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Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts

GUEST 27 Jul 07 - 05:35 AM
stallion 27 Jul 07 - 05:43 AM
Mark Dowding 27 Jul 07 - 05:45 AM
greg stephens 27 Jul 07 - 06:01 AM
The Villan 27 Jul 07 - 06:04 AM
Fudged 27 Jul 07 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler 27 Jul 07 - 07:44 AM
Fudged 27 Jul 07 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,Crazy Man Michael 27 Jul 07 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,USA Brit 27 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM
The Sandman 27 Jul 07 - 05:35 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Jul 07 - 06:42 PM
KeithofChester 28 Jul 07 - 05:19 AM
The Borchester Echo 28 Jul 07 - 07:13 AM
Marje 28 Jul 07 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Crazy Man Michael 28 Jul 07 - 12:19 PM
KeithofChester 28 Jul 07 - 12:54 PM
Grab 28 Jul 07 - 07:36 PM
Tim theTwangler 29 Jul 07 - 08:27 AM
greg stephens 29 Jul 07 - 09:22 AM
Tim theTwangler 30 Jul 07 - 01:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 30 Jul 07 - 10:08 AM
Folkiedave 30 Jul 07 - 11:11 AM
Tim theTwangler 30 Jul 07 - 11:39 AM
Folkiedave 30 Jul 07 - 11:56 AM
greg stephens 30 Jul 07 - 12:22 PM
Folkiedave 30 Jul 07 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,USA Brit 31 Jul 07 - 12:24 AM
GUEST,USA Brit 31 Jul 07 - 12:38 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 31 Jul 07 - 12:49 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 07 - 01:36 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 07 - 01:43 AM
KeithofChester 31 Jul 07 - 01:48 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 07 - 02:34 AM
GUEST,USA Brit 31 Jul 07 - 02:35 AM
Folkiedave 31 Jul 07 - 02:41 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 31 Jul 07 - 02:57 AM
KeithofChester 31 Jul 07 - 02:59 AM
GUEST,USA Brit 31 Jul 07 - 03:37 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 31 Jul 07 - 04:07 AM
Bonzo3legs 31 Jul 07 - 04:53 AM
KeithofChester 31 Jul 07 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 01 Aug 07 - 03:02 AM
The Borchester Echo 01 Aug 07 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,USA Brit 02 Aug 07 - 01:05 AM
KeithofChester 02 Aug 07 - 07:33 AM
KeithofChester 02 Aug 07 - 12:04 PM
greg stephens 03 Aug 07 - 09:05 AM
greg stephens 03 Aug 07 - 09:06 AM
Folkiedave 03 Aug 07 - 09:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:35 AM

"Since "Sounds of Folk" was taken off the "new look" Radio Manchester I haven't tuned in at all!"

That's the point, Mark. Radio Manchester's boss can't see the point in catering for people like you and me (or visitors via the internet), who just drop by for an hour a week. We are no great loss to the listening figures.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: stallion
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:43 AM

send the presenter a list of questions you want him/her to ask you, if you script it then they don't have to write an agenda or busk it


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:45 AM

I didn't just listen to the Folk show though - I used to listen to the breakfast show and drive time in the evening in the car, the Rugby League coverage, football coverage (some of us folkies are interested in football), the Parlour, and various other programmes. Now I don't bother.

Cheers
Mark


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:01 AM

I can confirm what Mark Dowding says. The only reason I have started to listen to Radio Stoke occasionally is because I like listening to Genevieve Tudor's excellent Radio Shropshire folk programme, which also goes out on Radio Stoke.She doesn't half play some crap records, but she introduces them so well!
People's loyalty to radio stations adds up slowly, doesnt it? You like one bit, then you get used to some other stuff, eventually you listen all day. I'm a Radio 4 man. Because I actually like the Archhers, Today, Woman's Hour and Desert Island Discs, I am even prepared to listen to all those old farts whining about their pension funds and gallstones all day.Though I draw a line at desperately unfunny things put on at 6.30PM to try out new public school writers and actors.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Villan
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:04 AM

