almost any other group who was displaced "for the common good."

As I said, move or be moved. Such is recorded history.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 01:02 PM

English courts more often get it right than many....

But what was that gem above: "American democracy is the last best hope of everybody"?

Shome mishtake shurely///

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 12:41 PM

"The redskins are going to get revenge for any shortfall with a casino-resort that will scalp the present inhabitants. - Q

If it were white gangsters doing the same thing (as they've done elsewhere) you wouldn't say a word about it. I hope they make enough money to cover the legal fees so that more land claims can be settled. I also hope they put a billboard in your front yard.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 11:08 AM

Well, Q, it may be history, but that does not really change the ethics of the thing. The right to claim some rocks because you had the firepower to force the residents off them is scarcely moral high ground, or even conscionable, given that the islanders were doing no harm to others.

The core equation of the action was along this line: "I would be richer if you were gone; therefore, be gone or I will kill you."

A decent respect for individuals alone would make it clear that this was essentially an unconsciable piece of bullying. Getting away with it is no excuse.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 11:04 AM

Actually John Pilger is Australian and one of the finest journalists to be working and exposing the crimes of the rich and powerful today!He is doing his job and no wonder the powerful hate his guts.Good on yer John!.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 09:43 AM

OK, Dianavon, anyone who has ever moved onto someone else's territory without paying adequate compensation is a thief and should be removed and sent back to wherever. Send them marauding Indians back to Asia and leave the land to the coyotes- but moving forward a few thousand years to the ranchers and resource exploiters, and I think it was Treaty 7 that dealt with the area where I squat. The redskins are going to get revenge for any shortfall with a casino-resort that will scalp the present inhabitants.

Odd that no one has yet named the diasporas that lie at the root of most of the Mideast unrest and rise of terrorism. A few thousand Jewish tribesmen kicked off their land 2000 years ago and leading 60 years ago to the Palestinians who eventually succeeded them being removed to refugee camps or confined to the most non-productive lands in the region.

Such is history. Everybody moves or gets moved.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:43 AM

Also, injustice that happens to any person any where impacts all of us to greater or lesser degrees regardless of where we live or who we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:19 AM

Wrong though it is, at least they still remained within their own country, and among people who spoke the same language.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:19 AM

What John 'Giok' MacKenzie said in his 24 Jul 07 - 04:39 AM post.

But I also think that things like this happen because for some power, greed, and self-interest trump consideration and concern, and rule by law for other people-regardless of whether those people belong to the same race, ethnicity, or religion or belong to a different race, ethnicity, or religion.

But then again, those with power write the laws & inteprete the law to suit themselves, and disregard the law when it doesn't suit their purpose to retain power and gain more power, and retain and gain more wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 07:17 AM

If you visit Chatsworth House in Derbyshire, where Pride and Predjudice was filmed and Mr Darcy lived - that is the ancestral home of the Dukes of Devonshire, ever since he decided that he wanted a palace there. There was a village there, but the villagers were all 'relocated'.

The story has many precedents. At least nowadays there seems to be some sort of legal framework to dispute the right of the rich and powerful, or plain malicious.

Pilger is a talented writer. Sometimes he gets it right, sometimes not. By and large he is unsympathetic to the view, or pretends to be unaware that America is constantly engaged in military struggle to maintain its position of pre-eminence in the world, and that American democracy is the last best hope of everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:44 AM

Hear hear, Giok. However; something encouraging here is that at least in the UK the checks and balances between the executive and the judiciary seem to be in working order, if very slow. Not sure the same is currently true across the pond though. When i first saw the thread title, I though it was another one about Shrub and his cronies.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 04:39 AM

If those people were not native to that island after many generations, where does that leave the US, the majority of who's inhabitants are more recent than some of those from the Chagos Islands?
It is pure semantics bringing origin of a people into an argument as an excuse for treating them like shit. It's racism when it's done like that, pure and simple racism.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 03:38 AM

This thread is taking an interesting turn; one of the many post-imperialist injustices is being opened up to scrutiny. The difficulty for me is the messenger. John Pilger has made a name for himself as a breaker of news about scandals of one sort or another, and along the way has done some good things; but he has also made some monumental mistakes, and hurt some innocent people in the process.

Seems to me that most journalists, even John Pilger, are not motivated by the search for truth, but for a good story. My Mum used to tell me stories when I was little, and she's a good woman, but I don't think all of them were true...
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 01:31 AM

Then no doubt Mr Pilger explained that in 2016 the "Chagos Islands" agreement will probably expire, on the the part of either of the two parties involved. Failing that if expires for certain in 2036 (IIRC - This was all set out in another thread that covered this topic).

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 01:23 AM

Removal of people from their land has happened many times in history. That does not make it right. We should know that by now.

Where is your homeland, Q? I think you mentioned Canada. If that is so, I suppose you have the opinion that you entitled to take whatever you want from the rightful owners of the land, regardless of whether or not there has been a treaty or compensation paid to the original inhabitants. What makes you think you are so special?

