The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?

Subject: The Morris Ring
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 02:33 PM

does anyone know, the present health of this organisation.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 02:47 PM

I found them to be a highly biggoted organisation indeed.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: gnomad
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 02:50 PM

I no longer dance myself, but their Website looks to be being kept current.

Do you have something making you uncertain, Captain?

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: LesB
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 02:53 PM

Apart from the fact that it's the last haven for misogamists, it's ticking along O.K. I think. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Last year Brian Tasker (who has a more liberal viewpoint)unfortunately failed in his attemt to get elected Squire. But it's only a matter of time before the enevitable happens & they have to moderise. (At present we cannot dance at a ring meeting owing to the fact that we have a female musician). Not that I personally would want to (they are very expensive weekends).
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: MBSLynne
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 03:24 PM

You mean misogynists not misogamists Les

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 03:28 PM

The proliferation of 'Mere Females' dancing morris must be causing them a lot of concern ! The saddest thing is that a lot of the girls are better dancers than a lot of the blokes !

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 04:12 PM

Indeed they are!

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 04:34 PM

Blimey, I thought that, like the dinosaurs, they had been wiped out years ago.
A bit like finding a real live Ceolacanth.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: LesB
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 04:40 PM

Lynne, "You mean misogynists not misogamists Les", That's microsoft spell checker for you.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Surreysinger
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 04:55 PM

And Ralphie means Coelacanth - just got the first two letters round the wrong way!!!
But Lynne .. for all we know Les might have been right ... a misogamist is a hater of marriage ... who's to say that members of the Ring are not also misogamists ???

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:01 PM

they appear to hate women morris dancers,and women morris musicians.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:09 PM

You raise an interesting, and quite conventional point, Cap'n(or may I call you Dick?). But is it necessarily a fair point?
My partner(who is female) runs a women's community choir. Does that, of itself, make her and her colleagues men-haters? The fact that Morris Ring types have reasons, whether personal or historical(erroneous or not), to dance in male groups surely doesn't actually prove they hate women doesa it|?
(I grind no axe here, I've never danced the morris with men, ladies or green lizards).

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 06:59 PM

Greg
I believe that "The Morris Ring" scorn any sort of contact with green lizards or indeed any other reptiles. My own team (The Bonny Green Garter-Snakes) was refused entry on these grounds. One of our dancers is a slow-worm, which as you will know is actually a legless lizard, indeed most of the other dancers often appeared legless. The Lord of the Ring voted against our application citing the obvious kinship to newts after exposure to beer.
At the moment we are keeping a close eye on the Ring - we have appointed a "monitor lizard" who is having a close gecko at their activities. I find it turtley unacceptable.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: LesB
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 07:30 PM

Martin, when you have you day of dance ceilidh, do you have "The Geckos" or "The Gloworms" to play?
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 08:16 PM

Les
We usually have a stand-up chameleon for a warm up and, after a few pints of snakebite, experience has tortoise that a few songs go down well - "To be a Farmer's Boa"; "Come Landlord Fill the Flowing Boa"; "I'll Fathom the Boa" etc.
We usually book a good sceilidh (say it out loud) band and finish off with the conga.
martin

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 11:09 PM

You can still find live coelacanths, BTW.

Today is market day in Armidale and I was fascinated to see one of the local (Northeastern Asian) martial arts clubs doing a display of their activities. By the look of their swords (long and short but all wooden) they were Japanese but they used long staff techniques as well. At various points they lined up (three facing three) and, to the calls of their leader (mostly "Hai!" but there were other utterances too) they performed what must be described as Japanese Morris. They had no hobby horse and, unfortunately, no music or musician; thankfully there were no bells of any sort. I felt inspired to write some haiku and pull out the concertina (which I'd left at home) but was too slow. I suspect they wouldn't have understood the cultural reference anyway.

And, do you know? Their best performer was a woman! So I guess they could never be part of the Morris Ring.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Lester
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 03:38 AM

As far as I can tell it's a group of like minded blokes who want to do what they want to do. There seems to be another group of people who want to join in but don't agree with with the way the first group wants to do it, so why do they want to join in. The Ring wants to be men only the Fed and Open are happy to accept women, men, children etc, so why do people insist the Ring needs to be change?

Not that I care particularly as I no longer attend Ring events as they are too expensive. The other reasons to be members, insurance etc is a cross-organisational.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: MBSLynne
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:05 AM

It's why a lot of morris sides have, in recent years, joined what was "The Women's Morris Federation" and is now, I believe "The Morris Federation".