Good idea Stallion

Not sure Dave will be on for a few days as he should be at Warwick me thinks.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Fudged
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:40 AM

Leaving aside all the discussion about who is or isn't capable of delivering a decent folk music program, here's my wee view from not very far north. BBC Radio Scotland seem to serve us quite well IMHO - there are few programs that include folk music, and a few specifically for folk music. I mean folk music in a very broad sense - a lot of it isn't to my tastes. (example - Take The Floor has been running for centuries on Saturday nights, and it's live music every single week. It's Scottish Country Dancing so I can't stand it - but my Dad loves it. )
I think, though, that there's a need for more National Folk music broadcasting and radio 3 would seem to be the natural place. Late Junction and Andy Kershaw do their bit, but anything that isn't classical gets shoved to later (and recently, even later) time slots.
I know a lot of you will think it's an old complaint, but there really is a heavy southern bias on the BBC. This was especially true at the Folk Awards. We had a far too short discussion about this on another forum Folk Awards Discussion ..maybe some people here would like to contribute?
I pay a lot more attention to English folk music now than I did a year or two ago - that's since I started using the BBC's Listen Again service to listen to regional shows. If there were national shows that were able to broaden horizons nationaly I think fans, artists and the folk music community as a whole would all benefit

xx


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:44 AM

I think radio 4 is the place for it. There always will be a documentary aspect to folk music as a subject, even if all the tracks that are played are contemporary, and this means Radio 4 to me. Also it's only Radio 4 and Planet Rock that I have programmed in on my digital radio!
The reason I never listen to Mike Harding is that I'm never reminded that it is on, as it's on Radio 2 and not trailed on Radio 4.
The reason that I have trouble in listening to "The drift" on BBC Radio Lancashire is that it's on the same night as we have the best session for miles around and I'm usually getting all the chores out of the way ready to go out.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Fudged
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 08:04 AM

How do you get black belt in catipillar wrestling? I'm intrigued


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 12:52 PM

Tom Robinson has Richard Thompson, Ashley Hutchings and Simon Nicol with him tonight, Friday, July 27, between 7 and 9pm on 6 Music, discussing Liege & Lief. Rumour also has it that RT will be playing live.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM

Dave, you are fighting a losing battle (unfortunately).

The BBC seem to have drawn their line with pulling out from probably the most known about folk festival after next year - Cambridge.

Given that the festival sells out each year, pulling their support indicates the way that the higher ups in the BBC see things - they don't rate folk.... so it is going.

I miss the atmosphere and new talent of Cambridge since I moved Stateside. It makes me glad that I no longer have to pay a licence fee to a corporation who neglect a thriving musical genre. OK, it doesn't appeal to everyone, but neither does classical music which gets far more airplay....


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:35 PM

I was at school with Tom Robinson,I didnt rate his music then, and I dont now.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:42 PM

I used to like Tom's music in the 70's. 2 great albums and 2468 Motorway and Martin, and glad to be gay, and warbaby - with the live verse about greenham Common. Not too many folksingers were talking about contmporary issues at the time. I also liked his musicianly qualities -the way he moved easily onstage from keyboards to guitar and then bass. Must have seen him 3 or four times. And there was the Gay Cabaret album from Edinburgh. As a dj - he's okay but nothing special.

I like Roy Harris very much. he must have been round here while i was in Brum - listening to Malc.

to be honest folk djs have it tough - there is such diversity in our music - you can't please everyone. I just feel that locally we have produced two world class contemporary artists (Jack Hudson and Roger Brooks) and that their neglect (clubs, festivals and radio) has been total and utterly shameful. Roger is dead now - too late for him.

I can't see why we are still having this debate. the BBC has made its position very clear. if anyone gets on tv; they're going to have a major record contract. if they get on the radio, they once played kazoo with the third line up of Steeleye /fairport in 1968 or leant Roy Harper a packet of Rizlas backstage in the Troubadour the night that Martin Carthy showed Bob Dylan how to play Blowin in the wind.

