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BS: A Death Wish?

GUEST,Tunesmith 04 Aug 07 - 04:32 PM
Cluin 04 Aug 07 - 04:34 PM
Mickey191 04 Aug 07 - 05:11 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 07 - 05:15 PM
gnu 04 Aug 07 - 05:24 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 07 - 05:28 PM
Peace 04 Aug 07 - 05:29 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 07 - 05:32 PM
Cluin 04 Aug 07 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,folkie 04 Aug 07 - 05:40 PM
Liz the Squeak 04 Aug 07 - 05:53 PM
Peace 04 Aug 07 - 05:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Aug 07 - 07:08 PM
JennyO 04 Aug 07 - 11:11 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 07 - 11:17 PM
Alice 04 Aug 07 - 11:43 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 05 Aug 07 - 12:25 AM
Amos 05 Aug 07 - 12:56 AM
robomatic 05 Aug 07 - 01:12 AM
Little Hawk 05 Aug 07 - 02:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Aug 07 - 04:58 AM
Emma B 05 Aug 07 - 06:16 AM
JennyO 05 Aug 07 - 06:45 AM
Willie-O 05 Aug 07 - 08:40 AM
Mickey191 05 Aug 07 - 10:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Aug 07 - 11:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Aug 07 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 05 Aug 07 - 03:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Aug 07 - 04:06 PM
Peace 05 Aug 07 - 04:08 PM
Ebbie 05 Aug 07 - 07:01 PM
Col K 05 Aug 07 - 07:35 PM
Little Hawk 05 Aug 07 - 08:36 PM
Kampervan 06 Aug 07 - 02:36 AM
Col K 06 Aug 07 - 05:29 PM
Bee 06 Aug 07 - 09:22 PM
Little Hawk 06 Aug 07 - 10:53 PM
Col K 07 Aug 07 - 06:12 PM
Cluin 07 Aug 07 - 06:22 PM
Col K 07 Aug 07 - 06:52 PM
Cluin 07 Aug 07 - 07:57 PM
Amos 07 Aug 07 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 07 Aug 07 - 09:20 PM
Little Hawk 07 Aug 07 - 11:40 PM
Cluin 08 Aug 07 - 12:06 AM

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Subject: BS: A Death Wish?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 04:32 PM

The "smoking threads" made me think of this topic! Has your average human being got a death wish? Because, from what I've read, if a person wants to live a long time - and stay healthy and fit - they will have to be a non-smoker, a very moderate drinker, a vegan, and be prepared to exercise daily - And not get knocked down and killed while out jogging! Of course, such a lifestyle choice would generally be considered eccentric and "boring" by many. Discuss!


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 04:34 PM

Might as well have a death wish. And like paying taxes as well. Inevitable, as they say.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Mickey191
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:11 PM

I agree totally. My Brother John, died of lung cancer at 47--the last two years were hell for him. The knowledge was out there--smoking kills.

Now my favorite male cousin has been smoking for 35 of his 50 years. He saw what John went thru--and he persists. He has the most terrible cough. He almost took my head off when I said: "You sound just like John when you cough.Please quit." I will never bring it up again. I refuse to cry over a fool.

They both had personal problems which were time consuming & seemed unresolvable. My conclusion is that they want(ed) out!

I smoked 2 packs daily & when it was hinted that they'd do you in...I just quit cold. Never looked back. I think everyone can do it--unless there is death wish lurking.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:15 PM

Actually, a lot of people want out. I think that is a significant factor in people's self-destructive behaviour, where it means smoking, drinking, or driving too fast. Not that they are consciously thinking..."I'm gonna kill myself."...but more that they are subconsciously arranging it that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:24 PM

I am arranged? I knew I was deranged, but, not arranged... almost sounds like I know what I am doing. Perhaps I take your point not seriously enough. But, then again, how could I?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:28 PM

What are you implying...? ;-) Not inferring, mind you! Implying.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:29 PM

I don't know. Death wish, addiction.

New evidence is showing that nicotine is one of the more addicting substances on the planet. But, not to change what will become a neat thread, have any of you thought that as humans we've developed a death wish? Look at our home, look at our politics, look at the things we do in the name of commerce/economics. Tobacco is certainly a problem. Then I see the smoke at airports and from cars and I read about poisons in our drinking water and toxins in our food and I wonder about it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:32 PM

As humans in a general sense? Yes, I think you could make a strong case for the whole civilization having a death wish.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:37 PM

It all started when we got up on our hind legs. With every step, man teeters on the brink of catastrophe.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: GUEST,folkie
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:40 PM

The trouble is everyone in their right mind knows pretty well how to live a life that will maximise their years on this planet.

