Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 02:25 PM

I agree, a very good piece of radio. The BBC Radio Newcastle station manager sounds like a very good "yes man", and gave answers of the sort normally attributable to a politician. Still, he is providing what his listeners want so God doesn't mind!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 01:43 PM

Modesty forbids.....ah well,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/atoz/index.shtml#f

go to "Feedback" and "listen" - it's towards the end so you can fast forward 15 minutes if you like.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: stallion
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 01:29 PM

can anybody do a blue clicky to a listen again?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 10:38 AM

The BBC Radio Newcastle station manager gave a listener figure of 7000 for the folk show in a population of 1.4M. So that was 0.5% of the population of Radio Newcastle catchment areas actually listening. That is a bit lower than Mike Harding's 800,000 listeners in a population of 60M (1.3%). However given that 2M listeners in a total population of 60M (3%) get the whole of Radio 3 provided for their pleasure, 0.5% isn't that small.

I had to smile at the DAB piece in front of the folk item too. Having invested so heavily in DAB, the BBC is obviously feeling quite vulnerable at the recent adoption of the new DAB+ International standard, which will eventually make most existing DAB radios obsolete. The commercial guys are already pressuring Ofcom to support the change her in the UK. The funny thing is of course it that if the BBC did move to DAB+ they could get about twice as many channels on their multiplex and all at higher quality than now, so the capacity for broadcasting more "specialist" music nationwide would be much greater.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 10:35 AM

Well - it was hard - when I did the recording she asked me precisely that question she asked on the programme - and I thought long and hard about the answer.

When faced with these dilemmas I look at the alternatives. I thought I would have looked daft saying "it'll die, we are al doomed" when so obviously it wouldn't - so that was the solution I came up with. I hadn't prepared for that one - unlike I just happened to have quotes from the BBC's mission statement!!

We also went through the finger in the ear bit - I pointed out that no-one really did it - said that pop musicians had now copied it so they could hear themselves better and I asked her if she was wearing headphones!! To be honest I thought they mentioned it so they could get away from it.......

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 10:02 AM

Yes, I was a bit worried at the overall conclusion that a programme wasn't needed after all when the truth is just not there! I think it's a case of Frozen Gins all round and a pint of Vinegar (Reel) for the station manager. Oh and he is an outsider to Tyneside who knows not a lot about the city he now works in and provides programmes for. Definite Middlesbrough-ish accent . . .

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 09:55 AM

Well done for getting the subject aired,Dave. By media standards a very fair piece I thought.I am prepared to overlook the obligatory "finger in the ear" remark, particularly as there was no mention of Aran sweaters. A pity they didn't(unless I missed it) mention that Alistair Anderson was the prime mover in the Newcastle University course, etc etc, by the way.. Anyway, the tone of the piece felt right, and I doubt if the station manager will be best pleased, he came across (a) as shifty and(b) as an outsider who didn't have any idea what he was talking about.
   In fact, considering what tiny little snippets the programme-makers use, and considering they have the editorial control, I think Folkiedave has done us all proud. He set the agenda powerfully enough to ensure his general approach was followed , and I think the peroration at the end was great(even if it might lead some to suppose we don't actually need folk on the radio, as it manages so well on its own!).

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: redsnapper
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 09:31 AM

Heard it too and it was a fair piece. Well done FD.

RS

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 09:26 AM

Thought I'd say something just to get 100 but you beat me.
Rachael McShane was excellent, getting in bits about local musicians being invited onto Radio Newcastle but I expect she was pissing herself laughing about Roger Bolton describing the opening of Sloe Gin (Spiers) as 'very traditional' and the ending The Sloe (Trad) as 'getting more funky'.
I was amazed at the numner of points they let Dave get in.
Jolly well done (though the overall conclusion that music will live on whatever the fate of broadcasting at Barrack Road was probably not what the station manager was looking for!)

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 09:15 AM

I thought it was Ok. Remember I recorded a good ten minutes of material and the bits they used I was delighted with. I thought Rachel McShane was brilliant and so was Stan Ambrose.

Maybe I am easily pleased but that was a pretty good piece of radio IMHO. They got away from the usual format "person makes complaint and BBC suit replies" and it was all the better for it. Well appreciative of Bellowhead. Good.

The bits I said at the end about the BBC remit was straight from the BBC core values.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 09:06 AM

I should have said I was referring to the recently transmiited Feedback programme, not any posts on this thread!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 09:05 AM

Hey, great clever remark about "finger in the ear" old-style folk. Are these presenters so witty they can think of these comments for themselves? Or is there perhaps a BBC House Style Book, written by some latter-day Oscar Wilde, which makes it obligatory for this to be said on all programmes that refer to folk music?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 12:04 PM

Quite why that perceived "need" came so far up the BBC Management's list of priotities for new services is an interesting one.

Especially given that BBC Management already had this alternative proposal for a new "specialist music" network in front of them. I can't understand why the BBC Trust isn't already out there finding the "public value" of our brainchild. I guess we didn't charge them big enough consultancy fees for our efforts over those few days or give them any fake footage with which to make idiots of themselves.

BBC Radiate

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:33 AM

Odd that one minority of these islands is being considered for a network of their own, no problem with that, but, yet again, nothing for English music (or Jazz, or lots of other things!!)

Exactly.

Quite why that perceived "need" came so far up the BBC Management's list of priotities for new services is an interesting one.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 01:05 AM

Keith, if you take the time to read the links you posted and think about the BBC remits then folk music is being badly represented.

Folk music is a national heritage across the English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish. As such it should get coverage.

Opera and classical get more TV coverage on the Beeb than folk - why? Probably because that is the things that wannabe ministers/councillors/high-ups like to be seen preening at. They love the snob value. Without researching I don't believe the Arts Council puts much into folk music, but they certainly do into the other two, oh and add ballet to that list.

I don't disagree with the Asians, Blacks or whatever minority getting coverage, but at least give the same privelage to a home-based movement.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:17 AM

This is the Public Value Test. It is available in Welsh too, though not in Gaelic. Shame.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:02 AM

Keith.
Very interesting. Odd that one minority of these islands is being considered for a network of their own, no problem with that, but, yet again, nothing for English music (or Jazz, or lots of other things!!)
And what's a "Public Value Assessment" when it's at home? Sounds like Birtspeak to me!!
Ralph

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:46 AM

"1 Xtra, BBC7 (speech based), The Asian network?
Partly to help push digital along, and partly as a sop to the government, saying that we are fulfilling are public service remit, by catering for the black and asian communities.
Before we get a Folk station, they have got to cater for a Muslim network first (Don't think thats very likely in the circs)"

An interesting related piece of news. The BBC trust embarking on a "public value assessment" of a Gaelic language digital service.

BBC Press Release

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:53 AM

There was folk on BBC6 last Friday in Tom Robinson's show - a few live songs from Richard Thompson and a little discussion re Liege & Lief with Ashley & Simon joining. But no coverage of Cropredy you say - to say nothing of the warm up gigs at the Mill, Banbury which usually sound a lot better!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:07 AM

Re analogue switch Off in the UK.
Well Tv will start next year, and gradually be rolled out across the country by 2012. (you can imagine the howls of protest as peoples TVs go blank!!)
Radio on the other hand is more difficult.
Most people have several, including in the car, and at the moment there aren't many DAB car radios around, and the ones there are ars hellishly expensive.
So, I don't think a decision has been made about that.
R

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 03:37 AM

FolkieDave - no agree, if you don't have a tv you don't pay a fee,all others do which is where the beeb get their money from for both tv and radio. You are a minority though paid for by the rest of the licence payers.