Its like the Adrian Henri poem about the man who sold human ears fried in batter - he believed ther is room for innovation in the trade. There isn't.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:19 AM

The BBC seem to have drawn their line with pulling out from probably the most known about folk festival after next year - Cambridge.

Where is the information about the BBC stopping their Cambridge sponsorship after next year please?

I think that news could actually be positive. At the moment the BBC heavily over-promote Cambridge at the expense of most of the other folk festivals. If they don't have a festival that is effectively "theirs" they might be a bit more even handed in covering other festivals.

Likewise, those that regularly go to Cambridge won't have to endure fighting for tickets with all those people who assume that Cambridge is the only folk festival because it is the only one the BBC extensively "advertise".


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 07:13 AM

The BBC have been backing Cambridge as if there was no other festival for only the last 4 years. They backed the wrong horse in 2003 after Steve Heap announced that he would no longer be running Sidmouth and this was a factor which probably mitigated against the festival getting any dosh from the council in Devon.

It was announced recently that the BBC would not sponsor Cambridge next year but have not (as far as I have noticed) come out yet in favour of anywhere else. I suppose it will depend on the outcome of the dodgy practice review and whether the Smoothies are still in the loop. One hopes very much not. The Young Folk Award is already suspended. My view, obviously, is that the entire production process should be brought back inhouse. We'll see.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Marje
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 09:53 AM

I agree with your suggested points listed, Dave. What I'd like to see is:
1. Every BBC local radio station having a weekly folk music hour. It would be a natural place for diary events, session reminders, artists on tour in the area, local festivals, etc.

2. At least an hour a week on national radio for English folk and tradtional music. This would be nothing like Mike Harding's show, and would be a completely separate concept and slot. It could be a mix of archive recordings, new recordings from up-and-coming performers, and tracks featuring the best ceildh bands, soloists and groups on the scene, etc. There could be themed programmes for certain times of year or seasonal "specials", or to mark particular events, festivals or anniversaries. This would have to be on Radio 2 or 3, as Radio 4 is intended to be a primarily a speech station.

3. More folk/trad music played alongside other music on Radio 1,2 and 3. Late Junction already give us quite a bit, but there could be more. We don't want or need this music to be ghoettoised.

4. More inclusion of folk music in mainly-speech programmes (Woman's Hour, Loose Ends, music documentaries) on Radio 3 and 4. It happens sometimes but not enough.

Here's a suggestion in preparing for the recording: make yourself a shortlist of 3 main points you want to get in, and for each of them, break it down into 3 ways you could introduce that point. If desperate, just make your points anyway, no matter what you're asked (like politicians do). And have a final soundbite prepared for when you know the recording's coming to and end.

Good luck!
Marje


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 12:19 PM

"I was at school with Tom Robinson,I didnt rate his music then, and I dont now"
Robinson himself I could care less about, it was the fact that Richard Thompson, Ashley Hutchings and Simon Nicol were on the programme discussing Liege and Lief that had me listening


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 12:54 PM

It was announced recently that the BBC would not sponsor Cambridge next year but have not (as far as I have noticed) come out yet in favour of anywhere else.

Thanks Diane, I see it now tucked away on the CFF website. From what I read there the BBC aren't just backing away just from their title sponshorship either, but perhaps the whole sponsorship.

Funnily enough, in the days when the title sponsor was Charles Wells, the BBC used to provide more or less live TV coverage on the actual weekend itself. Since they've been title sponsor and with twice as many TV channels to fill they now seem to need 6 weeks to edit the footage! Last year it even took about 12 weeks.

14/06/07

Opportunity for a new major sponsor for the Cambridge Folk Festival

After a decade of successful sponsorship from BBC Radio 2, including four years as title sponsor, the opportunity has arisen for a new partner to become associated at the highest level, with the highly prestigious and internationally regarded Cambridge Folk Festival, from 2008 onwards.

