The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?

Subject: The Morris Ring
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 02:33 PM

does anyone know, the present health of this organisation.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 02:47 PM

I found them to be a highly biggoted organisation indeed.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: gnomad
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 02:50 PM

I no longer dance myself, but their Website looks to be being kept current.

Do you have something making you uncertain, Captain?

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: LesB
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 02:53 PM

Apart from the fact that it's the last haven for misogamists, it's ticking along O.K. I think. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Last year Brian Tasker (who has a more liberal viewpoint)unfortunately failed in his attemt to get elected Squire. But it's only a matter of time before the enevitable happens & they have to moderise. (At present we cannot dance at a ring meeting owing to the fact that we have a female musician). Not that I personally would want to (they are very expensive weekends).
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: MBSLynne
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 03:24 PM

You mean misogynists not misogamists Les

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 03:28 PM

The proliferation of 'Mere Females' dancing morris must be causing them a lot of concern ! The saddest thing is that a lot of the girls are better dancers than a lot of the blokes !

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 04:12 PM

Indeed they are!

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 04:34 PM

Blimey, I thought that, like the dinosaurs, they had been wiped out years ago.
A bit like finding a real live Ceolacanth.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: LesB
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 04:40 PM

Lynne, "You mean misogynists not misogamists Les", That's microsoft spell checker for you.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Surreysinger
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 04:55 PM

And Ralphie means Coelacanth - just got the first two letters round the wrong way!!!
But Lynne .. for all we know Les might have been right ... a misogamist is a hater of marriage ... who's to say that members of the Ring are not also misogamists ???

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:01 PM

they appear to hate women morris dancers,and women morris musicians.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:09 PM

You raise an interesting, and quite conventional point, Cap'n(or may I call you Dick?). But is it necessarily a fair point?
My partner(who is female) runs a women's community choir. Does that, of itself, make her and her colleagues men-haters? The fact that Morris Ring types have reasons, whether personal or historical(erroneous or not), to dance in male groups surely doesn't actually prove they hate women doesa it|?
(I grind no axe here, I've never danced the morris with men, ladies or green lizards).

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 06:59 PM

Greg
I believe that "The Morris Ring" scorn any sort of contact with green lizards or indeed any other reptiles. My own team (The Bonny Green Garter-Snakes) was refused entry on these grounds. One of our dancers is a slow-worm, which as you will know is actually a legless lizard, indeed most of the other dancers often appeared legless. The Lord of the Ring voted against our application citing the obvious kinship to newts after exposure to beer.
At the moment we are keeping a close eye on the Ring - we have appointed a "monitor lizard" who is having a close gecko at their activities. I find it turtley unacceptable.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: LesB
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 07:30 PM

Martin, when you have you day of dance ceilidh, do you have "The Geckos" or "The Gloworms" to play?
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 08:16 PM

Les
We usually have a stand-up chameleon for a warm up and, after a few pints of snakebite, experience has tortoise that a few songs go down well - "To be a Farmer's Boa"; "Come Landlord Fill the Flowing Boa"; "I'll Fathom the Boa" etc.
We usually book a good sceilidh (say it out loud) band and finish off with the conga.
martin

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 11:09 PM

You can still find live coelacanths, BTW.

Today is market day in Armidale and I was fascinated to see one of the local (Northeastern Asian) martial arts clubs doing a display of their activities. By the look of their swords (long and short but all wooden) they were Japanese but they used long staff techniques as well. At various points they lined up (three facing three) and, to the calls of their leader (mostly "Hai!" but there were other utterances too) they performed what must be described as Japanese Morris. They had no hobby horse and, unfortunately, no music or musician; thankfully there were no bells of any sort. I felt inspired to write some haiku and pull out the concertina (which I'd left at home) but was too slow. I suspect they wouldn't have understood the cultural reference anyway.

And, do you know? Their best performer was a woman! So I guess they could never be part of the Morris Ring.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Lester
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 03:38 AM

As far as I can tell it's a group of like minded blokes who want to do what they want to do. There seems to be another group of people who want to join in but don't agree with with the way the first group wants to do it, so why do they want to join in. The Ring wants to be men only the Fed and Open are happy to accept women, men, children etc, so why do people insist the Ring needs to be change?

Not that I care particularly as I no longer attend Ring events as they are too expensive. The other reasons to be members, insurance etc is a cross-organisational.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: MBSLynne
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:05 AM

It's why a lot of morris sides have, in recent years, joined what was "The Women's Morris Federation" and is now, I believe "The Morris Federation".

As a female ex-garland dancer I was horrified when a couple of Ring Morris sides wouldn't even dance out with us on pub tours because we were women. If they don't want women in their Morris sides that's fair enough, but I can see no good reason for them to refuse to dance out with women's sides even though the women aren't dancing morris. Seems like carrying things too far to me.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:19 AM

so a lot of Morris sides have joined the Morris federation,This might indicate The Morris Ring has lost some members,and is not in as good state of health[Mermbership wise] as it was.
looks like if the trend continues,eventually, it will become to weak to exist.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Surreysinger
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:37 AM

""To be a Farmer's Boa"; "Come Landlord Fill the Flowing Boa"; "I'll Fathom the Boa" etc"

Martin - what's the obsession with feathery neckwear? Is it the latest Morris gear??
Slithers off in haste ....

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Baggins 360
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 08:57 AM

The Morris Ring can dictate all they like about Cotswold Morris but not NorthWest Morris. Women and boys have danced since after the First World War because most of the NW sides were decimated and the Dance Masters taught Women and Boys so the NW tradition wouldn't be lost. Mind you the bloody Morris Ring and Dear Old Mister Sharpe don't/didn't really consider NW Morris a traditional dance form basically because it didn't fit their/his Rural Picture. How many NW dances did our Cecil collect on his way up the country? NONE that's how many, he got to Cheshire, Saw the Smoke and gave Lancashire a complete bloody body swerve! So women dancing Cotswold is bound to get then hot under the Hankie!

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 09:19 AM

They can dictate all they like about anything they like, as far as I am concerned. Whether we take that dictation is another thing.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: MBSLynne
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 09:49 AM

It depends, I think, on whether you are into 'glass case' folk of an evolving folk tradition. I do believe it's necessary to record and to some extent continue morris and other follk traditions as they were, but it has to allow for the evolution of folk as well. Morris may have been a ritual thing done at certain times of year for certain reasons, though no one is completely sure about what and why. However, these days though morris sides dance particularly on certain days to continue the traditions, mostly morris and other dance types are done because people enjoy them and want to dance. If women enjoy dancing morris, why shouldn't they? Ok, it may not be traditional, but why should that be a good reason for them not to do it?

