BS: Something I learned about shotguns.

Subject: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: 3refs
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:30 PM

I understand that many see no need for firearms, so I guess this won't be for you!
I upgraded my firearms license here in Canada, so I had to pass another test. I didn't have to attend a course, I was able to "challenge the exam". I just wanted to refresh my memory on a few of the little things, so I borrowed a course guide and spent a few days learning the new stuff, confirming the obvious and remembering the things that are not worth remembering, flintlocks and cannons. Or so I thought!
When I was reading up on ammunition and I was kind of shocked when I read how shotgun gauges are measured. I thought that it was the kind of knowledge that I would have retained, like the sun rises in the east kind of thing! So I'm kind of leaning towards "I never knew".
How many lead balls does it take to make up one pound and that's your gauge. 10 balls=10 gauge, 20 balls=20 gauge. The only one that doesn't fit this guide is the .410, it's a calibre.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:44 PM

And the largest bore for a cartridge shotgun was 1 1/2 gauge. But the larger gauges are illegal, now ( in the US. ) They used to have 3, 4, and 6 gauge, mostly for commercia hunting. ( waterbirds) See Puntguns.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: gnu
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 02:59 PM

Them ain't shotguns... them's cannons. Puntguns is cannons. all in your terminology, I suppose. By the way 3refs, I bought the book and took the test myself. Too bad the authors didn't take the time or have the knowledge to get everything right in the text. There are a few blatant errors... no, I can't recall.

I do, however, recall the test. I was asked to pick up a revolver and load it with the correct ammo. Done. Then, I was asked something like demonstrating how I would deal with it on a firing range. I unloaded it and laid it back on the table. The invigilator asked me what I was doing. I replied, "Demonstrating that I do not use handguns of any sort and never will, sir." I passed.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Midchuck
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:05 PM

I replied, "Demonstrating that I do not use handguns of any sort and never will, sir." I passed.

Too bad. They're fun. Unless someone is shooting one at you, or trying to. Then they're no fun at all, but that's when you really need one.

Or so they say. That's a part of life I've missed out on. You can imagine how that saddens me.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: kendall
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:49 PM

My favorite weapon is a double barrel Parker shotgun, but they are a pig to store in my pocket.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:52 PM

Handguns are fun to shoot at a target. It's a whole different technique from a long gun. I sure as hell would not want to fire either one at another human being.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: gnu
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:18 PM

THE best shotgun on the face of the earth.... A 12, full and modified.

Now, I ain't taken any debate on this. My Bro is a World Champ Skeeter and his $11,000+ custom made Browning can't keep up with me in heavy cover. I use to take upland eyes on a dead run through the "one by ones". Them's one inch diameter pines one inch apart.

BTW.... that one on the link is one of the new ones and is near 8 pound. Fine weapon. However, mine is vintage and weighs in at 6.75 pounds. But, I have put 1500+ rounds through her and she's still mint. And fookin deadly. Even black on standing shoulder at 100m with rifled slugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: gnu
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:23 PM

Gee... I just looked and they don't sell a double trigger anymore... mine is a double... i like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:35 PM

I'd never learned how gauge was determined; I just thought it was an odd way of classifying the bore diameter. The 12 balls in a twelve gauge would have to be of the correct buckshot spec. My understanding was that with single-0 there would be less in a 12 gauge; what size gives you the number to match the gauge?

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: kendall
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 08:59 PM

Never liked the look of an over under.
00 buckshot has 9 balls in a 12 guage
0 buckshot has 12 as I recall.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:15 PM

Never use any more force than is necessary...

Yeah, the 12 guage is fine if you need that *much* force...

And I own a nice 12 guage pump but...

... fir the needs I have here on my farm my 22/410 over/under is all that most situations require...

Plus, it's light... It's accurate... And extra ammo fits under a flip-up plate in the stock...

Tell ya what... I can kill a deer with it or a pesky groundhog...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 10:41 PM

frogprince -

I think perhaps you're mixing two different things.

A 12 ga is sized so that twelve spherical lead balls the diameter of the bore of the barrel will weigh 1 pound. Another way of looking at it is that one lead ball the same diameter as the bore is 1/12 pound. A 10 ga is larger, so only 10 balls the diameter of a 10 ga are required to make a pound (with each ball being 1/10 pound).

