Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'

Subject: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 03:16 AM

Only recently discovered Kate Rusby personally and so enjoy this cover of "You belong to me", complete with the accent, that I thought I might share it with you...What a voice      
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP6us-ZeiSk
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Phil
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 07:58 AM

Georgiansilver,

I live 2 miles from Kate, we all have the same accent, but we do not have the same voice.

Phil*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 12:55 PM

Really love the accent...especially the way she sings 'jungle'

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 01:34 PM

How exactly would to expect her to pronounce jungle?
It's a two-syllable word permitting a not too wide scope for linguistic variation.
A post of this nature does really require a health warning.
People might be trying to eat.

There's a Vietnamese proverb: A not too tight tie ties tightest which implies that those who set out to 'own' others are people traffickers.

If you love me love me truly
if you don't, please tell me so.
Ever differing the truth
like a debt is even sadder.
Listen, temple bells are tolling
birds call from the woods and mountains
and the cock has long since sung.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Phil
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 02:12 PM

Diane Easby

I am afraid your post has gone right over the top of my head.

The poster was only saying Kate sings with a strong Yorkshire accent, what is wrong with that.

Phil*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 02:43 PM

Diane Easby's posting

and Shakespeare wrote a play about this. Much Ado About Nothing.


if someone can't perform the simple act of posting something that's pleasant....

Georgiansilver, Thank You for posting that link :-)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 02:55 PM

I am afraid your post has gone right over the top of my head

Clearly.

kRusby sings in a Yorkshire accent.
I know. So do I.
There is, however, but one way to pronounce 'jungle'.

The song You Belong To Me displays archaic and distasteful connotations of one person claiming 'ownership' of another.
This is vomit-inducing.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 03:13 PM

And since Much Ado is mentioned, I'm struggling to see a connection between a sitcom set in Sicily and a piece of Vietnamese poetry.
Do Claudio, Hero, Benedick and Beatrice feature in a volume I've missed?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: the button
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 03:15 PM

Gotta love that patriarchy.

Then again. Traditional song minus patriarchy = small repertoire, no?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 03:34 PM

I'm a big Kate Rusby fan also, but I gotta say I don't like her version of this classic song much. She lost all the great melody and made it sound like a thousand other folky ballads.

Great voice though.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 03:54 PM

Ms Easby...you make the following statements.          >>>>>>>>>kRusby sings in a Yorkshire accent.
I know. So do I.
There is, however, but one way to pronounce 'jungle'.<<<<<<<<<<
Can I suggest a little research into dialect, as there are many ways in which the word 'jungle' can be pronounced...try not just Yorkshire but Liverpool, Birmingham, South Africa for just three of what could be a list of many pronunciations.
Kate Rusby sings in a Yorkshire accent...you know!!!...so do you!!!! Never heard you sing so can't comment except that I have heard Kate, who is obviously much more well known than yourself as a singer and I believe she has a great voice and accent.
The theme that the song conveys is perhaps a little distasteful but does not detract from the overall presentation, especially her cover of it.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:03 PM

I was refering to your post..umm..let's call it

'How exactly would to expect her to pronounce jungle?'

but I see the same reference could probably apply to your second posting, which we can call 'I know. So do I.'

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:08 PM

"Joongle" is the only way to pronounce it, is it?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:11 PM

Can I suggest a little research into dialect

Don't need to. Been there. Done that. Got the MSc in Linguistics.
In mainland Britain there are two academically-recognised dialects.
Lowland Scots and Yorkshire Dales.
Not Barnsley.

The song is shit. Haven't heard the kRusby do it.
I'm just guessing but have no reason to expect that it's any less boring than all the rest.
But she's a 'nice' person.
As June Tabor always says (not necessarily about her), just don't expect me to listen to it.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:15 PM

I've also had the misfortune of hearing Easby sing

I doubt that.
But if you did and it offended you, good.

Can't stand kRusby?
I've just said she's 'nice'.
Now, piss off and soip pretending to 'know' me.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:22 PM

"Joongle" is the only way to pronounce it, is it?"

Aye Lass/Lad
*LOL*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:27 PM

Stomach turning?
Ah, I think I've got who you are, having had news of a sailing trip this afternoon.
Another passenger certainly turned a little green.

I courted a sailor . . . omigod!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: the button
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:27 PM

Nah, the way forward is clearly the very short "u". The "oo" sound is a transpennine affectation. ;)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:29 PM

"Then again. Traditional song minus patriarchy = small repertoire, no?"
It would be wouldn't it?
as someone said once

"you cannot reform our forefathers"

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Fadge Boy
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:35 PM

Sailing, me?

