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Music, Politics and Mudcat
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Subject: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 17 Apr 99 - 01:20 AM I know that a few Catters are probably cringing and cursing under their breaths upon seeing this, and thinking:"songs, you dough-head! This forum is about songs, period." However, I also think that enough of us truly enjoy the related (and sometimes un-related) discussions that pepper the threads, and I wanted to share some of the reasons why knowing each other's "take" on issues has become so important to me. I'm not going to bring up any specific "hot points", so it should scoot down the list and disappear quickly.
It often seems that the only people who take the time to phone a radio show or join a "net" discussion have "set-in-stone" agendas, and filter all their opinions through it. The result being endless repetition of "right-left" dogma. To paraphrase Joe O. "it's downright 'teejus," and many of my friends have given up on even reading or watching the news. In a way I can't blame them. So why is it different and so much more interesting on the "cat"? I think it's plainly and simply the "folk music connection". People who take the time to search for non-conformist music, rather than lap up what's handed to them on TV and (most) radio, are probably less satisfied with the status quo in a number of other areas as well. I suspect their opinions are formed by a fair amount of "self-searching", and surely this makes for better understanding, even when we disagree.
The music will always be primo with me, and I love reading the threads because of their diversity. In the areas where I feel I've invested enough to have a valid point; I contribute. Needless to say, the silly humour (which is obviously not to everyone's taste) can be irresistable to me, cause it's just so darn hard to find, these days......But, politics and music will be forever entwined for me. Blame Seeger, or MacColl, or Ochs, for getting me started, but folksongs have helped me understand human situations better for over thirty years now. Not just political songs either. My (probably obsessive ) love for old time country music resulted in numerous trips to the South, and a much better understanding of people and places than I'd had from just reading Northern newspapers (this was in the late 60s). The stories and locations mentioned in British ballads gave me an interest in history that was certainly dormant before, and Gypsy music started me reading about the Romany culture which I'd never even heard of before.
It seems to me that "issue" threads are outnumbered many times over by purely musical ones (and that is as it should be) but I hope that enough folks like the "other kind", so that they continue. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: DonMeixner Date: 17 Apr 99 - 01:40 AM Rick, Many of us veterans of the 60's Folk Scare are still as political as ever. I am more thoughtful perhaps of where I stand but when I resolve to make a stand I am steadfast. Just like in the 60's. My heroes are still Paxton and Ochs and Malvina and anyone else willing to take a stand. Even an unpopular one. I think if I learned nothing from Pete Seegar and Tom Paxton over the years it is this. Diference of opinion is good. Opposing political beliefs are fine. It is dishonesty, hypocracy, hubris, and unreasoned thought that are the real enemies. Given the choice between an honest conservative and a dishonest liberal in office, I'll take the conservative everytime. So would have Phil Ochs, he said so often enough. You can change the mind of an honest man, but you can't turn the heart of a crook. ( There, more politics than I've spoken in years.) Politically I find I'm neither republican or democrat anymore, I have a too highley refined sense of the silly to be a libertarian, I guess I'll just be a libertine. Don |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: LEJ Date: 17 Apr 99 - 02:05 AM I sure enjoy a good political discussion. I enjoy a good argument even more, as long as it proceeds in a logical fashion. If there is a thread topic that engenders a discussion that I feel strongly about, I am not shy about jumping onto the soap box with both feet. Those I am arguing with probably realize that only makes me a better target anyway.The honest airing of deeply held beliefs is what our country (yes and Canada, Britain, Iceland, Brazil not to forget Ahia) is about. And I sure think there is room on the Mudcat for it. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Night Owl Date: 17 Apr 99 - 04:40 AM I found mudcats while searching solely for "traditional" folk and blues music web sites. I got HOOKED on Mudcats because of the diversity of geographics, political perspectives, and good-natured HUMOR. Part of the uniqueness and fun for me is that when the discussion involves political disagreement....someone invariably makes a reference to a song, whose lyrics are right on target. The humor is universal and good-natured in intent!! I think if we didn't discuss "politics", or the reality (as each of us sees it) of life's events, I would wonder about the source of our individual root interest in "folk" music. One of the things I found here, is the same acceptance and respect for other human beings that was common in coffeehouses and Folk Festivals in the sixties...respect for the history and stories and diversity, and respect for those human beings who, quivering, got up the nerve to share their music at open mike nights! The understanding, that everyone starts somewhere musically, that even if the music was baaad from a beginner on open mike night, the commitment and passion was there, to be nurtured, developed and respected. Its beyond my comprehension to understand how we could ever separate "Folk" music from personal and political life events that "Folks" experience. Nuff said, I assume my hoof is in my mouth up to the hocks!!! |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Margo Date: 17 Apr 99 - 04:54 AM I'm glad you started this thread, Rick. I was feeling somewhat bashed after reading in the "is anyone as scared as I am" thread. Don: I'm glad you pointed out the importance of looking at character and not just party. Speaking of politics and music, I heard a wonderful song at song circle. It was an old Scottish song, and was tongue in cheek and anti-British. I will have to find out what it was and see if you all know it. Margie |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Banjeray (inactive) Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:59 AM I think the very things that that are listed in the previous five posts, plus whatever any subsequent post will add, are what make up the very basis of what I know as Folk Music. Just the name itself implies "music of the Folk". Without a discussion of all these various elements, all the things we have been told for years one should not discuss, ie; religion, politics, sex, etc. our understanding of the music would suffer. I am all for the original concept of this thread, bring up whatever subject you feel is important to you and someone, sooner or later will connect it to a song! Said song may not be a "true" folk song, it may have its roots in old time or country and western, most of which of the older C&W songs were based on the human experience. Let's keep on keeping on, and lets not lose our sense of humor either, sometimes thats all we have to get us through hard times. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:29 AM Thanks, Rick, for expressing it so well! For me, politics, life issues, the whole catastrophe, is rolled into one bag and folk music is the framework. The 'cat is a community, or has evolved into one, which means there will be a diversity of opinions, topics, and personalities. Folk music is the main topic- but don't call the other stuff digression, for me it's part of the package! |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbc Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:47 AM I'd like to second what Rick said about the mainstream media. I usually just avoid it, because I assume it is biased. Although Mudcatters were, initially, brought together by our love of music, I think of us as a community of multi-faceted individuals. I may not have much to say on these topics, but I really appreciate hearing others' thoughts. I particularly like being able to hear the opinions of "real" people from various countries. I think the view in the U.S. is too narrow. I have a 17-yr old son, who is precious to me. With talk of re-instating the draft, I need to know what's going on! bbc |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbc Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:51 AM P.S.--Guess we were writing at the same time or I wouldn't have bothered posted such similar thoughts! bbc :) |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 17 Apr 99 - 10:13 AM Rick, Thanks Rick for starting this thread. As you know, I am never shy about stating my opinion and the discussions are what I really love aboutthe 'Cat; they are lively, informative, and fun. I don't believe anything in life is black and white; there are mostly gray areas. To try to compartmentalize life rarely works, i.e. "it's all one big ball of wax". The Mudcat and the friends I've made here are part of my life which does not go away when I disconnect the physical link. My family has come to relish the next installment of Mudcat news on all things important to us in these threads. Let's keep it up! Oh, and Rick, did you really think we would let this live just a short time and let it sink to the bottom?**Grin*** katlaughing/katlaf