This is purely academic as I have no desire at all to dance Cotswold Morris but I see no good reason why other women shouldn't if they want to. "An it harm none, do what you will"

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 01:00 PM

Well, the Morris Ring want to do things their way, and other people want to do it differently. Fine for all concerned isn't it? Where is the problem?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 01:24 PM

It doesnt appear to be fine for all concerned,.
which is why Morris sides have left the Morris ring and joined the Morris federation.
Here is a hypothetical example,two peopleof the opposit sex who cohabit together, and have also the same intersts in Morris dancing,can not dance together because of the morris rings attitude.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: LesB
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 03:05 PM

My wife & I both dance, I for a ring side (sword team) her for a Fed side (N/W). We don't particularly want to dance together, neither do I particularly want my side to be mixed.
But when the team are invited to a ring, or ring type do, my feeling is that if it's not good enough for my wife to attend, then it's not good enough for me. So I wont go to weekends where wifes are excluded from 'The Feast'.
I have actually been told thet "it's o.k. for wifes to come on the weekend, but they can't come to the evening event" (feast). So I didn't go.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Marje
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 03:20 PM

What I find far from fine is when, as Lynne points out, some Ring sides will not even dance at or attend an event when other mixed or female sides are attending. That, to me, is an unacceptable and insulting attitude towards others who dance the morris. There's no parallel here with, say, choirs, who generally enjoy hearing other choirs with a different gender profile and sharing big musical events together.

I'm not sure quite what answer Dick was hoping for when he asked the question, but it would not trouble me at all to learn that the Ring sides were declining in popularity and on their way to social extinction. Unless they change their attitudes, that's what they deserve.

Marje

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 03:48 PM

This is really all very old news. Don't mistake the attitudes of individuals for those of organisations. If an individual team chooses not to dance with another, that is up to its members; the Ring is just an umbrella organisation and has, so far as I know, no rules concerning that. It merely restricts its membership to all-male teams. Who does or doesn't get invited to dinner afterwards is presumably a decision made by the individuals organising the event.

Morris isn't my subject, though inevitably I know a lot of people of both sexes who are involved in it. Dick may find the following helpful in forming an opinion based on what is going on today rather than a quarter of a century ago:

The Morris Ring was founded in 1934, the original member teams being all from the Revival. The Women's Morris Federation was founded in 1975. In 1980 it decided to admit mixed as well as women-only teams, and in 1982 became open to all. 'Women's' was dropped from the name in 1983. Meanwhile (1979), a third organisation, Open Morris, was founded to counter the single-sex policies of the other two.

All three organisations continue in, so far as I know, perfectly good health; and on perfectly good speaking terms with each other. As (again, so far as I know) the only national organisation until 1975, the Ring naturally lost members to Open Morris and, later, the Federation; but over the last 20 years everything seems to have settled down and I doubt if there is a lot of movement of membership between the three.

Given that ceremonial dance teams (whatever they dance) typically have a quite short lifespan and I would guess (though others will have to confirm or deny that guess) that the majority of teams currently dancing were founded less than 20 years ago in any case, then if they have joined any of the umbrella organisations, they will probably have gone directly to whichever one best suited them (or may indeed be attached to more than one).

http://www.themorrisring.org/

http://www.morrisfed.org/

http://www.open-morris.com/

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 04:16 PM

If anyone can provide details of the Morris rings membership 20 YEARS AGO,and its membership today,I might get an answer.
Malcolm your statement[I doubt if there is a lot of movement of membership between the three]is uninformed guesswork ,If it isnt and you are well informed,I would appreciate your time in passing on these membership figures.
Marje,I agree with you,but would go further and say that I enjoy seeing women dancing the morris,and mixed morris sides,and men dancing the Morris,if the dancers are good dancers.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: melodeonplayer
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:35 PM

I wanted to say "what a load of ill-informed bollocks" but i really can't be arsed!!!!!are

Simon Care

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Alan Day
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:48 PM

I had to contact the Morris Ring about six months ago with regards to recordings by a particular concertina artist thay have the rights for.
Firstly I found initial communication very difficult, the link above would have been very useful, but I went down many routes before I managed to get the contact number and proper Email address. I found the organisation very helpfull ,very cooperative and willing to offer advice.I will be in touch with them again in the future.
Al

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: melodeonplayer
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 06:05 PM

Sorry, maybe i can be arsed.

The Morris Ring is just an umbrella organization that decides to have "men only sides". - Get over it!!!
Mens Sides with female musicians are allowed membership.
Ring sides are not forbidden from dancing out with womens sides.

If i wanted to start an organization for Morris sides aged between 16 and 40 then would it be any different......I think not.

All three morris organizations work very well together on many aspects and even ran a joint day of dance this year . I was there with my team, Moulton and we danced out with many good teams from all three groups.

cheers
simon care

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: LesB
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 06:40 PM

Simon, correct me if i'm wrong, but ring sides with female musicians can't attend ring meetings, (unless they leave their musician at home).
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:26 PM

Well, Dick; if you are already sufficiently informed to pronounce upon the accuracy or otherwise of my guess (you have, after all, made plenty of your own), then you didn't really need to start the thread, did you? I'd suggest that you contact the relevant organisations directly if you want a detailed breakdown of their membership figures over the last 20 years. I have provided links to their websites; you can find contact details there. Do let us know what they have to say, won't you. It would be mildly interesting, though whether it would be as gratifyingly controversial as you seem to hope remains to be seen.

Meanwhile, all three websites have lists of current member and associate teams that you can look at if you are interested. That won't tell you much about the state of play 20 years ago, when many of those teams didn't exist, but you may find it easier to start at the present and work back rather than the other way around. Remember that a lot of teams are started up by young enthusiasts and fold after a few years as work and family responsibilities (not to mention health and fitness issues) intervene, so a proper statistical analysis will require quite a lot of work. I'm sure that it would be a useful exercise if you are up for it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 04:39 AM

Simon Care, MBS lynne,has given example of morris ring sides refusing to dance out with a woman garland side.
They may not be forbidden,but the attitudes of some of their members[Lynnes example] Indicates a lot.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 04:42 AM

DID YOU KNOW that an anagram of "Prime Minister Gordon Brown" is "Tepid, worn, boring morrismen"?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: IanC
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:22 AM

Relations between the 3 organisations are actually pretty good.

From the point of view of insurance, they do things jointly anyway.

The ring will eventually go co-ed ... there's just a few old farts resisting it at the moment. The Ring sword team I dance with ocassionaly dances with women dancers in the set (and Rapper is a bit of a contact sport).

I agree with Malcolm that all 3 organisations thrive pretty well. I doubt many new sides will join the ring though until they change their rules.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:38 AM

Malcolm,thankyou for your help.
IanC,Thankyou for your information.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 06:08 AM

We're really talking about two different things here.....the rules and regs and health of the Morris Ring, and the attitudes of individual sides and individual dancers. Personally I think there's room for all and they should accept each other's decisions and preferences as far as membership of their sides goes.

Simon you're right about the age thing. The side with which my son dances used to be very dubious about dancing out with women's sides but had little choice, since the garland side I danced with was formed of and by their wives! Nowadays said morris die has become a lot younger, on average with many of the members aged between 15 and 30. They have also become noticeably less bothered by the women thing.

