Wild mountain thyme

Subject: Wild mountain thyme
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 05:47 AM

The Celts are always ganging up on us anglos, so at the risk of starting something that may have been discussed here before I started lurking (if so just let it die a natural death) I thought it might be nice to get the Scots and Irish (& their decendants) at each other's throats! Is "Wild Mountain Thyme" a Scots or Irish song? I learnt it from a Scot I've known for 30 years and assumed it was Scottish and have seen it attributed "trad Scottish" in some songbooks but I know some Irish who claim it as their own (and I've seen it attributed to the McPeakes). Give the banjo players a respite and let a new battle commence! PS Why are exiled Welsh less prominent in folk circles than Scots and Irish, when they're never reticent at singing (in Michael Flanders' words :"much too loud, much too often and flat")? Having now insulted most of my friends I'll go and hide!

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Ian Stephenson
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 05:56 AM

Wooden spoon at the ready!!

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From:
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 06:45 AM

The lyricks are derived from a poem "Braes of Balquidder" written by Scottish poet Robert Tannahill circ 1760 or so. I'm not sure of the tune origons but two versions that I know of differ slightly, one being "Wild Mt. Thyme" and the other "Braes of Balquidder" can be heard on the Tanahill Weavers Capernaum.

O'Hanrahan ...of both Irish and Scottish heratage, but then we all know the Scots are just an Irish tribe.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Bruce O.
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 09:38 AM

Search old threads for a copy of Tannahill's song, and more info.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Jane Bird
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 09:52 AM

I know it sounds Scottish, and for a long time I thought it was as well. However, as I understand it, Francis McPeake III claims to have written it. And I've heard him say so, too. He's from Northern Ireland, and given the history of that area, it wouldn't be surprising if the song sounded rather Scottish.

Cheers,
Jane

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From:
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 11:41 AM

See refreshed thread Braes o' Balquidder (click here).

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 01:04 PM

Say, Roger the Zimmer, I was wondering if you would mind letting me know where you and your knees are living presently. I have some lads that would like to visit.

*****grin******

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 01:10 PM

Ah, finally........Now that's more what we're lookin' for......Kick him in the ass Mick......Go for the jugular Roger......Let's get this thing movin' dammit!!!!

catspaw (multi-ethnic based cheering section)

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Herge
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 02:45 PM

Rod Stewart recently recorded this and stated it was a traditional song - there then followed a court case which McPeake won!!

Herge

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Harald
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 03:36 PM

Here you find a MP3 of Wild Mountain Thyme.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Bruce O.
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 04:52 PM

Robert Tannahill was born about 1772. Scots traditional versions of his song are that sung by Betsy Miller (Ewan MacColl's mother) on a phono record, and those at #862 in 'The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection', IV, 1990.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 05:03 PM

Also sung by Carrie Grover in Maine. Caroline (my wife) sings one that was collected in Tennessee, but from a woman who was obviously Scottish. Beautiful version with a lovely tune! I'm willing to give Francis McPeake credit for the particular version most people know, but I'll still give credit for the original text to Robert Tannahill, as Bruce has noted here.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: LEJ
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 05:53 PM

Always liked The Byrds version on, I believe, Renaissance Fair . Sure, they were dilettantes, but sometimes those harmonies rang like bells. And, besides, those boys brought folk music in a form we could dig to a lot of pimply-faced 14 year olds like yours truly.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Colin The Whistler (inactive)
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 09:50 PM

Yes Herge, your right.. Mc Peeke Won !!! But put the song to the side... And Roger the zimmer, don't take this to heart mucker..but I think the chances of you striking up a thread on mudcat that could set the Socts and Irish at each others throats, over yours, is very slim knowing your crowd's history.

Up The Celts.. Orange or Green !!!!

I think Big Mick has a point...Just cary on dancing 'round your May -pole with ribbons on your hair and beating sticks off each other..

..sorry brother..but your just providing fuel for the fire that dos'nt warm us to you. You wanna ask a question about a song..do it.. but excuae this..Drop the typical English approach!!!

Lighten up xxxx

Sorry..(I'm I barred after this ?)

Colin Ballygally

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Roddy
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 09:13 PM

Let's put this to bed once and for all:- 1. The song is indeed Tannahill's "Braes o' Balquidder." 2. The claim that Francis Mc Peake Sr. - the grandfather of the present "Young" Francie - wrote it is spurious. 3. There was no court case which "the Mc Peakes won". There was lots of local interest in the use of the song in the TV ad. and some threatening noises were made, but the claim was so patently wrong that the whole thing was quietly forgotten .