Keith - oh my I am wrong (tv/radio),guess that is human - what's your excuse?

Ralphie is right in that all other channels will have to be done before folk (and paid for by the great british taxpayer).

Remind me when analogue gets shut off?

Until then the beeb should cater for all as is their mandate.....

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:59 AM

This year iirc, the beeb are doing 4 1/2 hour excerpts sometime in September on the radio. Big difference from tv.

No, those Cambridge programmes in September are on TV, on BBC 4. The radio coverage has been going on various shows over the weekend and finishes with the Mike Harding show this Wednesday.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:57 AM

To add to what Keith has said.
Re Sidmouth you are quite right.
It was crewed by a Birmingham team of OB engineers and Studio Managers (The prog was produced in Brum at the time), and they normally used SCV6 (a very large truck with an SSL desk in it, watching it park behind the cinema was always a laugh!).
Some years the programme was even broadcast live from the cinema, with some pre-recorded items between the live acts.
As the whole operation was "In-House" so to speak, all the gear needed came free, the only expenses being salaries for staff etc.
Then along came John Birt and "Producer Choice", trying to turn the Beeb into an open market, meaning that a Producer had to pay money from his yearly budget to other depts to get things done, studio time, OB vehicles, records from the record library, even pronunciation Unit! All the money was "virtual" of course, but beware going over budget!
Completely ludicrous idea I know, but it meant cutbacks for all programme makers, and stifled creativity.
At the same time it was decided that a percentage of programmes had to farmed off to the independent sector.
Jim Lloyd and his producer Geoffrey Hewitt, were coming up for retirement, and therefore Smooth Operations took over the Folk and Country slots on Radio 2.
But, they still had to pay for any BBC equipment they used, (Hard Cash this time), and although I recorded the Ham for a week in 1998, it was deemed to be too expensive to continue.
They still tried to cover parts of Sidmouth for a couple more years using (I think) an ex Radio York transit van, and a freelance engineer, but, when the Cambridge sponsorship deal came along, they obviously felt that would have the bigger audience draw.
You always have to bear in mind that if Smooth Ops don't get listeners, they lose the franchise. Hence playing safe with the playlists on MH's show, and covering CFF.
Producer Choice at the Beeb has been quietly dropped now, but, the Independent sector is very much still there (Feedback itself is an Indie!!)
So, while while these Indies have control over various sectors of the Beebs output, they will play safe.
You may ask why then the minority sations on digital?
1 Xtra, BBC7 (speech based), The Asian network?
Partly to help push digital along, and partly as a sop to the government, saying that we are fulfilling are public service remit, by catering for the black and asian communities.
Before we get a Folk station, they have got to cater for a Muslim network first (Don't think thats very likely in the circs)
Anyway until analogue switch off, there isn't enough bandwidth to go around.
Enough ramblings for now, but, I hope all this helps a bit
Cheers Ralph

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:41 AM

We HAVE TO PAY the licence fee, which funds them.

Never paid a licence fee in my life.

Radio is free of fees and I don't have a TV.

Ralph is correct of course - now that it is done - Feedback Radio 4 1330 Friday Repeated Sunday.

Dave

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:35 AM

Sorry, that is my post above as guest.....

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:34 AM

Get real Keith, pulling from the Cambridge Folk Festival is a money saving exercise.

That money will NOT get put into folk elsewhere, it will go into the "black hole" ......

I agree they avoided a lot of the nations folk festivals, but they must have done something right in that Cambridge got me "involved". I never said Cambridge was the holy grail, but it is the most attended/best known world wide.

It will still sell out in days when the BBC withdraw for 2009 because it is "Cambridge".

This year iirc, the beeb are doing 4 1/2 hour excerpts sometime in September on the radio. Big difference from tv.

They will probably cover the headline acts, so how do the newcomers get seen?

My point throughout has been - the beeb are supposed to reflect minorities, we deserve as much time for folk as classical or opera (for instance). The beeb say as much each time they ask to increase the licence fee - we cater for all. Some (classical/opera) seem to get a better spread though, but then that is more in tune with the policy makers preffered choice.....

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:48 AM

I tend to disagree though that their lack of sponsorship will benefit other folk festivals, it will to all intense and purposes remove their involvement with folk and drive it further from peoples minds.

In the days before BBC Radio 2 became the "headline sponsor" of Cambridge, they used to also record and broadcast live concerts from Sidmouth week. Back in 2002 they were still sponsoring the Ham Marquee at Sidmouth and it was emblazoned with BBC Radio 2 banners. However, inside the venue they had NO recording equipment and indeed they had none up at the (then) main Arena venue either. ALL the practical effort had been switched to Cambridge. They did make an effort at Sidmouth the next year, which was the 40th Cambridge and the 50th Sidmouth. Out of which came both a TV and a radio show. However, they haven't recorded at a folk festival than than Celtic Connections or Cambridge since as far as I know.

What will now happen for the rest of the summer will be Mike Harding will do his post-Cambridge "special" and then go off on holiday and Smooth Ops will pump out a few pre-records for the rest of the summer. They probably knocked up the coming Kate Rusby Special to (effectively) help her advertise her new album while at Cambridge. As always Cropredy and every other festival in August will be ignored, in the same way as both Warwick Folk Festival and the (cancelled) Nantwich Acoustic Festival were ignored last weekend. Yes they did "advertise" Saul a weeks ago, but only after it had been cancelled for several days.

Now, whether the BBC do or don't do anything with any cash they save from Cambridge is entirely another matter. If they shared it round, it could do some good. If they just throw it at eg Jonathan Ross then it won't. But I don't really see why one specific folk festival an hours drive from London and one in Glasgow get all the licence payers money every year while every other one gets zero.

The funny thing is, as is often the case, it is hard to find many that claim to like folk that actually listened to much of what the BBC broadcast from Cambridge this year. Conversely quite a few of Stuart Maconie's more generalist music fans might have heard a few artists they might not normally have, and that probably did do some good. Dermot O'Leary even discovered Joan Baez on Stuart's handover to him. To be fair I didn't know much Joan Baez material when I was Dermot's age either.

Still, given that various worthies from Fairport Convention were on Tom Robinson for the best part of 2 hours on Friday, and that only I here have admitted to listening to any of it, and I fell asleep during part of it, that might be why the BBC doesn't think anyone listens to "folk". Someone on Talkawhile mentioned that they had listened to it all though...

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:43 AM

or then again - maybe not.....

We are currently experiencing technical problems with listen again streams on the BBC Radio Player.

We regret that many programmes are not available. We are working to restore normal service as quickly as possible.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:36 AM

Ah, thanks Ralph.

Found the link, suppose it depends on when it is aired....