There are relatively few 10 gauge guns around in my area, although they were much more popular some years ago, especially while black powder was still fairly common. They may still be used more elsewhere. 12 ga guns are by far the most common here, but my understanding is that smaller bores (larger numbered gauges) are more popular in places with less open hunting space.

The number of pellets (shot) loaded in a typical shell for a given bore size varies with the size of the pellets, but pellet size is to a different "system." Smaller numbers indicate larger pellets, but none of the common ones are larger than a "BB."

For "birdshot" - where the shot pellets are small enough to pour into the shell, if you subtract the "size number" from 17, the remainder is the diameter of a pellet in hundredths of an inch. For #6 shot, 17 - 6 = 11, so a pellet is 0.11" in diameter (APPROXIMATELY). For "buckshot" sizes that have to be "stacked" into the shell, a slightly different formula is used.

Commonly available shells also come in several lengths, with variations from about 2-5/8" up to 3" long (rarely to 3.5"), and of course the longer ones can hold a few more pellets of the same size along with more powder than the short ones. Increasing the total weight of the shot and the amount of powder to push it both lead to higher pressures, and for this reason some care in using only the appropriate shell lengths is required. You can't (safely) use a shell longer than the one a particular gun is intended for, although it is possible to use a shorter one of the proper gauge in many guns. (Some auto-feed guns are a bit finicky about the shell length, even if they might stand up to the pressures of "deviant" loads.)

It's also possible to leave out a few pellets in order to increase the amount of powder and theoretically at least to obtain higher velocity for the fewer pellets used. Within reason, this doesn't usually change the peak pressure by too much, but caution is advised if you're inclinded to "experiment." Some "different" loads are commercially available, or can be hand-loaded, but not too many variant loads are commonly used, so far as I've heard.

Especially since the advent of non-toxic (lead-free) shot, it's no longer possible to generalize absolutely that a shell of xx ga with #yy shot has exactly q pellets, although there's usually not a lot of variation. For a while after lead shot was outlawed for most hunting (in the US), much larger numbers of shot pellets for the lighter steel shot was common. The development of tungsten and tungsten/copper shot that approximates the density of lead has brought the "pellet counts" back down to close to levels that were common with lead, but there are still a few shell types that pack more or fewer pellets of a given size into the case. The label on the box the shells came in is the best way to resolve a debate about a particular shell, although you can also of course cut one open and count them.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 12:00 AM

Ayyee....yuh; as John immediately noticed, I really slipped into confusing apples and coconuts. I really don't remember putting any one-pound shells in either Dad's old 12 gauge pump or the 16 gauge I had for awhile. Never actually fired anything but birdshot in a shotgun in my life, and haven't fired one in many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 01:26 AM

It's bound to be confusing. The "system" was created by the Brits a very long time ago - If I understand it as I think I do.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 04:33 AM

"Something I learned about shotguns."

'Tis better to give than receive.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: The Walrus
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:18 AM

Just to be silly:-
Before Michael Ryan went ape in Hungerford and gave Thatchler her chance to pass a disarming act, a friend of mine* had an ex-British Army Vickers Machine Gun converted to semi-automatic, in 7.92 mmm** calibre, with a smoothbored barrel held on a shotgun licence.
Ah well, very little chance of that being used in a bank job!.

It's all in the way the rules are interpreted

W


* A re-enactor
* It went from the British to the Israeli Army, fairly early on.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: gnu
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 05:01 PM

Bobert.... "Yeah, the 12 guage is fine if you need that *much* force..."

Well, depends on the game and, much more than that, the bush. I dare say ye are not taken (I shall refrain from PI now) the heads off ruffed grouse in heavy cover with that there 410. Nor are ye likely taken 650 pound boars in their tunnels (said it before, never killed a bear in my life, even them what come after me).

All added up, I'll take "force". It's served me well over 1500 times.

And, I shot a single 20 guage from the age of 9 to 26... it was only after my old man passed away and left me his Cooey 12 that I felt I was ready and had earned it.

Oh, PC... I more or less gave it up a couple of years back. Now, I have Sony DHC 26 guage Mini DVD.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Naemanson
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:00 PM

"...things that are not worth remembering, flintlocks and cannons."

As everyone knows we have the right to keep and bear arms in the USA. The original intention was to make sure we could raise a militia quickly in case the Brits wanted their colonies back. That amendment to the Constitution has been touted and abused ever since.