That's a bit prissy for someone who's spent as long on trawlers as I have. Still, that's probably too grand for your end of the street.

And, no, I'm not John Prescott.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:35 PM

well...so what's wrong with someone courting a sailor? My Dad courted a Wren, and the rest, as they say, is history ;-) *LOL*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:36 PM

Get a room, you two.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: the button
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:37 PM

'"Then again. Traditional song minus patriarchy = small repertoire, no?"
It would be wouldn't it?
as someone said once

"you cannot reform our forefathers"'

An example: -

"A blacksmith courted me, nine months & better,"
So women are just passive recipients of male courtship are they, you revolting sexist pig? Also, I note with some disgust that the period of courtship is nine months -- a clear allusion to the normal period of gestation, thus reducing women (once again, I might add) to their so-called biological function as childbearers.

"He fairly won my heart, wrote me a letter."
Ah. So now we get to the crux of the matter. Rather than contest gendered norms of employment, you chose to be courted by a male blacksmith. Could you not find any wimmin blacksmiths (or "diversesmiths," as I choose to call them)? Shocking. Truly shocking. And as for your being impressed that he could write you a letter, I suppose this speaks volumes about unequal access to basic education in a patriarchal society.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:40 PM

I think a Bold Fisherman analogy might be more appropriate, in the circumstasnces.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Fadge Boy
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:42 PM

I'm not sharing a room again with Crazy Man Michael, especially after the haddock incident.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:46 PM

somewhat akin to The Goat In Boots Incident, the details of which cannot be revealed for fear of scaring the politically correct*LOL

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:49 PM

Would that be like Led Zeppelin and the mudshark?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Fadge Boy
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:50 PM

Michael, I told you twenty years ago that if you ever mentioned the goat I couldn't be held responsible for the consequences (or the goat's offspring).

Now you've gone and done it so I have no option but to let the more inbred members of my family hunt you down. And it won't just be frozen peas through your letterbox this time!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:51 PM

oooops..ummmm fer gawdsakes don't mention Led Zeppelin or Black Country Girl in here, the traddies get REALLY worked up about that one*LOL*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 04:53 PM

sorry that should have read Black Country Woman...:-D

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:39 PM

Diane Easby, you further state.>>>>>>>>>>Don't need to. Been there. Done that. Got the MSc in Linguistics.
In mainland Britain there are two academically-recognised dialects.
Lowland Scots and Yorkshire Dales.
Not Barnsley.<<<<<<<<<<<<
Your will to win arguments or debates certainly outweighs your so called MSc knowledge in Linguistics....and for someone so qualified, why would you wish to use expletives? Did your studies leave you so lacking in vocabulary that debasing your utterances has to suffice?
For someone who claims to have "Been there. Done that" you certainly lack any finesse.
Two academically recognised dialects?......So Cornwall and Devon dialect is not recognised, neither Liverpool or Birmingham? Oh and Geordie?....not recognised dialects or is that some other figment of your imagination?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:42 PM

No. They're fucking accents.
Now piss off.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:43 PM

That's the Diane we all know and love!!! ROFLOL

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:44 PM

The playground torment!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 07:29 PM

1776. "Land waste for five years is called jungle." From Hindi and Maratoi word jangal. Jangle, jingle jungul. OED.

The Youtubby- Who cares, the woman can't sing.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,folkie
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 07:35 PM

Quotes from Diane in this thread:-

--------------------------------------------------------------------
kRusby sings in a Yorkshire accent.
I know. So do I.
There is, however, but one way to pronounce 'jungle'.


In mainland Britain there are two academically-recognised dialects.
Lowland Scots and Yorkshire Dales.
Not Barnsley.

The song is shit. Haven't heard the kRusby do it.


They're fucking accents.
Now piss off.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Given that one of the original drifts of this thread was that someone liked the way that KR pronouced 'jungle', does it matter if its a dialect or an accent? If it sounds different it sounds different.

All I can think is that DE is either just winding everyone up or she deserves pity.
Either way, perhaps it's better not to comment further but just leave her to her sad existence.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:40 AM

The 'f*lkie' with upper/lower case difficulties said:

does it matter if it[']s a dialect or an accent?

