Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:40 AM

Don't know Vin Garbutt's music - reading this I don't particularly want to. What I do know is that voting with your feet is not the same as censorship and to attempt to characterise those who chose not to pay to hear someone whose views they disagree with as engaging in some form of censorship is both wrong and silly. Censorship is something done from a position of power and authority and is in no way a valid description of a personal act of refusal.

I have no problem with VG singing about what the hell he likes, as long as no-one tells me I have to listen to it, pay for it, like it or not argue back with him and his supporters.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:32 AM

Though clearly entirely unacquainted with the Child Ballads, #68 in particular.
Nor with a song collected by Cecil Sharp in Hambridge in 1904 about the harsh fate which awaited any woman who stepped outside the socially accepted moral code of the day.
We ought by now to have ditched the attitude that women should be so condemned, and should instead applaud and support them for being socially responsible.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Gedpipes
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:19 AM

Andrewq is a wag of the first class type.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:14 AM

Wrong. I'm a countess, not a princess.

And Mr Garbutt, being good at whistling which at least has the advantage of keeping his mouth shut, can perform where he likes (or for whoever books him) and, as June Tabor famously said, 'so long as I don't have to listen to it.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: andrewq
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:06 AM

"Princess" Diane may not be keen on popes but she seems very keen on pontificating. Apparently Vin isn't allowed to be a singer, now, he's got to stick to his whistle to please madam.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:04 AM

...the pope ...who impose their repressive, reactionary dogma on women in order to control them.
'Caps' and 'fitting' come into it.

I'm afraid the Pope is against fitting caps as well as other rubber devices.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 02:37 AM

I've no idea if he is one or not.
As far as I'm concerned he's a whistle player and it would be a Good Thing if he'd stick to doing just that.
The descripion 'power-crazed religious maniacs' applies to those (mainly men) from the pope downwards who impose their repressive, reactionary dogma on women in order to control them.
'Caps' and 'fitting' come into it.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Effsee
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:25 PM

Diane..."power-crazed religious maniacs"...Vin Garbutt? Sheesh!!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM

Would Vin be acceptable to Diane and others if his song was the song ofthe sorrow of a man who's child had been killed by the woman carrying it?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: redsnapper
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM

I have a considerable problem with the fact that any showbiz type, by virtue of the fact that they are a showbiz type, can use the platform they have achieved to pontificate/proselytise about their pet issues, which may have precious little to do with what they do to entertain people

Is not a great deal of folk music exactly about that?

Respectfully,

RS

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: redsnapper
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:49 PM

Big Mick... I was responding to Steve Shaw, not making a general comment about censorship. And Diane, in the end it is an agonising personal decision, not a societal one, and I respect the right of every woman to make that difficult decision.

RS

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:44 PM

Redsnapper:

"Steve Shaw,

I have a considerable problem with the idea that someone cannot express their legitimate (his views are not illegal although very many will not agree with them) views on any platform. That smacks of totalitarianism to me."

I have a considerable problem with the fact that any showbiz type, by virtue of the fact that they are a showbiz type, can use the platform they have achieved to pontificate/proselytise about their pet issues, which may have precious little to do with what they do to entertain people.   You and I cannot do this, not because we have less legitimate views than the showbiz type, but because we do not happen to have access to that platform. Vin's use of his platform to propagate ideas that are utterly opposed to the rights of women is completely inappropriate, and it is he who is being undemocratic by so doing. There is little opportunity for riposte save walking out of his concerts.   It is laughable to suggest that we who rail against such behaviour smack of totalitarianism.   If anything, it's the other way round.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:24 PM

CMM, I understood your comment as you intended it. But it was preposterous and I pointed that out. As to being liberal, on what do you base that? You don't know if I am liberal/conservative/or some mix of the two plus a few others. I certainly have been attacked for my views on gun control in the States as my beliefs are very conservative. I am very much a liberal in many areas, and you have no idea what my views on abortion are, as I have not stated them nor do I intend to. I would suggest that you reread my post on this subject, and you will see that it is pretty pragmatic.