My father used to build flintlocks and percussion rifles. He didn't use kits except for the time a friend gave up on a kit he'd bought and asked Dad to put it together for him.

Anyway, my point is that muzzleloaders, though they are outdated, are perhaps the best shooting that you can do. I have been interested in firearms all my life, an interest inherited at my father's knee. I have shot many different rifles, shotguns, and pistols, both modern and antique. Of course, modern weapons are more efficient and easier to use. They can hit targets farther away and are cleaner. Smokeless powder is just that.

But...

I have fired my replica Remington New Model Army pistol next to shooters with modern pistols. There is no comparison. A modern semiautomatic jerks and bangs and then you're done. The old style pistol has to have each cylinder carefully loaded with powder and ball. A dollop of grease goes over each ball to ensure that you don't set off more than one cylinder at a time. The percussion caps need to be pinched a little to make sure they stay on the nipple. When you have done all that you heft the weight of steel and wood, much more than a semiautomatic, point it down range, and carefully squeeze the trigger. After all that work you want to be sure that you hit the target. The pistol responds with a roar, not the flat crack of the modern bullet. Smoke and flame blossom from the muzzle and on each side of the cylinder. The pistol settles back into your hand and raises slightly. The other shooters look on, their earlier disdain turning to envy. This is a gun!

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: cookster
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:27 PM

10 gauges will knock ya on your bum!

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 11:11 PM

The only thing I know about shotguns is that they're Jatpanese...

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:11 AM

An acquaintance of mine at school used to use a 12 bore pistol. He had wrists like most people's calves, and the nickname of "Trog".

Another mate of mine from school had damaged one of his guns (don't ask). This was after he left school and was a bit of a hairy oik in appearance. It was the 60s. Entered a snooty gun shop in Chester, and playing the oik enquired "I broke me gun ma'e canyer fix it?"

"Aeouw, what kaind is it?" asked the shop assistant who had probably gone to Harrow and belonged to a local huntin' shootin' 'n' fishin' family.

Rocker turned his real accent back on (his ancestral home was a well known hall not far from Chester). "Like this" he said, and laid a pair of Woodwards, one damaged, on the counter.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 11:02 PM

SHOT-GUN BOOGIE

Well, I met a pretty gal. She was tall and thin.
I asked her what she had. She said, "A Fox 410."
I looked her up and down and said, "Boy, this is love,"


"Wait a minute, Bub. You got to see my pap.
He's got a 16-gauge choked down like a rifle.
He don't like a man that's a-gonna trifle."

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: philgarringer
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 11:17 PM

I just got a .69 caliber 1728 model St. Etienne French musket repro from Loyalist Arms this year. I can't wait for partridge season to open. Now, instead of not shooting birds with my modern shotgun, I can not shoot them with a French musket!

I was about 6 or 7 years old when I shot a 10 guage for the first (and last!) time. I was flung about 5 feet backwards, into my father, who was laughing uncontrolably. I have avoided should fired artillery since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: kendall
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 09:26 AM

I used to hunt deer with a flintlock. Your first shot is usually the best anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 10:55 AM

Re steel shot. I was told by a lad who uses it for migratory game birds that a full choke (12 ga.) will cause spread and pattern problems. I don't know much about it as lead is still allowed here for upland game. I guess the change to steel should be accompanied by target shooting to assess spread and pattern at various distances.

John... are the prices of "tungsten and tungsten/copper shot" high compared to lead? steel?

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 02:13 PM

gnu -

I haven't purchased any shot shells for so long that all I have is old lead stuff that I can't use anywhere (that I know of) in my area. I guess I'll have to melt them down and use them on the plumbing.

I'm not sure that there is any lead shot remaining for sale anywhere nearby. I frankly haven't looked at whether there are still upland bird uses that are legal, but the risks of getting caught with lead "accidentally" in possession while hunting where non-lead is required, even if you're not hunting the game that demands it, are - - - - "punitive." Most hunters I know who do any migratory birding simply don't buy lead anymore. Even trap and skeet ranges have mostly banned it.

Articles I've seen indicate that the "heavy" (they mean dense) alternative shot loads are very close to the performance of the old lead stuff, although there probably is still a slight penalty at "maximum range." Ony an idiot ever tried to use a shotgun at excessive range anyway. It always has varied with the gauge and load, so you always had to know what could/should be attempted with what you were carrying at the time. So the differences implied are more academic than practical.