In fact, if you provide your address, I can tell you exactly who owns the land you think is yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 11:53 PM

Hear, hear, Metchosin.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 11:50 PM

Remember this was ca 1967 not 1767:

In a memo dating from this period, Colonial Office head Denis Greenhill (later Lord Greenhill of Harrow) wrote to the British Delegation at the UN:

"The object of the exercise is to get some rocks which will remain ours; there will be no indigenous population except seagulls who have not yet got a committee. Unfortunately, along with the seagulls go some few Tarzans and Man Fridays who are hopefully being wished on Mauritius."

How many hundreds of years does one have to live on the land to be considered a culture of long standing? The answer is Blowing in the Wind.....

I agree with the British High court, this is repugnant. In fact, IMO, this is beyond repugnant.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 11:48 PM

The same removal of people has happened many times in recent history.
the removal of Muslim from Hindu areas in India at the time of separation was massive. Many died.
The removal of Chinese from the Yangtze basin perhaps nvolves half a million, and similar displacements are occurring in other areas of China.

Of course the famous westward removal of the Cherokee,and of the Navajo from their land are part of American history. The Navajo are one of the few groups who were able to return to their central homeland.

I cannot get excited about the Chagos Islanders. And to us, the removal of the Bikini Islanders and the atomic explosion carried out there as a 'scientific' test should receive more attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 10:40 PM

Q, please remember they had established communities on the island for multiple generations and had come to consider it their home. It was not just leant to them. To then remove them by force and transplant them somewhere they had bnever been is the equivalent of treating them as slaves.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 10:20 PM

"Hey is this ass pdq for real ?"

1) He is a very sharp individual (as in intelligent).

2) He's a good guy, and he's real.

3) His views differ from many on Mudcat, but that's just because he's misguided.

4) I think of him as a friend, and I hope he thinks the same way back, despite that we differ about 180 degrees politically.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 10:05 PM

Compensation for losses of home and employment seems to be called for- seemingly the British government removed them without providing proper restitution. Comparison could be made with the Islanders removed from Bikini Atoll, but the latter were part of a culture of long standing.
Since the people on Chagos were not native to the islands, the position of the British government is understandable, if not humane.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 09:55 PM

Fine, Q, but a 'liberal arts" college is welcome to offer courses in science, animal husbandry or under-water basket weaving. That does not make those subjects 'liberal arts'. Nice try, though.

Also, all of the journalism majors I have known went into journalism as a profession. History and philosophy are also 'liberal arts'. Claiming that "increasing reason and judgement" are part of liberal arts is downright comical. Almost are weird as claiming the politics is a vehicle intended to promote 'truth'.

B-Dubs: I believe that 'facts' are a sub-set of 'truth', but it is too late to elaborate. Nite all.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 09:42 PM

Truth is relative, unless it is demonstrable in the laboratory.

Pdq is ignorant of the meaning of "liberal arts." Take Dartmouth or Oberlin as typical of a liberal arts college-
Academic programs at Dartmouth are divided into four divisions: the humanities, the sciences, the social sciences, and interdisciplinary programs.
Sciences are an integral part of the liberal arts. Defining the liberal arts more closely, programs would include language, philosophy, history, literature and abstract science (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary). The purpose is to develop the intellectual capacities (as reason and judgement) as opposed to professional or vocational skills. Journalism is one of the professional skills, as, e. g., mechanical engineering. Unfortunately many so-called journalists, outside of those on the better newspapers, have never received any training in the discipline.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 09:23 PM

Now, now, Russ - as one GUEST to another, we are trying to keep this civil -

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 09:22 PM

There's a difference between truth and fact. Facts can be measured empirically. Truth cannot. Facts tell us what happened, but not why. The facts as outlined in Peace's post above tell us what happened. What we don't know is why the particular course of action was taken or what justifications were used. To get to "why" one must look at human motivations which is something no empirical data collector is going to be able to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 09:21 PM

Guest,Russ: blow it out you ass, fool

And have the balls to sign up so someone send you a PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 09:19 PM

Hey is this ass pdq for real ?

Man face facts, John is a really sound guy who knows what he is talking about, more than can be said for you.


So your saying you fully support what they did on these poor people ? I bet you think the Palestinians need their ass kicked too ?

Ever considered changing your name to pms ?

Buddy, seek help soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 09:08 PM

PDQ:

If you haven't heard the PBS interviews with those who were displaced by the manipulations of the British government at the time, for commercial reasons, you might want to do so before you accuse Pilger of trying to "destroy" Britan, which is a highly exagerrated claim. The British destroyed an existing community with many generations of life in a homeland.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Stealing A Nation
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 08:52 PM

Obviously, the corollary is also true: "'propaganda' looks like the 'truth' to a true believer".

That's why we need more science majors (who look for truth') and fewer liberal arts majors. Journalism seems to attract people who believe that 'truth is relative'.