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Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge

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GUEST,Captain Swing 30 Jul 07 - 06:46 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 Jul 07 - 09:38 AM
Big Al Whittle 30 Jul 07 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,PMB 30 Jul 07 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 30 Jul 07 - 07:01 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Jul 07 - 10:58 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 29 Jul 07 - 09:19 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 07 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 29 Jul 07 - 07:03 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Jul 07 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 29 Jul 07 - 05:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Jul 07 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 29 Jul 07 - 04:21 PM
The Villan 29 Jul 07 - 11:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Jul 07 - 10:23 AM
TheSnail 29 Jul 07 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 28 Jul 07 - 12:00 PM
Baggins 360 28 Jul 07 - 11:59 AM
The Sandman 28 Jul 07 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 28 Jul 07 - 08:27 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 28 Jul 07 - 08:10 AM
TheSnail 28 Jul 07 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 28 Jul 07 - 06:39 AM
TheSnail 27 Jul 07 - 09:30 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 27 Jul 07 - 08:16 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 07 - 08:09 PM
TheSnail 27 Jul 07 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 27 Jul 07 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,PMB 27 Jul 07 - 11:56 AM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 27 Jul 07 - 11:46 AM
The Villan 27 Jul 07 - 07:42 AM
Bernard 27 Jul 07 - 07:34 AM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 27 Jul 07 - 04:08 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 27 Jul 07 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 26 Jul 07 - 08:19 PM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 26 Jul 07 - 04:13 PM
GUEST 26 Jul 07 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,Crazy Man Michael 26 Jul 07 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 26 Jul 07 - 03:07 PM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 26 Jul 07 - 08:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jul 07 - 08:37 AM
Dave Sutherland 26 Jul 07 - 08:15 AM
KeithofChester 26 Jul 07 - 07:54 AM
Bernard 26 Jul 07 - 07:25 AM
Leadfingers 26 Jul 07 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,PMB 26 Jul 07 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,sparticus 26 Jul 07 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,wordy 26 Jul 07 - 06:11 AM
GUEST,PMB 26 Jul 07 - 06:01 AM
The Borchester Echo 26 Jul 07 - 05:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 06:46 PM

weelittledrummer
While I disagree with what you say on this particular subject, I think we have a lot in common otherwise. I gave up organising in 1995 because the club had lost its political bite. It became a friendly ( read twee) night out with very little challenge and too many sentimental love songs. I found myself an outsider in my own club!

PMB
I think you are right, the starting point for argument is the extent of abortion. A return to the backstreet scenario would be dreadful.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 09:38 AM

On the other thing of it damaging his career. i don't suppose, he gives a stuff nowadays - what's one festival out of so many, and with so much adulation as there is for him on the folk scene - he must count his career a great success.

I think maybe 30 years ago - what damage could be done, was done. In those days his wonderful onstage manner seemed to have put his feet firmly on the ladder that had taken Connolly, Harding and Carrot onto 'greater things' - as they say.

i think graham parker with his song Squeezing Out Sparks on the same subject, did much worse out of the deal. theres no such thing as being a moderate success as a recording artist - you're either a name that shift units or you not, and that song did for him.

You have to see it in the context of its times. the whole progressive movement was under attack, Thatcher was waiting in the wings (and making overtures to the BNP voters), gits like Cox and dyson and Kingsley Amis were bringing out The Education Black Paper.

Artists like Vin and Parker were to some extent biting the hand that fed them.

That neocon anti liberal thing is still very much in power and still has America by the balls. I still don't feel safe from it.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 08:12 AM

I suppose you're right Captain. I do have this problem of being self righteous - on account of me always being right.

I'm probably the last person who should be airing my views on this subject - apart from Vin Garbutt. He's last; I'm second to last.

As for it not being a bandwagon - I wouldn't be so sure. lotta catholics out there - it hasn't done the Pope any harm. Some of them DO see English society as hopelessly lacking in spiritual values, and they feel isolated.

Personally I always see that as an unfair assessment of a country where we have tried to imbue many of our social services with a spirit that comes straight from the sermon on the mount.

I do think when we say - this sort of thing doesn't matter. we are betraying some spirit of liberalism that runs deep in our folkmusic revival. In a recent interview (can't lay my hands on it, but its in the Guitarist magazine book of interviews with acoustic guitarists) Carthy described his feelings when a Cambridge crowd boo-ed a young duo who had written an anti war song about the Falklands soon after the conflict. Carthy said that he and Norma just realised that the wheel had turned full cycle and the whole folk movement was now totally depoliticised.

