The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 01:02 PM

Whoah! Posts in a forum now have to be necessary?   What a utilitarian perspective. Let me fetch my simple peasant's garb of sack cloth and tonight I shall sup on gruel. No longer for the world of unnecessary excess and mere frivolity. Come, brothers and sisters, let us sit in silence, and type only messages of great import.

If necessary means essential to the general good, or to the success of the activity in question, then anything that tends to encourage good grammar and punctuation in a forum where the only means of communication is the written word must be necessary.

Now, whether a post from someone who professes not to be a Morris dancer or a potential Morris dancer, bemoaning a supposed problem in the ranks of people who actually are Morris dancers is "necessary"...

But surely the whole point of an internet forum or discussion group is that it is creative and enjoyable. I liked the post comparing grammar and punctuation to music. It was a good point well made.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 08:25 AM

Malcolm.an unecessary post.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 06:45 AM

If you didn't use punctuation in your music, it would sound pretty meaningless and nobody would bother to listen to you. Oddly enough, the same is true of prose. I'm sure that you wouldn't insult your (musical) audience by playing incoherent music. The same courtesy extended to your (prose) audience would certainly help us to understand what you are trying to say.

Music and speech -whether heard or physically represented- both require the same disciplines of expression in order to make them coherent and meaningful. Neither is more important than the other; they are, essentially, the same thing.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:28 AM

Dear, Richard Bridge. You will be pleased to hear, I have now found a grammar check. I hope my future posts will meet with your grammatical satisfaction. When I was at school I deemed it more important to study music than punctuation, I am pleased to say I have had very few complaints about my music and will now try harder with my punctuation, yours suitably chastised.
Punctuation, ignoramus.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:31 AM

I am sorry but I am finally driven to say this. I have the greatest difficulty in deciding whether Captian Birdseye makes any valid points simply because I find his posts almost impossible to read and certainly impossible to read with any speed.

The conventions of grammar, spelling, punctuation, and orderly exposition developed to assist comprehension, and the abandonment of them hinders it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 02:35 AM

"Threatened to report to the Ring..."

Nonsense.

I was at a Ring Meeting many years ago (men of Wight) when a woman came into the room to talk to her husband. One side made a fuss and walked out. Everyone else made her welcome.

The side that had walked out went up to the then Squire of the Ring to register their displeasure. His response was two words, the second of which was "off". I heard it myself.

The Ring has no interest in what Ring sides do at non-Ring events. My side has been dancing with women's and mixed sides for longer than my 24 years of dancing, and we consider ourselves to be active members of the Ring. We do 2 Ring meetings most years, host Ring events and so on.

The Ring is not anti women. A few individuals in it are, and those individuals are considered to be figures of fun by the rest of us.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:34 PM

So your going to carry on answering my first question with respect to thirty years ago and you can't grasp the idea that women's sides may actually prefer it that way.

Suit yourself.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:38 PM

SNAIL.I said if a Morris side[that makes my question hypothetical].
your last question,As regards the situation in the 1970s,yes I have asked women,and the reason was because they wanted to dance and were not allowed to dance with men,some of the morris ring members were hostile and threatened to report teams to the ring,who allowed women to dance with them, so they formed womens sides.
women have that choice now,but that choice was not available until they formed womens sides,The Morris ring was denying them the right to dance with men.[the freedom of association argument,should not have disallowed women rights]
supposing the Morris ring had at that time,not allowed a Dancer to be part of a team,on racial grounds,would that have been ok.
the reason women dance in womens sides now, may have altered,but could still be partly affected by morris history,and the PAST hostility from the Morris Ring.
Your Second Question is in my opinion silly,but since you want my opinion[probably so you can score points in a discussion]I would say that all the time ,Male Morris ring sides insist on preventing women from dancing in a team with them,it has got to be o k,for women sides to do likewise,what is sauce for the Gander is sauce for the Goose .
It is clear from contributors to this discussion,that the Morris Ring has become much more liberal in its views.,and that the old attitude is dying away quickly.
LES b has said that there is an opinion being expressed,that eventually as the old guard retire and numbers of active dancers fall that the Fed and the Ring will merge,.
As the fed have 405 members and the ring 152,the merger could be because of the Morris Rings health, They are standing at about 28 PERCENT.
I have learned a lot from this discussion,and am pleased to hear that a lot of the old reactionary, anti women attitudes are disappearing.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:31 AM

Captain Birdseye

your questions are off topic,and are merely point scoring

They were direct responses to things you had said. How could they be off topic?