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:49 AM

Hi GUEST USA Brit
I'm pretty sure that Dave is talking about"Feedback" on BBC Radio 4.
Transmission times
Friday 1330
Repeated Sunday 2000
(UK times)
Also it's available on the Beebs Listen again facilty on their website, for a week.
Hope that helps
Ralph

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:38 AM

FolkieDave - is there any chance you can get the final broadcast recorded and available? Little chance of me hitting it here in the USA :(

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:24 AM

KeithOfChester - glad you found the link, I was away so unable to reply.

I tend to disagree though that their lack of sponsorship will benefit other folf festivals, it will to all intense and purposes remove their involvement with folk and drive it further from peoples minds.

Without radio or other media coverage, folk will struggle. Word of mouth between advocates does not reach the masses required.I have no doubt most of the folk bands will continue (providing they make ends meet) because they love the music and culture, as do I.

You mention other folk festivals and yes - I know and have been to some of them, but Cambridge was the only one that really got covered.

I think that the BBC is being negligent in it's message of bringing not only mainstream to the airwaves (be it tv or radio) but minorities as well. We HAVE TO PAY the licence fee, which funds them. Minorities are not just classical or opera lovers.....oh, but hang on - the people who decide like that sort of stuff......

Put part of the Worldwide Service Budget (for radio) into folk for the people who pay for it. There would probably be more listeners....

The Mary Blacks, Saw Doctors, Oysterband (et al) will continue,but without exposure then where does the next generation come from?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 07:27 PM

Well, I was looking for Feedback which is a BIG clue!!

Dave

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 12:22 PM

I think I've lost track of this thread. So, what programme is it, and when does it go out? Can we have an update?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 11:56 AM

Done, folks and thanks for all your support.

An embarrassment of riches she said - let wait and see how well it is edited!

I am very sincere in thanking everyone on Mudcat and if you hear the programme I hope you feel that I have reflected your views.

Some of you should certainly recognise them!

One last thing - I have now complained to Feedback twice this year and each time my point has been taken up and broadcast.

Someone out there is listening. Get complaining.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 11:39 AM

Hey well it was a folky interveiw.
I hope you followed the traditional format?
LOL

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 11:11 AM

Well it is all done and dusted and we wait for the result of the editing now.

I certainly gave them enough to edit down to twenty minutes - even though they probably only want 2.5 minutes!!

Sounds like it might be an interesting slot.

Thanks again for all your help - not only has it been a great example of the power of Mudcat - but I have learnt a lot.

Thanks to all who have replied and fingers crossed.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 10:08 AM

nah, there can't be a Steeleye Span single coming out - otherwise Radio2 with all those cutting edge street savvy dudes would have been onto it by now.

Actually t'would be nice.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:14 AM

Hey you never know!
It was an example same as putting you down as the alternative.
If stuff is in the general playlist things I hear about save the time in specialist music progs for different tracks.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 09:22 AM

Tim the Twangler: do you think a new Steeleye single hit is in the offing? Do you know something we don't know? This is 2007, you know.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 08:27 AM

Great thread so far.
Might I just put in a plea that we dont swap the smooth ops veiw of the world for another equaly excusive one.
A prog for folk should maybe take accound of what is managing to get played on the mainstream progs and avoid them?
I mean maybe if there is a new Steeleye single that makes the play list on radio two a folk show could mention that it is available but instead play something by Tom Bliss or Greg (only picked those for example) and change it around every week I stopped listening to MH because of the constant playing of Folky brass band for weeks on end.
and a certain prepoderance of hull based spin of acts.
I enjoy the music but it is already available elsewhere play something different.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 07:36 PM

One question to ask might be how come Radio 2 could sponsor Cambridge and have reasonable coverage there and on TV over the weekend, and then only one hour a week for the rest of the year? This seems to show a conflict of priorities - either the station cares about that genre of music or it doesn't.

If the decision to stop sponsoring Cambridge indicates a change in focus for Radio 2 such that its programming no longer includes folk, it's certainly worth asking which station *will* play folk. We also need to ask where blues, jazz, country, show-tunes, Wurlitzer organ, light classical and all the other specialist "genre" programs on Radio 2 will go - if one genre is axed arbitrarily, which others will follow? Since its foundation as the Light Programme, Radio 2's focus has been to play all genres of popular light music. If this focus is changing, what's the new focus? I don't believe we (the public) have been informed of such significant changes to *our* tax-funded radio stations' programming.

Maybe the BBC could do something with digital radio. If the intention is to set up a "genre" station for these, and leave Radio 2 for light music (Terry Wogan et al) then that would be perfect - no more conflicts of interest. I don't mind it being on digital - but it needs to be *somewhere*.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 12:54 PM

It was announced recently that the BBC would not sponsor Cambridge next year but have not (as far as I have noticed) come out yet in favour of anywhere else.

Thanks Diane, I see it now tucked away on the CFF website. From what I read there the BBC aren't just backing away just from their title sponshorship either, but perhaps the whole sponsorship.

Funnily enough, in the days when the title sponsor was Charles Wells, the BBC used to provide more or less live TV coverage on the actual weekend itself. Since they've been title sponsor and with twice as many TV channels to fill they now seem to need 6 weeks to edit the footage! Last year it even took about 12 weeks.

14/06/07

Opportunity for a new major sponsor for the Cambridge Folk Festival

After a decade of successful sponsorship from BBC Radio 2, including four years as title sponsor, the opportunity has arisen for a new partner to become associated at the highest level, with the highly prestigious and internationally regarded Cambridge Folk Festival, from 2008 onwards.

We would like to thank BBC Radio 2 for their highly valued contribution to the Festival over the past years. BBC Radio 2 have already pledged their broadcast support for 2008 and we look forward to working with them in the future.

http://www.folkfest.entadsl.com/public/ff/news/index.shtml

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 12:19 PM

"I was at school with Tom Robinson,I didnt rate his music then, and I dont now"
Robinson himself I could care less about, it was the fact that Richard Thompson, Ashley Hutchings and Simon Nicol were on the programme discussing Liege and Lief that had me listening

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Marje
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 09:53 AM

I agree with your suggested points listed, Dave. What I'd like to see is:
1. Every BBC local radio station having a weekly folk music hour. It would be a natural place for diary events, session reminders, artists on tour in the area, local festivals, etc.

2. At least an hour a week on national radio for English folk and tradtional music. This would be nothing like Mike Harding's show, and would be a completely separate concept and slot. It could be a mix of archive recordings, new recordings from up-and-coming performers, and tracks featuring the best ceildh bands, soloists and groups on the scene, etc. There could be themed programmes for certain times of year or seasonal "specials", or to mark particular events, festivals or anniversaries. This would have to be on Radio 2 or 3, as Radio 4 is intended to be a primarily a speech station.

3. More folk/trad music played alongside other music on Radio 1,2 and 3. Late Junction already give us quite a bit, but there could be more. We don't want or need this music to be ghoettoised.

4. More inclusion of folk music in mainly-speech programmes (Woman's Hour, Loose Ends, music documentaries) on Radio 3 and 4. It happens sometimes but not enough.

Here's a suggestion in preparing for the recording: make yourself a shortlist of 3 main points you want to get in, and for each of them, break it down into 3 ways you could introduce that point. If desperate, just make your points anyway, no matter what you're asked (like politicians do). And have a final soundbite prepared for when you know the recording's coming to and end.