We would like to thank BBC Radio 2 for their highly valued contribution to the Festival over the past years. BBC Radio 2 have already pledged their broadcast support for 2008 and we look forward to working with them in the future.


http://www.folkfest.entadsl.com/public/ff/news/index.shtml


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 07:36 PM

One question to ask might be how come Radio 2 could sponsor Cambridge and have reasonable coverage there and on TV over the weekend, and then only one hour a week for the rest of the year? This seems to show a conflict of priorities - either the station cares about that genre of music or it doesn't.

If the decision to stop sponsoring Cambridge indicates a change in focus for Radio 2 such that its programming no longer includes folk, it's certainly worth asking which station *will* play folk. We also need to ask where blues, jazz, country, show-tunes, Wurlitzer organ, light classical and all the other specialist "genre" programs on Radio 2 will go - if one genre is axed arbitrarily, which others will follow? Since its foundation as the Light Programme, Radio 2's focus has been to play all genres of popular light music. If this focus is changing, what's the new focus? I don't believe we (the public) have been informed of such significant changes to *our* tax-funded radio stations' programming.

Maybe the BBC could do something with digital radio. If the intention is to set up a "genre" station for these, and leave Radio 2 for light music (Terry Wogan et al) then that would be perfect - no more conflicts of interest. I don't mind it being on digital - but it needs to be *somewhere*.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 08:27 AM

Great thread so far.
Might I just put in a plea that we dont swap the smooth ops veiw of the world for another equaly excusive one.
A prog for folk should maybe take accound of what is managing to get played on the mainstream progs and avoid them?
I mean maybe if there is a new Steeleye single that makes the play list on radio two a folk show could mention that it is available but instead play something by Tom Bliss or Greg (only picked those for example) and change it around every week I stopped listening to MH because of the constant playing of Folky brass band for weeks on end.
and a certain prepoderance of hull based spin of acts.
I enjoy the music but it is already available elsewhere play something different.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 09:22 AM

Tim the Twangler: do you think a new Steeleye single hit is in the offing? Do you know something we don't know? This is 2007, you know.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:14 AM

Hey you never know!
It was an example same as putting you down as the alternative.
If stuff is in the general playlist things I hear about save the time in specialist music progs for different tracks.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 10:08 AM

nah, there can't be a Steeleye Span single coming out - otherwise Radio2 with all those cutting edge street savvy dudes would have been onto it by now.

Actually t'would be nice.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 11:11 AM

Well it is all done and dusted and we wait for the result of the editing now.

I certainly gave them enough to edit down to twenty minutes - even though they probably only want 2.5 minutes!!

Sounds like it might be an interesting slot.

Thanks again for all your help - not only has it been a great example of the power of Mudcat - but I have learnt a lot.

Thanks to all who have replied and fingers crossed.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 11:39 AM

Hey well it was a folky interveiw.
I hope you followed the traditional format?
LOL


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 11:56 AM

Done, folks and thanks for all your support.

An embarrassment of riches she said - let wait and see how well it is edited!

I am very sincere in thanking everyone on Mudcat and if you hear the programme I hope you feel that I have reflected your views.

Some of you should certainly recognise them!

One last thing - I have now complained to Feedback twice this year and each time my point has been taken up and broadcast.

Someone out there is listening. Get complaining.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 12:22 PM

I think I've lost track of this thread. So, what programme is it, and when does it go out? Can we have an update?


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 07:27 PM

Well, I was looking for Feedback which is a BIG clue!!

Dave


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:24 AM

KeithOfChester - glad you found the link, I was away so unable to reply.

I tend to disagree though that their lack of sponsorship will benefit other folf festivals, it will to all intense and purposes remove their involvement with folk and drive it further from peoples minds.

Without radio or other media coverage, folk will struggle. Word of mouth between advocates does not reach the masses required.I have no doubt most of the folk bands will continue (providing they make ends meet) because they love the music and culture, as do I.