Love Lynne
Just a quci thought....though there is no actual restriction, as far as I know, on men dancing with women's sides, I'm not sure it would be great to have men in garland sides! To each his own.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 06:21 AM

MBSLynne

I'm not sure it would be great to have men in garland sides!

Really?

http://www.coconutters.co.uk/photoalbum2/gallery.htm

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 06:56 AM

Anyone want to see the true face of Morris Dancing.

Go and watch Greg and Derek Wood at the Jig competition at Sidmouth.

Fantastic father and son duo. (Father cycles the Tour de France hill climbs for a hobby and won Mortimer's "Oaken Thigh" competition).

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Bernard
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 06:59 AM

For what it's worth... members of Bolton Folk Dance club and 'Haywain' ceilidh band were amongst those who re-formed Horwich Prize Medal Morris Men in the early 1970s, and their wives/partners were miffed about not being able to join.

A women's garland team was formed as something of a protest, which went on to become Rivington Morris - who founded the Women's Morris Federation.

As I was a member of Haywain, and we played for their first appearances during some of our ceilidhs, so I suppose I'd qualify as being one of their first musicians...!

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Redwing
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 07:40 AM

Only a couple of years ago I witnessed a women's NW team - and a very, very good one from the North West itself who have already been mentioned - subjected to some extreme rudeness from a men's "North West" team from the midlands who were Ring stalwarts with a very anti women stance. I was appalled at this, it did morris no good at all.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Jess A
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:30 PM

As said I think elsewhere in the above thread, there seem to be a fair few individuals and/or individual sides who are anti-women dancing the morris (I've been on the receiving end of this a few times but, to be fair, not often, while dancing with Pecsaetan).

The Morris Ring itself as an organisation certainly doesn't seem to have a problem the whole thing in my experience - although we are an all female Cotswold side they've been helpful, supportive, and downright complimentary when we've had contact with them. And so for that matter have all the Ring sides we've ever had anything to do with. We've danced out with lots of them at different events and they've pretty much all been lovely and friendly too.

I wish I could understand what the individuals who are against women dancing are objecting to, but I've never had a discussion with anybody about it where I could detect much of a thread of logic in their argument, and when it comes down to it I can't bring myself to care that much. I love the morris and I'm going to carry on dancing it regardless.

I am awaiting Bromyard with a certain degree of amusement, where, to my knowledge, Pecsaetan will be the first women's cotswold side ever to dance at the festival. Hope we'll go down well.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:39 PM

I agree about Bromyard - indeed Annie Smith of Sheffield City Morris was probably the first female member of a Morris team ever to do Bromyard and that was not all that long ago. They were not sure whether to give her a ticket or not because she was female and part of a morris team. (Drummer).

And I understand you also are going in for the jig competition!! Good luck to you and your musician whoever he may be.

Now, how are you about all-male punk rock heavy thrash metal bands?

Should they not allow women in? :-)

Dave

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: ClaireBear
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM

I've often thought, if there weren't already an adequacy of morris confederations, it might be fun to start one for mixed teams called "The Morris Mõbius" -- whose slogan would be, of couse, "We're all on the same side."

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Jess A
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM

hehe I think if the boys want to play I'd rather watch from a safe distance :) and dance of course!

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Greg B
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 02:06 PM

Sounds to me as if some of the lads place authenticity over
having a bit of crumpet with their ale.

Misplaced values.

I once squeezed out some tunes for an all-female Morris
side which was quite keen to have male musicians.

Scheduling conflicts prevented a long-term relationship
with the side, whose musicians seemed none the less to be
'tired but happy.' Nutting girls and all.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 03:30 PM

Viewed from the perspective of performance rather than politics or promiscuity (which, to be honest, I might, if my memory serves me, prefer) there is a definite difference in the way most women's border sides that I have seen dance from the the way the men's sides dance. The former tend to go "tap tap" politely whereas the latter tend to display more of the hooligan aggression that goes with sexual competition (which is what is being ritualised, isn't it?) in the whacking of their sticks.

But there again few garland dancers convey the idea of the come-hither display that I believe to be the heart of garland (well, what do you thing the hoops with the little red bow at the top middle are supposed to symbolise?) and perishing few female Irish dancers convey the curiously Roman Catholic tension between restraint and sexual display that sems to me to be the key to their art.

And I think I've only ever seen one molly dancer who conveyed the insanity and threat (something about the unrecognisable in confrontation with the unforgivable), the ranting psychotic nature of that form. You sometimes see it in the eyes of the kings for a day in the urban street, up on speed and feeling invincible until the comedown. You don't often see it in dancers concentrating on their steps and moves. The information that follows is second hand so I hope it is right. Oddly, he was an East Anglian lad, of several generations, in a side mostly composed of students or recent graduates. He alone in the side had not been to university and I strongly felt that he alone was in touch with genuine roots..

That's the trouble with traditions, the aspic can get in the way of the true flavour....

Or was it the true flavour?

In case you were wondering, I'm sober.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 04:30 PM

I once played electric guitar for a morris side at a morris ring day in 1985 or so. I received many bigotted looks and comments - quite uncalled for.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 04:51 PM

I went on a course on teaching folk dance some years ago, and failed to have a discussion about two issues. One was women's morris. I was told, shortly, that women have their own ceremonial dances. I was not given any information about how to get in touch with any groups doing them.

The other was having boys dancing together in folk dances, which was verboten, without explanation. As it is stated in the books of the EFDS on the subject, the reason is obvious. Not to me, with a class overheavy on the male side, doing the sort of dances which down't demand delicate hand holding.

The people concerned couldn't see the paradox.

Then they taught all of us a sword dance of the knot forming variety.

Penny

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:04 PM

morris ring has approx 152 members,open morris has approx 92 members,the morris federation has approx 405 members,so 497 sides do not wish/[or are excluded from] to be in the morris ring.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM

"the hooligan aggression that goes with sexual competition (which is what is being ritualised, isn't it?) in the whacking of their sticks."

I'm glad somebody has raised that subject at last. Yes, there is a lot of that, especially in Border morris but in Cotswold too, when it's done right, and I have heard females express the opinion that there's something about morris done well by fit young men that creates an excitement that just doesn't happen with women doing it. You can't ignore that aspect. (Women dancing Swaggering Boney? does not compute)

Because of that, it's important that some good all-male sides remain, though I doubt that many Morris Ring teams have got the right stuff any more, unless they have succeeded in recruiting a lot more younger dancers.