As a female ex-garland dancer I was horrified when a couple of Ring Morris sides wouldn't even dance out with us on pub tours because we were women. If they don't want women in their Morris sides that's fair enough, but I can see no good reason for them to refuse to dance out with women's sides even though the women aren't dancing morris. Seems like carrying things too far to me.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:19 AM

so a lot of Morris sides have joined the Morris federation,This might indicate The Morris Ring has lost some members,and is not in as good state of health[Mermbership wise] as it was.
looks like if the trend continues,eventually, it will become to weak to exist.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Surreysinger
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:37 AM

""To be a Farmer's Boa"; "Come Landlord Fill the Flowing Boa"; "I'll Fathom the Boa" etc"

Martin - what's the obsession with feathery neckwear? Is it the latest Morris gear??
Slithers off in haste ....

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: Baggins 360
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 08:57 AM

The Morris Ring can dictate all they like about Cotswold Morris but not NorthWest Morris. Women and boys have danced since after the First World War because most of the NW sides were decimated and the Dance Masters taught Women and Boys so the NW tradition wouldn't be lost. Mind you the bloody Morris Ring and Dear Old Mister Sharpe don't/didn't really consider NW Morris a traditional dance form basically because it didn't fit their/his Rural Picture. How many NW dances did our Cecil collect on his way up the country? NONE that's how many, he got to Cheshire, Saw the Smoke and gave Lancashire a complete bloody body swerve! So women dancing Cotswold is bound to get then hot under the Hankie!

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 09:19 AM

They can dictate all they like about anything they like, as far as I am concerned. Whether we take that dictation is another thing.

Subject: RE: THE MORRIS RING
From: MBSLynne
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 09:49 AM

It depends, I think, on whether you are into 'glass case' folk of an evolving folk tradition. I do believe it's necessary to record and to some extent continue morris and other follk traditions as they were, but it has to allow for the evolution of folk as well. Morris may have been a ritual thing done at certain times of year for certain reasons, though no one is completely sure about what and why. However, these days though morris sides dance particularly on certain days to continue the traditions, mostly morris and other dance types are done because people enjoy them and want to dance. If women enjoy dancing morris, why shouldn't they? Ok, it may not be traditional, but why should that be a good reason for them not to do it?

This is purely academic as I have no desire at all to dance Cotswold Morris but I see no good reason why other women shouldn't if they want to. "An it harm none, do what you will"

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 01:00 PM

Well, the Morris Ring want to do things their way, and other people want to do it differently. Fine for all concerned isn't it? Where is the problem?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 01:24 PM

It doesnt appear to be fine for all concerned,.
which is why Morris sides have left the Morris ring and joined the Morris federation.
Here is a hypothetical example,two peopleof the opposit sex who cohabit together, and have also the same intersts in Morris dancing,can not dance together because of the morris rings attitude.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: LesB
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 03:05 PM

My wife & I both dance, I for a ring side (sword team) her for a Fed side (N/W). We don't particularly want to dance together, neither do I particularly want my side to be mixed.
But when the team are invited to a ring, or ring type do, my feeling is that if it's not good enough for my wife to attend, then it's not good enough for me. So I wont go to weekends where wifes are excluded from 'The Feast'.
I have actually been told thet "it's o.k. for wifes to come on the weekend, but they can't come to the evening event" (feast). So I didn't go.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Marje
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 03:20 PM

What I find far from fine is when, as Lynne points out, some Ring sides will not even dance at or attend an event when other mixed or female sides are attending. That, to me, is an unacceptable and insulting attitude towards others who dance the morris. There's no parallel here with, say, choirs, who generally enjoy hearing other choirs with a different gender profile and sharing big musical events together.

I'm not sure quite what answer Dick was hoping for when he asked the question, but it would not trouble me at all to learn that the Ring sides were declining in popularity and on their way to social extinction. Unless they change their attitudes, that's what they deserve.

Marje

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 03:48 PM

This is really all very old news. Don't mistake the attitudes of individuals for those of organisations. If an individual team chooses not to dance with another, that is up to its members; the Ring is just an umbrella organisation and has, so far as I know, no rules concerning that. It merely restricts its membership to all-male teams. Who does or doesn't get invited to dinner afterwards is presumably a decision made by the individuals organising the event.

Morris isn't my subject, though inevitably I know a lot of people of both sexes who are involved in it. Dick may find the following helpful in forming an opinion based on what is going on today rather than a quarter of a century ago:

The Morris Ring was founded in 1934, the original member teams being all from the Revival. The Women's Morris Federation was founded in 1975. In 1980 it decided to admit mixed as well as women-only teams, and in 1982 became open to all. 'Women's' was dropped from the name in 1983. Meanwhile (1979), a third organisation, Open Morris, was founded to counter the single-sex policies of the other two.

All three organisations continue in, so far as I know, perfectly good health; and on perfectly good speaking terms with each other. As (again, so far as I know) the only national organisation until 1975, the Ring naturally lost members to Open Morris and, later, the Federation; but over the last 20 years everything seems to have settled down and I doubt if there is a lot of movement of membership between the three.