To my first question, you went on at some length about the situation thirty years ago. I'm talking about now.

Your second was in response to your statement about people being excluded on the basis of gender; nothing about quality.

So, no, you haven't answered my questions.

Has it occurred to you that some women dance in women only teams because they prefer to do so whether it be for artistic, social or political reasons? Have you asked them? And if they have that choice, why shouldn't men have the same? For those who prefer mixed sides, there are plenty available. All tastes are catered for.

Once again, what is the problem? (Now, not in the seventies.)

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Bill S from Adelaide
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:23 AM

In answer to one of the comments, there is a joint annual belly and morris get together at Canberra and in 2007 the morris managed to out-belly the belly dancers to claim the trophy.
This discussion has lasted for decades and still arouses passions, amazing.
I've actually joined the Ring 3 times with 3 sides as well as being squire of a 4th side. I also joined the Women's Morris Fed. One of the sides had a female musician and we refused to go to the Ring meeting if she couldn't go, so we found a meeting where she was away and couldn't go anyway.
I can remember the first revival female side dancing at C#H (Englands Glory) an event that spawned the first women's clog side at Poynton.( Only a coule of blokes walked out, the rest cheered a great performance). I've danced in mixed sides, dual sides (one side but male and female had different repertoires) and male sides. I'm currently squire of a male side that will include females when in kit. I can't dance clog morris because only females do that (though I have been declared an honorary female by a couple of sides!).
Morris is a broad church with room for all sorts but the overriding issue is the quality of the dance. Some mens/womens/mixed sides are very good, some aren't, there are events for men, for women and for both.
Now that's settled let's start to campaign for more women in Welsh Male Voice Choirs!!
Wassail

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:04 AM

the Captain is on tour in England regularly,Only last week he was in the company of Morris dancers,and rappers,he enjoyed the dancing and the real ale[sadly lacking in Ireland],
Morris dancers come from England to Ireland,And have been seen dancing by the Captain,in his locality,.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: LesB
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:29 AM

"from some of the contributors,LesB,and lynne, It Seems there is still room for a bit of improvement"
I am not advocating a free for all. I am just not particularly comfortable with the male only, all lads together, feeling that ensues. My particular problem is not in intigrating women dancers in the side, ( I see nothing wrong in male & female sides if that is what they want), but that we have a female musician & are therefore banned from ring meetings. As are our spouses if we want to attend the 'feast'.
There is an opinion being expressed that, eventualy, as the old guard retire & numbers of active dancers fall that the Fed & Ring will merge.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:11 AM

y
Snail here is a little bit of history,quoted from the morris federation.
About the Federation
There was a dramatic rise in the number of women publicly dancing morris in the early 1970s, with several female Cotswold and NorthWest morris sides forming. This followed a period of three or four decades during which a 'male only' climate had been allowed and encouraged to prevail in morris circles. The emergence of female dancers was greeted with some hostility by those who considered it to be 'untraditional'. Only the Carnival Morris of the NorthWest, usually performed by teams of young girls, had continued as an example of public female morris during this time. This itself had been considered a deviation from the 'pure' tradition, rather than a continuation of it, and had been virtually dismissed by some as irrelevant anyway. It must be said that, while morris would appear always to have been a predominantly male pursuit, it was never exclusively so.The idea of an organisation to provide information and moral support for these newly formed women's sides was first mooted in 1973 and, following a period of informal contact, the Women's Morris Federation was officially inaugurated in October 1975.At first, much emphasis was placed on the historical validity of female morris, both by its exponents and its opponents. Later, the opinion expressed by many was that morris dancing should be seen and treated as a living, evolving tradition which of necessity reflects the society in which it plays a part. To try to preserve it exactly as it is at some arbitrary point in time would be to prevent it from taking its natural course, so fossilising it.The Federation thus began as an organisation for female sides only. In 1980, it opened its doors to mixed sides and in 1982 it became open to any morris side, regardless of gender. A year later, the word 'Women's' was dropped from the name. The Federation has always taken the view that the dances themselves are more important than the gender of the dancers who perform them. It seeks to encourage all who are interested to experience the pleasure of morris dancing and to strive for the highest standard of execution of which they are capable.
Snail, why do you think the federation was formed ,because of male hostility,.
from the information, I have received in this discussion the hostility appears to have lessened,
Ihope that answers your first question.
your second question,was explained,in my earlier post when I said that good dancing was more important than gender.
your questions are off topic,and are merely point scoring,IF women had been allowed to dance the morris back in 1970 with male sides,and had not been prevented by morris ring members hostility,the present situation where women are preventing men from joining would not have arisen,and well you know it.
Yes I am busy, I have a gig tonight,and I have Pupils coming for lessons,so my time to waste on this is limited.
I am genuinely pleased to see that many male members of the ring have changed their attitudes and have become more liberal,a shame that a more liberal squire wasnt elected last year,perhaps the progress would have been even quicker ,good luck to you and I hope you keep enjoying the Morris.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:59 AM