An example: Hammersmith Morris Men were in the ring, until they got thrown out for reasons I won't detail here, except to say they were carrying the time-honoured tradition of misrule a bit too far for the Ring's delicate sensibilities. But they remain an all-male side, because they know that if you have a mixed team you tend to recruit more and more women and fewer men, and you end up with an all-female team if you're not careful, because your average young English bloke doesn't want to dance at all anyway and thinks it's "girly". But if you have an all male team and you dance well and with enough masculine vigour you can recruit young men, and Hammersmith did regularly, because they can make it look good in a macho and blokish sort of way. A few years ago I was going to practices and danceouts with Hammersmith Morris for while, and and I know how much effort they put into their practice sessions, not to mention the post-practice drinking. The epitome of "work hard, play hard" - and I found it bewildering, exciting and exhausting.

Now, it's not that Hammersmith disapprove of women dancing morris - they like nothing better than to invite female and mixed teams to their pub tours and dancing weekends, far more fun for obvious reasons... but they prefer to keep their own dancing as men's stuff, and nobody accuses them of prancing about like fairies, not even when dancing Adderbury Sweet Jenny Jones.

(disclaimer: I haven't seen Smiffs recently. I may be out of date - I hope they haven't got old and decrepit in the last 10 years)

Anahata
(by the way, do any men do belly dancing? I just wondered....)

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: LesB
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:39 PM

Most of us now have bellies that dance of their own accord.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Jess A
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 05:37 AM

"and I have heard females express the opinion that there's something about morris done well by fit young men that creates an excitement that just doesn't happen with women doing it. "

absolutely agree. I love dancing morris and think there's room for everybody to do it whatever way they can, but if I'm in the audience then I'd rather watch a fit men only side than a women's side however good. Sides which currently spring to mind for cotswold are Dog Rose, Hammersmith, and Bristol...
....but I'd rather watch a good women's team or a good mixed team than a half arsed bunch of fat old men ambling around & not getting off the ground, naming no names :)

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: MBSLynne
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:12 AM

Yep, I agree too. There's definitely something intrinsically masculine about some morris dances and the way some sides dance them....and very nice too. As I said before, there's room for both, or all. Nor do I think any individual side should be forced to accept the opposite sex into their side. We need some all-male sides, we need all-female sides and if people enjoy dancing with mixed sides, then we need them too. There's surely no good reason that the different types can't perform in the same places at the same time though?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:13 AM

I'm not sure that membership numbers is the same thing as health. If those teams that are members support the aims and philosophy of the organisation, attend events and enjoy each other's company etc is it not healthy?

If we're talking about the Ring's attitude to women dancing, which we seem to be, as a member of two NW women's teams I have noticed over the last few years a softening of attitude and Ring sides enjoying the company of groups of all types from the other two organisations. These things will take time and inflammatory comments from whatever point of view will not bring change any quicker. The Ring sides that won't dance on the same bill as women will find themselves invited to fewer and fewer events though.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Redwing
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:52 AM

Nice sentiments, Neovo. Sometimes I feel it's a shame that the our varied forms of dance all got filed under the banner of "Morris" because it has led to "rules" which may (emphasise "may") apply to one form of morris being forced on another one to which has no link whatsoever and hence no relevance. I also tend to suspect that the "men only" dictate that the Ring championed had more to do with the attitudes and preferences at the time that Cecil Sharp was around collecting the dances and reviving them with teams of university students than true "tradition". But that's just my gut feeling.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 07:22 AM

Neovo,noin my opinion its not healthy,because there is a sizeable majority ,that either prefer not to be in it ,or are excluded from it.
At no point have I made inflammatory statements.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 07:49 AM

Why does the "health" of one of the morris organisations concern you so much?

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 08:22 AM

Did I say you had made inflamatory statements? I can't recall naming names.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 08:54 AM

Yes, it has bothered me too that there is a hint of a hidden agenda, an unclear subtext, and possibly the distant sound of an axe being ground - but we can not yet see or hear what it is all about.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 08:56 AM

Does this mean that the position of Waitrose is not healthy, because there is a sizeable majority that either prefer other supermarkets, or can not reach a branch? And what of Sky TV? Esso? Barclays? Mercedes?

Not having over 50% of the market does not mean the body concerned is failing and near to collapse.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Strad
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:30 AM

Is women dancing Morris the reason for all this wet weather??

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:35 AM

Come on, Captain Birdseye.The vast body of people in this country do not support Manchester United, do not buy Arctic Monkeys records, do not live in London and never take holidays on narrow boats. Yet all these minority activities seem to carry on uninterrupted and perfectly successfully.
If you wish to make a point about the Morris Ring, or members of Pigeon Fanciers clubs, or any opther minorty grouping, then spit it out, don't really on hints and sneers.The Morris Ring happens to exist to promote an activity both you and I have no particular wish to get involved with. This does not cause me any problem, but it apparently does to you(I say apparently, because all your comments are slightly veiled).So, if you have a problem, what exactly is it?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 10:06 AM

There is no hidden agenda ,no axe being ground,neither have i sneered at anyone,I have stated earlier my views on Morris dancing,End of story,.
Treewind,I started this thread ,to see what peoples opinions were,quite a normal thing for a discussion forum.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: skipy
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 10:17 AM

I'm going to form "Crossover Morris Federation Ring" where men can cance morris dressed as ladies!
Skipy

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:11 AM

The only thing I object to is Morris dancing done badly. And so much is done badly by so many. I don't care who does it – male, female, mixed, provided it is danced well.

If I hate anything it is bad Border - the dance of the lazy and the inept who think all you need to do is black your face, wear rags and shout a lot. Bad Border – the easy option; Bad Border – the style that is displacing all others.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:13 AM

good point, morris -ey.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:39 AM

Bad Border?
Send'em all to a Shropshire Bedlams practice.
That should wake them up!

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:59 PM

"I started this thread ,to see what peoples opinions were,quite a normal thing for a discussion forum."

I call bullshit.
Why did you not start a thread enquiring with equally wide-eyed innocence about the state of health of the Morris Federation, for example. Or Open Morris? Why only one organisation?

Richard's right of, course. As with several other threads you started, the sound of distant axes being ground is deafening. I'm really not sure what the agenda is in this case. Other than standard troll motivation - pick on something controversial and watch the fun as everybody picks fights with each other.

I won't be fooled again.

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:31 PM

If it is not possible to discuss something controversial,This forum would be very boring,.
Through discussion it maybe possible to change and alter opinions,and learn.
if you want to discuss the Morris federation,Start your own thread and discuss it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:57 PM

The Morris Ring is a private members' organisation, and anyone who disagrees with it, or who has an unfavourable opinion of it, is entitled to choose not to join.

It is an umbrella organisation for Morris dance clubs that are all male. That is for historical reasons, and remains the case largely for social reasons, and because the pace of change in an organisation devoted to a traditional activity is likely to be slow.

My own team, Dolphin, has been in the Ring for many years. We get a lot out of it, not just meeting other clubs at events all over the country and abroad, but also as a source of information, publications and equipment. The Ring has massive archives of photographs and film, and has published or facilitated the publication of many books, tapes, CDs and videos, all of which help to keep the morris alive.