I think I felt something similar thirty years or so ago when Vin came up with this song. Its not a barricade I want to be behind, and I won't fight for his right to say what he's saying in this case.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 07:27 AM

Can I just point out that those who are opposed to abortion unconditionally, under all circumstances, are holding views as extreme and unpleasant as anything promoted by the BNP. When a pregnant woman's life is in danger, you do not have the right to insist on her death. To insist that a raped woman carry the child to term is inhuman. The argument is therefore only over the extent of abortion, and it is debatable whether legalisation has actually increased the number of abortions to any great extent. They always happened, but were performed by untrained practitioners often in unhygenic circumstances.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 07:01 AM

weelittledrummer,

You are certainly allowed to feel moral repugnance at Vin's point of view on this issue.

I can't agree with you on the bandwagon issue. If I was going to jump on a bandwagon I'd find one that increased my popularity, not lessened it. I shouldn't think this has done Vin any favours professionally.

There are, and have been, extreme elements in many areas of political and social argument: Apartheid, Northern Ireland, The Middle East, Animal Welfare, Welsh Nationalism. Yes, there are some mad, dangerous bastards around. These people poison the debate and turn it into a war by using violence and intimidation to try to achieve their aims. But the existence of these nut cases who is not a reason to prevent someone from using their art to make a peaceful point on the issue.

If Vin were singing songs in protest at animal experimentation, would you be linking him with the idiots who attack research centres and threaten the families of the workers?

"only spiritual insight confers that sort of moral certainty"

You sound pretty certain of the morality of this issue - do you have some spiritual insight?


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 10:58 PM

Captain - we understand that you're a Vin fan. No one is denying - he is a good whistle player. he has an onstage personality that has made him an idol to thousands.

However we are allowed to feel moral repugnance at his point of view on this issue.

It certainly a bandwagon because it will assure him of a certain constiuency. I'm not saying he needs it - but its certainly there.

" How do you know that Vin wants to disempower vulnerable women that want abortions?"

Because that will be the consequences of people joining one of the many pressure groups that espouse his point of view and mounting a successful campaign - as the 'moral majority' types alrewady have in the States.

how do I know its not human rights that motivates him. perhaps because of the mad bastard gleam in the eye of adherents of this point of view. Bush himself, and that bugger on death row for putting bombs under the cars of doctors.

only spiritual insight confers that sort of moral certainty.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 09:19 PM

Steve,
Two questions to start with: -

1. How do you know that Vin wants to disempower vulnerable women that want abortions?

2. A bandwagon is usually an already popular platform that someone joins to further their own ends. In what way is this a bandwagon for Vin?


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:51 PM

The argument about other folk singers raising controversial issues, therefore it's all right for Vin to do it as well, is fallacious. Generally, folk singers have sung about and written about repressed minorities and given them some kind of voice, no matter how small. Vin Garbutt is patently not doing this by singing tendentious and emotion-laden songs about his opposition to abortion. First, he is jumping on a bandwagon. Second, his songs militate against a repressed minority. They seek to disempower still further those vulnerable women who need to have abortions and who already, in many cases, find it difficult to get what they need. Yes, need. I cannot respect him for that. It is not the same thing. He is misguided, and I would seek an assurance from him that he would leave out the anti-abortion propaganda before booking him.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:03 PM

In the mid 80's I (like many people in those Thatcherite times) became much more political. From an apolitical (some would say apathetic) standpoint, my views were polarized towards the left. This happened not because I had listened to the speeches of Scargill, Kinnock or even Tony Benn (who is now a hero); but because I'd listened to songs, stories and points of view at folk clubs. Some of those points of view I didn't agree with initially, but changed my mind after consideration. Some I still don't agree with and some are still up for discussion. For me, the key words are "listen", "respect", "discuss","differ", "consider". We need to keep listening and talking - rather the soapbox than the semtex!


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:40 PM

Fair enough Captain, I just differ on this point - as on so many other points.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:36 PM

You could say the same about political zealots. Also, why assume that an anti-abortion stance comes from a religious stand point? I see it as a human rights issue more than anything.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 04:52 PM

well no. suppose the other singer is not as good and he influences someone to take up a viewpoint that leads to her suicide or causes some really awful problem.

its a bit like smoking. when people used to say I was being socially irresponsible and a bloody nuisance. i didn't like it, but eventually it got through.


just cos he fell into the hands of religious zealots at an early age - thats his misfortune. I have a close friendship with a catholic friend, I went through all the trauma of seeing an intelligent man screw up his family life because the RC church has weird ideas about birth control.. just because people don't have the strength of character to eschew chocolate box religious values that we pick up at an age when we think heaven is up, and hell is down - that is no reason to grant this man a platform.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 04:21 PM

They should book Vin - he is good performer making a perfectly legal statement. They could also book another performer who might put the opposite point.