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 09:59 PM

Three cheers for tradition!

Sandy

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: chrissy
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 05:01 PM

The song "Wild mountain thyme" was sang in Scotland by Robert Tannahill of Paisley it is called "The Braes of Balquidder". The song that was sang by Frank McPeake was called "Will you go,lassie go?" learned from his uncle in North Ireland. He first sang it in 1952.It is also known as " Purple Heather". A Hymn version also with a pentatonic tune appears in a collection of Wesleyan "Sacred Harp"songs; it is called "The Sinner's Invitation'.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Banjeray (inactive)
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 06:06 PM

Sandy, the hell with TRADITION.....Let's just do it like we always have!

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Bruce O.
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 06:13 PM

Robert Tannahill probably got his title from an old Scots tune, "The Braes of Balquheder" printed as early as 1742 (See Scots tune index on my website for early copies). Robert Burns' song "Ilk care and fear" is printed (chorus first) to the tune in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #193, 1788.

Tannahill's song is in "Pocket Encyclopedia of Scotch, English, and Irish Songs', II, 1818. Four of Tannahill's song are in 'The Little Warbler', 1804, but not this one. However, most of his songs were first printed in magazines, not songbooks. (Before he died in 1810, obviously.)

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Roddy
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 07:02 PM

Chrissy, Which "Frank" Mc Peake do you refer to. There were three of them in three generations; "Old Frank / Oul' Francie" or "Me Da" to his children. His son "Wee Francie" (not because of his size, though he was small, but because of the necessity of distinguishing him from his father). Then there is the third Francie - "Young Francie" as he is known - the son of "Wee Francie" and grandson of "Oul' Francie". Young Francie is the only one still living. He founded and continues to run the Clonard School of Traditional Music. A man of unbounded enthusiasm and with the knack of communicating that enthusiasm to his young pupils.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Apr 99 - 05:29 PM

Well that is all very clear now, I am glad it is settled once and for all...... *smiles*

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 20 Apr 99 - 10:45 AM

Thanks to all for a typical Mudcat mixture of erudition and good humour: I can now bore for Britain on another subject once I get out of the bunker and remove the shamrock, thistles and leeks inserted in various orifices. My server denied the existence of the mudcat for a time today I assuaged the withdrawal symptoms by doing a Yahoo search on Mudcat, found several sports teams and musicians who use the soubriquet- sue them, Max!

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 20 Apr 99 - 10:53 AM

Roger: I'm an exiled Welshman, and some would have it that parts of me are extremely prominent.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 20 Apr 99 - 11:11 AM

Dai, despite my "stirring" thread I do have Celtic links: I went to Cardiff & Aberystwyth universities (where I made many lasting friends), had an Irish grandfather (born in India!) and a Scots best man at my wedding! iechyd da Roger

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Aug 99 - 11:24 AM

Two verses from here

I will range through the wilds
And the deep land so dreary
And return with the spoils
To the bower o' my dearie;
Will ye go, lassie, go?

Oh, the autumn-time is comin'
And the leaves will soon be fallin',
And the blossoms o' the summer
Will soon wither on the mountain;
Will ye go, lassie, go?

Me, I'm going with the theory that Francis McPeake wrote it. To me, it feels like people want the song to be old and anonymous (would that make a good album title?) too much. Is anyone aware of this song in its present form turning up anywhere before McPeake?

Previous discussion: Wild Mountain Thyme

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Tim Richards
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 08:05 PM

Would anyone happen to know the whole song and the notes to play it. I heard this song on a show on discovery channel and instantly wanted to find the lyrics, i had known the tune ok but it doesn't seem to fit with your lyrics.

P.S. writing the lyrics on paper and scanning them usually makes them easier to understand

thanks to anyone who can

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Micca
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 08:30 PM

You ought to see the infamous "Deaf and dumb Choral society" do this one in the Barn at Towersey, Very irreverent but hysterically funny if your sense of humour runs that way. The gesture for some of the words are almost as infamous as those for the signed version of "Swing low,Sweet chariot" at England rugby football games. A group of 3 or more can completly "corpse" a singer if it is unexpected, so only do it to people you are CERTAIN has a sense of humour.I am afraid we are a bunch of pisstakers in the Barn especially on the Monday night(after all the people who have work next day have gone) of the Festival when poor old Tony has to keep the diehards under control.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 09:09 PM

More times than not good songs don't come out of nowhere. Someone takes a song that's there, and twists it aropund until it fits the way they feel, and the way they think - and at some point it's a new song.

That's what happened to this, with the McPeake version. One parent was the old song, the other parent was Francis McPeake. And it was a new song.