During the early stages in transition to "steel" shot, lots of guns were introduced that claimed to be designed for it, and modified full choke configurations with longer tapers and such had a brief flash. My impression is that in current loads the shot is nearly always loaded in a "cup" that takes all the barrel sliding/compression in a choke, and only opens up after it leaves the barrel, so performance - regardless of choke - isn't adversely affected. (Wads for reloading ain't just a stack of cardboard and cotton anymo'. The new ones look like modern art sculptures.)

While steel was the only thing available, the longer (3" and up) lengths of cartridges became a lot more popular, to get more shot pellets in (or the same number of larger ones) as a compensation for the lower density pellets. The "reason" mostly went away with the tungsten/chrome alloy shot, that's close to the density of lead, but the longer cartridges seem to remain popular since it allows more flexibility in powder/shot charges, and more room for "creative" wads, cups, and other devices.

Since the last ammo I bought was when .22s were $0.02 per shot, and they're now around $0.35 (? I'll have to check), I'll have to do some research to get up to date on prices. Unfortunately, I doubt I'll be able to find any lead shot to compare.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: 3refs
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 04:01 PM

I knew as soon as I mentioned flintlocks and such I would unintentionally step over someones line(sorry). I own a .36 cal muzzle loader and I find it to be a lot of fun. When I take it to turkey or skeet shoots(among friends)everyone wants a try! After the smoke clears, you can have a look and see if you actually hit something. I use ffg powder and it stinks like rotten eggs!

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 06:37 PM

Steel shot's awful stuff, and will rapidly ruin a gun if shot through anything more than improved cylinder. There are plenty of better, denser alternatives - bismuth and various tungsten compounds included. Eley, Gamebore and the Hull Cartridge Company (in the UK) do some excellent lead-free fowling cartridges - although the price is pretty steep!

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 09:20 PM

All the current commercial "steel shot" shells put the shot in a shot cup so it doesn't touch the barrel. The low density of steel makes it relatively useless for typical hunting, but if you can get all the duck in the barrel before you start shooting it might be okay.

A quick look for prices is a little frustrating, as sales are so common, depending on seasons, that the prices are "volatile." Both of the following are from the same mail order source. Scroll down to the bottom of the pages for the prices:

One of many "non-toxic" shells:

Remington® Wingmaster HD™ Waterfowl Loads, The non-toxic tungsten / bronze / iron composition is 10% denser than lead and a huge 56% denser than steel.

Remington® Wingmaster HD™ Waterfowl Loads 12-ga. 3" 1 1/2 oz. Ammo 10 rds. $35.47 ($3.55 per shot)

A possibly typical lead shot shell:

Remington® Buckshot

WX2-1595 - Remington® 12 ga., 3" Magnum, No. 4 Buckshot, 4 dram equiv., 41 pellets, 5 rds. $3.97 ($0.80 per shot)

There does seem to be a difference.

It would take some research to determine if these prices are typical of local market in-season offerings.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 11:57 PM

I have a side-by-side 12 and 20 gauge. Don't need more, but if your REALLY must give me that custom made Merkel....

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 08:35 PM

What the heck... Seein' as this thread is movin' toward the bottom I figured that a Bobert story might jus' get it going...

So I was like 15, maybe 16, an' me and my buddies all loaded up our shotguns to go huntin' out in Centreville, Va. where one of my buddy's mom had a horse farm and milklions of acres of woods to get lost in behind the farm...

It was Lloyd Shelton, whoes mom owned the farm. Jim Clark who had his daddy's ol' double barrel 12 guage, me with my single shot 16 guage and Art Buckner with his great grand-daddy's lever action no-choke 10 guage...

It was also obne of them real cold days, like in the 20's, with no air movement and perfectly blues skies... I think they used to call them ecluded fronts but I wouldn't swear to it seein' as...

Nevermind that ecluded stuff...

So we'd been huntin' fir a couple hours an' we hadn'tr so much as seen a squirrel or even a stupid bird fir that matter... We was right in the middle of a pine grove with old' old pine trees with them broken branches and 5 inches of pine needles under our feet... You know, the kind of forest that when yer in it yer wonderin' just why and how the heck you got in it...

Like I said, we hadn't seen nuthin' alive to shoot at short of Llyod's mom's horses an' that was purdy much outta the question.... Then...

...tweet, tweet, tweet...