Given that ceremonial dance teams (whatever they dance) typically have a quite short lifespan and I would guess (though others will have to confirm or deny that guess) that the majority of teams currently dancing were founded less than 20 years ago in any case, then if they have joined any of the umbrella organisations, they will probably have gone directly to whichever one best suited them (or may indeed be attached to more than one).

http://www.themorrisring.org/

http://www.morrisfed.org/

http://www.open-morris.com/

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 04:16 PM

If anyone can provide details of the Morris rings membership 20 YEARS AGO,and its membership today,I might get an answer.
Malcolm your statement[I doubt if there is a lot of movement of membership between the three]is uninformed guesswork ,If it isnt and you are well informed,I would appreciate your time in passing on these membership figures.
Marje,I agree with you,but would go further and say that I enjoy seeing women dancing the morris,and mixed morris sides,and men dancing the Morris,if the dancers are good dancers.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: melodeonplayer
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:35 PM

I wanted to say "what a load of ill-informed bollocks" but i really can't be arsed!!!!!are

Simon Care

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Alan Day
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:48 PM

I had to contact the Morris Ring about six months ago with regards to recordings by a particular concertina artist thay have the rights for.
Firstly I found initial communication very difficult, the link above would have been very useful, but I went down many routes before I managed to get the contact number and proper Email address. I found the organisation very helpfull ,very cooperative and willing to offer advice.I will be in touch with them again in the future.
Al

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: melodeonplayer
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 06:05 PM

Sorry, maybe i can be arsed.

The Morris Ring is just an umbrella organization that decides to have "men only sides". - Get over it!!!
Mens Sides with female musicians are allowed membership.
Ring sides are not forbidden from dancing out with womens sides.

If i wanted to start an organization for Morris sides aged between 16 and 40 then would it be any different......I think not.

All three morris organizations work very well together on many aspects and even ran a joint day of dance this year . I was there with my team, Moulton and we danced out with many good teams from all three groups.

cheers
simon care

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: LesB
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 06:40 PM

Simon, correct me if i'm wrong, but ring sides with female musicians can't attend ring meetings, (unless they leave their musician at home).
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:26 PM

Well, Dick; if you are already sufficiently informed to pronounce upon the accuracy or otherwise of my guess (you have, after all, made plenty of your own), then you didn't really need to start the thread, did you? I'd suggest that you contact the relevant organisations directly if you want a detailed breakdown of their membership figures over the last 20 years. I have provided links to their websites; you can find contact details there. Do let us know what they have to say, won't you. It would be mildly interesting, though whether it would be as gratifyingly controversial as you seem to hope remains to be seen.

Meanwhile, all three websites have lists of current member and associate teams that you can look at if you are interested. That won't tell you much about the state of play 20 years ago, when many of those teams didn't exist, but you may find it easier to start at the present and work back rather than the other way around. Remember that a lot of teams are started up by young enthusiasts and fold after a few years as work and family responsibilities (not to mention health and fitness issues) intervene, so a proper statistical analysis will require quite a lot of work. I'm sure that it would be a useful exercise if you are up for it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 04:39 AM

Simon Care, MBS lynne,has given example of morris ring sides refusing to dance out with a woman garland side.
They may not be forbidden,but the attitudes of some of their members[Lynnes example] Indicates a lot.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 04:42 AM

DID YOU KNOW that an anagram of "Prime Minister Gordon Brown" is "Tepid, worn, boring morrismen"?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: IanC
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:22 AM

Relations between the 3 organisations are actually pretty good.

From the point of view of insurance, they do things jointly anyway.

The ring will eventually go co-ed ... there's just a few old farts resisting it at the moment. The Ring sword team I dance with ocassionaly dances with women dancers in the set (and Rapper is a bit of a contact sport).

I agree with Malcolm that all 3 organisations thrive pretty well. I doubt many new sides will join the ring though until they change their rules.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:38 AM

Malcolm,thankyou for your help.
IanC,Thankyou for your information.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 06:08 AM

We're really talking about two different things here.....the rules and regs and health of the Morris Ring, and the attitudes of individual sides and individual dancers. Personally I think there's room for all and they should accept each other's decisions and preferences as far as membership of their sides goes.

Simon you're right about the age thing. The side with which my son dances used to be very dubious about dancing out with women's sides but had little choice, since the garland side I danced with was formed of and by their wives! Nowadays said morris die has become a lot younger, on average with many of the members aged between 15 and 30. They have also become noticeably less bothered by the women thing.

Love Lynne
Just a quci thought....though there is no actual restriction, as far as I know, on men dancing with women's sides, I'm not sure it would be great to have men in garland sides! To each his own.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 06:21 AM

MBSLynne

I'm not sure it would be great to have men in garland sides!