(Not withstanding those occasions when the fittest person in the avenue drops dead when out jogging)

But the thing is, a lot of people don't want a safe, sensible long life. They want to take a risk.

That risk might be smoking, a dangerous sport, drinking too much, or it might be gambling.

Now this might be stupid, but we evolved to survive in a risky environment, and that's where we do best.

I'm not advocating smoking or taking drugs or doing wheelies down your local street, but that's one of the reasons that people do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:53 PM

The only person who doesn't have some form of death wish is one who has seen death close up and doesn't like the look of it.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:59 PM

Maybe yes, maybe no, Liz.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 07:08 PM

Non-smoking, drinking a reasonable amount, avoiding eating meat and suchlike, and doing something that involves taking some moderate physical exercise every day. Can't see anything in the least "eccentric" in that. And where does "boring" come into it?

A bit like saying it's eccentric and boring to eat three meals a day.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: JennyO
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 11:11 PM

I've often wondered about people having a death wish, particularly when they persist in having lifestyles which are likely to shorten their lives, but maybe sometimes it isn't that, so much as laziness and wanting instant gratification, and denial.

I've had a lot of trouble starting on the more healthy lifestyle I know would be good for me. With me it's too much of the wrong food and not enough exercise (I hate exercise), but what stops me is not a death wish - I want to live till a ripe old age - but that it's easier to do what is comfortable and gives me pleasure NOW. My head tells me this is stupid, but it's hard to break out of that comfort zone.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 11:17 PM

Yes, JennyO, that's a big part of it. Like you say, it's not always a death wish by any means.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Alice
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 11:43 PM

I had a friend who started smoking very young, about 14, and when he died from it at 28, I think
it was because of denial. He didn't think it would happen to him.
He stopped talking very much, went silent, and when his wife kept saying,
why don't you speak, he opened his mouth and showed her the large
hole eaten all the way through his tongue. The front half of his tongue
was hanging on by a couple pieces of skin. He was still chain smoking.
He didn't want to tell anyone because he was in denial that mouth cancer
was happening to him. At that point, he had to go to a doctor and accept
that he had a short time to live. He soon lost his entire lower jaw, then his life.

We all have that feeling of denial to some extent that the worst won't happen
to us, but with the information we have now, it is up to us to face our unhealthy
habits. I'm still working on recognizing that I'm not as young and healthy as I
was in the past. I still have that younger "me" in my self image and need to
stop the denial of aging.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 12:25 AM

Some have said that suicide is the sincerest form of self criticism. ;-)

Also, being a folksinger with my traditional definition of what folk music actually is for forty years is some form of death wish---some might say ;-) So why did I enjoy it so much? Must be like ol' Doc Strangelove----"How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb!"

Recently, I sent an e-mail to old friend Anne Hills where I told her, "In a real sense, losing the ability to play my music was like a death of sorts for me." I don't see a death wish idea here, but in another real sense, what I'm experiencing right now is like an afterlife---and the only one of those, I am sure, that I'll ever partake in. As the gospel of Thomas infers, 'Heaven and hell is here on Earth--right here and now.'

Given the above, I can watch the travails of the world we're in now as they raise their variously shaded ugly and beautiful heads parading down the river of my life, and I amaze myself with my powerlessness and also my acceptance of the insane junk we all are drowning in. Somehow, it's all a real gas; sometimes pure oxygen, and sometimes a fart. But I breathe deeply taking in whatever wafts my way!

No death wish I don't think. Just reality---and all that that entails.

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 12:56 AM

There is a spectrum of postulates and arrangements and decisions at play within any one individual and a billion times more so in the species at large; everyone has a "succumb" side to their makeup, and if they get too overdone, slapped about, traumatized, or dicked with, it is not unusual for anyone to get fed up. When that happens, odd consequences occur.

In many cases, getting fed up once too often makes the difference between exiting now and hanging on for more years.

But they come back for more. For a variety of reasons.