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Allan S. Date: 17 Apr 99 - 10:58 AM Why are all the Political "Folk Songs" Left wing??? Can't think of any ones right of center.Aren't folks who work for a living and satisfied with there lot also FOLK??? How about a balance. THere fore I see music being used as a political tool. To quote Lenin "usefull Idiots". Mention that one is interested in Folk Music and you are branded as a Left Wing Pinko WHY. Allan |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Big Mick Date: 17 Apr 99 - 11:01 AM Not a chance, Friend Fielding!!!!! Why do I get this mental image of my cyber buddy Rick sitting at his keyboard chuckling right now?? I must say that I am always amused when I hear the comment "Let's stay with the music, people........." in a forum on folk music forum. Folk music is always inspired by the lives of people (folks) and the events that affect them. And those that think this is a phenomenon of the 60's are misinformed. Music has always been used to comment on political events of the day. Gutheries best music were his songs that commented on issues. Irish and Scottish folk music has always had a large body of political commentary. My opinion is that the thing that makes the Mudcat distinct is its diverse opinions and respectful discussion of issues. These discussions are so valuable because they lend context to the songs we sing. Otherwise they are just words on a page. Want to know how valuable they are? Go back and do a forum search on the following titles. Read the threads all the way through. Sometimes they start slow and develope, but they are a primer on the Mudcat and why we need discussion of controversial ideas. It is what instructs us in our roles as bards of the modern era. I would not want the 'Cat to be exlusively or even majorly a discussion forum on issues. It is a music Forum. But I feel it is these discussions, with a healthy dose of friendship and respect that keeps our town unique. Check out some of these and others and you will know what I mean. Has anyone the Courage Now? Why We Sing Man From The RUC Back Home in Derry Cheer me up, Please Self Righteous Prats Banned Songs Loyalist (Ulster) songs Songs about the Vietnam War James Connolly/Lochnagar There are many more threads that you could check out, these are just recollections. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Big Mick Date: 17 Apr 99 - 11:54 AM Well, Allan, first off, take your hat off when you say Left Wing Pinko's!. We are left wing pinkoes!! he said proudly with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Actually, NOI, but you need to research the subject before you make gratuitous assertions. I would suggest that if the only folk music you hear is that which would be branded left wing, then perhaps widening the selections you listen to would be useful. Any effort to search the DT, or do forum searches, will find you songs which will support almost any view, conservative or left wing that you would like. I will admit that a majority of the music in our genre will be more liberal than not due to it being inspired by events and political happenings to everyday folks. In folk music the artist generally seeks to question events or portray happenings that affect people, for good or bad, in a significant way. All the best, Big Mick, who rather likes being called a left wing Pinko. Yo, Mick, ya gotta close boldface type with a slash, like this: </b>. I fixed it fer ya by adding the slashes. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Big Mick Date: 17 Apr 99 - 11:58 AM Sorry about the bold face, but I meant it to end at the end of the first sentence, and then just the word "are" in the second sentence. Anyone with a magic button can fix that and I won't be offended in fact I would be greatful. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 17 Apr 99 - 01:15 PM Allan, I think Mick makes some good points about the political direction in folk music. Heather just asked me "Aren't there any "angry right wing songwriters"? Of course there are, but they don't gear their material to the "folk music" audience. There have been many songs poking fun at "peaceniks", do-gooders, and bleeding heart liberals ('fraid I'm one of them..but a cynical one) over the years. Groups like "Up With People", "The Geezenslaw Bros.", and a number of bluegrass bands have written and played right-wing songs in a folk style. Vin Garbutt, who has one of the finest voices I've ever heard, has a very edgy take on many issues dear to lefties, but works (constantly) in folk venues. To mis-quote Don a bit, "I (Rick) would rather discuss issues with an intelligent conservative than a dorky leftie". And I'd much rather go to a Garbutt concert (knowing that we strongly disagree on many things) than one by someone who parrots a party line and performs badly. I'm not sure how much "contemporary" folk you listen to but many points of view are out there.(especially these days) Thanks for responding. rick |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Apr 99 - 02:46 PM Geez Rick...After starting this thread I now see the relationship between you and your brothers Reg, Reg, and Reg. If you believed that this sucker was gonna' "scoot on down the list" you are the dumbest ass in two countries. Gladly, I know you aren't (however I think you may be making a mistake offering those '48 Hudson Mudflaps for a lefty Fender acoustic)!!! This has already gotten the 'catters going and it should. I'm with Mick in figuring you're sitting back and getting a good laugh over this. A great topic my friend. I cannot divorce my love of folk and my political interests...just not possible. Most of us came to folk music at an early age when questioning authority and bits of rebellion are simply part of the teen years of any generation. The fact that so many of us are 50ish and came of age in turbulent times explains why Mudcat threads are a mix of both music and politics. I don't see that mix as being out of proportion. Folk music has always been a part of any movement for change and progress. Perhaps the difference here at the 'Cat is the number of "left-wing pinkos" who are not 20, but 50, which doesn't exactly reflect the "normal" trend to become conservative as we get older. What's the old saying about being liberal when you're young, but anyone NOT conservative as they age is a fool. To hell with that!!! I'm most prone to describe myself as an aging 60's radical...if I have a conservative lean at all it is only in the scope of what I can accomplish, not why I should. Folk music has been a part of me and a part of change in areas that have so much a part of my life. I was successful in the corporate world, yet always uncomfortable. The day I looked in the mirror and asked myself, "What the hell happened to ME," the discomfort began to ease. My increased playing and building eased the transition back to the person I was. Prior to that my music had been relaxing but not much else since becoming Eddie Exec.......Once again it is now motivational and therapeutic. I want my kids to remember the Old Man as someone who held true to the beliefs he had, yet was always willing to challenge those beliefs and listen to others point of view; as a person who stood up for the rights of everyone to hold their beliefs;and as a fighter for what he believed to be the truth. They'll probably also remember that Dad always had a song or two that went along with it. As to humor, well.......I often have Good Humor, had one last night as a matter of fact. The local "Shoot and Scoot" is now carrying the brand so I had a plain one, just chocolate coated and.......Sorry, wrong humor. Music is tied to that too, always has been. In "Peter and the Wolf" the trombone has the best lines, but the bassoon part is far funnier. Alright look, if my often obscure, bizarre, raunchy, and sarcastic sense of humor offends you...just skip my posts. WOW!!! What a great sentence and what a polite way of saying -- Bugger Off! But humor has also protected me from the rage of daily existence in a world rife with inhumanity and cruelty. For the umpteenth time (and I'm sorry) I quote George Gordon (Lord Byron):
"If I laugh at any mortal thing,'tis that I may not weep." My Best to All---except to Rick for starting this thread and Mick for being a left wing pinko. As soon as I get off the Net I'm calling the John Birch Society (cute song too..in the DT I think) catspaw
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbelle Date: 17 Apr 99 - 03:38 PM As a 50ish folkie, I've never thought of myself as left wing pinko or radical right. I simply believe that some things in life are morally and ethically right and morally and ethically wrong. Injustice and inhumanity are wrong; fighting against injustice and inhumanity are right. I register with a political party because I believe in voting, although sometimes it seems I'm wasting my time. Nowadays, I most often vote against something as opposed to voting for something. I definitely take issue when individuals are labeled as "leftwing" because we believe people should be treated with dignity. Folk music has always been used as a venue for speaking out; unfortunately often the words go unheard, sort of like "the beat is kinda funky; don't think I can dance to it." Well, that's enough for now. Opinions are good; disagreements are healty; sometimes agreeing to disagree is essential. moonchild |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 17 Apr 99 - 03:53 PM Kindred souls, all, I love thee so Like minds, rampant Threads, wander, Focus, then ramble, Kathleen LaFranceTHIS THREAD EXPLAINS SO MUCH OF WHY I AM PROUD TO CALL MYSELF A MUDCATEER AND PINKO LIBERAL!!!!!**GRIN** Also, my parents were proof a long time ago against the adage about age and growing conservative. They were, Dad still is, very liberal and raised us so; and, thankfully none of us felt the need to rebel against that and go conservative! I do love you, the Mudcat community. Thanks for being my friends. katlaughing/katlaf |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Apr 99 - 04:14 PM Catspaw, bless you, you make a lot of sense. (Although I still disagree those who defend humor that puts other people down - it's not enough to tell people to ignore insults because they're meant in fun. It's a matter of balance, and thinking about whether other people will feel hurt by your words. But anyhow, that's now what I was going to talk about,and let's not talk about that in this thread.)I guess I mix together my religion and politics and lifestyle and work ethic and philosopy of life and how I feel I should treat other people. I think that's how it should be, and I think probably most of us are like that. I think maybe many of us share the same ideals, although we may label ourselves differently and we may have different approaches to those ideals. I've always labeled myself a liberal, Catholic-Christian, Social Democrat, pacifist. Trouble is, I've often found myself at odds with my fellow liberals, Catholics, Social Democrats, and pacifists because I have never strictly adhered to the ideologies of any of those groups and I've always tried to see how the "other side" sees things. Sticking too close to an ideology stifles us, because it doesn't allow us to work with people who see things differently. If we can't work with people who see things differently, can we ever really accomplish anything? Of course, if we're too wishy-washy about our ideals, we can't accomplish anything, either. I adhere quite strictly to the ideals of liberalism and socialism and democracy and pacifism and Christianity; but I realize that those are ideals we should strive for, ideals that may never be fully realized. As for religion, I consider myself part of the "loyal opposition" in the Catholic Church (and think of myself as every bit as Catholic as the pope I often disagree with). I feel obliged to consider and learn from the religious beliefs of all, from atheism to Islam. Somehow, music seems to be able to bridge the gaps that divide us, and it can allow us to listen to people we disagree with. I may not listen to you because I've labelled you as an enemy to my ideology. However, if you can sing a good song that expresses your point of view, I'm likely to listen and to consider your opinion. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:10 PM Well, actually Mick and Paw, I wasn't exactly sitting back chortling about this thread (until you reminded me that the Fender acoustic was lefthanded..now that's double jeopardy, and funny!) Just one of those late night solo thinking sessions, that get out of hand. Joe's point about seeing yourself as "something" but often "falling out of step with the others," hits home for me constantly. I sing for the socialists every Mayday, but I'm horridly disappointed at the way they always take sides in wars. (Especially the current one) Not one of the spokepersons has ethnic ties to the area but it's just automatic for them that "U.S. bullets-bad, Serb-bullets good". That's too much ideology for me. The songs I'll sing for them are anti-ANY-war. But will they listen? |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Margo Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:53 PM So I won't be bashed for admitting I'm conservative? I do often feel out of place here. I love singing and I love ballads and shantys. I'm a good performer and perhaps in those ways I "fit in". But I guess from what I've read I'll have to be the token conservative around here. Am I alone? Margie |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbc Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:21 PM For what it's worth, Margie, I'm an anti-Clinton-all-the-way, mainstream Protestant Christian Republican (sorry, katlaughing!), but I like to think that I am accepting of others' viewpoints. best to all, bbc |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:33 PM I'm anti-Clinton all the way, too, bbc, and I call myself a "Liberal" with a capital "L." What was Don saying about dishonest liberals? I think it's wonderful to espouse a political philosophy as a basis for action. My philosophy of choice is definitely "liberal" and probably "socialist" (well, "democratic socialist"). However, in real life, we have to solve real problems with practical solutions that actually work. Our philosophy can give us perspective and direction - but we have to negotiate out solutions that come as close as possible to working well for everyone concerned, for liberals and conservatives and even for moderates. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:34 PM As for me, Joe, over and over again I feel that my exact feelings are expressed in your threads (although read Quaker/Episcopalian for Catholic). Thank you for expressing my thoughts once more! |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Banjeray (inactive) Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:36 PM Wow, lotsa HEAVY stuff and other things over which to ponder....C'paw, I read with great interest where you consider yourself "an aging 60's radical", and here I thought you were just knocking on 50's door! 'Course just cause I was born in the same year as you don't make me a 60's radical, I still will only admit to 50!! And what is that about the Birch John Society? Are you interested in the preservation of wooden toilets? |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:39 PM Well, Animaterra, the Quakers have a little too much integrity for me. I mean, I really admire them and everything they stand for, but I'm not quite sure I'd want to live that way. As for Episcopalians, I feel quite comfortable with them, but I can't stand olives in martinis. Put an onion in mine, please.... (grin) -Joe Offer- Banjeray, get this straight: |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Allan S. Date: 17 Apr 99 - 08:00 PM HI Gang- Really a great thread Dont mind me I was a knee jerk liberal when young. but know I am somewhat to the right of Jengis kahn. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbelle Date: 17 Apr 99 - 09:03 PM Well ... if we're going to name our "politics," I'm a Jewish, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, 60's radical, hippie chick of the millenium. (Not to bore you with trivia, but to quality the last part of my statement ... father was a military "spook" and the suits followed me around for years to make sure I wouldn't be kidnapped. Not my choice of lifestyle, but possessing a tremendous amount of respect for father, kept my political/liberal views to myself.) I thank g-d daily for coming of age and independence. moonchild |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Apr 99 - 09:10 PM Thank you Allen. I thought I knew that one well til I was sitting here typing away and ZAP...left with nothing but essence...make that except essence(unintentional pun there). As I said, I hope my kids remember me for standing for the right to believe as we choose. The most refreshing thing and why I enjoy this place so much is that as we argue and debate and discuss, I feel as though I'm conversing with people who have thought through their beliefs and are capable of challenging them while explaining them...this is the level of thinking that keeps our minds open and creative, regardless of liberal or conservative leanings. Those are just tags to aid the less creative in their quest to classify things and reach a comfort level where actual thinking skills are not required. I really don't care what anyone believes, but have they thought it through or is it just atrophied rhetoric? Mudcat folks, in general, have certainly not lost the ability to think, all too uncommon in most of our society. So Margie, don't feel out of place here...you aren't. I've read many of your posts and you are a person with depth of thought and high levels of care and compassion...for me, THAT is the "essence" of Mudcat. And speaking of essence......General Banj, I had never been into outhouses except as required by nature and geography, but I have developed a newfound interest after meeting Rick's brothers, Reg,Reg,and Reg. I'm now into "Vintage Shacks" and I already have a birch one. I am however looking for one of Honduran Mahogany or Big Leaf Maple with an Engleman door and abalone inlay around the quarter moon. If you OR ANYBODY locates one, let me know and I'll check it out. I'm a man who likes to stick his head into things. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbelle Date: 17 Apr 99 - 09:20 PM "Atrophied Rhetoric" I'm adding that phrase to my vocabulary. I've often thought that, but never quite put it so succinctly. Thank you. I sincerely hope that no one would feel out of place, here. There are many differings of opinions, but I would hope no one would stoop to the depths of "folk-snobbery." moonchild
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Banjeray (inactive) Date: 17 Apr 99 - 09:30 PM Ah, Catspaw, I am glad to see that you are willing to stick your head into things!!(?) Huh..... Not unlike myself when confronted with a report that the wooden fence around the local nudist camp had a knothole knocked out and that something should be done about it. I immediately, throwing all thoughts of personal safety to the winds, volunteered to "look into it". |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: DonMeixner Date: 18 Apr 99 - 12:30 AM Hello Joe, I hope you don't thinkI was saying that Liberals are inherently dishonest.Thats farthest from the truth. My intent was to say Give me an honest individual of any politcal stripe( Or one opposite of my leanings) as opposed to a dishonest one who happens to be the same as me. Give me people of character evrytime. Don |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 18 Apr 99 - 12:51 AM BBC: don't worry, I won't hold it against you or anyone else, as long as they are respectful of my right to feel differently, although I do have to say I have never understood, in recent years, any woman wanting to be a member of what I consider to be a very misogynistic GOP! While I think Hillary would have been a much better choice, I am not sure that Clinton was ever given the chance, seeings as how he has been subjected to a witch hunt of almost biblical proportions since day one of taking office, but that is JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION! And, NO I don't think he should have played hide the willy in the Oval office, but I also don't think it was anybody else's business but the immediate parties involved and effected by it. SH*%!!!! I SAID I was never going to write another editorial on that subject, I got so sick of all the rpess beating it to death! I gave up and wrote several about it, about the same time Molly Ivins did. Magarita, I would like to believe that through honest and thoughtful dialogues such as these, people of differing opinion can come to meet on a common ground, called the Mudcat! Welcome one and all, who practise the courtesy and use the thinking skills mentioned above. Through your personal posting to me and your presence oin the threads, there is no doubt you are an integral part of the 'Cat! katlaughing/katlaf |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 99 - 01:37 AM Don, I read you loud and clear, and I agree whole-heartedly. Integrity is worth a whole lot more than ideology. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: gargoyle Date: 18 Apr 99 - 01:46 AM Conservatives....Are you alone?