Good luck!
Marje

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 07:13 AM

The BBC have been backing Cambridge as if there was no other festival for only the last 4 years. They backed the wrong horse in 2003 after Steve Heap announced that he would no longer be running Sidmouth and this was a factor which probably mitigated against the festival getting any dosh from the council in Devon.

It was announced recently that the BBC would not sponsor Cambridge next year but have not (as far as I have noticed) come out yet in favour of anywhere else. I suppose it will depend on the outcome of the dodgy practice review and whether the Smoothies are still in the loop. One hopes very much not. The Young Folk Award is already suspended. My view, obviously, is that the entire production process should be brought back inhouse. We'll see.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:19 AM

The BBC seem to have drawn their line with pulling out from probably the most known about folk festival after next year - Cambridge.

Where is the information about the BBC stopping their Cambridge sponsorship after next year please?

I think that news could actually be positive. At the moment the BBC heavily over-promote Cambridge at the expense of most of the other folk festivals. If they don't have a festival that is effectively "theirs" they might be a bit more even handed in covering other festivals.

Likewise, those that regularly go to Cambridge won't have to endure fighting for tickets with all those people who assume that Cambridge is the only folk festival because it is the only one the BBC extensively "advertise".

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:42 PM

I used to like Tom's music in the 70's. 2 great albums and 2468 Motorway and Martin, and glad to be gay, and warbaby - with the live verse about greenham Common. Not too many folksingers were talking about contmporary issues at the time. I also liked his musicianly qualities -the way he moved easily onstage from keyboards to guitar and then bass. Must have seen him 3 or four times. And there was the Gay Cabaret album from Edinburgh. As a dj - he's okay but nothing special.

I like Roy Harris very much. he must have been round here while i was in Brum - listening to Malc.

to be honest folk djs have it tough - there is such diversity in our music - you can't please everyone. I just feel that locally we have produced two world class contemporary artists (Jack Hudson and Roger Brooks) and that their neglect (clubs, festivals and radio) has been total and utterly shameful. Roger is dead now - too late for him.

I can't see why we are still having this debate. the BBC has made its position very clear. if anyone gets on tv; they're going to have a major record contract. if they get on the radio, they once played kazoo with the third line up of Steeleye /fairport in 1968 or leant Roy Harper a packet of Rizlas backstage in the Troubadour the night that Martin Carthy showed Bob Dylan how to play Blowin in the wind.

Its like the Adrian Henri poem about the man who sold human ears fried in batter - he believed ther is room for innovation in the trade. There isn't.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:35 PM

I was at school with Tom Robinson,I didnt rate his music then, and I dont now.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM

Dave, you are fighting a losing battle (unfortunately).

The BBC seem to have drawn their line with pulling out from probably the most known about folk festival after next year - Cambridge.

Given that the festival sells out each year, pulling their support indicates the way that the higher ups in the BBC see things - they don't rate folk.... so it is going.

I miss the atmosphere and new talent of Cambridge since I moved Stateside. It makes me glad that I no longer have to pay a licence fee to a corporation who neglect a thriving musical genre. OK, it doesn't appeal to everyone, but neither does classical music which gets far more airplay....

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 12:52 PM

Tom Robinson has Richard Thompson, Ashley Hutchings and Simon Nicol with him tonight, Friday, July 27, between 7 and 9pm on 6 Music, discussing Liege & Lief. Rumour also has it that RT will be playing live.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Fudged
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 08:04 AM

How do you get black belt in catipillar wrestling? I'm intrigued

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:44 AM

I think radio 4 is the place for it. There always will be a documentary aspect to folk music as a subject, even if all the tracks that are played are contemporary, and this means Radio 4 to me. Also it's only Radio 4 and Planet Rock that I have programmed in on my digital radio!
The reason I never listen to Mike Harding is that I'm never reminded that it is on, as it's on Radio 2 and not trailed on Radio 4.
The reason that I have trouble in listening to "The drift" on BBC Radio Lancashire is that it's on the same night as we have the best session for miles around and I'm usually getting all the chores out of the way ready to go out.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Fudged
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:40 AM

Leaving aside all the discussion about who is or isn't capable of delivering a decent folk music program, here's my wee view from not very far north. BBC Radio Scotland seem to serve us quite well IMHO - there are few programs that include folk music, and a few specifically for folk music. I mean folk music in a very broad sense - a lot of it isn't to my tastes. (example - Take The Floor has been running for centuries on Saturday nights, and it's live music every single week. It's Scottish Country Dancing so I can't stand it - but my Dad loves it. )
I think, though, that there's a need for more National Folk music broadcasting and radio 3 would seem to be the natural place. Late Junction and Andy Kershaw do their bit, but anything that isn't classical gets shoved to later (and recently, even later) time slots.
I know a lot of you will think it's an old complaint, but there really is a heavy southern bias on the BBC. This was especially true at the Folk Awards. We had a far too short discussion about this on another forum Folk Awards Discussion ..maybe some people here would like to contribute?
I pay a lot more attention to English folk music now than I did a year or two ago - that's since I started using the BBC's Listen Again service to listen to regional shows. If there were national shows that were able to broaden horizons nationaly I think fans, artists and the folk music community as a whole would all benefit

xx

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:04 AM

Good idea Stallion

Not sure Dave will be on for a few days as he should be at Warwick me thinks.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:01 AM

I can confirm what Mark Dowding says. The only reason I have started to listen to Radio Stoke occasionally is because I like listening to Genevieve Tudor's excellent Radio Shropshire folk programme, which also goes out on Radio Stoke.She doesn't half play some crap records, but she introduces them so well!
People's loyalty to radio stations adds up slowly, doesnt it? You like one bit, then you get used to some other stuff, eventually you listen all day. I'm a Radio 4 man. Because I actually like the Archhers, Today, Woman's Hour and Desert Island Discs, I am even prepared to listen to all those old farts whining about their pension funds and gallstones all day.Though I draw a line at desperately unfunny things put on at 6.30PM to try out new public school writers and actors.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:45 AM

I didn't just listen to the Folk show though - I used to listen to the breakfast show and drive time in the evening in the car, the Rugby League coverage, football coverage (some of us folkies are interested in football), the Parlour, and various other programmes. Now I don't bother.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: stallion
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:43 AM

send the presenter a list of questions you want him/her to ask you, if you script it then they don't have to write an agenda or busk it

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:35 AM

"Since "Sounds of Folk" was taken off the "new look" Radio Manchester I haven't tuned in at all!"

That's the point, Mark. Radio Manchester's boss can't see the point in catering for people like you and me (or visitors via the internet), who just drop by for an hour a week. We are no great loss to the listening figures.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: autolycus
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:27 AM

I'd be a little careful of criticising the Beeb the way you're proposing Dave, if only cos broadcasters are a sensitive bunch and might just get defensive.

And if they're going to ask thier questions irrespective of what you say, you might try saying what you intend to say rather than tamely answering their questions.

You might even think it worth while racing to your nearest bookshop or library looking for a book on how to handle the media - such do exist.

   Where there's a will there's a way.

   One argument you might try is that the Beeb forever worries about justifying the licence fee. I've long thought their way forward is to go for more programming that cannot be got anywhere else and that is of real quality. Put that way, you're on their side and gently prodding them all at the same time.