From another viewpoint it is not exactly a "death" wish, anymore than someone who turns in his 250,000-mile Volvo for a new Toyota is demonstrating a death wish. It's often a wish for more life in a better vehicle.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 01:12 AM

Wonderful line from the movie: "The Opposite Of Sex"

"Now I understand you: You have a death wish. So do I , but I direct it toward others."


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 02:02 AM

Ahh! Excellent point, Amos. I like that. More life in a better vehicle indeed!


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:58 AM

I am sure that for most people doing dangerous things - I mean stuff like rock climbing, rather than stuff like smoking - isn't anything to do with a death wish, it's about defying and beating death, and feeling more alive in the process. Rather the way gamblers aren't doing it to lose, but because, when they win, that gives them a kick.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 06:16 AM

From Les Barker's "Detritus".....

    "And remember that some people are only alive
         Because it's illegal to kill them"


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 06:45 AM

And another of Les's - also from "Detritus", that came to mind earlier in relation to the idea of living a healthy lifestyle:

"Good health is merely the slowest way to die."


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Willie-O
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 08:40 AM

Living a long time, and being "healthy and fit" while doing so, are two different objectives.

And in either case I don't think being a vegetarian or vegan correlates with either. Certainly didn't for Linda McCartney.

Ultimately I think your longevity will be a function of genetics, modified by immoderate behaviour. Judging from my relatives, the prescription for longevity is to be female, non-smoking, balanced diet, reasonably prosperous, and born in New Brunswick. Not too much of that can be planned by the subject except the smoking bit. No correlation with teetotalling, meat-eating or even exercise. Moderation in all things is about the best plan that can be generalized.

In fact, as of last year, my mom and all my aunts (both sides, except for one who died aged 3) are alive, while all my uncles and my dad are dead. More of the men were smokers, but a lot of them reached late 80's anyway. While all the women on mom's side seem to get well into their 90's.

To speak to the original question, though, yes, people who are obsessive about their long-term health are boring and much of what they do is pointless anyway. As Cluin points out though, you don't need a death wish to shuffle off this mortal coil. You just need to be born. And I don't think that dangerously addictive behaviour is related to a death wish--nobody plans or expects to get addicted. It's trying something out, it's not like buying a train ticket with a destination specified.

Cheers!
W-O


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Mickey191
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 10:53 AM

Willie-O wrote: And I don't think that dangerously addictive behaviour is related to a death wish--nobody plans or expects to get addicted. It's trying something out,


I'm wondering how does one rationalize the use of drugs like crack -- thinking "I'm not going to get addicted? I'll just try this once." When all around us (On the News,movies,daily paper or a neighbor) are crack addicts who living in a hell of their own making? How can they expect to avoid addiction?

If not a death wish, is it perhaps the supreme ego at work? The sense that "I'm _better_ than them? This is under my control.I'll try this once........"


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 11:12 AM

Life is a sexualy transmitted terminal disease!

I pondered the question in the opening post quite often but have come to the conclusion that it is more the 'It will never happen to me' syndrome. If you think of the number of things that can kill you out there you would never get out of bed - Apart from that would probably kill you as well:-)

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 01:26 PM

If you never got out of bed you probably wouldn't live all that long either.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 03:27 PM

Of course, living a healthy lifestyle should extend your life expectancy and it should also improve your quality of life it that you should also feel better! You should have less aches and pains, less chance of broken hips, and less chance of a very uncomfortable old age.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:06 PM

You keep on dancing and singing longer too.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:08 PM

Stop breathing. You'll live longer.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 07:01 PM

As someone once said, When it comes down to it, *every* death is caused by organ failure.



"From another viewpoint it is not exactly a "death" wish, anymore than someone who turns in his 250,000-mile Volvo for a new Toyota is demonstrating a death wish. It's often a wish for more life in a better vehicle."

I love that, Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Col K
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 07:35 PM

Lets face it there is ONLY one certain thing in life and that is that the end is DEATH.We are dying from the moment we are born, it is just a case of how long we take to go and what we do when we are here.
We live our lives and make choices as we go,these choices may or may not affect our final demise.Does anyone really know how our lifestyle affects things. Some people live simple healthy lives and die young, others abuse their bodies and live to a ripe old age.
How we live our life is to a very large extent our choice, how we die is not (apart from suicides).
Suicide is a selfish death, it leaves behind so many unanswered questions and so many people who feel guilty at having failed a loved one.do those who have to deal with suicide in the family ever get over it? I don't know.
I know I will die one day,I don't want to yet but accept that it will eventually come. I hope that when it does come it comes quickly.