As to Diane's comments, neither of you (Baggins, Michael) are aware, apparently, of the history between Diane and I. We have had mighty disagreements, although I suspect most of our politics/views are similar. Further, when she is right, IMO, she is right. And she presented her views in a respectful but forthright fashion. Not a thing wrong with that either. I suppose she should have thrown a "IMO" in that post somewhere, but the post spoke in general terms about her objection to giving a platform to anyone with illegitimate causes. Of course, there is the rub. Who gets to determine legitimacy when there is controversy with regard to that legitimacy. Many folks, decent folks with a strong sense of morality, object to abortion on the basis of very legitimate concerns. Many other folks, decent folks with passion (like Diane)and a strong sense of morality, object to others trying to take the right of personal choice away from women, and the condemnation of those same women and children to difficult lives with no assistance. I love that progressives on both sides of the question are trying to focus on what they can agree on, which is the limiting of the need through progressive actions and programs. And they seem to be developing a respect for one another.

At any rate, I think you are wrong to focus on Diane's position. It is well stated, well thought out, and I didn't find it combative in the least. I believe that Garbut is entitled completely to his position, admire him for the principled stand. I also understand what is happening with this festival, and think the promoter is well within his rights and is attempting to serve his core audience. We will see what the outcome is.

So, Michael, pay attention to the distinction. It is important. No one is denying Garbut his rights. He has every right to espouse his personal beliefs through his music. I do the same. I play a lot of labor music, but you may rest assured that the Manufacturers/Management groups aren't hiring me to play their events. It's OK. And I would bet that Garbut understood when he took the position, that he probably would lose some gigs.

Mick

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:30 PM

I don't think anybody 'likes' the idea of abortion, with the exception, that is, of fascists bent on the pursuit of eugenics and creating a 'pure' race.

It does, however, completely escape me why it is that power-crazed religious maniacs continue to oppress and intimidate women into producing unwanted children that they can not afford or care for. Clearly it is the woman who must decide whether she is indeed able to undertake this or whether it will destroy her life, that of the unfortunate child, and indeed others who may be dependent, and take steps to remedy the initial mistake.

Whatever bearing Janet Russell's singing has I fail to fathom.

And I'm not 'Diana'.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Baggins 360
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:23 PM

exactly!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:22 PM

Vin Garbutt is a geat performer and I like him for that, regardless of what his political or social views are, and the same can be said for any musician whose performance I choose to attend.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:17 PM

"a woman's right to choose" (or anyone's right to choose their own particular path without fear of being dictated to by someone who disagrees))
there it is exactly...

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Baggins 360
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:09 PM

Vin Garbutt to my mind is a wonderful performer, he has an opinion about Abortion. Apparently though, according to Diana E, because he's not a woman, he has no right to have or express that opinion. I hate the idea of abortion, and Diana, you nor nobody else will change that. Janet Russell sings a beautiful song about a woman's right to choose. I don't agree with all her opinions but I recognise it as a fine song. She also sings one of the most powerful songs I've ever heard about a woman during the Miner's Strike, they probably wouldn't book her at The Grantham Con Club, but what else would you expect from a Con Club. From Cambridge-so-Called-Bloody-Folk Festival I'd expect more!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:07 PM

nor do I subscribe to the somewhat left-wing views being exhibited here

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:06 PM

sorry, dearie...I haven't attended the CFF in a number of years, and I intend in keeping it that way for a good deal longer

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:00 PM

CMM, whether or not you are acquainted with the Ambridge Yellow Pages, it is difficult to utter other than a snork at the preposterous assertion that every view is as legitimate as the next.

[I do believe that the omnibus edition of The Archers is broadcast over the Cambridge FF PA on Sunday morning where you'd be in similarly credulous company].

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:58 PM

I don't feel the need to justify myself to you or anyone else about my opinions, one way or the other.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:56 PM

actually I did nothing of the sort...it's an opinion and nothing more

but read what you wish into it....

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:50 PM

Michael, you assert an opinion as if it is absolute truth, with no proof or arguments to back your position. That is something akin to a gratuitous assertion. Under standard rules of debate, a gratuitous assertion can be just as gratuitously denied. I deny your assertion that all opinions are just as valid as others. For example: I don't find the opinions of those that condone sex with children to have the same validity as those opinions against it. I do not believe that the opinions of Adolf Hitler, with regard to the attempted genocide of the Jews to have the same validity, as say the opinions of Ghandi.

It sounded nice. It just isn't valid.

That is what I was attempting to say.

Mick

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:46 PM

and not being an expert on soaps, UK or othrwise...that rather "gratuitous" allusion means nothing to me *LOL*

really some people need to get lives...soaps...*LOL

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:44 PM

I stand by what I said, regardless, Mick, of whatever it is you're attempting to say....attempting being the operative word here

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:59 PM

'Snork'
(as they say on the mustard yellow pages of Ambridge).