Despite that, the Beeb, one of my favourite things in the world, is not quality from first to last. Any folk music is higher quality thatn some of what the Beeb, and other broadcasters, seem happy with.

Jazz is on radio 3 in the afternoon and early evening (Saturdays), so I don't see a reason in principle therefore for folk not getting the same treatment.

Also the arguments about what the listeners expect and what they can take are real red herrings dressed up as bottom-line thoughts. The programmes earlier this year on telly, The Singing Estate and The Choir, both about very unlikely people showing they can take to music outside their experience given encouragement - both series showed another aspect of the debate. As does the Wagner story below.

In any case, part of the Beeb's reason for being is to lead and educate quite as much as to tickle the fickle public's fancy. Some broadcasters have either forgotten that, or are of a nervous disposition.



There could be any munber of ways of getting folk on radio 4 or 2, e.g. a 10-, or 12-, of ??-part history of the folk music tradition; the folk music of the British Isles county by county; the themes of folk music; its place in British Society; folk and town/country problem; folk and the industrial problem; folk music and the Jewish Problem; (I made that one up); 10 influential folk singers; the story of folk music collectors; WHAT IS FOLK MUSIC?; the future of folk music; the use of folk music in the year-long, kingdom-wide, cycle of folk traditions and customs.

Where there's a will, the imagination can readily follow.

As for chattering folk, I've just read elsewhere online about two little boys spotted at a performance of Wagner's Gotterdammerung in Glasgow who silent and attentive throughout. Let's learn from the young.   

Good luck,





      Ivor

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 02:32 AM

"I can understand his point of view - he wants a loyal constituency that tunes in regularly"

Since "Sounds of Folk" was taken off the "new look" Radio Manchester I haven't tuned in at all!

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:36 PM

Folk music was swept off local radio for a very good reason - folkies only tuned in for that particular hour and then switched off. My local radio station boss (Manchester) says that the schedule lacked continuity and coherence when it pigeon-holed particular interests. He promised to put folk, gardening, Irish, Asian, Polish, gay and lesbian stuff into the mainstream. Well that hasn't happened yet.

I can understand his point of view - he wants a loyal constituency that tunes in regularly. The frustrating thing for listeners is that there is nothing we can do about the BBC's impenetrable denseness in thinking we are a small group of beardy weirdies.

It will take something like the Classic FM model (the station that tapped into the classical music lovers who could not bear the patrician Radio 3,) to shake the almighty Radio 2 from its perch.

Because that's where folk, roots and traditional music belongs:   Eliza Carthy beside the superlative Amy Winehouse, the scottish trio Lau rubbing shoulders with Muse and the rest.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:02 PM

Dave
My experience of going on the radio, is you never get chance to really say what you had thought of saying. So just go with an open mind and be ready to answer any question that may come up.
The presenter will probably have pre conceived questions that have no relation to what you wanted to say.

Anyway, good luck and plug what you can for what its worth. :-)

Enjoy Warwick.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:34 PM

Hi I am not a great admirer of the MH show, though I don't mind MH - so long as he doesn't just toe the party line - which he does nowadays.

The Newcastle programme was closed because it needed geeing up and given a new lease of life. As was the Sheffield show, the Hull show, the York Show, the Manchester Show etc. Mike has to hang on to the listeners from the previous show. and the Radio 2 audience. Clearly it is believed that show does not need any changes - despite what many the listeners say. And despite what local radio says.

When Jim Lloyd was doing the Folk on Friday - Folk on Sunday, Folk on Tuesday, Folk on Wednesday programme and it did change that often - I wrote to the BBC and complained about the lack of folk music on Radio.

Local radio will be the place they said!!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM

Folkiedave: of the pieces I made for Folkweave in the 70's/early 80's, no less than four made "Pick of the Week".I was very pleased about that, it showed that what we were doing was not to be ghettoised, but was felt worthy of a wider audience. That is surely what we should all be aiming for, making folk music interesting, on every station at any time of day.
    My suggestion, earlier, that the Mike Harding show has had its day: I would like to modify that. I meant what I said, insofar as I was talking about the Smoothops version of what to do with an hour of Mike Harding. I believe that format is long past its sell-by date, but that is not a criticism of Mike himself. He is an enthusiastic, knowledgable, masterly presenter, a splendid musician and a very funny man. My criticisms are totally reserved for what Smoothops make him do. If I had a free hand to make folk programmes for the BBC, I'd be very happy to have Mike present thewm. But they wouldn't end up sounding anything like what Radio 2 puts out now. They'd be very very exciting, for a start!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: peregrina
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM

This sounds great--just the kind of persuasive almost incontrovertible comment that lets the recipient save face. It's encouraging to know that you are being given this chance, too.

More than 42 posts on this thread in such a short time.
Strength in numbers.
What if we all now also e-mailed local BBC and national BBC instead of just posting to each other?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:12 PM

Perfect.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:23 PM

I suspect I am not going to have a great deal of time. We are probably talking about a ten minute slot for four people.

I am really grateful for your thoughts and a consensus seems to be emerging for which I am really very grateful.

What I shall probably say is something like this and I would now like your thoughts on this........

There is a place for traditional music on all networks. Woman's Hour has a policy of inviting successful women performers on and these have got taken up by "Pick of the Week" so it must be interesting listeners. Radio 2 has its "folk" slot and Radio 3 plays some traditional music on "Late Junction". Radio Four had that programme about "Bright Phoebus", "Singer not the Song" a series about young Scottish musicians and another about Irish music.

At the same time there is a resurgence of interest in traditional music, there are lots of young and astonishingly good performers, and this is not reflected in BBC output. The very audience producers seek - young people. I hear on regional broadcasting in Scotland and I hear and I hear it on regional broadcasting on N.Irish radio.

So here we have a new wave of interest in traditional music all over England that I do not see reflected on BBC radio - who are supposed to reflect their community. The place where you can find a lot of young folk musicians is Newcastle on the Performance Degree Course. The place where local radio has just shut down its local folk programme. (Which of course was the cause of my original complaint).

Thoughts please - and let me say you have all been wonderful so far. I am lucky to have such supportive comments.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:54 PM

"We tried a live folk session with Michael Brothwell but very little was usable because the audience nattered through all of it, and they were invited performers!"

You must have just stuck a couple of mics in the middle of the room then, because if recorded from a mixing desk, the audience would be barely audible!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:44 PM

yes I did; and do you seriously think the BBC is ever going to follow suit? Not in this or anyother life time.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:44 PM

"keeping the mid-Atlantic style for the first 30 minutes, then gradually harden towards the pure drop "

... hey, you could call it "Country Meets Folk". It might catch on, you never know...

Lots of excellent suggestions on this thread already.

Mike Harding could be kept on as long as the BBC doesn't dictate policy to SmOps who then tell MH what to play - in fact if Mike had a free rein I supect he'd play a lot more proper folk music and enjoy it much more, as we all would.

It certainly is worth mentioning Norway's national 24-hour trad station. I doubt the BBC will do that but it is good for them and the public to know just how far behind they are. Sotland and Ireland also have huge amounts of traditional music on their regional radio - big regular programmes and not just at 2:30am...