Hell, No!!!!
I coulda, woulda, shoulda, oughta, voted for Nixon....and I would do it again....and again....given the chance and the citizenship. Friends have described me as right wing of Gingus Kahn....I click my heels together and get a tear in my eye when hearing the "Horst Wessel Song."
Thankfully, KatLaughing saved this thread by including some lyrics early in the post.
I rue the day...that DT tips the balance and becomes a "liberal political forum" rather than a site recognized by the U.S. National Library of Congress as a viable source of valid folk tradition and archived records.
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 18 Apr 99 - 02:47 AM Uhh...Gargoyle, thanks for the mention and credit, but I don't know of any lyrics I posted? The short "poem" in my first posting was just a spontaneous outburst of my own, but I'll take it as a compliment if that's what you were referring to as lyrics! If not, thanks, anyway! katlaughing liberally **Smile** |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 18 Apr 99 - 04:08 AM I guess I oughta revive the Pedandry thread: both posters above who described themselves as to the right of Ghengis Khan misspelled his name. Personally, I'm so radical I think a thread without musical content is sorta okay, now and then, and that brief digressions from a thread topic fall somewhat short of mortal sin. I also think Clinton is a poor excuse for a human being but that he should not have been impeached--not that I find what he did not impeachable but the process by which the country came to know about it clearly unconstitutional. I'm a lefty who thinks that Milosevic is a monster--but I'm an internationalist who thinks it's frightening that an Atlantic defense alliance can--with almost no protest--make itself the cops of the world. And I'm a cynic who distrusts the motives of any group of nations (including my own) whose primary function seems to be pimping for the multinationals who are raping the world and screwing the people whose governments they own. And if I could turn all this into a song without getting all preachy, I would. Oh, and I'm also an atheist who loves gospel music. --seed |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Banjeray (inactive) Date: 18 Apr 99 - 08:26 AM Seed, I too love Gospel Music, and I thought one time about being an Atheist, but come to find out them folks ain't got no holidays.....(TIC, NOI) |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Dave T Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:27 AM I normally stay out of these discussions and stick with the "purely musical" threads, but what the heck...Like Moonchild I tend to be a social liberal, fiscal conservative. However, I was a bit young to be a "hippie", was raised Protestant Christian and am a 43 year old man. I've voted both Liberal and PC (that's Progressive Conservative NOT politically correct, which I hope I will never be). I have to say, I've never gone so far as to vote NDP (that's Canada's socialist party). I guess I just don't believe in having a bunch of bureacrats decide who gets what. It always seems to deteriorate into a self-serving mess. That being said, I sing many songs that would be considered "left" and firmly believe in everyone's right to live with dignity, honesty and integrity. It seems to me that "left" and "right" labels too often cloud the issue and are used as excuses to either justify or villify peoples actions. Let people's actions speak rather than their words or political stripe. Thanks to Rick for an interesting thread. Dave T |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 18 Apr 99 - 12:08 PM In the interest of balance, I think it only fair to suggest that those who have mentioned Bill Clinton in a political sense, should tell us how they feel about his music. After all, none of us has played with "Fleetwood Mac" or the NBC Orchestra. Rick (who refuses to put "grin, grin" after a joke) |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Apr 99 - 12:24 PM Waiting for jokes about blowing things aren't you Rick? catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 18 Apr 99 - 03:16 PM Well, Lisa Simpson blows a mean sax and I think she's liberal! She'd probably be a pretty good prez, too! |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: The Shambles Date: 18 Apr 99 - 04:15 PM Kat You have at present a JFK clone, in the past a Hollywood actor. A cartoon character elected to the office of president next is surely not too far fetched? There is some great stuff in here but this hit home and I think just about sums it all up.. Moonchild writes. "As a 50ish folkie, I've never thought of myself as left wing pinko or radical right. I simply believe that some things in life are morally and ethically right and morally and ethically wrong. Injustice and inhumanity are wrong; fighting against injustice and inhumanity are right". In the thread about wanting more threads on songs, I made the point that I saw the content of the forum as a triangle. The music/songs at the top with the humour and the 'serious stuff' at the bottom supporting the top, for those are the reasons why we sing and what we sing about......... The music wouldn't make much sense without it. I suppose I didn't say politics specifically, but that was certainly to be included in the 'serious stuff'. I didn't use the word, intentionally for what I meant was more encompassing than the usual definition of that word and I think it can put people off contributing if they perceive a subject to be 'political'. It is also interesting that for some people here (quite naturally), the term 'political' means, internal US politics. That's not a criticism, just an observation. The 'Xenophobia' was not just a political thread nor the 'Music Therapy' just a musical one. I have received more knowledge from those two threads alone, than from practically anywhere else. The Kosavo threads are fascinating, as the events are happening as our reactions and opinions are forming and changing to them. I think we learn more from our reactions to them than we do from the information itself. It is interesting even now to re-read them from the start, to see how our thoughts are changing, as the true horror of it, is becoming apparent. I for one would like to keep that one going and I have started a new thread (and linked the old ones) to enable the conversation to continue there. There should be a link here. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 18 Apr 99 - 06:59 PM Jeezum, this thread has just exploded out of nowhere...! And it's a little strange to read. It seems like we're all putting a neat serial number on our political ideologies. As a Quaker Anarchist, I'm opposed to labelling (irony intended...) No, but seriously, I'm with Moonchild...you just follow your beliefs and don't worry about what the label is. I think the exception to that is when you need to see how other people percieve you, and then yes, it is good to know that you are pinko bolsheviss agitator. But most of the time, labels just keep people from building coalitions. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: LEJ Date: 18 Apr 99 - 07:15 PM Ethan! I agree with you (for maybe the first time)! Preconceived notions about our political labels and identities keep us from getting the truth squarely in focus. Alright, so this statement is coming from a guy who has only voted Republican once in 30 years...and she was running for State Treasurer...LEJ |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Pete M Date: 18 Apr 99 - 08:48 PM Labels only have validity in the mind of their creator. Apart from the fact that I know people who would like to have me "sent back to Russia" and others who think I'm a jack booted fascist, any attempt to apply left / right concept across national perceptions is ludicrous. As everyone has said, you can only follow your consience. I have no brains according to the dictum ascribed to Churchill above, but I think in using this saying, we need to bear in mind that pre Thatcher, an English conservative with either lower case or capital "C" was a far cry from the current political right, with (generally) a deeply held belief in their responsibility to serve their country. That this attitude is now dismissed by the "left" as paternalism and looked down on, is I think narrow minded and says more about them than their target. The only people for whom I still have an almost irrisistible urge to get down the AK47, are amoral self servers. All I ask of anyone is that they are prepared to accept that alternative viewpoints can be as valid, and agree to disagree. Having said all that I have no doubt that in the US I would be a "left wing pinko" and be proud of the label. Pete M