[UK soap allusion]

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:53 PM

each persons views are as legitimate as the next and to deny that is to legitamise censorship.

Crazy Man Michael, I am giving you an assignment and you will be tested on it at a later date. You are instructed to look up the definition of the phrase "gratuitous assertion".

There will be a test......

Mick

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:50 PM

Thank you, Big Mick.
I would never advocate silencing Vin (though I'd prefer him just to play his whistles!)
And Colin Randall and I are continuing our off-topic discussion offlist.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:42 PM

I must agree with Diane on this, redsnapper. This isn't about censorship at all. And the group that is attempting a public campaign to get Vin back in the lineup is also legitimate. If someone was forbidding Vin to express his opinion, we might have a reason for outrage. That is not what we have here. We have a concert promoter who has a finite number of spots. Said promoter is filling those spots based on what will satisfy his customers. There are more performers desiring to perform than slots available. One performer, by virtue of some of the music he performs, would alienate the audience the promoter needs. Hence the promoter goes in a different direction, while the performer continues to express his beliefs and principles in song, but not at this venue. The group trying to get the promoter to bring the performer back is doing exactly the right thing. If they can demonstrate that they want to hear Vin and the advantages to having him outweigh the disadvantages, then the promoter might relent.

My views on women's rights aside, Vin has every right to use the music to expand on his personal beliefs. And women have every right to respond to those views.

Mick

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:30 PM

each persons views are as legitimate as the next and to deny that is to legitamise censorship.

"but that does not make it right to censor someone's ideals just because we disagree."

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:35 PM

I have a considerable problem with people expressing their far from legitimate anti-feminist, racist or otherwise antidemocratic views on any platform (c.f. the example above of neo-fascist infiltration into schools).

You, redsnapper, describe this particular issue as an ethical and personal dilemma.
It is also a political issue of immense sociological, demographic and economic import.
Women need the freedom to decide for themselves, and to take responsibility for theit choices and how these impact on society and the planet.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:28 PM

Diane: I never knowingly ignored an e-mail from you. [e-mail] for future ref


I don't know how many Jewish people you know, but I certainly find it surprising when one is so passionately anti-Israel. I applaud it, as it happens, and think Leon's songs about his religion/socialism - whether or not I agree with them - are among the best political songs I have ever come across, Song of the Old Communist and, yes, the one about his father's notion of Judaism, are priceless.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: redsnapper
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM

Steve Shaw,

I have a considerable problem with the idea that someone cannot express their legitimate (his views are not illegal although very many will not agree with them) views on any platform. That smacks of totalitarianism to me.

My views on that particular ethical and personal dilemma are neither here nor there.

RS

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:27 PM

Mildly off-topic, but I want to express my astonishment at Colin Randall's assertion that Leon Rosselson attacks Zionism, despite being a London Jew. This is a bit like being surprised that every nominally Christian person in London isn't a BNP member, and if not, why not.

Leon was asked (by the Wren Trust some years ago) to write a song on what it means to live in England and be Jewish. This was something of a challenge for a Jew who is neither religious not Zionist, but he came up with My Father's Jewish World:

It's not a nation, not a religion
this Jewish spirit is still unbroken
it's like the candle that mocks the darkness
it's like the song that shatters the silence.

His father gradually lost his belief, became an atheist then a Communist. Now his father's world is gone, burned in the flames of hatred, but Yiddish lingers on and Leon is left on the outside looking in.

It's about believing blindly that YOU (your religion, your gender, your colour) is naturally superior, of making assumptions, and not seeing the need to understand how others feel about stuff that's crucially important to them.

/mildly off-topic.

Colin, I'd have emailed but you didn't answer the last one . . .

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:22 PM

Vin Garbutt has a platform from which to state his views because he is a talented performer and a funny man. He has decided that it's legitimate to use that platform to propagate a message that can only damage women's rights. I don't agree that it is legitimate.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:11 PM

"But are we obliged to give them a platform?"

"but that does not make it right to censor someone's ideals just because we disagree."

That was easy.....

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:08 PM

"Britain is meant to be the land of free speech"
the right to self-determination no matter if you agree with a persons direction in life or not.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:31 AM

Nice typo Colin
Giok

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Colin Randal
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:15 AM

Borin's fine, but I meant Boris!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:14 AM

I'm a woman. I'm not anti-abortion. I believe in a woman's right to maintain control over her own body. I also believe that Vin Garbutt has a right to express his views without being accused of telling women they "must conform to oppression".