A proper folk programme on every local radio station - essential. There is so much scope for announcements of local gigs, *totally* appropriate to local radio and the BBC needs to actively recruit good presenters for those programmes - there's plenty of suitable and willing talent!

Other than that, more on all the national channels. Radio 3 and 4 aren't doing too badly. Radio 3 is emphatically not just classsical music, and just as it has a long jazz sequence on Saturday late afternoons it could do the same with folk. Moving Late Junction back to its earlier time would help. There's a lot of folky stuff mixed in with things like the breakfast programme too, which used not to be the case. Valuable for exposing a new audience to it.

Perhaps Ralphie could come back as a part time folk programming consultant to the Beeb?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:40 PM

Right on your own doorstep WLD both Roy Harris and John Shaw, with all respect to "Folkwaves", did a cracking job presenting folk music to the East Midlands before,it appeared, that their services were no longer required. Hopefully Roy might join in here to tell of some of the trials and tribulations that he suffered in order to play folk music on his programme, as opposed to playing some station manager's preconceived idea of what folk music should be.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:39 PM

That reply above was to Tom.
And CMM, didn't you read what I already said about Radio Norway and its 24-hour PSB trad station?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:37 PM

John Walters told me that too when picking his brains for music in Children's Programmes. The little sods got all sorts they didn't know they wanted or would like (including a stepdancing champion on Blue Peter). Yes, I was the cruel one who inflicted that, AND the native American dancers, AND I got away with it.

When traditional music and culture is presented with pride and not embarrassment you'd be surprised at what you can get listeners and viewers to accept as 'normal', especially by relatively undamaged minds.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:32 PM

Nice pipe dream...but it ain't ever going to happen.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:15 PM

Hi Dave,

Well done for getting this gig - and the best of British!

My 6d; I'd agitate for one hour a week on EVERY local sataion, regardless. (I don't have the figures to hand but this is justified for cultural reasons if nothing else).

And I think a change in the MH format might help.

Their brief is to hang onto the country audience.

Fine.

I'd suggest keeping the mid-Atlantic style for the first 30 minutes, then gradually harden towards the pure drop (an extra half hour would help) taking the listeners along with them.

What was that old adage about educating?

It's only a matter of programming anyway:

5ust loose the three-song-plug, which has long had its day, and is anyway very unfair given the brevity of the slot, and try instead to reflect what's really happening out here.

As Kershaw said to me for RadioBritfok - quoting John Walters (also Peel's producer):

"Our job as broadcasters is not to give people what they want, it's to give them what they didn't KNOW they wanted."

Quote that Dave, if you say nowt else!

Tom

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:05 PM

Historically, the BBC are very conversative in their music output. From the mid-50s to the arrival of the Beatles they tried to ignore rock music; eventually, they were shamed into creating Radio One. They almost totally ignored the folk boom of the 60s/70s. I reckon that around 1970, over 200,000 folkies a week were attending folk clubs in the UK. Far more than ever attended classical music events. The tremendous world-wide interest in Irish folk music that followed in the wake of Riverdance seemed to pass the BBC by. I'm afraid attitudes haven't changed much at the BBC in over 60 years!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:03 PM

Dave, can you set your sights just a bit higher than 'let's have an hour or so more of X or Y's poxy DJ programme? What's transmitted now on local radio, dwindling as it is, is scarcely either cutting edge or comprehensive. Most people could do far better themselves from their own CD collections.

The BBC is, supposedly, a Public Service Broadcaster and should be held to it. Norway, for example, has a 24-hour, dedicated national trad music channel:

NRK Nettradio

We should aim for this too, or better still, one each for the English regions.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Dave Higham
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 02:28 PM

I know I'm speaking for a minority audience, but living (and working!) in S W France one of my great pleasures was listening to Radio 4 on the car radio going to and from work and at lunchtimes. Apart from the World Service Radio 4 is the only channel you can receive at this distance on LW. Even that had its frustrations. The BBC must think that all ex-pats would obviously prefer cricket if there's a test match on and so that's what I got. The interesting stuff was switched onto FM and I could spend my lunch-break listening to 2 blokes droning on about whether it might stop raining and "oh, look! here comes that dog again".....
Now I can 'listen again' on t'internet and I have to say that the best 2 folk programmes on radio are Mick and Lester's (knocks MH into a cocked hat) and Archie Fisher's (YMMV).
Sorry to go blethering on Dave, I know this doesn't help much.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:59 PM

Head over parapet time.
Firstly good luck Dave.
Don't hide your bush under a lightel though, get stuck in.
Yes, of course your pithy comments will end up on the floor...(actually they won't, tape is a banned substance in BH nowadays...you'll just end up as a deleted file on their playserver!!)
As far as Live recordings Clubs/Festivals etc, Yes, The heady days of Jim Lloyd and Folkweave, not to mention the BBC Concert Hall gigs, where, by and large excellent. Probably helped that Jim was married to Frances Line, the controller of the network!!
Yes, one can get good results from a FOH board (given a decent engineer) but, you really do have to do a submix as without audience mics it will sound very empty, but although you need them for the recording, the last thing you want is audience on the PA. ie. splitting the feeds from stage.
Hence the BBCs usage of mobile trucks, All sizes, White vans with a little digi desk up to Sound 1 with an SSL 9000 monster in it!!
The other way is a carry in, about a year before I left, I recorded the CBS Big band Carol concert at the Purcell rooms. (for Late Junction as it happens) Lots of flight cases and split racks in the green room. Took two of us from 8 in the morning to (a de-rig) midnight. Not cheap, and that wasn't even with a truck!!

You might think this a bit over the top, but remember, if you are at a gig, you can see as well as hear. On the Radio, you've lost that extra dimension.
How many of you have been to see a fantastic act live, subsequently bought a CD of the concert, and were dissappointed?

You can just about get away with it for a duo or trio, (acoustic) but, add any electric stuff in, not to mention drums, and you've got a real mess.

I should know, I learnt the hard way!!!

Anyway Dave, Knock'em dead. Let us know when it goes out

Cheers Mate Ralph (BBC retired)

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:29 PM

To steal from another thread.
What about if they broadcast stuff at the wrong time of the year?
I would like a series that visited the right places at the right time and captured the music in its context.
Well dressing,Starry Gazey pie(I know its been done I heard it three times). all the stuff that I know little of and am never likely to see or hear in person.
I would like a prog that only had "new" or original materiel,I would like to hear recordings rescued from wax cylinders.
There are so many things I will never hear.
You go get em Dave anything you acheive will be ok in my book.
There have been odd progs with a dozen versions of the one song or tune also interesting.
I hope no one turns this inot an arguement about what Folk is!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Silver Slug
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:20 PM

Two hours every Monday evening spent in the company of Mick Peat and Lester Simpson reawakened my interest in folk music. The content includes a lot of information, recordings and interviews with local bands, both old and new, as well as a number of weekly 'gig guides' for the counties to which Folk Waves is broadcast, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire etc. The range of music covered is wide, from old Music Hall recordings made by George Formby's dad, to the latest sounds from Martin Simpson and I find this part of the fun as you never quite know what to expect next.