But why does the Captain have a problem with this anyway? He has said he is not a dancer and as he lives in Ireland there are no exclusive Morris teams near him. Or are his local Mummers male-only? If so which organisation do they belong to?

I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:35 AM

The Captain is obviously a very busy man. He must have missed my posts. I'll try again.

Captain Birdseye

If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance.

To your knowledge, has this ever happened?

Some male morris dancers prefer to dance in men only sides. Some female morris dancers prefer to dance in women only sides. Some men and women prefer to dance in mixed sides. All categories are catered for. What is the problem?

Captain Birdseye

I dont have a problem with anything apart from women being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender.

Do you have a problem with men being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:09 AM

Fidjit.I believe your last comment is known as Flaming.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Fidjit
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 04:51 AM

I see that Dick still has his wooden spoon.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 04:23 AM

Neovo,what are you talking about,my OP is quite clear,it is a question.Questions are asked to get information.
Marje asked me for my opinion,I stated that I preferred to see good dancers ,regardless of gender,whether they be mixed or otherwise.
I started this post to get more information about how the morris ring is today,the best way to get information is to ask.
I do not have an impression of the Morris ring today,thats why I am asking,however history happened and the Morris ring were very anti women dancing[fact],that is what I stated,I ALSO said the fact they mentioned the FED AND OPEN MORRIS on their websiste indicated a change.
I try and use this forum to get up to date information[I live in Ireland],I find it rather depressing that matters such as this cannot be discussed in a more pleasant manner.
from some of the contributors,LesB,and lynne, It Seems there is still room for a bit of improvement.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:40 AM

I was trying not to be too dogmatic - believe it or not - which is why I said "Cotswold" since I have seen good mixed NW and border sides. And plenty of women;s sides have good young dancers under 20 - but a lot of the men's sides struggle - I know we do, mainly because most of us had daughters and not sons!!

Sheffield City danced with a ring side two weeks ago, and with a ring side and women's side together only three weeks ago.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:27 AM

Cpt Birdseye's latest post is telling - it seems he is basing his entire argument on a 20 year old outdated impression of the Ring. Things have changed in the last 20 years - for the better IMHO and will continue to do so.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:20 PM

I think the point of Border is less as a spectacle, more for the enjoyment of the participants.

That said, such sides as Powderkegs, Stone the Crows, et al, are spectacularly fun to watch - their raw enthusiasm coupled with attention to detail stands them apart from some of the 'also rans'... or is that 'also danced'?!

Folkiedave - the Earl of Stamford Morris are a well respected mixed side - and we also have seven very keen under 18s in the side. They were commended recently at Middlewich Folk and Boat Festival...

We regularly do joint 'fun dance outs' with sides such as Adlington Morris and Thelwall, both all male Ring sides.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:34 PM

A change in policy can never be forced on anyone,it is only likely to happen if there are not enough men to make up a side.,
What did upset me,was to see a male morris side dancing in Bantry in Ireland,their dancing was poor, I thought what a shame a good side are not here,to show English heritage at its best,.what a bad impression, people who have never seen Morris might get,when dancers can hardly get off the floor ,and cant dance in straight lines,or partly in time with the music.

I agree it could equally have been a womens morris side,I have seen a bad one of those recently.
Ring members,Refusing to dance with female musicians,and refusing to dance at the same stand as women ,certainly happened twenty years ago.I hope their attitude has improved,and that it is a thing of the past.,
the very fact that The Morris ring mentions the Morris Federation,and Open Morris is a step in the right direction.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:00 PM

Bang on Marje - IMHO.