And the process still goes on. I've always loved the cynical/ realistic verse "If my own true love won't come, there will surely be another" - but then yesterday I heard a friend sing it in a session for the first time, and he had it "I will surely find no other", which completely changes it round.

But watch it Colin the Whistler - the one thing that means that at the end of the day you have to forgive England a lot of things is Morris Dancing. And the people who despise Morris Dancing most of all are the kind of English who it is hard to forgive anything. (BY that I don't mean folkes being rude about the Morris. We all know we have to say rude things about the dancers on principle, as a way of keeping them in check. But it's like being rude about banjos and bodhrans and squeeze boxes. Or step dancers.)

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: MMario
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 09:46 PM

Mcgrath! Very excited to hear there is someone else out there singing "I will surely find no other". a friend of mine sung it that way by mistake once, like what it did to the song as a whole, and has sung it that way deliberatly since, except in venues where she is not allowed to by management.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Tony Burns
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 10:53 PM

There is a lady at the Toronto Song Circle who has added a verse about impatiently walking a dog that is reluctant to 'do its duty'. Gives a whole new meaning to 'Will you go Lassie go?'.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 11:28 PM

I dunno, old McPeake sounds more like Oscar Brand ever day...*grin*...mess with a song a bit, then claim it as your own...(he actually did a nice job making it a bit more singable, but he also lost something of the flavor of the original..)

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 11:41 PM

Tony, that verse was written by Stephen Suffet, and showed up in a newsgroup a couple of years ago.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Gary T
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 11:48 PM

MMario--I'm dumbfounded! Your friend works at places where the management monitors and prohibits relatively minor word changes in songs? Why do they care? How do they stop her? What do they do if she sneaks it in anyway--shoot her on the spot? Don't make no sense to me.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 03:36 AM

Welsh songs - make 'em so us English speaking tribes can pronounce 'em and we'll gladly sing them, only don't put them to that blasted New Year Carol tune, sick to death of bloody fa la la la las, I mean what sort of word is fa la la la la?

And the Kipper family did a version of WMT with the chorus 'Do you go, lassie, go?' and called it the 'Wild Mounting Time'. Will attempt to post if anyone wants....

LTS

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Stewie
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 03:38 AM

Have you heard the version where the UK band Edward II give it a reggae treatment - great stuff! Tradition is great, but having fun with songs is great too.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 04:13 AM

Edward II do strange things to anything!!

Way back in my dancing days, I was quite happily step hopping around to a TedII gig, when I realised they were playing 'Montego Bay'!

LTS

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 04:18 AM

See... I always heard folks sing it as "I would never find another"... then someone told me that "I would surely find another" were the 'original' (whatever that means) lyrics... I myself prefer the latter.. but that's the cynical bastard that I am! LOL!

Like busses, there's always another one just down the street... but if yer gonna play this song at a wedding, go for the former version.. the mother of the bride will like it much better!! Believe me!!!

Now there's a gig from HELL!!!

Why some people invite a pagan folk singer into a church, I'll never know!

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: MMario
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 09:37 AM

Gary - my friend works in a situation where she is singing with a group in a theatrical performance for the public--therefore the lyrics as handed down by management are what is sung. period. It doesn't seem that strange to me, as managment also dictates what we wear, when and where we can eat, drink, etc.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 09:52 AM

This song is actually COPYRIGHTED? All this time I thought it was traditional? If this McPeake or whatever fellow says he wrote it, does that mean the tune; or the lyrics, because I've seen a million lyrics variations, both slight and extreme in various song books; or both? Does this mean I can't sing this wi' out paying royalties?

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Gary T
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 01:46 PM

Thanks for the clarification, MMario. As you may have guessed, I was imagining something like a solo performer hired for an evening's entertainment at a club, where repertoire, stylings, etc. are almost always at the singer's discretion. Now it makes sense.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: BobLusk
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 07:37 PM

In the mid 1960's I heard the McPeake Family at the Village Gate in NY - Part of the Broadside Hootenannies. Old Francis said that he wrote it as a young man. Nowing the meaning of Thyme and seeing his grin as they were singing it left no doubt in my mind that he had certainly sang it as a young man anyway.

Bob Lusk

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Ed Murphy
Date: 05 Dec 99 - 01:08 AM

Does anyone know of a live version of WMT by the Clancy Bros? I remember hearing it, but I can't seem to find it now. The most memorable part of the song was the audience singing along on the chorus; there's a beautiful voice in the audience that sounds like Joan Baez.

I am making this up?