I am convinced that the local radio format is best and helps to keep people in touch with what's happening in their area. It helps that Messrs. Peat and Simpson are superb presenters and much respected performers in their own right. I am now very concerned that Radio Derby might follow the local radio stations and pull the plug on a fantastic show.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,cobra
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:15 PM

First off, it is encouraging that you have been invited to talk on air as a consequence of a complaint. That tells me there may well be a receptive ear at the BBC for proper consideration of the "folk" agenda. Problem is, the definition of what constitutes "folk" would have to reflect a very broad church, with many styles and even more regional inputs.

Your invitation to appear shows, once more, that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. The reality is that there needs to be a bottom-up approach to this as well as top-down. In other words, get in touch with your local BBC viewers/ listeners forum and loby for programming which reflects local music, musicians and events. If that means taking a portable recorder into local venues, so be it. We are blessed with a wealth of local variety and enthusiasm around the place and there is no-one better to big this up than the people who keep music alive on the ground. Yes, mudcatters, this means you!

There is, indeed, some excellent input at national level from the likes of Maconie and Mark whatsisname (is it just me, or does his speech pattern remind anyone else of a young Bruce Forsyth?) and others. R3 and R4 also have their moments. But that is precisely ehat they are.... moments. I would be willing to bet that an upsurge of enthusiastic and informed local input would lead, in fairly short order, to some sort of debate on national programming. And that can only be good for music and the local "folk) arts overall.

Good luck with the discussion.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: stallion
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:14 PM

We tried a live folk session with Michael Brothwell but very little was usable because the audience nattered through all of it, and they were invited performers! However I think he had the right idea with a live set from local performers and a mixture of names and relatively unknowns on cd. I like the idea of a live folk club but not many people are up for keeping quiet for so long, having said that The Black Swan FC manages it...mmmmm.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Jean in Devon
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:02 PM

Singer/Songwriter Johnny Coppin has an hour on a Sunday afternoon on Radio Gloucester. An hour not being long enough as it is an excellent programme.

Jean

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:57 PM

Malc Stent used to be good on Radio Brum - very wide angle vision, and his ear to the ground on the club scene. I really don't know anybody else who has been a patch on Malc. He didn't always like the music he played - for he cast his net wider than his personal taste, but he was always respectful and friendly.

The rest of them are either chatting up stars or riding on hobby horses.

The thing about Malc was that he was part of the scene. Give most folksingers a BBC gig and its like the key to executive washroom and the VIP lounge all in one.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: oggie
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:57 PM

For as long as we want "folk" shows then it will always be in whichever ghetto the BBC needs filling. If "folk music" is music for/of the folk then it should be across all the networks. Don't forget that all the "Peel Sessions" music comes from Radio 1 and I'd love to see it back there. There are complaints that young people are not coming into the folk world (and then complaints when they do) but if you want people to hear the music then it has to be out there in the mainstream music progamming and not in specialist shows.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:45 PM

Indeed..........I was at some of them!!

I reckon now that there is much better equipment around so it might even be a lot less expensive. I would need to take some technical opinions on that.

I understand needle time is not longer an issue - the BBC simply pays a blanket fee to the PRS. (But it occurs to me - how does it then get distributed?)

Hey ho...........Excellent discussion so far.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:43 PM

In this context, Tom Robinson has various members and ex members of Fairport (including Ashley, Simon and RT) in the studio with him tomorrow talking about Liege & Lief on BBC 6 Music (Friday 27th) 7pm-9pm tomorrow. I suspect lots of "folk" folk won't have spotted that if they were looking only at "folk" shows.

Any "quality" argument made by the BBC on outside recordings needing a huge truck is IMO bollocks. There are several rather excellent folk live albums around at the moment that were simply recorded on minidisk straight off the board (just like a bootleg). The BBC mash everything up when they shove it out at only 128mbps on DAB on Mike's show anyway. That's one reason why Late Junction at 192mbps on Radio 3 sounds much better. FM will often sound better than both of course (with the right aerial).

That the BBC can afford to record every bloody prom in perfect quality for broadcast to an audience that is only about twice Mike Harding's and then claim "cost" on folk is one of life's little ironies (and something that should be rebalanced). However, you can get an 80% solution with a minidisk which most people can't tell the difference on. Now I'm sure Smooth Ops markup on sending Mike Harding off with a mini disk might not be quite so high as for sending an army with a truck, but that is no reason why it can't be done.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:42 PM

I think the mix on the old Folkweave was often much better than anything achieved on M Harding.But whether it was either too eclectic or too esoteric for current tastes may also be true. Folkweave, for example, would slip in a 15 minute item on Thomas Hardy's fiddle tunes complete with band playing them. Now, if anyone suggested putting that into a Smoothops M Harding show someone in charge would blow a fuse, it would be considered inappropriate, as Radio 2 audiences are not meant to have heard of Thomas Hardy. Personally, I think it would be fine, but there you go.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: IanC
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:25 PM

Dave

Quality of recordings from live venues didn't seem a problem when the BBC was recording live from folk clubs every week on "Folkweave" in the mid 70s.

That was a really great programme. Had a variety of stuff ... amateur performers, professional club "guests" live, recent records, special articles to go with the seasons or particular traditional singers ... everything.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:15 PM

I suspect the problem with live broadcast is quality.

I have heard live programmes - the Watersons once did a live show from Sheffield, indeed so did Mike Harding. WIth the high production values that the BBC (IMHO rightly) has - it costs a lot of money. Even some live recordings on record - again a Waterson's one do not sound brilliant.

I guess that from clubs it can sound a bit dodgy - hard to get good quality. The carols from Grenoside at Xmas sounded awful, somebody who couldn't hold a tune for love nor money right next to the mike spoiled it. (It was me).

It's for a national showon Radio4. As soon as I get the go-ahead from the producer I will let you know. There are four people involved Me, Rachel, Stan and a Beeb person. I am hoping I get a low profile to be honest they know more than me. And anyway I can be a bit of a media tart.

I think the idea of broadcasting folk on the internet is good, indeed that is where I usually get my fix. But then if that's a success - why bother, making any radio programmes!!

And anyone reading this wants to chat to me indeed and rehearse the arguments at Warwick over a pint - I'll be available!!

But please carry on this is excellent!!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:49 AM

Like the idea of live at folk club type recordings.
Anyone tried it out?
I suppose it would be quite easy to record a"Star turn" in that way but what about using area mics on a part of a venue and getting the atmosphere of a singaround on air

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:48 AM

Sorry 25 minute slot

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:47 AM

Radio Lincolnshire still has a 25 slot on wednesdays with Tom Lane.

I listen to the Mick Peat & lester Simpson (Folkwaves) Mondays and Tom Lane on Wednesdays on the Internet with headphones. That way my family don't keep on having a go at me.

I think the Internet is the way to go as you can listen to whatever you like.

e.g. Britfolk, Myspace, Youtube etc.

Here is one of my favourites, who says men can't multitask. Great respect for this person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuJt6lbt0_g

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:46 AM

Couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:43 AM

Greg has a good starting list list there.

My experience has been that where local "folk" programmes exist they are often a lot better in their coverage of the genre than Mike's show. That many of the local programmes are a couple of hours or longer helps that. Both Radio Wales and Radio Scotland have good programmes in that mold too. The "UK" channels could learn a lot by looking at those.