I've often wondered what Pat's (Mrs Garbutt)views are on the subject?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Colin Randall
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:12 AM

Maybe Sparkles knows the abortion pro/anti ratio among women better than Vin ...ONE WHOLE WOMAN in favour of a singer/songwriter telling HER story(presumably that of a woman who'd aborted) may not be any great thing...but Vin says that was the ONLY personal reaction he recalls from his last gig at Cambridge, and presumably he'd remember if he'd been, say, booed off. If he's right, one up for the Cambridge crowd's tolerance.

I disagree, as do many, with Vin's views. As it happens, he knows that, and once complained that I'd called him (in print) self-opinionated; opinionated wd have been OK with him.

But I disagree a lot more with anyone who'd stop him holding and expressing his view. I would fight as hard, whatever my private thoughts for or against, for Danish cartoons mocking Islamist fanatics, Robb Johnson's hard left views, Leon Rosselson's attacks on Zionism (despite being a London Jew) and even, if they chose to put their thoughts to song, Right wing columnists like Simon Heffer and Borin Johnson.

Britain is meant to be the land of free speech, but often it seems anything but. That depresses me, but it doesn't surprise.....

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 10:59 AM

Not everyone who turns up at one of his shows will know what he's likely to come out with.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Sparkles
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:25 AM

Free speech, right to sing or play what you want - fine. But I also have the right to not listen, never mind PAYING to listen to him. and I would not go near a performance of his because that sort of stuff is going to make me angry & upset & feel bad and lifes just too short. I don't go to concerts to be insulted and get cross. This has to affect the way organisers think because it will end up costing them ticket sales. There are plenty of people who wont go to hear him however good he is, that's a fact that becomes an economic reality.

In Colin's link Vin says that a woman came up to him and said he was spot on (or something). He then repeats this and makes a huge fuss of it. ONE WHOLE WOMAN agreeing with him, wow.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:22 AM

I think everyone is agreed that Vin is entitled to his opinions. I think everyone is agreed that no one has an automatic right to any given booking. I suspect that the Cambridge FF organisers know their audience, and believe that the audience would not appreciate Vin's appearance there. It's perfectly legitimate to make a fuss to point out that there are numbers who would like to see him. It is slightly less than legitimate to use national newspapers, who know nothing about folk music and tend to ridicule it, to give bad publicity to the festival. If successful, such a campaign could merely mean no festival for him to be booked for. It also seems fishy that they are highlighting the abortion issue; the only likely beneficiaries of this would be the anti- abortion lobby groups.

As for abortion, I think the campaigners against would be more credible if they didn't limit their activity to advocating reducing the rights of other people, but worked to reduce the demand for abortion by promoting responsible sex and contraception, improved welfare for single parents and better access to child care if they want to work. I understand that Vin is a Catholic, but that does not necessarily mean he is against contraception- most active Catholics I know are totally opposed to the official Church stance on this.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Gedpipes
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:13 AM

Whats this about Chemical workers?
Blue skies (bit not in Lazenby?)
cheers
Ged

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:12 AM

Bernard

but that does not make it right to censor someone's ideals just because we disagree.

But are we obliged to give them a platform? I'd certainly resign from the committee of the club I'm involved with if the others wanted to put this chap on. (I'm sure they wouldn't.)

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:05 AM

It amazes me how folkies are all for "anti" songs as long as it doesn't touch a nerve with them. Years ago, a friend of mine wrote a song in support of the Greenham Common women but certain people at my local folkclub were outraged and threatened to boycott the club if the song was sung there. And, of course, the anti/pro abortion argument will never be resolved one way or the other; for example, as soon as certain women start talking about their rights, the other side talk about the rights of the unborn baby. And so it goes...

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:56 AM

'Folk' is historically a platform for people to air their views, not just in recent times. If we disagree with the views or sentiments of the writer, that is our choice, just as it is the choice of the writer/performer to express those views.

Songs are often deeply rooted in the writer's passionate beliefs... Ewan MacColl, John Tams, Leon Rosselson, Jez Lowe, Allan Taylor, Ted Edwards, George Papavgeris... to name but a few.

Okay, they want to change the world, and the world may not want to change... but that does not make it right to censor someone's ideals just because we disagree. By the same token, though, we should not be forced to listen to the views of others because of emotional blackmail - 'you don't agree with my point of view, therefore you are stupid/unfeeling/fascist/communist/(insert whatever you like!)...'

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:50 AM

I don't like my second-last sentence there.   Anything could be a good song topic. It's the approach to the topic that's misguided.