Yes, there was some kinda small bird in the top of one of the pine trees above us!!!

Now I reckon this is the time in the Bobert story that I explain fir anyone who is unfamiliar with shotguns the mechanics of the shotgun... Most shotguns have chokes on them that narrow the barrel as the pettets travel from the shell toward the muzzle which confines the spread of the pellets... Now a 10 guage with no choke is like yer perifial vision as when the pellets come out the muzzle they all kinda go their seperate ways...

Okay, so it back to tweet, tweet, tweet an'......















....BOOM!!!

Yeah, Art Buckner, without tellin' anyone had fired that ol' no choke 10 gueage off in the general direction of "tweet, tweet, tweet" and in doing so had brought down everything that was no longer green in that pine grove and so the four of us were completely covererd in anything from them pine trees that wasn't green anymore, which BTW, was a lot of debris...

Stuff was down our jacket collars and itchy and all that...

So we start lookin' 'round for a dead bird and didn't find so much as any feathers so we, after each of us havin' to almost strip down in the cold to get the itchy pine stuff outta our jackets and shirts, continues trying to find our way out of the pine grove and then....

Tweet, tweet, tweet...

BOOM!!!!

Tweet, tweet, tweet...

BOOM!!!

Tweet, tweet, tweet...

BOOM!!!

Tweet, tweet, tweet...

Click....

Well, folks... Unfortunatly, this is a true story... Okay, not exactly unfortunatly... The bird did escape... As fir me and my buddies... I reckon to this very day thatwhen any of us hear a shotgun go off it makes our backs itch... Okay, I really can't speak for the others but I sho nuff can fir myself...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 11:10 PM

So, me and Jim and Steve were hunting in a harvested corn field. We're walking line abreast, me with an old single barrel 12 gauge in the middle. Suddenly and without warning we were attacked by a fresh and vicious COW FLOP!! It was directly in front of me and so I let 'er have a load of #6 or 7 lead shot right on target.

Now, vicious cow flops tend to hug the ground, and when shot they splatter in a V-shape. This means that the guy who saves the party of hunters does NOT get spattered, but those to either side do.

Even though I was a hero, there were complaints. Loud ones. Finally someone said, "You shot it, you eat it." Fortunately, by that time I'd reloaded.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 07 - 04:39 PM

When I was a lot younger it was quite easy to get a shotgun license here in the UK - If I remember rightly I got one at 16, or it may have been 18. Used to go shooting rats on the local tip with a 410, which was great fun. I had a side by side double 12 bore as well though - Can't remember the make but it was not very good. Worse moment was bagging a racing pigeon without realising it - Them things can be worth £000's! Strangest was, after reading how to do it in an 'Alan Quartermain' story, filling a case with shot and melted candle wax. The accurate range was very poor but when it did hit something it blew a hole the size of a footbal in it! Frightens the life out of me now thinking what could have happened:-(

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Aug 07 - 11:12 PM

Something I learned about shotguns....

A recoil pad is a good idea if you going to shoot off a box of shells in a half-hour at clay pigeons.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: 3refs
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 05:01 AM

Out in the boonies, about 30 years ago, we're on a safari. Pick-up trucks and rag tops out on what is called Crown Land in Canada. And just so you know, we never shot a living thing(killed many a car though)! I'm sitting in the back of a 65 Chevy rag top. I have a single shot Remington 12 gauge. The one with the hammer just behind the breach. I decide to put the shotgun on the back seat and fire it to scare the shit out of everyone in the front seat. When my cousin turned around the shotgun was about 18" off the seat. He said "did you fire that with one hand"? I said "yep"! So he grabs this shotgun, puts in a 00 buck points it in the air, pulled the trigger and drove that hammer about and inch into that fleshy part between your thumb and forefinger.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:11 PM

Let me know next time you and your buddies are going into the bush, 3refs. I wanna make sure I'm at least a hundred miles away.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: 3refs
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:22 PM

30 years ago. Times have changed! So have I!

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:24 PM

Yeah, haven't we all?

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 05:55 PM

Small bore. Largest bore. Gamebore. Smooth bore.

How appropriate language can sometimes turn out to be...

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: gnu
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:27 PM

I was to use Gramps' 20ga when I turned 14. At age 14 and 15, one could hunt accompanied by an adult on a Minor's License after passing a Hunter's Safety Course. In the course litereature, Damascus Twist barrels were describe and discussed. I secretly showed my mother and the very next Saturday, Dad took me to a gun shop and bought me a brand new 20ga. I was as pround as could be. So was Dad, as they were on sale at half price... $26.50 (Canuck).