I haven't seen a good mixed Cotswold side - seen a couple of excellent single sex ones - Pecsaetan and Windsor of course.

Seen some men's sides who's dancing would be put to shame by either of those teams and IMHO many of the best male sides are not members of the ring. Teams whose dancing I like to think is good.....I like to think a lot of.....Great Western, Berkshire Bedlams, Outside Capering Crew, Redbournestoke, Chingford, my own side Sheffield City Morris etc.

But those black trousers look really good on Pecsaetan.

http://www.pecsaetan.co.uk/gallery

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Marje
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:40 PM

I agree with the points made by Lynne in a couple of posts above.
I prefer to watch men dance morris, but am happy to watch mixed or women's sides too. But Morris-ey, you're so right about Bad Border being the lazy unisex option, it can be toe-curlingly embarrassing to watch, and is a world away from the likes of Wild Hunt.

I don't think it would be wise for anyone to try to change the all-male or all-female policy of certain sides, because it's not just a case of dancing well or badly. Women dance differently, just as they sing differently and talk differently. Some mixed sides can accommodate this quite well, but the best single-sex sides display an inherent maleness or femaleness in their dancing that would be diluted if they were to dance as a mixed side. And I really don't like seeing women in traditional men's Cotswold gear - those breeches and tucked-in shirts look awful on most women. It's almost as bad as putting a man in a Mother-Goose-style dress to dance Garland.

So I have no problem with Ring sides continuing to be all male. I do find it offensive when they refuse to dance at the same stand as women (and Lynne's is not the only instance of this I've come across) but I'm relieved to hear this isn't widespread. I'm all for a bit of diversity in morris and can't see the problem with single-sex and mixed-sex sides coexisting and offering a choice.

Marje

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:38 PM

lester ,you have a different point of view to me ,but there is no need to be insulting.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:25 PM

only half!

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Lester
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:56 PM

I felt like writing a cogent argument to put Captain Birdseye's mind at rest as to why a club that wishes to be for only one gender is acceptable but on reading the whole thread I would seem that he is, as my chum James May would say, a cock, so I wont bother.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:06 PM

Captain Birdseye

I dont have a problem with anything apart from women being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender.

Do you have a problem with men being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:04 PM

I am talking about traditional folk music,male voice choirs are irrelevant,as are female voice choirs, in the english/british folk tradition women can call dances ,do country dancing sing at folk clubs,do playford,play in ceilidh bands.,but not dance with certain male morris sides
Greg Stephens,I dont have a problem with anything apart from women being excluded by certain morris dance sides from dancing With them because of their gender.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 12:15 PM

To back up manitas at work, and others, can I remake a point I made earlier. My partner(female) runs a women's choir called the Loud Mouth Women. It is great. There are other women's choirs in the region. There are also male voice choirs. Clearly some people (well, Catain Birdseye) have a problem with this. I don't.
At Christmas, we have a special mixed sex choir for a bit of carol-singing. That's fun, too.To be frank, anybody who comes and tells us who we should or should not be singing with will get a short two-word answer.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 12:07 PM

Male voice choirs for one.

Ceoltas and the Gaelic Mod have separate classes for male and female singing regardless of the register, don't they?

The Baccu Ber in France has only boys and young men.

Javanese Bedoyo and Srimpi is for girls only.

There are loads more traditional dances which have a gender bias but have named a few actual traditions rather than hypothetical ones I don't have to search out any more.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:51 AM

"a bad male side will improve if it allows good female dancers to dance with them."

Any bad side will improve if it allows any good dancers to join them.

Male female or those that have had the operation.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:20 AM

"a bad male side will improve if it allows good female dancers to dance with them."
In the same way that a male voice choir will improve if it allows good female singers to join.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

Birdseye

I am not clear anymore, if I ever was, what your point is.

On the one hand you talk of a "right" to dance, but do not say where this right is enshrined; then you talk of performance at clubs (which, presumably can have whatever criteria they like), of being able to dance at ceilidhs, and why not they pay to do so, then you talk about morris as entertainment.