You mention other folk festivals and yes - I know and have been to some of them, but Cambridge was the only one that really got covered.

I think that the BBC is being negligent in it's message of bringing not only mainstream to the airwaves (be it tv or radio) but minorities as well. We HAVE TO PAY the licence fee, which funds them. Minorities are not just classical or opera lovers.....oh, but hang on - the people who decide like that sort of stuff......

Put part of the Worldwide Service Budget (for radio) into folk for the people who pay for it. There would probably be more listeners....

The Mary Blacks, Saw Doctors, Oysterband (et al) will continue,but without exposure then where does the next generation come from?


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:38 AM

FolkieDave - is there any chance you can get the final broadcast recorded and available? Little chance of me hitting it here in the USA :(


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:49 AM

Hi GUEST USA Brit
I'm pretty sure that Dave is talking about"Feedback" on BBC Radio 4.
Transmission times
Friday 1330
Repeated Sunday 2000
(UK times)
Also it's available on the Beebs Listen again facilty on their website, for a week.
Hope that helps
Ralph


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:36 AM

Ah, thanks Ralph.

Found the link, suppose it depends on when it is aired....


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:43 AM

or then again - maybe not.....

We are currently experiencing technical problems with listen again streams on the BBC Radio Player.

We regret that many programmes are not available. We are working to restore normal service as quickly as possible.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:48 AM

I tend to disagree though that their lack of sponsorship will benefit other folk festivals, it will to all intense and purposes remove their involvement with folk and drive it further from peoples minds.

In the days before BBC Radio 2 became the "headline sponsor" of Cambridge, they used to also record and broadcast live concerts from Sidmouth week. Back in 2002 they were still sponsoring the Ham Marquee at Sidmouth and it was emblazoned with BBC Radio 2 banners. However, inside the venue they had NO recording equipment and indeed they had none up at the (then) main Arena venue either. ALL the practical effort had been switched to Cambridge. They did make an effort at Sidmouth the next year, which was the 40th Cambridge and the 50th Sidmouth. Out of which came both a TV and a radio show. However, they haven't recorded at a folk festival than than Celtic Connections or Cambridge since as far as I know.

What will now happen for the rest of the summer will be Mike Harding will do his post-Cambridge "special" and then go off on holiday and Smooth Ops will pump out a few pre-records for the rest of the summer. They probably knocked up the coming Kate Rusby Special to (effectively) help her advertise her new album while at Cambridge. As always Cropredy and every other festival in August will be ignored, in the same way as both Warwick Folk Festival and the (cancelled) Nantwich Acoustic Festival were ignored last weekend. Yes they did "advertise" Saul a weeks ago, but only after it had been cancelled for several days.

Now, whether the BBC do or don't do anything with any cash they save from Cambridge is entirely another matter. If they shared it round, it could do some good. If they just throw it at eg Jonathan Ross then it won't. But I don't really see why one specific folk festival an hours drive from London and one in Glasgow get all the licence payers money every year while every other one gets zero.

The funny thing is, as is often the case, it is hard to find many that claim to like folk that actually listened to much of what the BBC broadcast from Cambridge this year. Conversely quite a few of Stuart Maconie's more generalist music fans might have heard a few artists they might not normally have, and that probably did do some good. Dermot O'Leary even discovered Joan Baez on Stuart's handover to him. To be fair I didn't know much Joan Baez material when I was Dermot's age either.

Still, given that various worthies from Fairport Convention were on Tom Robinson for the best part of 2 hours on Friday, and that only I here have admitted to listening to any of it, and I fell asleep during part of it, that might be why the BBC doesn't think anyone listens to "folk". Someone on Talkawhile mentioned that they had listened to it all though...


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:34 AM

Get real Keith, pulling from the Cambridge Folk Festival is a money saving exercise.

That money will NOT get put into folk elsewhere, it will go into the "black hole" ......