As a member of a Ring side, I enjoy the "all boys together" atmosphere of a Ring feast. It's puerile, sometimes, but it's fun.

But I have only come across one or two so-called "misogynists" in 24 years in the Morris. And one of those has a wife who dances in a step-clog team that is closely allied to his own Cotswold side.

Dolphin have a long history of association with women's and mixed sides. Several of our members are or have been married to dancers from other North West and Cotswold sides. We regularly dance at mixed events. We organise events and invite mixed and women's sides.

It simply isn't an issue, and hasn't been for 20 years or more.

There is no more misogyny in the Ring than in any other group of men with a similar age profile. The Ring doesn't seek to discourage or prevent women from dancing. I have been to several Ring events where women have been at the top table.

I see more prejudice against the Ring than I find within it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 10:55 PM

Greg Stephens, The Morris ring does not cause me a problem.[Iam not a female morris dancer]
In every other form of traditional music,judgements are made on merit,people are employed regardless of sex,they are employed because of their abilities,.
A very good argument, could be made that male morris sides,are not getting the best dancers,because they are using gender as a way of choosing their members.,
At the moment that is their prerogative,but it doesnt mean That the public are necessarily enjoying Morris dancing of the highest standard as a result.
THE Morris Federation has among its aims the maintaining and improvement of standards.
The Morris Ring,states that it wants to encourage Morris dancing, preserve and maintain the history and traditions of Morris Dancing.
Open Morris, believe in morris dancing for all,and that Morris should be fun.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:21 AM

Morris teams don't choose their members. Dancers (or would-bne dancers) choose the team.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:54 AM

Manitas,Yes ,but by excluding women [being male only],it means women are denied the right to dance with a particular team,should they approach a male only team,however good a dancer they are,their application is not going to be considered on merit.
consequently Male only sides are losing the oppurtunity to include good female dancers,and possibly improve the standard of their dancing.
I am not a Morris dancer,that does not stop me from enjoying morris danced well,.
earlier in this thread I was asked why it concerned me as I was not a Morris dancer, [what a weak argument],that is like saying if you are not a singer or musician,you cant appreciate good singing and playing.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:19 AM

But if it's a single gender team (of whatever persuasion) why would another gender person want to join? Or have I missed the point? If a man wanted to join a Women's NW side would they look good in the frock? Changing the gender mix would change the whole ethos and style. Form or join a mixed side if that's what you want to do.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:34 AM

Thank you Dick - that's a much clearer and more honest statement of your views on the subject than the rather mysterious question with which you started the thread.

I don't happen to agree with that view, for reasons I stated earlier so needn't repeat.

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:46 AM

There is no "right" to dance. If a team is male only (or female only come to that) then consideration of members of the opposite sex joining simply does not arise.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:22 AM

If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance.
In my opinion,Morris dancing should be decided on merit /ability not gender.
Clearly as the Morris federation,has many more members than the Morris ring,this is a majority view amongst people who dance the morris.
Morris ring 152members ,Morris fed 405,open Morris 92.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:25 AM

Membership numbers do not necessarily imply that those in Open or Fed are mixed. I dance for two women's Federation NW sides - we don't allow men to dance with us.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: IanC
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:33 AM

Yeah, I think we've gone off-topic here talking about individual sides. The thread was about The Morris Ring.

My village mummers team are members of Open Morris as we're not Morris Dancers and all we really want is the insurance (all the "Morris Organisations" badly let down mummers when they negotiated the "Morris Exemption" in the licensing bill and none are doing anything at all about it now) and Open Morris is simply the cheapest.

My rapper team are members of The Ring. Strictly speaking, we have broken Ring rules and should be thrown out of The Ring for letting women dance with us occasionally for performances. It isn't the team's gender orientation that I was referring to above, it's the organisation's. On that level, things do have to change, and they will.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:43 AM

Women move differently - its just a plain fact, their proportions are different, their limbs are jointed differently - and as soon as an infant gets up on its hind legs there is a visible difference between the sexes.

Ok, some men are definitely effeminate in their movements - my older son, 6ft 4inches and he works out, but he runs like a big girl's blouse - and some women dance vigorously, but all that has nothing to do with how the Morris Ring conducts itself.

Some sides were reconstructed after the first world war - according to the folk law, because some of the sisters of those who did not return from the war had assisted their brothers in practising the dances.

I don't know how accurate the song 'The Ladies go dancing at Whitsun' is - or if it is supose to include Cotswold Morris, but it does seem to indicate that the original tradition of dancing as part of the yearly cycle was carried on by the distaff side.

I had a number of elderly female relatives who never married because there were no men to marry. My grandfather was tiny - so small he was not taken for the army. He went to sign on with the other lads from the village, and had to walk all the way back alone, and slept under a hedge - he played Little Devil Doubt, but no one else in the play survived the war....

But recent history is probably of little interest to the organisers of the Morris Ring. It is their club, if they want it to be all male that is their privilage. If there are sides who make spectacles of themselves refusing to associate with women dancers - well there are greater mysogenists, and who knows, all this rapid climate change in the last hundred years might actually be due to women dancing the morris and not greenhouse gasses at all. All those glaciers melting - dead significant if you think about it.

If the Morris ring is eventually reduced to a few sides and some old men in cardigans looking after their library and other resources - well - so what?

If the Morris Ring gets political and takes over the government, legislates against women dancing or playing music - that would be interesting, so would the consequences.

We can't preserve anything for ever, and people are dancing the morris, perhaps without the discipline, or the finesse, or the rationale of the old sides, but it is not lost, just different.

It isn't something that can be controlled, people aged from two to ninety two dance on the sea front at Sidmouth - they dance like maidens or madmen - and anything in betweeen.

It's the beat.

The beat goes on.

I wonder why they called themselves the Morris RING....

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:44 AM

Captain Birdseye

If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance.

To your knowledge, has this ever happened?

Some male morris dancers prefer to dance in men only sides. Some female morris dancers prefer to dance in women only sides. Some men and women prefer to dance in mixed sides. All categories are catered for. What is the problem?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:24 AM

Birdseye

"If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance."

There you go again. Where is this "right to dance"?

If they don't like it they can form their own side - or move.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:31 AM

As a female, I see no appeal whatsoever in joining an all-male side. If I wanted to dance and could find no local female or mixed side, then I'd probably put the word about and try to start one.

I see no reason why an all-male side shouldn't be allowed to remain an all-male side if that's what they want to do. Allowing a female to join the side would change the dynamics of the side, of the dancing and of the whole thing generally. On top of which, if the members are dancing with the side because they want to dance with an all-male side, if females were allowed to join, some of them would probably leave, since they wouldn't be getting what they wanted out of it. It could bring about the decline and finish of a side.