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: longhair Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:05 PM well, let me start off by sayin' i'm new here. i love music. blues, folk, old country, old rock, some bluegrass, and a little of a whole bunch of stuff. I hope i don't start out on the wrong foot here, but by looking over this thread, it seems i may be a minority. i consider myself mostly conservative. now you wouldn't know it by looking at me, longhair(hence the nickname), beard, earring, in my very early 40's. i just thought i'd let y'all know, there is at least one in the crowd. if i play nice, will you let me stay????.........:)....longhair |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbc Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:15 PM yes, longhair, you can stay & play! :) bbc |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:20 PM About 7 years ago I was part of a men's get together "group". There were usually about five to seven guys at a time, and we'd meet at someone's home to talk about concerns, things, triumphs, failures etc. I was invited to join by a friend who thought I'd enjoy it. These were and are fine people and I guess they felt that I was "one of them" because of my folk music background, and general "lefty" outlook. Within a few weeks our group took on a kind of "Lord of the Flies" dynamic (which was no surprise to me) and my role seemed often to be one part court-jester, one part peace-maker (often through humour) and one part "fecal-rearanger". I just couldn't help "overdosing on rightiousness" at times. They all read Robert Bly, and often seemed unwilling to even question some of his assertions. When the suggestion was made that we all venture to the woods for a weekend to dance naked and beat drums, I had to back out. I used to have to put up with bad drummers when I worked in bars...but at least I got paid for it. I'm afraid that some of us, even though we "know the songs", and would like to "join the band" are just destined to march to our own drummers. 'Figure there's quite a few of us on the "cat". |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Pete M Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:30 PM I reckon that just about sums it up Rick, every other bugger in this Caff is out of step - except me! Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:32 PM Hellfire, you don't even have to play all that nice. Welcome to the VILLAGE OF MUDCAT !!! Way back up this thread I said that labels are a convenience as tags for the less creative and non- thinking people to classify things...no thought is required. You all justify my faith in you by showing such general agreement. Moonchild, I dedicate "atrophied rhetoric" to you and you may use it as you wish. There is room for all thinking people at Mudcat...for the rest we can supply them with food, lodging, and tiples at the "Neil Young Center for the Terminally Screwed." catspaw |
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Subject: Lyr Add: UNIVERSAL PACIFIST From: dick greenhaus Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:43 PM Not to take sides, but I present (for consideration): UNIVERSAL PACIFIST
He's five foot two and he's six foot four
He's a Catholic, a Quaker, and Atheist, a Jew
And he doesn't love Canada, he doesn't love France
And he's selling out democracy, he's fighting for the Reds
But without him how could Hitler have ever conquered France
He's the universal pacifist, his placards all declare
_____ parody of Universal Soldier UNIVSOLD |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Margo Date: 18 Apr 99 - 10:05 PM Rick, the group you mention reminded me of Benjamin Franklin's group the Junto. He formed the group of leather-apron men to discuss philosiphy, different authors, and current local concerns. The group you were invited to sounds like it lacked openness. I have often admired Franklin for all his deeds. He never once patented any of his inventions because he wanted everyone to be able to use them. In context of this thread, I can say that I have often wished to see such do-ers as Franklin. Politics on a grand scale in my opinion, pale in importance to what we can do for ourselves at a local level. It all begins at home. The only thing I'm doing locally is teaching Vancouver's children's choir this summer. How that ties in I don't know! Margie |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:12 AM Margie, the big difference in us as we age becomes the scope of things we consider important. As a young man, I thought I could, with others, change the world. Now I'm happy with tiny pieces. You're probably aware that Karen and I have been active in children's issues for 7 or 8 years. We are foster parents but also children's rights advocates and active in areas of abuse and neglect. Almost miniscule differences made within one kid are reasons to celebrate, because the cynicism of age also plays a strong tune. It's getting tougher and tougher...ya' know, I've said it privately, but I may as well throw it in here too. One of the big catch phrases over the past few years has been, "It takes an entire village to raise a child." Well........that wouldn't be true if so many in the village weren't assholes! Sorry, but it's the cynicism of reality. Ambrose Bierce said a cynic was "a Blackguard, who sees things as they are instead of how they ought to be." Want to know the worst? We work closely with primary families that have often committed the most heinous acts...and yet we often see all too well how those things came to happen. One day you realize that, there, but for grace.......... Never feel that doing little things isn't doing a lot. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:21 AM Pete M.: Welcome comrade!**Smile** You say labels only have validity in the minds of their creator. which can be true, but unfortunately our world is so full of them, in general, there are so many who suffer because of this. My gay and lesbian friends are labeled and have to deal with the consequences every day of their lives, at work, in their neighborhoods, churches, etc. As had and still does anyone who is seen as "different" by any other group. I am not trying to pick on you, because I think you and I agree on a lot of things. And, I am NOT saying we, any of us, do that here at the Mudcat. I believe the only way we can overcome those labels and their effect is to educate, as I've said before, and to enter into reasonable dialogue with the so-called outsiders. By welcoming so many of such diverse backgrounds and ideologies, the Mudcat does indeed become a common ground, a leader, dare I say, a microcosm of how the world could be. bbc: I have to apologise for forgetting to mention that I, too, voted Republican, a couple of times, for a member of Congress in MA and a governor in CT, BUT out here in the sticks of Wyomin' THEY would be considered traitors to the Party, for being too liberal and reasonable to be GOP! I try NOT to have a strictness when it comes to voting, I vote for who I think is best for the job, or in most cases, which is the lesser of two evils.:-> katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:29 AM Holy Cow, what a group! Allan S. You only have to ask, and Presto! An actual RIGHT WING folksong is presented for your enjoyment. And Gargoyle old chap, if you drop by this thread again, finally there'll be something here to make you smile. Love the "cat". |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: gargoyle Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:39 AM Thank you dick! Most enjoyable parody
LaughKat - Who is "Lisa Simpson?" |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Pete M Date: 19 Apr 99 - 01:18 AM WAAAAAAHHHHHH!!! first Alistair now Kat. You're all out to get at me!! I'm going to lay on my back and kick my heels and scream and scream and scream until I'm sick so there! I understand that what I wrote came across like that Kat, but that wasn't quite what I meant. What I was trying to get at was the variabilty of the meaning of a given label to different people. Trouble with labels is that they are so damn useful as shorthand that we use them out of lazyness when they are not appropriate. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: hank Date: 19 Apr 99 - 09:27 AM I'm an Anarchist, plane and simple. Too bad there are murders and others in similear catagories that force me to not act in any way on those beliefs. We gotta have police, we gotta have defense (cause not everyone is christian or at least not a religion that is pacifist as a second choice. All those killing in the name of Jesus are not christian despite what they claim) There are a few other issues like the above that cloud my thinking too. Things like why can't everyone be nice. Why can't everyone pick perfect spouses to live with for life, and not have kids until they can support them. Lots of other things too, which in themselves are not overly bad, but when you follow them out, suddenly I either have to let someone starve to death/suffer too much (a little suffering is normal for everyone) and suddenly I have to agree to a little welfare just to stop, and then where does it end? (But if your a healthy adult who expects to get social security after it is bankrupt, don't expect sympathy from me, anyone who ran the numbers could see that the system couldn't work year ago, so if you belive the liers/polititians and didn't create your own way it is your own fault. Nothing is simple. I am an Anarchist, but there are issues that prevent me from acting on my beliefs. I guess thats why I never voted libratarian, even though they are closest to anarchist. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Roger the zimmer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 09:32 AM tho' the performers may be predominently liberal/left, a lot of the repertoire is narrowly nationalistic and chauvinistic, jingoistic, even. (Discuss: use only one side of the paper...) |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 09:43 AM Ah, Pete, I wasn't pickin' on ya! Sorry! I know you didn't mean it as a set and fast truth. Don't you dare just kick up yer heels, although if ya just wanna scream at us, go ahead!:-) Gargoyle: Lisa Simpson is the only erudite member of the Simpson family in the cartoon on television called the Simpsons. Her character plays the sax. kat |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Jon W. Date: 19 Apr 99 - 11:59 AM I consider myself conservative for a number of reasons: first, I believe that largely-unfettered capitalism/free-market economy is the best system possible under current circumstances - where the self-centered desires of the rich can produce (even unintentionally) tangible benefits for all. That said, I have come in recent years to regard unions as being a necessary counterbalance to the avarice of capitalists (although I believe that they have been somewhat misused). Second, I have no faith in the ability of the few (i.e. the intelectual "elite") to come up with real working solutions to the problems we face. That is to say I believe that only by allowing billions of individuals freedom to make their own decisions (and serve their own interests), will the world improve, and NOT THROUGH CENTRAL PLANNING. The Soviet Union was a perfect illustration of the abject failure of central planning (i.e. communism/socialism/statism). Third, I believe we need to learn from the successes and failures of those who went before us - if cultural institutions and norms have survived for thousands of years why should our generation throw them away as worthless things? Two such norms about which I have particularly strong feelings are the ideas of the sanctity of marriage and the sanctity of life. Fourth, I have a lurking fear that attempts to found a "world government" will end up being coercive in the extreme. The NATO (read American/British) action against Serbia is an example of this. I do believe that we will have a single world government at some point in the future - when He comes whose right it is to rule. I feel no inconsistency in my religious and political beliefs and my enjoyment of folk music. If I enjoy traditional instruments and traditional music, why shouldn't I also enjoy traditional values and traditional philosophies? I too had begun to despair that I was the only conservative Mudcateer. I'm glad to see that I'm not all alone. For the record I am male, 43, of Northern European/British Isles extraction, and Latter-Day Saint (Mormon). |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:08 PM LEJ--nice to be in agreement wich'ya. I think our earlier disagreement was mostly semantic... Katlaughing--Yes, everyone has to deal with the labels other people use to describe them: gays and lesbians are a case in point. But if we preserve those labels *outside* the realm of responding to labellers, then we become reactionary: we are letting our enemies define us. Gays and lesbians, unfortunately, have often been a case in point there too. Hank--Murderers are upsetting, yes. But it sounds like you are limiting your view of possible worlds to the platter that the State presents: cops vs. robbers. Welfare vs. Poverty. 'Defense' vs. Occupation. Might I suggest that there are other options?..............I've only voted once, and it was Republican. Goes to show. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:11 PM Kat, perhaps we should also mention to Mr. Gargoyle that Lisa is the only character on the show that consistantly shows compassion for others. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Peter Fisher Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:23 PM Going back to an earlier question about why much folk music has a left-wing bent, it seems to me that folk music is inherently populist. That is, it is music about the lives of ordinary people, working people, and generally expresses respect for and faith in "just plain folk." And a corollary to that is the populist distrust or disdain for large organizations, bureaucracy, authority, elitists, upper class twits, bosses, the rich, corporations, phonies, people who "straddle a fence, as only a eunuch can" (why am I suddenly thiking of Bill Clinton?), liberals who are devoutly liberal "as long as it doesn't cost them money, or affect them personally" (sorry for not getting the quote right, Phil), etc. Those fundamentally populist sentiments can be directed also at Big Government and brief-case toting bureacurats, in which case they take on a more right than left wing cast, or at least anarchic. Somehow it seems that those on the right, when they get mad, are less likely to burst into song. It also seems to me that the Right has been doing a much better job of tapping into these populist sentiments lately than has the Left (if there is one) or the Center, which is unfortunate because it means we then get populist rhetoric in support of policies that are fundamentally against the interests of the common people. Peter |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 01:48 PM " Jon W said: "Third, I believe we need to learn from the successes and failures of those who went before us - if cultural institutions and norms have survived for thousands of years why should our generation throw them away as worthless things?" As a woman, I for one am glad that some of the institutions and norms of the past thousands of year have NOT survived, as I am sure people of other minorities feel, too, esp. African Americans. Perhaps this is too obvious of a reply and maybe it isn't what you menat, Jon, but I had to point it out. This is almost like saying we should still be "bleeding" people instead of using the advances in medicine which have come about, esp. in the century. For me, evolution and enlightenment mean humankind is ever spiraling upward in consciousness, which in and of itself, requires a letting go of old ways and "norms" which are not for the highest good of all concerned. It is obvious you are writing from a Christian perspective, which is is your right to do and I do respect that. And, lest you think me prejudice against LDS, please let me tell you: my favourite aunt has been a devout member all of her life; my dad is married to an LDS member whom I love; I grew up with a lot of friends who are still LDS, and even was briefly married to a member; and, attended summer music camp at BYU, when in jr. high in Colo. So I am NOT prejudice. My only problem with the stance you presented is that most believe that that is what should "rule" all of us, Christian or not. As a liberal, I ask that I be allowed to practise my beliefs without being preached to by those of a different faith. I am NOT referring to you or your posting specifically here. Please know I do not intend any offense. What I had originally posted in this thread, was my point that almost all wars, traditionally can be traced back to a religious difference. I believe all spirituality leads to the same destination, just by different paths, at different levels of consciousness, and states of being. Therefore, my question, once again, is why do those who disagree about religion still have to kill one another over it? Why should someone else's religion take precedence over my own beliefs and dictate my life? katlaughing, repsectfully disagreeing |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 01:57 PM Confused? I WAS! Sorry, please see my posting to the second Kosovo thread, where I asked the original question about religions. I was posting to both of these and the topics were so similar, I messed up. Please accept my apologies. Thanks, katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 02:29 PM Hi, Kat - I gotta respectfully disagree back - I call myself a liberal, but I usually find I agree with Jon W. (and that really bugs me, since he calls himself a conservative [grin]). I don't think Jon was "preaching" at all - I think he was just expressing his beliefs, and expressing them quite well and quite convincingly. The reign of Christ that he's hoping for is a reign of justice and peace. If it happens, I think you'll enjoy it - even if you don't happen to be Christian. If it isn't Christ who brings justice and peace, I sure hope SOMEBODY does. Many people who call themselves "liberal" seem to have developed a definition of religious tolerance that really alarms me. It seems to me that they're saying, I am completely unprejudiced toward you and your religious beliefs. But please, don't make any mention of your religious beliefs if I am within earshot. Oh, and be sure that your religious beliefs do not affect how you act toward other people. Oh, yes, I almost forgot - please don't use any words that are connected with your religion. I might be offended if I happen to hear you say words like "Christmas" or "Jesus."I really think I should be able to say "Merry Christmas" and not have to worry about offending anybody. Secondly, while I'm on my soapbox, I'd like to say that I haven't found any major religions in this world whose basic beliefs permit the violence and murder that has been done in the name of religion (no, not even Islam). The atrocities done in the name of religion are cruel perversions of religion. I think you'll find that the people who commit these atrocities in the name of religion usually are people who spend very little time in church. 