Colin


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 08:36 PM

I think, Col K, that there are some other things that are equally certain in life:

experience
feeling
emotion
awareness
hunger
desire
sense of selfhood
awareness of all that is (apparently) separate from self, and throught that.....relationship with others.

I too hope that when death comes it will come quickly, but that probably won't happen. In any case, I think, as Amos does, that it's a doorway to new life. I fear the process of death itself, but not the completion of that process.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Kampervan
Date: 06 Aug 07 - 02:36 AM

Nice posting L H.

I just wish that I had your belief about it being a doorway. Try as I might that certainty has never been granted to me.

Hope you're right though


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Col K
Date: 06 Aug 07 - 05:29 PM

Whilst I agree LH about some of your "certainties" I have doubts that those who die very young will have time to feel any of them. When one gets older then I hope that we all have the chance to experience them, but I repeat the ONLY certainty in life is DEATH. From the moment we are born we start dieing, its how long that process takes that matters, and what we do in the meantime of course.
Some of us lead very fullfilled lives and will feel/experience many things, others hide away and suffer them rather than live them. I would wish that more people made the effort to live their lives to the full, rather than just exist as some people do.
Am I an optimist or a pesimist? I do not know.

Colin


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Bee
Date: 06 Aug 07 - 09:22 PM

My parents lived exemplary healthy lifestyles. Dad died young, Mom has had many surgeries and suffers half a dozen lifethreatening chronic conditions. Brother, also healthy, non smoker, walked ten km a day, ate well, etc., died at 43 of heart failure. Sis lives healthy, but has asthma. I know, intellectually, that stats on long life were/are with them in terms of lifestyle, but it is hard to really believe it makes any difference at all, given the observable results. I've lived far more dangerously than any of them, and remain disgustingly healthy, though of course that can change in a moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 07 - 10:53 PM

It would be equally valid, Col K, to say this: The moment we are born we start living!

Since you have a choice, why choose to focus on the negative aspect? That strikes me as a sort of cheerless way of looking at things.

But I understand the intriguing nature of argumentation itself...when one has put forward any rational premise, one then is inclined to continue arguing to strengthen it.

So here's another rational premise:

1. When we are born, we start living.

2. Our life begins with an upward curve, moving toward more expanded life. That cannot be characterized as dying, for it is the very opposite of dying. It is expansion into greater life.

3. The dying process you are alluding to when you say that we are "dying from the moment we're born" does not, in fact, begin until one has passed one's prime, beginning the descent into middle age and old age. That is when things begin to lessen and diminish, that is when cells begin to die off and not be replicated, and that, I submit, is the process of dying.

4. Therefore we do not in fact begin to die until we have passed the midpoint of our lives, just as a sine curve does not begin to descend until it has passed the midpoint of the curve. Life is a process of expansion. Death is a process of contraction. Just like a breath. Just like the waves rolling in and out on the shore. Just like the breathing of the entire universe, as far as that goes. Our Universe, according to science is still expanding out in every direction. It has not yet begun to die. When it does, it will contract back toward its point of origin, finally to an infinitessimally tiny point.

And then.....?   BOOM!!! LET THERE BE LIGHT! That's when new life emerges, quite unexpected from the dark, dense doorway that looked like it would stay shut for eternity.

I figure that the Universe reincarnates too, you see... ;-D But it takes a lot longer than we do, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Col K
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:12 PM

And the baby that dies at 3 days does all of that Little Hawk.
Possibly I do look on the negative side, that way I can enjoy all the good things that happen all the more because they are unexpected.
That was why I asked if I was a pessimist or an optimist?

Colin


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:22 PM

If you're still around, you're an optimist.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Col K
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:52 PM

So my glass is half full then?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 07:57 PM

Say "when".


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 08:26 PM

As Woody Allen said, I don't mind dying -- I just don't want to be there when it happens.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 09:20 PM

My glass is more than half full.
I just rgrew up in it!

And you can quote me!!

(But give me credit!!!)

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 11:40 PM

Yes, the baby that dies at 3 days does all of that. It begins by living, it ends by dying. Just like a single breath coming in, going out. Just a shorter stay, that's all. A much smaller sine wave.

There are some insects that only live a day, but to them a day surely seems like an entire life.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Death Wish?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:06 AM

That's because it is, LH.


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