Why can't we all just leave people alone to do what they want to do?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:51 AM

Treewind, if you Contacted a folk club/festival organiser,and was told, no its against our policy to book female singers,would you be annoyed?
Morris dancing is the only form of traditional music that operates a Gender BIAS.
I am talking about equal opportunities,that people should not be excluded from dancing because of their gender,that sides should be made up of the best dancers, regardless of their gender.
I as a member of the public like to see a good display,I would rather see a good mixed morris side,rather than a bad Male Morris side,
The Snail,thats why a lot of women sides were formed originally[1970s],so that they could dance ,because they were not allowed to dance with the men[where have you been,or maybe you werent born then].

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: RogerTCB
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:50 AM

Yes, there are a few misogynists (for whom 'womens morris' is an oxymoron) hiding out in the Morris Ring but their numbers are dwindling.

I know from experience that several Squires' of The Morris Ring have no difficulty at all with womens/mixed morris & have done their best to lead the reactionaries of the member sides into the light.

Very few member sides of The Morris Ring are actually active within the organisation (the same applies to the Fed as well). The two Ring sides I dance with are only there by accident and now its just too much effort to change & would provoke arguments between friends for no benefit. Both sides are male only because most of the members prefer it that way and the rest don't care. Because they are male only sides, they can be members of The Ring. Its the side itself deciding collectively that they want to be a mens organisation, not the Ring.

The Ring has never had an influence over either of my Ring sides choice of who they dance out with & both go on tour with womens & mixed sides without any difficulty.

Several years ago, both Ducklington & Ellington changed from male to mixed so the could continue rather than fold. Whatever Morris organisations they were members of before, they are now both members of the Federation.

The statement about Ring sides refusing entry to women has the cart before the horse - its nothing to do with the Ring & everything to do with the members of the side approached.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:00 AM

"In my opinion,Morris dancing should be decided on merit /ability not gender."

As an admitted non-dancer why do you place such importance on your opinion in this matter?

What about freedom of association?

"Morris dancing is the only form of traditional music that operates a Gender BIAS."

No, that just is not true.

"I would rather see a good mixed morris side,rather than a bad Male Morris side"

A bad morris side of either sex won't impove just by becoming mixed. The fact of the matter is that some Morris teams are better than others and their gender or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:13 AM

Anyway, the original question:

"does anyone know, the present health of this organisation"

Ageing, perhaps, but still the most long-lived of any similar organisations.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:27 AM

Captain Birdseye

The Snail,thats why a lot of women sides were formed originally[1970s],so that they could dance ,because they were not allowed to dance with the men[where have you been,or maybe you werent born then].

Actually, I was dancing morris in the seventies with Chanctonbury Ring and a University side that became Brighton Morris Men. Both of these remain men only. Around that time I knew the women who formed the Knots of May (Garland and Clog) and Cuckoo's Nest (Cotswold) both of which remain women only. Not long after, Ditchling Morris was formed as a mixed side which it remains. There are umpteen other sides within twenty miles. Nobody needs to feel excluded.

I'll ask again, do you have any evidence that anyone has ever not been able to find a side to join?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 10:49 AM

MANITAS ,Please tell us what other forms of traditional music operate a gender bias,women are booked at folksong clubs ,can dance and play at ceilidhs and country dances, can dance playford,can call for dancing,
my opinion is important because I am amember of the public,morris dancing is a form of entertainment,it may not be its only purpose ,but if a Morris side goes and collects money,they are putting on a performance,the better[entertainment and good dancing]performance they acheive the more money they will get.
Snail,all those original womens morris sides 1970,s were formed because they could not dance with men.,so they had to form womens sides
I dont need to state a particular case,as I was quoting as a hypothetical argument.
Manitas ,a bad male side will improve if it allows good female dancers to dance with them.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

Birdseye

I am not clear anymore, if I ever was, what your point is.

On the one hand you talk of a "right" to dance, but do not say where this right is enshrined; then you talk of performance at clubs (which, presumably can have whatever criteria they like), of being able to dance at ceilidhs, and why not they pay to do so, then you talk about morris as entertainment.

It really is quite simple. Morris dance sides do not have to have as members anyone they don't want. We were a mens side that danced with womens sides, with mixed sides, danced individiually with mixed sides, were members of the Ring and were vociferous in that organisation about the need for change. We were very selective as to which men we allowed to join because we had a philosphy about performance that we did not want to compromise by letting in those who were not or could not become good enough to meet our standards.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:20 AM

"a bad male side will improve if it allows good female dancers to dance with them."
In the same way that a male voice choir will improve if it allows good female singers to join.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:51 AM

"a bad male side will improve if it allows good female dancers to dance with them."

Any bad side will improve if it allows any good dancers to join them.

Male female or those that have had the operation.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 12:07 PM

Male voice choirs for one.

Ceoltas and the Gaelic Mod have separate classes for male and female singing regardless of the register, don't they?

The Baccu Ber in France has only boys and young men.

Javanese Bedoyo and Srimpi is for girls only.

There are loads more traditional dances which have a gender bias but have named a few actual traditions rather than hypothetical ones I don't have to search out any more.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 12:15 PM

To back up manitas at work, and others, can I remake a point I made earlier. My partner(female) runs a women's choir called the Loud Mouth Women. It is great. There are other women's choirs in the region. There are also male voice choirs. Clearly some people (well, Catain Birdseye) have a problem with this. I don't.
At Christmas, we have a special mixed sex choir for a bit of carol-singing. That's fun, too.To be frank, anybody who comes and tells us who we should or should not be singing with will get a short two-word answer.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:04 PM

I am talking about traditional folk music,male voice choirs are irrelevant,as are female voice choirs, in the english/british folk tradition women can call dances ,do country dancing sing at folk clubs,do playford,play in ceilidh bands.,but not dance with certain male morris sides
Greg Stephens,I dont have a problem with anything apart from women being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:06 PM

Captain Birdseye

I dont have a problem with anything apart from women being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender.

Do you have a problem with men being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Lester
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:56 PM

I felt like writing a cogent argument to put Captain Birdseye's mind at rest as to why a club that wishes to be for only one gender is acceptable but on reading the whole thread I would seem that he is, as my chum James May would say, a cock, so I wont bother.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:25 PM

only half!

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:38 PM

lester ,you have a different point of view to me ,but there is no need to be insulting.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Marje
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:40 PM

I agree with the points made by Lynne in a couple of posts above.
I prefer to watch men dance morris, but am happy to watch mixed or women's sides too. But Morris-ey, you're so right about Bad Border being the lazy unisex option, it can be toe-curlingly embarrassing to watch, and is a world away from the likes of Wild Hunt.

I don't think it would be wise for anyone to try to change the all-male or all-female policy of certain sides, because it's not just a case of dancing well or badly. Women dance differently, just as they sing differently and talk differently. Some mixed sides can accommodate this quite well, but the best single-sex sides display an inherent maleness or femaleness in their dancing that would be diluted if they were to dance as a mixed side. And I really don't like seeing women in traditional men's Cotswold gear - those breeches and tucked-in shirts look awful on most women. It's almost as bad as putting a man in a Mother-Goose-style dress to dance Garland.