Ed

Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: THE BRAES O' BOWHETHER
From: Bruce O.
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 03:00 PM

[Repost from rec.music.folk from Bogus Address [Jack Campin]

Craig Cockburn has dealt with "Auld Lang Syne". "The Wild Mountain Thyme" was claimed as original by Francis McPeake; in fact he did no more than slightly adapt "The Braes of Balquhidder", a song by Robert Tannahill from the first decade of the 19th century using a tune called "The Three Carles o' Buchanan". That song was repeatedly anthologized throughout the next 150 years. *But*, what nobody seems to have noticed is that Tannahill's song is an adaptation of one in John Hamilton's "24 Scots Songs" published by Watlen in Edinburgh in 1796.

Hamilton doesn't say outright that he wrote it himself, either; his more than usually muddled notation suggests he didn't and was transcribing someone else's work. So my guess is that it started out as a Scots folk song of the late 18th century by a now-unknown composer from somewhere in Stirlingshire not so very far from where Craig hails from.

Here's a warts-and-all transcription of Hamilton's version:

X:1
T:The Braes o' Bowhether
S:John Hamilton, 24 Scots Songs, 1796
N:H is not standard ABC yet; it means a fermata
N:sic - bars 6 and 8 are too long (2nd to last notes length 2 instead?)
Z:Jack Campin
M:C
L:1/8
K:F
"Slow"
A/ c/|d2 F> G A A> z c| d2 F> G A c/|\
d2 F> G (AG) A> c|(d>e) f> d (c/A/ A2)
||
c |d> e f d c> A Ha> g| f d c> A (A/G/) G3

c/|\
d> e f d c> A Ha> g| f> e (d/e/) (f/d/) (c/A/) A3
c/|
d> e f d c> A Ha> g| f> d (d/c/) (B/A/) (A/G/) G2 A/
G/|\
F> D C> D (F>G) A> c|(d>e) (g/f/) (e/d/) (c/A/ A2)
|]

Now the day's growin' lang lass,
an' sweet shines the weather,
an' we'll owre a' the hills,
to the Braes o' Bowhether.
Amang the Glens an' Rashy dens,
I'll prize thee without measure,
Within my arms, wi' a' thy charms,
I'll clasp my lovely treasure,
In sweetest Love, our time will move,
wi' mair than earthly pleasure;
By the little limpid streams,
On the Braes o' Bowhether.

An' I'll ay loe thee dearly,
Ilk day wes' forgather,
Syne we'll row on the fog,
By the Braes o' Bowhether;
To Pipe or Flute, when time will suit,
We'll dance like ony feather,
An', skip the knowes where Claver grows,
Or stray amang the Heather;
Ay free frae strife in sic a life,
There, weary shall we never,
By the limpid little streams,
On the Braes o' Bowhether.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Bruce O.
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 05:08 PM

The ABC above from John Hamilton's book is practically the same as that in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #193 (1788). According to John Glen (Early Scotish Melodies) the tune was published by John Walsh in his 24 country dances for 1742. A version of the tune with a few notes different and engraved as an instrumental rather than vocal score is in book 1 of Gow's 'Complete Repository' (I initially thought it was a differrent tune, but it's really the same one again).

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Bruce O.
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 05:23 PM

John Hamilton's tune is in DT for "Peggy Alison".

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From:
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 07:54 PM

Thanks, Bruce. That's formidable research. Amazing the work that you have done over the years.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From:
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 10:50 PM

Forgive any errors - this is my first attempt in this arena.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Walter
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 10:56 PM

I hope I do this right - it's my first try in Mudcats. Has anyone 12-string guitar tab for WMT, preferably in DADGAD or some other alt tuning?

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 06:56 PM

Jeri !

Go back and read what Roddy has said. He's totally correct. As also is Bruce O.

Thinking won't make it so.

Annraoi

Subject: Lyr Add: DOGGONE IT! (parody by Stephen L. Suffet)
From: GUEST,Stephen L. Suffet
Date: 02 Nov 00 - 08:51 PM

Greetings:

Here's how my parody goes. I have had the pleasure of hearing sung back to me by people who had no idea I was the author.

---- Steve

DOGGONE IT!
Lyrics: Stephen L. Suffet © 1997, 1999
Muse: "Wild Mountain Thyme" (McPeake Family)

Oh, I walked my dear old collie,
Across the blooming bower,
But she never stopped to piddle,
Though I walked her half an hour.
Will you go, Lassie, go?

And we'll all go together,
As we walk our bloody dogs,
Regardless of the weather.
Will you go, Lassie, go?

---

Line breaks dribbled in. --JoeClone
Added to the Digital Tradition Oct 97 -JRO-