It really is quite simple. Morris dance sides do not have to have as members anyone they don't want. We were a mens side that danced with womens sides, with mixed sides, danced individiually with mixed sides, were members of the Ring and were vociferous in that organisation about the need for change. We were very selective as to which men we allowed to join because we had a philosphy about performance that we did not want to compromise by letting in those who were not or could not become good enough to meet our standards.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 10:49 AM

MANITAS ,Please tell us what other forms of traditional music operate a gender bias,women are booked at folksong clubs ,can dance and play at ceilidhs and country dances, can dance playford,can call for dancing,
my opinion is important because I am amember of the public,morris dancing is a form of entertainment,it may not be its only purpose ,but if a Morris side goes and collects money,they are putting on a performance,the better[entertainment and good dancing]performance they acheive the more money they will get.
Snail,all those original womens morris sides 1970,s were formed because they could not dance with men.,so they had to form womens sides
I dont need to state a particular case,as I was quoting as a hypothetical argument.
Manitas ,a bad male side will improve if it allows good female dancers to dance with them.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:27 AM

Captain Birdseye

The Snail,thats why a lot of women sides were formed originally[1970s],so that they could dance ,because they were not allowed to dance with the men[where have you been,or maybe you werent born then].

Actually, I was dancing morris in the seventies with Chanctonbury Ring and a University side that became Brighton Morris Men. Both of these remain men only. Around that time I knew the women who formed the Knots of May (Garland and Clog) and Cuckoo's Nest (Cotswold) both of which remain women only. Not long after, Ditchling Morris was formed as a mixed side which it remains. There are umpteen other sides within twenty miles. Nobody needs to feel excluded.

I'll ask again, do you have any evidence that anyone has ever not been able to find a side to join?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:13 AM

Anyway, the original question:

"does anyone know, the present health of this organisation"

Ageing, perhaps, but still the most long-lived of any similar organisations.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:00 AM

"In my opinion,Morris dancing should be decided on merit /ability not gender."

As an admitted non-dancer why do you place such importance on your opinion in this matter?

What about freedom of association?

"Morris dancing is the only form of traditional music that operates a Gender BIAS."

No, that just is not true.

"I would rather see a good mixed morris side,rather than a bad Male Morris side"

A bad morris side of either sex won't impove just by becoming mixed. The fact of the matter is that some Morris teams are better than others and their gender or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: RogerTCB
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:50 AM

Yes, there are a few misogynists (for whom 'womens morris' is an oxymoron) hiding out in the Morris Ring but their numbers are dwindling.

I know from experience that several Squires' of The Morris Ring have no difficulty at all with womens/mixed morris & have done their best to lead the reactionaries of the member sides into the light.

Very few member sides of The Morris Ring are actually active within the organisation (the same applies to the Fed as well). The two Ring sides I dance with are only there by accident and now its just too much effort to change & would provoke arguments between friends for no benefit. Both sides are male only because most of the members prefer it that way and the rest don't care. Because they are male only sides, they can be members of The Ring. Its the side itself deciding collectively that they want to be a mens organisation, not the Ring.

The Ring has never had an influence over either of my Ring sides choice of who they dance out with & both go on tour with womens & mixed sides without any difficulty.

Several years ago, both Ducklington & Ellington changed from male to mixed so the could continue rather than fold. Whatever Morris organisations they were members of before, they are now both members of the Federation.

The statement about Ring sides refusing entry to women has the cart before the horse - its nothing to do with the Ring & everything to do with the members of the side approached.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:51 AM

Treewind, if you Contacted a folk club/festival organiser,and was told, no its against our policy to book female singers,would you be annoyed?
Morris dancing is the only form of traditional music that operates a Gender BIAS.
I am talking about equal opportunities,that people should not be excluded from dancing because of their gender,that sides should be made up of the best dancers, regardless of their gender.
I as a member of the public like to see a good display,I would rather see a good mixed morris side,rather than a bad Male Morris side,
The Snail,thats why a lot of women sides were formed originally[1970s],so that they could dance ,because they were not allowed to dance with the men[where have you been,or maybe you werent born then].

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:31 AM

As a female, I see no appeal whatsoever in joining an all-male side. If I wanted to dance and could find no local female or mixed side, then I'd probably put the word about and try to start one.

I see no reason why an all-male side shouldn't be allowed to remain an all-male side if that's what they want to do. Allowing a female to join the side would change the dynamics of the side, of the dancing and of the whole thing generally. On top of which, if the members are dancing with the side because they want to dance with an all-male side, if females were allowed to join, some of them would probably leave, since they wouldn't be getting what they wanted out of it. It could bring about the decline and finish of a side.