I agree they avoided a lot of the nations folk festivals, but they must have done something right in that Cambridge got me "involved". I never said Cambridge was the holy grail, but it is the most attended/best known world wide.

It will still sell out in days when the BBC withdraw for 2009 because it is "Cambridge".

This year iirc, the beeb are doing 4 1/2 hour excerpts sometime in September on the radio. Big difference from tv.

They will probably cover the headline acts, so how do the newcomers get seen?

My point throughout has been - the beeb are supposed to reflect minorities, we deserve as much time for folk as classical or opera (for instance). The beeb say as much each time they ask to increase the licence fee - we cater for all. Some (classical/opera) seem to get a better spread though, but then that is more in tune with the policy makers preffered choice.....


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:35 AM

Sorry, that is my post above as guest.....


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:41 AM

We HAVE TO PAY the licence fee, which funds them.

Never paid a licence fee in my life.

Radio is free of fees and I don't have a TV.

Ralph is correct of course - now that it is done - Feedback Radio 4 1330 Friday Repeated Sunday.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:57 AM

To add to what Keith has said.
Re Sidmouth you are quite right.
It was crewed by a Birmingham team of OB engineers and Studio Managers (The prog was produced in Brum at the time), and they normally used SCV6 (a very large truck with an SSL desk in it, watching it park behind the cinema was always a laugh!).
Some years the programme was even broadcast live from the cinema, with some pre-recorded items between the live acts.
As the whole operation was "In-House" so to speak, all the gear needed came free, the only expenses being salaries for staff etc.
Then along came John Birt and "Producer Choice", trying to turn the Beeb into an open market, meaning that a Producer had to pay money from his yearly budget to other depts to get things done, studio time, OB vehicles, records from the record library, even pronunciation Unit! All the money was "virtual" of course, but beware going over budget!
Completely ludicrous idea I know, but it meant cutbacks for all programme makers, and stifled creativity.
At the same time it was decided that a percentage of programmes had to farmed off to the independent sector.
Jim Lloyd and his producer Geoffrey Hewitt, were coming up for retirement, and therefore Smooth Operations took over the Folk and Country slots on Radio 2.
But, they still had to pay for any BBC equipment they used, (Hard Cash this time), and although I recorded the Ham for a week in 1998, it was deemed to be too expensive to continue.
They still tried to cover parts of Sidmouth for a couple more years using (I think) an ex Radio York transit van, and a freelance engineer, but, when the Cambridge sponsorship deal came along, they obviously felt that would have the bigger audience draw.
You always have to bear in mind that if Smooth Ops don't get listeners, they lose the franchise. Hence playing safe with the playlists on MH's show, and covering CFF.
Producer Choice at the Beeb has been quietly dropped now, but, the Independent sector is very much still there (Feedback itself is an Indie!!)
So, while while these Indies have control over various sectors of the Beebs output, they will play safe.
You may ask why then the minority sations on digital?
1 Xtra, BBC7 (speech based), The Asian network?
Partly to help push digital along, and partly as a sop to the government, saying that we are fulfilling are public service remit, by catering for the black and asian communities.
Before we get a Folk station, they have got to cater for a Muslim network first (Don't think thats very likely in the circs)
Anyway until analogue switch off, there isn't enough bandwidth to go around.
Enough ramblings for now, but, I hope all this helps a bit
Cheers Ralph


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:59 AM

This year iirc, the beeb are doing 4 1/2 hour excerpts sometime in September on the radio. Big difference from tv.

No, those Cambridge programmes in September are on TV, on BBC 4. The radio coverage has been going on various shows over the weekend and finishes with the Mike Harding show this Wednesday.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 03:37 AM

FolkieDave - no agree, if you don't have a tv you don't pay a fee,all others do which is where the beeb get their money from for both tv and radio. You are a minority though paid for by the rest of the licence payers.

Keith - oh my I am wrong (tv/radio),guess that is human - what's your excuse?