'Nuff said. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: longhair Date: 19 Apr 99 - 02:57 PM thanks bcc! :-) |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 03:21 PM Oh, Joe, what about all of the church "fathers" who participated in the Inquisition; all of the church members, Protestant & Catholic, in Ireland who kill each other; the Muslims who do go to worship on a regular basis or Isrealis, etc. etc. I don't agree that most don't attend services. And, they are usually follwing the examples their leaders have preached to them. Also, I thoguht I was being careful enough that I did NOT mean I thought Jon W. was preaching to me. I don't care if you wish me a Merry Christmas, or mention J.C., but I would also like to be able to wish someone a Merry Solstice and mention the "god of my heart" without feeling like I might be persecuted for not being mainstream. A Wiccan friend of mine, here, in the USA, had his home firebombed because he was perceived to be abnormal by some "well-meaning" fundamentalists. No offense, but Christianity has, as men have (YES! I am a feminist and proud of it!), been "on top of the world" for a long time, i.e. in power/control, with plenty of time and opportunity to oppress women and anyone who was not of like mind. When I hear Christians complaining about there now being more vocal diversity, I feel they need to be a bit more tolerant and understand that oppression will not continue to the detriment of those of us who may call ourselves something other than what they think is correct. I believe Jesus, the Buddha, etc. were ALL great teachers and Avatars. They acted as the direct teachers and disciples, if you will, of God, the Supreme Being/Great Spirit, whatever. Jesus was probably the greatest of these. I hope you are right. I hope that our world does come to experience the peace and love that he taught and which, in my mind, have been so grossly misinterpreted by his followers, used more for their own means and end, rather than selflessly, as he set an example of. I don't believe he ever meant for his teachings to be use to oppress, to gain wealth and pwoer, all of which church "fathers" have traditionally used it for. In this country, we have people who call themselves Christian, who attend church, and then tell the rest of us that we will burn in hell for not believing as they do; or the really extreme ones who would like to annihilate myself and many others whom they are so fearful of. Most of my family consider themselves to be Christians. You know that I respect you and value your opinions, as well as that of everyone else's. Again, what I am trying to say is: be tolerant of the rest of us. Do not tell me a certain way is the only way. BTW, Joe, since you are close to Rosicrucian Park, next time you are up that way, you might wnat to check out the following books which are sold in the Alexandria Bookstore, there: The Secret Doctrines of Jesus & The Mystical Life of Jesus, both by H. Spenser Lewis. For anyone else who is interested, they can be ordered by phone at 1-888-767-2278. Whether you agree with them or not, they are interesting reading. Boy, I've put my foot in it now, haven't I? Last time I ever "discussed" religion was in 1973, with a now ex-brother-in-law, who told me into half of the night that I was going to hell for not being a member of his church. And, I was Christian at the time! I promised never to discuss it, again, and now here I am! I don't know who is sorrier, me or you all for having to listen! Sorry:-> From the opinionated katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 04:02 PM Points well taken, Kat. I still contend that those who commit atrocities in the name of religion are rarely following the basic beliefs of their own religions. As a Catholic, I am ashamed of the awful things done in the name of my religion - the Crusades, the Inquisition, IRA terrorism, and perhaps in part even the Holocaust. The Crusades and the Inquisition had an "official" authority from the Powers That Be in the Catholic Church, but those in power at the time were hardly what one would call "religious." Alexander VI was pope during the Spanish Inquisition - he was also the father of the infamous Lucretia Borgia. During the Crusades, the papacy was certainly more a political throne than religious. Maybe part of the problem is that the people who are really religious tend to be meek and gentle, not the type of people you expect to find as winners when there's a struggle for power. Power goes to those who strive for it. However, if I am a meek, religious person and allow my church to be led by a tyrant, then I must bear some responsibility for the tyrant's actions. I realize that Christianity has been dominant in our society far too long, and things need to be put into balance. However, I disagree with those who seek to cleanse all vestiges of Christianity from our language and culture. There are Christians who seek to dispose of Christian traditions because they had pagan origins, and I disagree with them, too. We will all be much poorer if such a cleansing is allowed to succeed. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Apr 99 - 04:35 PM I ain't touching this one with a 1000 foot lightning bolt. Anybody got a religion that doesn't require an element of "faith"---including all theist, including pagan beliefs, and atheist doctrines? Just wondering...... catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 04:40 PM Sure, Catspaw - just send me all your money, and I'll make sure you're "saved." -Joe Offer- Jesus puts his money in the First Wisconsin Bank |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbc Date: 19 Apr 99 - 04:58 PM Wheeew! This sure is an interesting topic for a *music* bulletin board! :) I am reading the posts from Jon, kat, Joe, etc. w/ bated breath. I'm glad that we are thinking people w/ strong feelings & beliefs. I hope we can keep our sense of harmony & balance, too. I come from the traditional Christian side, as Joe does, but find only minimal dissonance in being a woman in that setting. I'm sure that men, as well as women, find some points of disagreement in any organizations in which we are members. I am really enjoying this exchange of thoughts, but here's poor longhair--new to the group--wondering what in the world he's landed in!!! :) bbc |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Apr 99 - 05:01 PM Kind of a Mudbath I think. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 05:27 PM I think our music means a lot less if there isn't some thinking behind it. All this stuff we're talking about in this thread is important as a foundation for our music, so I certainly think it's appropriate to discuss it here. I know I haven't won Catspaw over to my point of what works and what doesn't work in the forum. Poor Catspaw was completely befuddled by the Today thread, where a discussion of a syrupy song evolved into a discussion on how to compromise one's musical values in attempts to attract the opposite sex. Anyhow, I think this thread is interesting and fun. Isn't that what we're here for? -Joe Offer- bbc, I'm not what Catholics would consider to be "traditional." I'm proud to say there are some who would label me a "dissident," but I consider myself to be be just as Catholic as our stodgy old pope is. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 19 Apr 99 - 05:35 PM He may be stodgy, but his album's on the charts! |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbc Date: 19 Apr 99 - 06:25 PM Sorry, Joe, I think I was referring to the fact that we both consider ourselves Christians, not where we fall on that (broad) spectrum. I don't know what I was thinking-- to refer to you as traditional (BTW, you never answered my crack about the lighthouse picture.) :) bbc |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 06:30 PM Dearest Joe: well put and I agree. I do NOT advocate a "cleansing" of our language etc. to dismiss Christianity. Poor Longhair,indeed! Well, LH, if this one's too much for a newbie, try the others. You'll get a grand taste of the diversity which makes this community truly an eclectic "bag". We may have our differences, but we surrreee are poe-lite about 'em, most of the time! Now, Joe! You've been holding out on us with camp songs? I'VE NEVER heard such sacriligious ones in my life, YOU DISSIDENT, YOU! I'm gonna start a thread just for Joe's camp songs, unless you tell me there's already been one!**GRIN** By the way, Rog (my "spouse" rhymes with "mouse" that's why I am a Kat!), is a former Catholic. He was raised by a very devout French Canadian father and first generation FC American mom. I've learned the younger generations, i.e. his siblings and himself, take it tongue in cheek and decide for themselves what seems to be right for them, within the context of their faith. I would classify them all as dissidents. Rog has since become more Zen in his beliefs than anything else. He still has cousins and scads of other relatives who are either monks or nuns and follow the doctrines to the letter, which is their right. katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Jon W. Date: 19 Apr 99 - 06:49 PM I'm the first to admit that many have misused religions for their own political/power purposes, and also that many societal norms are at best foolish and at worst inherently evil. My third point above was simply that, IMHO, during the recent decades of cultural revolution our society has largely thrown out the baby with the bath water. Much of the violence we see around us is a result. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Jon W. Date: 19 Apr 99 - 06:52 PM PS Thanks, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: hank Date: 20 Apr 99 - 10:51 AM Ethan, I used murders as an example. I'm not so shallow as to have that as the only issue I have. However murder is pretty straigt forward, not all the others are. I try to live by "Love they neighbor as theyself", and "Go the extra mile" Though they are not as easy to live as they are to say. Yes, I belive that those who don't belive exactly like me are going to hell. But that doesn't give me the right to violate any of the love they neighbor stuff. (Besides I'm not without sin so I won't be casting the first stone). You have a right to be wrong is what I say, and I cannot prove byond a shadow of the doupt that Cathloics are wrong, even though I beilve it fully. Nor for that matter can I prove athism is wrong. I'm not quite as unwilling as Kat to discuss religion, but pretty close. As a wise philospher once said (obvious a centry ago, but sometime after Martin Luther, and obviously in the western world) "All sensible men are of the same religion. But what religion that is, no sensible man will ever say" I think that is how I wish things to remain, so I will not tell you what the right religion is. (and I'm sorry for picking on the catholics above) |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Apr 99 - 12:04 PM Uh Joe, out of curiosity, why did you think I was befuddled by the "Today" thread? catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Apr 99 - 01:22 PM Uh...because I forgot about your Corvette post in the "Today" thread, Catspaw... Still and all, although we got a bit off the exact topic of the song, didn't we say just about everything there was to say about "Today" and its sociological impact? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Apr 99 - 01:39 PM Agreed Joe...which is for me what makes the most classic threads. I think Leej referred to it as creep...ambling around to totally unrelated or vaguely related topics, but eventually tying back up. Generally the most informative and often the funniest threads too. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 20 Apr 99 - 03:54 PM Hank, I am a little befuddled by your post. Catspaw49, you asked if there are any religions that don't require faith. Sounds a little weird to me; faith is, like, part of what makes it a religion, right? In general I think we're using the word 'religion' several different ways here: what Jesus (or Buddha, or Lao-Tse, or name-your-facorite-prophet) actually said, and how that gets interpreted. Most prophets are anti-mayhem, but a lot of organized religions seem to be pro-mayhem. Anyway, Catspaw, I think there are two answers to your question. First of all, a lot of people who go to church or synagogue or the woods or whatever aren't particularly faithful: religions provide social order and stability, and it is not so very hypocritical to find one's community there even if one does not believe the creed. Second, there are non-creedal religions (eg the Quakers, the Unitarians, Hinayana Buddhists, and so forth). Thirdly, (right, I know I said two, but I don't know how to backspace) there are a lot of non-religious, non-theistic ways to find meaning and virtue in the world...and art is one of those. I don't need faith in anything to enjoy music... |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Apr 99 - 04:06 PM Congrats Ethan...on the right track. And you are certainly right about music. Faith is the ability to believe without proof; and all theist and atheist beliefs are grounded in the "proof" of something(s) being rock hard and factual at it's basic elements. If we can grant each other the differences in those basic elements as simply differing acceptances of the unknown, things are a lot more harmonius. It's just a thought and a question I often ask. I don't belong to either group so I try to keep asking for additional enlightenment. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 20 Apr 99 - 06:37 PM Ethan and Catspaw, WELL SAID! |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 20 Apr 99 - 11:37 PM Yeah, but Hank--if all of us are going to hell because we don't believe as you do, and you believe in "all that love your neighbor stuff," how can you NOT tell us what the true religion is? Is denying us (your neighbors) our chance at salvation loving us? Is it "going the extra mile"? I ask as a challenge, not as a criticism. --seed |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: hank Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:05 AM good question seed. My first order of buisness is to live as a loving servant of God. Getting into how you are wrong, pointing out your faults is not living by love. Telling someone that they are wrong is not living by love unless you can say it in a way that will make them change to the right - something I cannot do. I belive that the most important thing is to live right and set an example. Then God moves into those who see the right example and makes them think about why I'm different. Then God arranges the right people (not nessicarly me, the one who harvests may not be the one who planted) to move in an enlighten the searching soul. Ethan, I suppose you are confused, but I really can't think of a different way to put it. Other then to say that a non-cut and dried issue is parents who beat their kids vs parents who give a spanking when the kid needs it. The former is wrong to everyone, the latter is accaptable to some, wrong to others, I don't want to commint on that issue. Even though I do (of course) have a position, and in the case of beatings, they are wrong, and those who are involved probably need goverment intervention. Again, this is just one issue that I keep running against everytime I want to be a complete anarchist. In the 1930's Kurt Goldel (those two dots over the o) proved that there are truths in the universe that cannot be proven true, or there are proven (or proveable, maybe they haven't been proven yet) truths that are not true! When someone asks how I can beleive in religion that is my response. (It is called Goldel's incompletness therom) |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:48 AM OK, now we're getting somewhere, Hank. The classic (Emma Goldman) definition of anarchy is that 'authoritarianism is always wrong, as well as unneccesary.' That is the hard-line. You are talking about government as a *neccesary* evil...obviously the examples are not important, we both used murder earlier because it's so simple. I agree with you: as long as we have governments, as long as we are too weak to live as free individuals, we should work to ensure that those governments protect us from murderers and child-beaters. Right. That is not easy--it encompasses a thousand different struggles, each of immense importance. What I think is added by *anarchy*, per se, is the point that we should not stop at those struggles, and we should not accept the condition of governance as an ultimate neccesity for human society................Careful with Gödel, there. In the first place, he was a crazy weasel with a funky haircut. But in the second place, the Gödelian incompleteness theorem only applies to discrete mathematical systems, and all that it says is that there are--neccesarily--paradoxical statements within such systems. In logic, the simplest such statement is 'This statement is false.' Gödel himself went on from there to use the math as a metaphor for humanity's metaphysical condition, but it's a rather weak argument. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: steve in ottawa Date: 21 Apr 99 - 06:56 PM Wow. Go away for a few days and find *this* thread. Glad to see Joe Offer is so active again.
Just a couple of notes from an atheist's point of view:
Well, there, I've put my foot in it now :-) Steve |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 21 Apr 99 - 07:56 PM Wow! Steve, my sentiments exactly! My head is reeling from trying to follow everyone's POV, however diverse. Suffice it to say that if everyone really followed the *heart* of whatever path up the mountain was theirs, be it Christian, Islam, Buddhism, or the Church of To Whom It May Concern, instead of letting egos and power trips direct them instead, the world would be a much better place, and the children wouldn't be in such a mess. Thank the Higher Power for music- it seems to be able to express the unexpressable and hold us together better than most doctrines or dogmas! |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Roger in Baltimore Date: 22 Apr 99 - 06:10 AM Perhaps religions' policy should be one of "attraction, not promotion". Roger in Baltimore |
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