Why can't we all just leave people alone to do what they want to do?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 07:24 AM

Birdseye

"If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance."

There you go again. Where is this "right to dance"?

If they don't like it they can form their own side - or move.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:44 AM

Captain Birdseye

If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance.

To your knowledge, has this ever happened?

Some male morris dancers prefer to dance in men only sides. Some female morris dancers prefer to dance in women only sides. Some men and women prefer to dance in mixed sides. All categories are catered for. What is the problem?

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:43 AM

Women move differently - its just a plain fact, their proportions are different, their limbs are jointed differently - and as soon as an infant gets up on its hind legs there is a visible difference between the sexes.

Ok, some men are definitely effeminate in their movements - my older son, 6ft 4inches and he works out, but he runs like a big girl's blouse - and some women dance vigorously, but all that has nothing to do with how the Morris Ring conducts itself.

Some sides were reconstructed after the first world war - according to the folk law, because some of the sisters of those who did not return from the war had assisted their brothers in practising the dances.

I don't know how accurate the song 'The Ladies go dancing at Whitsun' is - or if it is supose to include Cotswold Morris, but it does seem to indicate that the original tradition of dancing as part of the yearly cycle was carried on by the distaff side.

I had a number of elderly female relatives who never married because there were no men to marry. My grandfather was tiny - so small he was not taken for the army. He went to sign on with the other lads from the village, and had to walk all the way back alone, and slept under a hedge - he played Little Devil Doubt, but no one else in the play survived the war....

But recent history is probably of little interest to the organisers of the Morris Ring. It is their club, if they want it to be all male that is their privilage. If there are sides who make spectacles of themselves refusing to associate with women dancers - well there are greater mysogenists, and who knows, all this rapid climate change in the last hundred years might actually be due to women dancing the morris and not greenhouse gasses at all. All those glaciers melting - dead significant if you think about it.

If the Morris ring is eventually reduced to a few sides and some old men in cardigans looking after their library and other resources - well - so what?

If the Morris Ring gets political and takes over the government, legislates against women dancing or playing music - that would be interesting, so would the consequences.

We can't preserve anything for ever, and people are dancing the morris, perhaps without the discipline, or the finesse, or the rationale of the old sides, but it is not lost, just different.

It isn't something that can be controlled, people aged from two to ninety two dance on the sea front at Sidmouth - they dance like maidens or madmen - and anything in betweeen.

It's the beat.

The beat goes on.

I wonder why they called themselves the Morris RING....

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: IanC
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:33 AM

Yeah, I think we've gone off-topic here talking about individual sides. The thread was about The Morris Ring.

My village mummers team are members of Open Morris as we're not Morris Dancers and all we really want is the insurance (all the "Morris Organisations" badly let down mummers when they negotiated the "Morris Exemption" in the licensing bill and none are doing anything at all about it now) and Open Morris is simply the cheapest.

My rapper team are members of The Ring. Strictly speaking, we have broken Ring rules and should be thrown out of The Ring for letting women dance with us occasionally for performances. It isn't the team's gender orientation that I was referring to above, it's the organisation's. On that level, things do have to change, and they will.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:25 AM

Membership numbers do not necessarily imply that those in Open or Fed are mixed. I dance for two women's Federation NW sides - we don't allow men to dance with us.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 06:22 AM

If the side happens to be the only side in an area,and there is no female or mixed side, a dancer is being refused the right to dance.
In my opinion,Morris dancing should be decided on merit /ability not gender.
Clearly as the Morris federation,has many more members than the Morris ring,this is a majority view amongst people who dance the morris.
Morris ring 152members ,Morris fed 405,open Morris 92.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: Morris-ey
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:46 AM

There is no "right" to dance. If a team is male only (or female only come to that) then consideration of members of the opposite sex joining simply does not arise.

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's hea
From: treewind
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:34 AM

Thank you Dick - that's a much clearer and more honest statement of your views on the subject than the rather mysterious question with which you started the thread.

I don't happen to agree with that view, for reasons I stated earlier so needn't repeat.

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Morris Ring - know this organization's health?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:19 AM

But if it's a single gender team (of whatever persuasion) why would another gender person want to join? Or have I missed the point? If a man wanted to join a Women's NW side would they look good in the frock? Changing the gender mix would change the whole ethos and style. Form or join a mixed side if that's what you want to do.