Ralphie is right in that all other channels will have to be done before folk (and paid for by the great british taxpayer).

Remind me when analogue gets shut off?

Until then the beeb should cater for all as is their mandate.....


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:07 AM

Re analogue switch Off in the UK.
Well Tv will start next year, and gradually be rolled out across the country by 2012. (you can imagine the howls of protest as peoples TVs go blank!!)
Radio on the other hand is more difficult.
Most people have several, including in the car, and at the moment there aren't many DAB car radios around, and the ones there are ars hellishly expensive.
So, I don't think a decision has been made about that.
R


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:53 AM

There was folk on BBC6 last Friday in Tom Robinson's show - a few live songs from Richard Thompson and a little discussion re Liege & Lief with Ashley & Simon joining. But no coverage of Cropredy you say - to say nothing of the warm up gigs at the Mill, Banbury which usually sound a lot better!


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:46 AM

"1 Xtra, BBC7 (speech based), The Asian network?
Partly to help push digital along, and partly as a sop to the government, saying that we are fulfilling are public service remit, by catering for the black and asian communities.
Before we get a Folk station, they have got to cater for a Muslim network first (Don't think thats very likely in the circs)"


An interesting related piece of news. The BBC trust embarking on a "public value assessment" of a Gaelic language digital service.

BBC Press Release


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:02 AM

Keith.
Very interesting. Odd that one minority of these islands is being considered for a network of their own, no problem with that, but, yet again, nothing for English music (or Jazz, or lots of other things!!)
And what's a "Public Value Assessment" when it's at home? Sounds like Birtspeak to me!!
Ralph


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:17 AM

This is the Public Value Test. It is available in Welsh too, though not in Gaelic. Shame.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: GUEST,USA Brit
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 01:05 AM

Keith, if you take the time to read the links you posted and think about the BBC remits then folk music is being badly represented.

Folk music is a national heritage across the English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish. As such it should get coverage.

Opera and classical get more TV coverage on the Beeb than folk - why? Probably because that is the things that wannabe ministers/councillors/high-ups like to be seen preening at. They love the snob value. Without researching I don't believe the Arts Council puts much into folk music, but they certainly do into the other two, oh and add ballet to that list.

I don't disagree with the Asians, Blacks or whatever minority getting coverage, but at least give the same privelage to a home-based movement.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:33 AM

Odd that one minority of these islands is being considered for a network of their own, no problem with that, but, yet again, nothing for English music (or Jazz, or lots of other things!!)

Exactly.

Quite why that perceived "need" came so far up the BBC Management's list of priotities for new services is an interesting one.


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: KeithofChester
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 12:04 PM

Quite why that perceived "need" came so far up the BBC Management's list of priotities for new services is an interesting one.

Especially given that BBC Management already had this alternative proposal for a new "specialist music" network in front of them. I can't understand why the BBC Trust isn't already out there finding the "public value" of our brainchild. I guess we didn't charge them big enough consultancy fees for our efforts over those few days or give them any fake footage with which to make idiots of themselves.

BBC Radiate


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 09:05 AM

Hey, great clever remark about "finger in the ear" old-style folk. Are these presenters so witty they can think of these comments for themselves? Or is there perhaps a BBC House Style Book, written by some latter-day Oscar Wilde, which makes it obligatory for this to be said on all programmes that refer to folk music?


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 09:06 AM

I should have said I was referring to the recently transmiited Feedback programme, not any posts on this thread!


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Subject: RE: Lack of Folk Music on BBC - thoughts
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 09:15 AM

I thought it was Ok. Remember I recorded a good ten minutes of material and the bits they used I was delighted with. I thought Rachel McShane was brilliant and so was Stan Ambrose.

Maybe I am easily pleased but that was a pretty good piece of radio IMHO. They got away from the usual format "person makes complaint and BBC suit replies" and it was all the better for it. Well appreciative of Bellowhead. Good.

The bits I said at the end about the BBC remit was straight from the BBC core values.


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