The other thing not to lose sight of is that the likes of Stuart Marconie and Mark Radcliffe, Johnnie Walker, Tom Robinson, Janice Long, Bob Harris and others all do quite a bit to slip elements of both the more "popular" and "serious" ends of the folk spectrum into their shows. You would be surprised just how much you hear sometimes. Even Terry Wogan more or less had a regular folk slot on the go during the peak of "Sethmania" last year. Of course the sort of folkie that never listens to Radio 2 or Radio 6 in case they might "get contaminated" and find they like "mainstream" stuff never hears that, but it is there.

As for Mike Harding's show, it really should get out more. One show from Cambridge, one show from Celtic Connections and one hour special live concert for whichever folkie has turned 60 or is flogging his "new" box set each year really is taking laziness to an extreme. So let's get a minidisk recorder or two onto the soundboard at a few more festivals and indeed a few live concerts. Most listeners won't be able to tell the difference with the sound from a full mobile studio, especially after it has been mangled by the BBC's DAB compression process. If Smooth Ops don't want to get out more and want to remain in their cowshed, then they should give up at least some of the contract to someone that does.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: peregrina
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:34 AM

Another thought: how about just the way there's a national poetry day when they read aloud little bits of poetry all the time on radio 4, have
a traditional tune day when traditional tunes (excluding Barwick fair)
get played between shows, as part of continuity announcements and the like? This could extend across local radio, plus national.

And what about instead of voting for top philosopher (Melvyn Bragg's contest) favourite invention (today show) and all those others, a trad tune popularity contest?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:34 AM

I would be in favour of a bias towards live performance which is what folk music is all about- either on air or using pre-recorded session or concert recordings from the BBC Transcription Unit, but more interestingly - broadcasts from Folk Clubs, which might get some of them to pull their socks up. Just playing folk records is a waste of time, and talk can be equally boring if it goes on for too long.

As to where on BBC, well I suppose Radio 3 would be good, but heads and brick walls come to mind when squeezing in such a programme at a time when folks are not asleep!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:26 AM

Hey forgot to say there are some interesting Irish ,Scots and welsh folk progs on our cable Telly/Radio.
LOts of stuff about sheep shearing but some beautiful tunes and songs.
No zips on kilts!

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:15 AM

Sorry Dave - I really meant to ask what's the programme that is involving you in their discussion? BBC national or local radio or other?

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:09 AM

Doing it over the telephone from home I guess.

AS far as I am aware and I can stand corrected on this one - "needle time" is what the BBC pays for playing music on the radio. If it is part of a review for example it can be free. Again - as I understand it - a programme will get allocated some needle time (cost) - the rest of the programme has to be made up of other things - reviews which are free of needle time charges and speech based stuff - thus making for a boring folk music programme.

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:04 AM

The Mike Harding show, and Smooth Operations involvement in folk on the radio, has been around long enough. Time to move on, surely.It has got too involved with commercial interests with little or nothing to do with folk. The general thrust of the programme now seems to miss the target, never mind the controversy of last year about "voting" in the Radio 2 competitions.
Radio 3 is probably the right place for specialist programmes.
Radio2 for a user-friendly hour a week, they can still find time for that.
Radio 4 needs more embedded bits, as now but more so. Folk music can fit into countryside, news, food, woman's hour, drama, social commentary etc etc.And Radio 4, perhaps more than 3 or 2, could I think find an hour or half an hour a week for actual British folk(of all ethnic groups) in the old sense(ie traditional performers, archive recordings etc).
Radio 1---probably not, unless people have actual hits like the Pogues and Dubliners used to, in which case play them!
Local stations should each have a folk programme of course, as well as scattering regional music throughout their output.
Well, that's a start. Vernacular art is the bedrock of all else, and for the BBC to ignore it as it does at present is plain stupid. They are quite happy with old farmhouses, old churches, old landscape, old recipes etc etc. So what's wrong with the peoples' music, which is as old as the hills and as young as a new-born baby.?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:57 AM

Local Radio should be the ideal place to have folk programmes - coverage is local enough to include diary dates and give the actual folk clubs a plug where you can go and see live acts. Listen again facilities that are now commonplace over the internet means that anyone can listen wherever they are in the country if they so wish.

The problem is getting station managers who hate music (of any description) to subscribe to this. We've already lost Ali O'Brien, Ali Anderson and Henry Ayrton to changes in management who have their own agenda.

Can someone tell us more about "needle time" please? I know it's the amount of time allowed for broadcasting recorded music but is it applied to everything in copyright or certain labels and how much are you allowed - cost presumably comes into the equation - it always does!

Where are you doing this talk Dave?

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: peregrina
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:45 AM

Folk music being the music of the folk, I'd like to hear it on all radio stations--2, 3 and 4--and in different formats, as music, for its historical and cultural interest, as human interest.--To some extent we already have that--but too little!

Newcastle and York local BBC radio have recently lost their folk programmes.

Late Junction (which often has some nice folk tracks of both current musicians and the real old timers in its eclectic mix) has gotten later and less.

Yet: Radio 4's slots about Folk, whether short bits about performers in Women's Hour, longer pieces (like the 'Singer not the Song' piece on Folk) or coverage of the cultural significance of folk songs seem to get positive reception and often get repeated on 'Pick of the Week'.

Seems to me that radio play of UK Folk Music has some of the same merits as eating local produce rather than stuff flown in from across the globe.

So here's my vote for more of it. And for the return of the local BBC folk shows. (Isn't the BBC supposed to serve communities?)

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:45 AM

I doubt it!!

Dave

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:44 AM

Radio 4 seems to be hearable almost anywhere you go.
I would like to hear anything other than more Mike Harding
He has his place right enough but a different format/approach?
Good luck with the editing,do you get any say in how your comments are used in this?

Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:37 AM

The BBC could do worse than reinstate Henry Ayrtons Real Music Show.

Radio 2 is the obvious choice to pull in the largest audience, as long as Mike Harding, John Leonard and Smooth Operations aren't involved, John Leonard in particular has done the reputation of folk music and honest broadcasting very severe damage.

eric

Subject: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:29 AM

I have been approached to talk on the radio about the lack of folk music on BBC Radio especially local radio. This is a result of me complaining about the closing of the Radio Newcastle Folk Show.

One of the questions I am going to be asked is where I think folk music place should be on the radio dial.

I would be grateful for mudcatters opinions on this - I am doing the recording Monday (Rachel McShane of Bellowhead will be involved too I am given to understand).

Serious answers only.

Radio4 - argument would be most folkies are Radio4 listeners at a guess argument against, it is generally a speech based programme. Would notpick up casual listeners.

Radio3 In favour, specialist music programme area so ideal place. Against - classical music mainly - will probably be on late. Could new listeners find it there?

Radio2 Against already does one show MH - in favour, could be a more specialist show (like it used to be).

Local Radio In favour Stan Ambrose does a great show on Merseyside, (he is being involved also) Mike Peat also on Derby, etc.

Then there is the problem of needle time which will probably come up.

Anyway lets have a friendly discussion on here - arguments where it ought to be and say somewhere please otherwise I will look daft!!

Dave