So I have no problem with Ring sides continuing to be all male. I do find it offensive when they refuse to dance at the same stand as women (and Lynne's is not the only instance of this I've come across) but I'm relieved to hear this isn't widespread. I'm all for a bit of diversity in morris and can't see the problem with single-sex and mixed-sex sides coexisting and offering a choice.

Marje

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:00 PM

Bang on Marje - IMHO.

I haven't seen a good mixed Cotswold side - seen a couple of excellent single sex ones - Pecsaetan and Windsor of course.

Seen some men's sides who's dancing would be put to shame by either of those teams and IMHO many of the best male sides are not members of the ring. Teams whose dancing I like to think is good.....I like to think a lot of.....Great Western, Berkshire Bedlams, Outside Capering Crew, Redbournestoke, Chingford, my own side Sheffield City Morris etc.

But those black trousers look really good on Pecsaetan.

http://www.pecsaetan.co.uk/gallery

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:34 PM

A change in policy can never be forced on anyone,it is only likely to happen if there are not enough men to make up a side.,
What did upset me,was to see a male morris side dancing in Bantry in Ireland,their dancing was poor, I thought what a shame a good side are not here,to show English heritage at its best,.what a bad impression, people who have never seen Morris might get,when dancers can hardly get off the floor ,and cant dance in straight lines,or partly in time with the music.

I agree it could equally have been a womens morris side,I have seen a bad one of those recently.
Ring members,Refusing to dance with female musicians,and refusing to dance at the same stand as women ,certainly happened twenty years ago.I hope their attitude has improved,and that it is a thing of the past.,
the very fact that The Morris ring mentions the Morris Federation,and Open Morris is a step in the right direction.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:20 PM

I think the point of Border is less as a spectacle, more for the enjoyment of the participants.

That said, such sides as Powderkegs, Stone the Crows, et al, are spectacularly fun to watch - their raw enthusiasm coupled with attention to detail stands them apart from some of the 'also rans'... or is that 'also danced'?!

Folkiedave - the Earl of Stamford Morris are a well respected mixed side - and we also have seven very keen under 18s in the side. They were commended recently at Middlewich Folk and Boat Festival...

We regularly do joint 'fun dance outs' with sides such as Adlington Morris and Thelwall, both all male Ring sides.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:27 AM

Cpt Birdseye's latest post is telling - it seems he is basing his entire argument on a 20 year old outdated impression of the Ring. Things have changed in the last 20 years - for the better IMHO and will continue to do so.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:40 AM

I was trying not to be too dogmatic - believe it or not - which is why I said "Cotswold" since I have seen good mixed NW and border sides. And plenty of women;s sides have good young dancers under 20 - but a lot of the men's sides struggle - I know we do, mainly because most of us had daughters and not sons!!

Sheffield City danced with a ring side two weeks ago, and with a ring side and women's side together only three weeks ago.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 04:23 AM

Neovo,what are you talking about,my OP is quite clear,it is a question.Questions are asked to get information.
Marje asked me for my opinion,I stated that I preferred to see good dancers ,regardless of gender,whether they be mixed or otherwise.
I started this post to get more information about how the morris ring is today,the best way to get information is to ask.
I do not have an impression of the Morris ring today,thats why I am asking,however history happened and the Morris ring were very anti women dancing[fact],that is what I stated,I ALSO said the fact they mentioned the FED AND OPEN MORRIS on their websiste indicated a change.
I try and use this forum to get up to date information[I live in Ireland],I find it rather depressing that matters such as this cannot be discussed in a more pleasant manner.
from some of the contributors,LesB,and lynne, It Seems there is still room for a bit of improvement.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Fidjit
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 04:51 AM

I see that Dick still has his wooden spoon.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:09 AM

Fidjit.I believe your last comment is known as Flaming.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:35 AM

The Captain is obviously a very busy man. He must have missed my posts. I'll try again.

Captain Birdseye

If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance.

To your knowledge, has this ever happened?

Some male morris dancers prefer to dance in men only sides. Some female morris dancers prefer to dance in women only sides. Some men and women prefer to dance in mixed sides. All categories are catered for. What is the problem?

Captain Birdseye

I dont have a problem with anything apart from women being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender.

Do you have a problem with men being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:59 AM

But why does the Captain have a problem with this anyway? He has said he is not a dancer and as he lives in Ireland there are no exclusive Morris teams near him. Or are his local Mummers male-only? If so which organisation do they belong to?

I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:11 AM

y
Snail here is a little bit of history,quoted from the morris federation.
About the Federation
There was a dramatic rise in the number of women publicly dancing morris in the early 1970s, with several female Cotswold and NorthWest morris sides forming. This followed a period of three or four decades during which a 'male only' climate had been allowed and encouraged to prevail in morris circles. The emergence of female dancers was greeted with some hostility by those who considered it to be 'untraditional'. Only the Carnival Morris of the NorthWest, usually performed by teams of young girls, had continued as an example of public female morris during this time. This itself had been considered a deviation from the 'pure' tradition, rather than a continuation of it, and had been virtually dismissed by some as irrelevant anyway. It must be said that, while morris would appear always to have been a predominantly male pursuit, it was never exclusively so.The idea of an organisation to provide information and moral support for these newly formed women's sides was first mooted in 1973 and, following a period of informal contact, the Women's Morris Federation was officially inaugurated in October 1975.At first, much emphasis was placed on the historical validity of female morris, both by its exponents and its opponents. Later, the opinion expressed by many was that morris dancing should be seen and treated as a living, evolving tradition which of necessity reflects the society in which it plays a part. To try to preserve it exactly as it is at some arbitrary point in time would be to prevent it from taking its natural course, so fossilising it.The Federation thus began as an organisation for female sides only. In 1980, it opened its doors to mixed sides and in 1982 it became open to any morris side, regardless of gender. A year later, the word 'Women's' was dropped from the name. The Federation has always taken the view that the dances themselves are more important than the gender of the dancers who perform them. It seeks to encourage all who are interested to experience the pleasure of morris dancing and to strive for the highest standard of execution of which they are capable.
Snail, why do you think the federation was formed ,because of male hostility,.
from the information, I have received in this discussion the hostility appears to have lessened,
Ihope that answers your first question.
your second question,was explained,in my earlier post when I said that good dancing was more important than gender.
your questions are off topic,and are merely point scoring,IF women had been allowed to dance the morris back in 1970 with male sides,and had not been prevented by morris ring members hostility,the present situation where women are preventing men from joining would not have arisen,and well you know it.
Yes I am busy, I have a gig tonight,and I have Pupils coming for lessons,so my time to waste on this is limited.
I am genuinely pleased to see that many male members of the ring have changed their attitudes and have become more liberal,a shame that a more liberal squire wasnt elected last year,perhaps the progress would have been even quicker ,good luck to you and I hope you keep enjoying the Morris.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: LesB
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:29 AM