I still have Gramps' 20ga, pin removed.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:33 PM

I remember the Damascus twist, too. gnu. There were really pushing the vigilance on that when I took my Hunter's Safety course too. Must have been quite a few old hand-me-downs around. My 20 ga. was about that price too. A cheapo Czech break-action single shot. All I ever needed. Still have it.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Gurney
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 12:58 AM

A shot tower is pretty impressive in action, too.


From memory, the split shot that we used for fishing weights went:
Dust; #8; #4; BB; AA; Swan. Each half the weight of the next.

Subject: Need help putting a 20 guage browning together
From: GUEST,Going Gun crazy
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:18 AM

Can any one help me put my husbands 12 guage browning - field model - ejects from the bottom, shotgun back together? We took it apart and now when we are putting the last piece back into the gun (trigger portion), it will go into the gun all but 1/4" and then it stops. Last year a friend had to give it a pretty good little pop to get it in. But when we do that we are afraid it will break. It is not going in. Can you please help?

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: gnu
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:08 AM

Dunno squat about that one. Rapaire might know. He'll likely check in later today. In the meantime, Browning has an excellent website and I am sure they will help you... might take a few days...

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:31 PM

In my gun-owning heyday,a few years back and before I went to live with a SGI Buddhist ( they don't approve ! ),I had several shotguns, including a 20g Mossberg pump,about which I learned that pumps rattle a lot----must be all those loose levers and things !! I also had, for vermin ( pest) control, an Italian " Pedretti" fully-moderated ( full length silencer) .410, which taught me that such guns soak up a lot of power in the moderater, and will only work (ie kill) properly if used with 3" magnum shells !!I also owned a Pedretti No.3 bore ( ie .36 ) " Garden Gun" , which taught me that it would be much better to buy an air-rifle or a slingshot, or throw a rock at the rats, and my favourite gun, a 12g single -barrel ejector, hammer-action by NAACO, the North American Arms Company of Toronto, which taught me the value of having an ejector (it was very powerful !!) on a single -barrel weapon !! I also owned a very old ,and very pretty, Harrington & Richardson folding.410, which taught me the value of having a gun you could dismantle and keep in two deep pockets !!

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:15 PM

I'd take a yari spear over a shotgun (whatever model) any day. :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: gnu
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:39 PM

What guage sIx? And, how do they handle in a pine thicket? >:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

Standard guage will do in any situation gnu ... in a pine thicket the kudi yari works best ... rifles through the bush staight and dead on. Whilst walking in the hood here is the South end of SJ I prefer and always carry the Kikuchi yari ... when confronted by a deranged angry drug dealer the single edge of this yari always scares them away immediately.

yes the yari ... a lot lighter than carrying those heavy bulky primitive shotguns, and always does a cleaner job.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:20 PM

Sadly, here in England, we are not allowed to harm even one hair on the head of a deranged drug-dealer, assailant, rapist ,murderer, housebreaker ,or even hired assassin,without being IMMEDIATELY arrested and thrown into a cell by the politically-correct British Police.( Apparently, it is something to do with the "Human Rights" of criminals ). So we have to suffer in silence and impotent rage ----although I was once shown how to seriously injure somebody with a tightly-rolled-up newspaper, and I would like to see the deranged and demented British Police try and ban THOSE !! Meanwhile, my American friends, keep up the good work, and try to eliminate as many Assholes as possible (within the law, of course !! ).Roll on a British " Constitution " like yours ( We don@t have one, you know).

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:29 PM

My old 12 gauge Browning, best turkey gun ever made. I hunt deer with a handgun .44 mag with an aimpoint mounted on it. In western NY you cannot deer hunt with a rifle -shotgun only using pumpkin balls or with handguns. I could never understand that one.   For target I like my .45 colt and I reload my own ammo. Although I am licensed to carry a concealed weapon in 26 different states. I never do. I also own a .40 calibre glock, .380 colt. A dozen or so rifles ...