Publish and be damned!


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Villan
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 11:14 AM

Yes, maybe they should run the festival themselves, then we would see who they upset!!!


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 10:23 AM

One thing I certainly wouldn't do as a club and festival organiser is bow to political pressure to book or not book an act I wanted to see or felt that my audience wanted to see. I think the people who run the Cambridge festival are now in an impossible possition. If they book Vin they are castigated by the pro abortion lobby and if they don't they are a set of policaly correct pinkos. What can they do? Would any of you lot who are trying to bully them one way or another like to give us the solution?

Dave.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:49 AM

GUEST,Captain Swing

Now, as a former promoter myself, I wouldn't touch this guy with a barge pole, even if only to protect myself from being implicated in a charge of encitement of racial hatred.

So you would have been making a decision based on the content of his performance. Personally I wouldn't have been concerned about the prosecution, I just wouldn't want the £%*&^"~! in my club. I think I'm entitled to make that choice.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 12:00 PM

Good point Dick. Your point of view is eminently balanced and tolerant.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Baggins 360
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 11:59 AM

Every Vin Garbutt I've been to, and I've been to a lot, was a sell out, big gig, little gig, all sell outs. Most Folk clubs in this Country would book him in a minute. As indeed would most Folk Festivals. So what's different about Cammbridge? Are the rest of the Festivals "Right Wing" events, because they are booking this "power crazy man" who wants to keep "women Subjugated" or, are they simply doing what Folk Clubs and Festivals have done for the last twenty odd years, booking a man who is immensely popular with the regular Folk Club going people? I've been to Cambridge three times and each time I came away with the increasing impression, that here was a Festival that was so far up it's own a*** it had stopped being a folk festival. Whilst we are on the subject of offensive lyrics some of the vitriol against men poured out in the songs of some of our more "right on" sisters at the CFF I attended was obscene never mind offensive. I wonder If these are the same people who are now trying their level best to make the word 'Traditional' equate with to the word Fascist?


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 11:07 AM

CAPTAIN SWING,Folk music is there for a lot of reasons,it is not there just for promoting political discussion,although political discussion is one valid face of it.
organisers /promoters should not be pressurised into booking a performer.
Vin Garbutt appears to be a popular performer,who doesnt appear to be short of work,his fans get plenty of oppurtunity to see him, so whats all this fuss about,a veritable storm in a teacup.
I respect Vin as a performer.I also respect his right to air his views.
I am in favour of abortion under certain circumstances,and am prepared to tolerate one or two anti abortion songs in his set,but that doesnt mean I have to applaud them either,.
Of course this is all great publicity for Vin.,Who is avery good entertainer,and a charming person.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 08:27 AM

No Snail, I don't think the promoter should act, as I said, as a self appointed arbiter of correctness.

Here are some quotes from Lee Haggan's songs:
"We fight 'gainst Marx and Capital, the cruel and alien creeds,?
For a British Revolution to set our people free"


?"We're made to pay for being swamped by bogus refugees"


"You've heard about the Yardies, drugs and guns from overseas?
You've heard about the Triads and all their pimps and all their thieves?
But there's another menace, from far away it came?
You know exctly who I mean and why they can't be named"

"A shower of foreign traitors who want to take our land?
And if you want to stop them you must come and lend a hand"

"This menace it was brought here to work in shops and mills?
But as well as lower wages they've brought us other ills"

"Now the shop signs are all strange
And the very air they breathe has changed
The dark faces on the curb?
The looks they give they threaten and disturb?
For they think this town is their own"

Now, as a former promoter myself, I wouldn't touch this guy with a barge pole, even if only to protect myself from being implicated in a charge of encitement of racial hatred.

Re: Bonnie's point - Every time I have booked Vin, I've made money. Every time I've been to one of his gigs elsewhere it has been packed.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 08:10 AM

The promoter also has to act out of financial considerations for his club or event.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 07:37 AM

So, somewhere along the way, the promoter does have to "act as a self appointed arbiter of correctness."


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 06:39 AM

You are right Snail - Vin certainly is a more complex question.

The BNP, whether legal or not, has a well established and extremely narrow agenda which is born out of racism.

Vin's agenda is extremely broad and well considered. Politically, most of his work sits easily with the likes of Pete Seeger, Bob Dylan, Roy Bailey, June Tabor, ,Jez Lowe etc. He makes a point on one issue that runs against the tide. It should be clear from his wider agenda that bigotry and oppression are not part of his vocabulary. Because of his wider credentials, he should be listened to in order to promote debate.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 09:30 PM

The BNP is a legal organisation and I'm sure the bloke is adept at keeping his act within the law but I still wouldn't want him in the club.