"from some of the contributors,LesB,and lynne, It Seems there is still room for a bit of improvement"
I am not advocating a free for all. I am just not particularly comfortable with the male only, all lads together, feeling that ensues. My particular problem is not in intigrating women dancers in the side, ( I see nothing wrong in male & female sides if that is what they want), but that we have a female musician & are therefore banned from ring meetings. As are our spouses if we want to attend the 'feast'.
There is an opinion being expressed that, eventualy, as the old guard retire & numbers of active dancers fall that the Fed & Ring will merge.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:04 AM

the Captain is on tour in England regularly,Only last week he was in the company of Morris dancers,and rappers,he enjoyed the dancing and the real ale[sadly lacking in Ireland],
Morris dancers come from England to Ireland,And have been seen dancing by the Captain,in his locality,.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Bill S from Adelaide
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:23 AM

In answer to one of the comments, there is a joint annual belly and morris get together at Canberra and in 2007 the morris managed to out-belly the belly dancers to claim the trophy.
This discussion has lasted for decades and still arouses passions, amazing.
I've actually joined the Ring 3 times with 3 sides as well as being squire of a 4th side. I also joined the Women's Morris Fed. One of the sides had a female musician and we refused to go to the Ring meeting if she couldn't go, so we found a meeting where she was away and couldn't go anyway.
I can remember the first revival female side dancing at C#H (Englands Glory) an event that spawned the first women's clog side at Poynton.( Only a coule of blokes walked out, the rest cheered a great performance). I've danced in mixed sides, dual sides (one side but male and female had different repertoires) and male sides. I'm currently squire of a male side that will include females when in kit. I can't dance clog morris because only females do that (though I have been declared an honorary female by a couple of sides!).
Morris is a broad church with room for all sorts but the overriding issue is the quality of the dance. Some mens/womens/mixed sides are very good, some aren't, there are events for men, for women and for both.
Now that's settled let's start to campaign for more women in Welsh Male Voice Choirs!!
Wassail

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:31 AM

Captain Birdseye

your questions are off topic,and are merely point scoring

They were direct responses to things you had said. How could they be off topic?

To my first question, you went on at some length about the situation thirty years ago. I'm talking about now.

Your second was in response to your statement about people being excluded on the basis of gender; nothing about quality.

So, no, you haven't answered my questions.

Has it occurred to you that some women dance in women only teams because they prefer to do so whether it be for artistic, social or political reasons? Have you asked them? And if they have that choice, why shouldn't men have the same? For those who prefer mixed sides, there are plenty available. All tastes are catered for.

Once again, what is the problem? (Now, not in the seventies.)

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:38 PM

SNAIL.I said if a Morris side[that makes my question hypothetical].
your last question,As regards the situation in the 1970s,yes I have asked women,and the reason was because they wanted to dance and were not allowed to dance with men,some of the morris ring members were hostile and threatened to report teams to the ring,who allowed women to dance with them, so they formed womens sides.
women have that choice now,but that choice was not available until they formed womens sides,The Morris ring was denying them the right to dance with men.[the freedom of association argument,should not have disallowed women rights]
supposing the Morris ring had at that time,not allowed a Dancer to be part of a team,on racial grounds,would that have been ok.
the reason women dance in womens sides now, may have altered,but could still be partly affected by morris history,and the PAST hostility from the Morris Ring.
Your Second Question is in my opinion silly,but since you want my opinion[probably so you can score points in a discussion]I would say that all the time ,Male Morris ring sides insist on preventing women from dancing in a team with them,it has got to be o k,for women sides to do likewise,what is sauce for the Gander is sauce for the Goose .
It is clear from contributors to this discussion,that the Morris Ring has become much more liberal in its views.,and that the old attitude is dying away quickly.
LES b has said that there is an opinion being expressed,that eventually as the old guard retire and numbers of active dancers fall that the Fed and the Ring will merge,.
As the fed have 405 members and the ring 152,the merger could be because of the Morris Rings health, They are standing at about 28 PERCENT.
I have learned a lot from this discussion,and am pleased to hear that a lot of the old reactionary, anti women attitudes are disappearing.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:34 PM

So your going to carry on answering my first question with respect to thirty years ago and you can't grasp the idea that women's sides may actually prefer it that way.

Suit yourself.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 02:35 AM

"Threatened to report to the Ring..."

Nonsense.

I was at a Ring Meeting many years ago (men of Wight) when a woman came into the room to talk to her husband. One side made a fuss and walked out. Everyone else made her welcome.

The side that had walked out went up to the then Squire of the Ring to register their displeasure. His response was two words, the second of which was "off". I heard it myself.

The Ring has no interest in what Ring sides do at non-Ring events. My side has been dancing with women's and mixed sides for longer than my 24 years of dancing, and we consider ourselves to be active members of the Ring. We do 2 Ring meetings most years, host Ring events and so on.

The Ring is not anti women. A few individuals in it are, and those individuals are considered to be figures of fun by the rest of us.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:31 AM

I am sorry but I am finally driven to say this. I have the greatest difficulty in deciding whether Captian Birdseye makes any valid points simply because I find his posts almost impossible to read and certainly impossible to read with any speed.

The conventions of grammar, spelling, punctuation, and orderly exposition developed to assist comprehension, and the abandonment of them hinders it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:28 AM

Dear, Richard Bridge. You will be pleased to hear, I have now found a grammar check. I hope my future posts will meet with your grammatical satisfaction. When I was at school I deemed it more important to study music than punctuation, I am pleased to say I have had very few complaints about my music and will now try harder with my punctuation, yours suitably chastised.
Punctuation, ignoramus.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 06:45 AM

If you didn't use punctuation in your music, it would sound pretty meaningless and nobody would bother to listen to you. Oddly enough, the same is true of prose. I'm sure that you wouldn't insult your (musical) audience by playing incoherent music. The same courtesy extended to your (prose) audience would certainly help us to understand what you are trying to say.

Music and speech -whether heard or physically represented- both require the same disciplines of expression in order to make them coherent and meaningful. Neither is more important than the other; they are, essentially, the same thing.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 08:25 AM

Malcolm.an unecessary post.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 01:02 PM

Whoah! Posts in a forum now have to be necessary?   What a utilitarian perspective. Let me fetch my simple peasant's garb of sack cloth and tonight I shall sup on gruel. No longer for the world of unnecessary excess and mere frivolity. Come, brothers and sisters, let us sit in silence, and type only messages of great import.

If necessary means essential to the general good, or to the success of the activity in question, then anything that tends to encourage good grammar and punctuation in a forum where the only means of communication is the written word must be necessary.

Now, whether a post from someone who professes not to be a Morris dancer or a potential Morris dancer, bemoaning a supposed problem in the ranks of people who actually are Morris dancers is "necessary"...

But surely the whole point of an internet forum or discussion group is that it is creative and enjoyable. I liked the post comparing grammar and punctuation to music. It was a good point well made.