Really?

http://www.coconutters.co.uk/photoalbum2/gallery.htm

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 06:56 AM

Anyone want to see the true face of Morris Dancing.

Go and watch Greg and Derek Wood at the Jig competition at Sidmouth.

Fantastic father and son duo. (Father cycles the Tour de France hill climbs for a hobby and won Mortimer's "Oaken Thigh" competition).

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Bernard
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 06:59 AM

For what it's worth... members of Bolton Folk Dance club and 'Haywain' ceilidh band were amongst those who re-formed Horwich Prize Medal Morris Men in the early 1970s, and their wives/partners were miffed about not being able to join.

A women's garland team was formed as something of a protest, which went on to become Rivington Morris - who founded the Women's Morris Federation.

As I was a member of Haywain, and we played for their first appearances during some of our ceilidhs, so I suppose I'd qualify as being one of their first musicians...!

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Redwing
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 07:40 AM

Only a couple of years ago I witnessed a women's NW team - and a very, very good one from the North West itself who have already been mentioned - subjected to some extreme rudeness from a men's "North West" team from the midlands who were Ring stalwarts with a very anti women stance. I was appalled at this, it did morris no good at all.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Jess A
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:30 PM

As said I think elsewhere in the above thread, there seem to be a fair few individuals and/or individual sides who are anti-women dancing the morris (I've been on the receiving end of this a few times but, to be fair, not often, while dancing with Pecsaetan).

The Morris Ring itself as an organisation certainly doesn't seem to have a problem the whole thing in my experience - although we are an all female Cotswold side they've been helpful, supportive, and downright complimentary when we've had contact with them. And so for that matter have all the Ring sides we've ever had anything to do with. We've danced out with lots of them at different events and they've pretty much all been lovely and friendly too.

I wish I could understand what the individuals who are against women dancing are objecting to, but I've never had a discussion with anybody about it where I could detect much of a thread of logic in their argument, and when it comes down to it I can't bring myself to care that much. I love the morris and I'm going to carry on dancing it regardless.

I am awaiting Bromyard with a certain degree of amusement, where, to my knowledge, Pecsaetan will be the first women's cotswold side ever to dance at the festival. Hope we'll go down well.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:39 PM

I agree about Bromyard - indeed Annie Smith of Sheffield City Morris was probably the first female member of a Morris team ever to do Bromyard and that was not all that long ago. They were not sure whether to give her a ticket or not because she was female and part of a morris team. (Drummer).

And I understand you also are going in for the jig competition!! Good luck to you and your musician whoever he may be.

Now, how are you about all-male punk rock heavy thrash metal bands?

Should they not allow women in? :-)

Dave

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: ClaireBear
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM

I've often thought, if there weren't already an adequacy of morris confederations, it might be fun to start one for mixed teams called "The Morris Mõbius" -- whose slogan would be, of couse, "We're all on the same side."

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Jess A
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM

hehe I think if the boys want to play I'd rather watch from a safe distance :) and dance of course!

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Greg B
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 02:06 PM

Sounds to me as if some of the lads place authenticity over
having a bit of crumpet with their ale.

Misplaced values.

I once squeezed out some tunes for an all-female Morris
side which was quite keen to have male musicians.

Scheduling conflicts prevented a long-term relationship
with the side, whose musicians seemed none the less to be
'tired but happy.' Nutting girls and all.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 03:30 PM

Viewed from the perspective of performance rather than politics or promiscuity (which, to be honest, I might, if my memory serves me, prefer) there is a definite difference in the way most women's border sides that I have seen dance from the the way the men's sides dance. The former tend to go "tap tap" politely whereas the latter tend to display more of the hooligan aggression that goes with sexual competition (which is what is being ritualised, isn't it?) in the whacking of their sticks.

But there again few garland dancers convey the idea of the come-hither display that I believe to be the heart of garland (well, what do you thing the hoops with the little red bow at the top middle are supposed to symbolise?) and perishing few female Irish dancers convey the curiously Roman Catholic tension between restraint and sexual display that sems to me to be the key to their art.

And I think I've only ever seen one molly dancer who conveyed the insanity and threat (something about the unrecognisable in confrontation with the unforgivable), the ranting psychotic nature of that form. You sometimes see it in the eyes of the kings for a day in the urban street, up on speed and feeling invincible until the comedown. You don't often see it in dancers concentrating on their steps and moves. The information that follows is second hand so I hope it is right. Oddly, he was an East Anglian lad, of several generations, in a side mostly composed of students or recent graduates. He alone in the side had not been to university and I strongly felt that he alone was in touch with genuine roots..

That's the trouble with traditions, the aspic can get in the way of the true flavour....

Or was it the true flavour?

In case you were wondering, I'm sober.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 04:30 PM

I once played electric guitar for a morris side at a morris ring day in 1985 or so. I received many bigotted looks and comments - quite uncalled for.