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

You can't harass the bad guys here in SJ either bubblyrat ... but in most cases they aren't going to run to the local police and complain about you.

olddude ... with an arsenal like that you expectin' a war to break out or something?? :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM

Bill
someday you will thank me ! :-)

actually I grew up in the PA mountains, Hunting and fishing were a way of life. A deer was a lot of meat we didn't have to buy since we didn't have much money. I don't hunt too much anymore. Spend much more time fishin

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:12 PM

I bet I will olddude !!! :)

I was just jivin' you you with the question ... here where I live in New Brunswick (canada) hunting is still a mainstay of life for some.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:28 PM

Oh I knew you were Bill, New Brunswick is a beautiful place and great for a sportman

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 05:24 PM

What I know about shotguns--any guns for that matter--is that there's a right end and a wrong end to be on the end of. The wrong end's the one ya don't wanna be on.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 05:31 PM

Amen

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Gurney
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM

The first lesson I learned about them is better put in the song.

'First she spat fire, boys, and then she spewed smoke,
and she dealt me poor shoulder a terrible stroke!'

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 08:20 PM

Guage measure in relation to pounds goes back to muzzle loading cannon. The ball size was referenced to weight. 10 pounder, 4 pounder etc.
Stan Rogers line from Baretts Privateers for example:
"With our cracked four pounders we made to fight"

No this makes it a music thread so it should go above the line. :-}

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: gnu
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:30 PM

Y'olddude... "In western NY you cannot deer hunt with a rifle -shotgun only using pumpkin balls or with handguns. I could never understand that one."

Come on up to New Brunswick where the biggest Virgina White Tails live and let me take you up in the deer woods. We'll take a drive along the Salmon River Limits Lumber woods main road past Camps 502 & 503. There's miles and miles of lumber roads (thousands of miles) all at NxxW and SxxE. Depends on the year, of cousre. But, the deal is... there are no roads less than 500m long... and there are so many assholes with sniper rifles and high powered scopes that it ain't safe to be anywhere but in the bush. The deer are safer than you are driving along a road up there.

I blame all these huntin shows on the redneck TV. I am like most hunters. I was taught how to put food on the table when I was young. I was taught to take nothing but the meat... everything else was taken back to where the deer was taken and a prayer was said. But, these here rednecks on the TV with their antler envy are gettin inexperienced yuppies with big wallets ta buy fancy ass guns what can shoot well over 500m... only problem is, the yuppies can't.

Sorry... rant over.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:41 PM

I hear THAT gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:41 PM

Gnu
you are completely right on. We never took anything we didn't eat. shotgun only in Western NY I agree with because it is so flat here and it is much safer. My argument to the game commission was but you allow handguns like a Thompson Contender with a 14 inch barrel that shoots a rifle round, that doesn't make sense.

I would love to drag out my old ott six and give er a hunt. It is always a pleasure to hunt with a sportsman and not those guys that go to the tame game farms on TV. I never understood that one. I never hunted for horns either, for our family it was for food when I was a kid.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: kendall
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:50 PM

Gnu, I don't know what the record is for a deer in NB, but in Maine it is 388 pounds. That is one hell of a deer!

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:41 PM

I am the same way, olddude. It is still about the meat for me. And taking the does is a much better deer management practice. These yahoos for whom a rack is a measure of manhood bother me.

Did anyone answer the question?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:52 PM

Er, in answer to the question above, the action on most guns is under a lot of tension, so when you've dismantled it and then try to put it back together, you'll often find that the through-screws and trigger-guard screws don't tighten fully home.
Don't force them, as you'll cam out the slots and wreck the screws.
Ideally take the piece to a gunsmith and get them to do the job, but if you can't, then use a vice with strips of 4mm lead over the jaws to tighten the top and bottom of the action. You will probably need to use hardwood packers to get the jaws to exert their pressure only on the action and not on the stock (vital if you don't want to shag the woodwork) and to allow access to the screws, and you will almost certainly need a screwdriver that is an exact fit to the slot. If necessary, sacrifice a new, oversized, screwdriver by regrinding it on a wheel and tempering it so it is a perfect match for the screw.
If in the slightest doubt, get a gunsmith to do the work - it'll cost you less than a couple of beers and your gun will be safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: gnu
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:11 AM

Wow Kendall. That is one BIG deer. I have no idea what the record is here.... just said that fer attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Something I learned about shotguns.
From: gnu
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:16 AM

Hehehe... a Newfy buddy of mine asked me how much a big buck would weigh. I said anything over 250 is considered pretty big. He said, "Yeah, that would be a decent quarter a mooze."