Vin is a more complex question.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 08:16 PM

That last comment was from me - must sort out my cookies.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 08:09 PM

It is illegal to promote racism and violence. You would be completely right in not booking a BNP supporting singer. Vin's work widens the debate on human rights. This is not illegal.
    Please remember to put a consistent poster name in the "from" box when you post a message. Anonymous messages risk deletion.
    Thanks.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:57 PM

It is not reasonable, and is patronisinng in the extreme, for a promoter to act as a self appointed arbiter of correctness.

So are you telling me that, as a folk club organiser, I have no right to choose not to book the BNP supporting folk singer I gave a link to earlier?


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:37 PM

It's perfectly right and reasonable for audiences to vote with their feet if they don't agree with the ideas a performer is expressing. It is not reasonable, and is patronisinng in the extreme, for a promoter to act as a self appointed arbiter of correctness.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 11:56 AM

Won't one of Vin's fans give us the words? I'd really like to know about his campaign.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 11:46 AM

Not entirely sure what point Capt Swing and Bernard are making. I don't see much opposition here to VG singing about whatever he likes -however honourable or otherwise his motivation may be (and despite fiercely disagreeing with him I'm sure he's absolutely sincere in his beliefs). I do see a lot of people asserting their right not to then have to listen to it, though. And this is their absolute right.

Cheers

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Villan
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:42 AM

Support you there Bernard an Cap'n Swing


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Bernard
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:34 AM

Ridiculing someone's argument is a very weak way of making one's point...

There have been some very unfair comments in this thread by people equating beliefs with perversion using the techinique of gutter press sensationalism to make their 'point'.

Whilst people do become quite obsessive about their beliefs, any right-minded person can see the difference between someone who passionately believes in something for good reasons, and those who wish to indulge their perversions.

Captain Swing has echoed my sentiments very accurately.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 04:08 AM

Tunesmith, I think you may be missing my point. What I was saying, albeit in a tongue-in-cheek way, was that listening to music in a language other than English was a good thing, because when the singer comes out with dodgy views, you are spared them. My record collection is far more multilingual than I could ever be...

Cheers

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 03:17 AM

Nigel, anyone who is happy to hear music sung only in English is missing out on so much! Variety really is the spice of life!


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:19 PM

"Vin has every right to use the music to expand on his personal beliefs"

He does, along with Pete Seeger, Ewan Mcoll, Bob Dylan etc. His job is to aggitate, promote discussion and produce change. What the hell is folk music there for, otherwise?


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:13 PM

QUOTE: 'Nigel, most of the world sing in a language you can't understand!!!'

And for that I am eternally grateful ;-)

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:09 PM

QUOTE: 'Nigel, most of the world sing in a language you can't understand!!!'

And for that I am eternally grateful ;-)

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:39 PM

"As to being liberal, on what do you base that? You don't know if I am liberal/conservative"

and nor do I care...I wasn't refering in the least to you after your initial outburst..so.....


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:07 PM

Nigel, most of the world sing in a language you can't understand!!!


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:40 AM

QUOTE: "To Nigel Spencer, I would try to listen to some of Vin's enormous output prior to judging him on one item."

As a consumer, it's my right to judge a performer on whatever grounds I see fit. Life's too short to do otherwise. I'm sure VG has done some marvellous stuff, but singing an anti-abortion songs doesn't endear him to me and given that there are so many artists out there singing other stuff I do want to hear, I'll pass, thanks... I felt the same about Black Uhuru and their song 'Abortion'. After hearing that I didn't really want to listen to them again. What it comes down to is that for me, anyone promoting a religious or political worldview that annoys me would have to be bloody amazing to get into my record collection or be singing in a language I can't understand or - preferably - both (eg Nusrat Fatah Ali Khan). Wouldn't want to impose this view on others - but then I'm not religious, so I'm not compelled to.

Cheers

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:37 AM

I think the thread has moved away from the original issue but the discussion is still as interesting. Looking at the original posting and link it does look like there has been a big misunderstanding. Whether the festival book him or not is up to them. The reasons for booking or not booking are multitudal without resorting to accusations of either 'side' (in quotes because at the end they are both on the same one!) making political statements.

As to the pro/anti abortion issue. My views are indeed irrelevant as I have never been in that situation. My opinion is that abortion should be a last resort but, if I was in that position, I would try to support my female counterpart, be it partner, daughter, friend or whatever, in whatever choice they made. I would hope that I could offer them a number of valid choices so that they would not feel that a termination is the only answer but, at the end of the day, if they chose that route I would help and support them.

Vin does have much stronger views 'against' from what I understand. I do like Vin's performances very much. I must disagree with Diane on that score - His guitar work and vocals are as good as his whistle playing and he sings with a passion that very few other performers can muster. That is of course my personal taste and I accept it does not co-incide with some other.

A very small portion of his songs however are anti-abortion and, in my opinion, he should be very careful where he sings them. I would hate my theoretical partner, as detailed above, to have just gone through the trauma of an abortion to then be faced with him singing Little Innocents. They will have just gone through a major and soul-searching, irreversible decision and I cannot see how being told that they were wrong would possibly make them feel better about themselves!

If he stuck to singing this controversial work at Life or SPUC rallies - fine. Just as sexist songs should not be given a general airing or the Red Flag should not be sung at the Tory conference these particular horses should indeed stick to their own specialist courses. I am not suggesting censorship or blanket bans. What people get up to in the comapany of like minded individuals is up to them, provided it is legal. All I ask is that people, including Vin, use a bit of common sense in where they introduce material that could be offensive.

Rant off.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:15 AM

To Nigel Spencer, I would try to listen to some of Vin's enormous output prior to judging him on one item. I also share PMB's curiosity since I have known Vin for thirty five years or more and seen him perform countless times over those years(including his first appearance at Cambridge)but I have never heard him sing the fucking song in question.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: KeithofChester
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 07:54 AM

Anyone that doesn't know Vin's work could do worse than watch this.

Inside Out


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 07:25 AM

Ted Edwards, I believe!

;o)


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 07:15 AM

"Quote"

Its because of this 'ere Magana Carter ,

As was signed by the barons of old

That in England today , we can say what we like

As long as we do what we're told !

                                     "End Quote"


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:51 AM

I didn't say that. I said that the ISSUE is one now used by the far right for their own political purposes. There is a debate to be had as to when abortion is appropriate. If that doesn't include the interests of the pregnant woman, who has the foetus actually inside her, it's not a real debate.

And yes, there is a debate about euthanasia, that pivots around the thorny issues of the possibility (probability) of people applying pressure to the old and sick, for their own convenience. And that has to be balanced against the interests of those unrelievably and painfully sick, or others who feel that their quality of life is irrepairably unbearable. It isn't black and white, but there are those who want to make it appear so.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:42 AM

What I can't get my head around is that if it's lawful to sanction abortion because having a child is "inconvenient" at a certain point in a persons' life, why is euthanasia not acceptable when the old become a burden? Or is that in the pipeline? PMB says that campagning for the rights of the unborn child is an issue for the far right. I would contend that it's exactly the opposite. Wasn't it the fascist regimes of the past and those of the present who rid themselves of those who didn't or don't fit into their idea of utopia? I applaud Vin's stance and at the same time sympathise with any woman's decision to abort. Living with that decision must be very hard indeed.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:11 AM

No one's addressed my point. If Vin had written the song from a man's point of view would these criticisms be valid? There's always another side to any issue. I have always supported a woman's right to choose but I can't tell you of the emotional turmoil I went through when I found out my first grandchild had been aborted because the pregnancy was inconvenient at that time. I had to examine my beliefs very carefully when the turmoil eased. The head says yes, the heart says no. As a songwriter myself I decided very quickly that this was not a suitable subject for a song. Why? Because there was too much to say in an art form that is based on being concise. Three or four minutes could never be enough.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:01 AM

It's definitely happened- Vin Garbutt is no longer a folk musician, he's an Issue. And the Issue is Murdering Babies, with no ifs or buts. And since the Paedocaust is a political issue, and one of the extreme right, he will be identified with that part of the political spectrum. I doubt if he meant to be that way, but he can't pick his supporters.

So however it was before this campaign, henceforth anyone booking him will be wise to consider the kind of clientele he will attract.

Note that I'm not saying that all people against abortion are of the extreme right, or that there is no debate to be had. But once it has become an Issue, people take extreme positions. If, as some have already done, you claim that there is no fuzzy margin between life and not- life, that fertilisation creates a human being with all that that entails, you should examine whether you have not already taken an extreme position. Similarly, the argument that a foetus is not a person until birth, that is another extreme.

I suspect that few take either of those positions on careful thought, so the issue becomes one of judgement of grey areas, and the balancing of one person's rights, health and life against another's.

By the way, to allow debaters to make an informed judgement, can anyone post the lyrics to the "offending" songs? As Vin wishes to get a message across, I'm sure he wouldn't quibble about copyright.


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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:42 AM

Yeah, quite.

[100]


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