In order to discuss diction accurately, obviously it does.
However the thread's 'original drift' was to inveigle the unsuspecting into listening to irrelevant MOR crap.
That's a wind up.
Either that or a demonstration of extremely poor taste.
So someone else started the 'lending CDs to beginners' thread, to discuss actual real music and get away from the pathetic rubbish being pushed in this one.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Phil
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 03:21 AM

Diane Easby,

You are just a wind up merchant, you do post a right load of tosh. I feel sorry for you.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 03:23 AM

And another thread bites the dust! Thanks for that link Mike, I enjoyed it at least.
                   Flamenco, the only path.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 03:46 AM

What I talk about mostly, 'phil who has lost his star', is English music with roots in a tradition.
If you think that's tosh, I'd suggest you are in the wrong place entirely.
kRusby (and Pure) have an agenda: to push what she produces onto mainstream playlists.
kRusby, who I've met only a couple of times, seems very nice.
I'm sure she is just that. Who she is isn't quite the point. It's what she does.
Her music may be considered 'nice' too, if you happen to like that sort of MOR pop.
A recording of a dreary, dated mainstream song of the 'moon in June' genus does not a thing to promote English music, even if it is rendered in an English regional accent.
To post a link to her performing it can only be a wind-up at best and the result of imposing it on the unsuspecting could do immense damage the image of English music.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:14 AM

I don't know about anybody else, but I feel very uncomfortable with this hostility between people who obviously haven't met each other.

Diane ( I think it was you) you should say sorry for calling GS a pervert a few weeks ago. he's not. He's a decent chap and seriously does his best to be an okay guy.

You are entitled not to like Kate Rusby (and god knows who else), and like Eliza Carthy (and god knows who else) - by accepting or rejecting what they do - it helps you define yourself as a singer. Something which is importatnt to you - and no one knows how important that is to an artist, if they ain't in there doing themselves. the vehemence with which you reject is understandable to me (I've done it myself so I understand). To people who don't wake up in the morning and reach for the guitar or fiddle - it just comes over as a vicious temperament.   I'm sure that's not the case.

Both Kate and Eliza are entitled to call themselves folksingers. They both hang around with folk musicicians in folk clubs. they both make a sincere creative effort.

Now try and be nice.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:28 AM

You are entitled not to like Kate Rusby

Yes, I am but I don't 'not like' her.
I scarcely know her and she'd be hard put to recognise me, I'm sure.
That would be mainly because I'm rarely where she is, for obvious reasons but absolutely not personal.
What I am annoyed (and quite alarmed) about are attempts (for whatever reason) to pass off what is clearly not rooted English music by any stretch of the imagination as just that.
I'm not telling anyone what they should like. That would clearly be pointless. Listen to what you like. What I'm calling for is dispassionate accuracy.

[And the sort of predatory behaviour at music venues that GS seemed proud to have indulged in is perverted to me and I'll be continuing to criticise it].

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 05:58 AM

GS is one of the least threatening, and least predatory people you could ever meet - if you met him - you would know this immediately. I cannot imagine how this misunderstanding has taken place, but I can imagine that your characterising him in such a way will cause him distress.

Whatever you and I and Jim Carrol think. (I'm picking the three most opinionated Britgits I can think of!) there really isn't a gold standard as far as folk music is concerned. We can think our own thoughts, but to express hostility and agresssion to others about those opinions - well it makes us look stupid. Its an inflation of our own self importance in the context of world affairs.

It relly is self demeaning - losing it (to the extent of abuse and unfriendliness), over minute gradations in our beliefs about what is folk music.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 06:26 AM

I never think about 'what is f*lk music' because the term is, nowadays, so degraded as to be totally meaningless. I won't even use the word and am in favour of it being binned forthwith.

Trying to argue that, for instance, kRusby droning out a tired old standard is what English music IS, causes vast damage to what it actually is. I'm quite certain she won't be in the slightest upset at the knowledge that I don't much like vast swathes of what she does; she's making a living at it and providing work for some of this country's best musicians and will doubtless keep on doing what she does. And so will I.

As I said higher up, dispassionate accuracy are the keywords. If you happen to like baroque, atonal jazz, techno grunge, early C20 cowpat Gilbert&Sullivan or brass bands that's fine but it doesn't become 'English f*lk' overnight just because you say so.

I'm unable to see it as a 'minor gradation in belief' when mouthy blokes who don't know me and certainly haven't seen me perform yell that I'm talking 'tosh' when spelling out in minute detail what precisely I'm talking about after they've failed lamentably to get it the first time, largely because they're so self-absorbed with scouring the countryside in packs on the pull.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 06:52 AM

Thank you for your input Al....the incident Diane is referring to was printed on a thread entitled "Best thing seen in a Folk Club"...and I remembered in the 1960s...yes the 1960s....being in a Folk Club and seeing an absolutely beautiful girl walk in with her boyfriend and all eyes were on her.....even the women.......Diane took exception to this and decided...because of REPEAT a 1960s incident, that I am some kind of pervert. I was tempted by several friend on here to take legal action for libel but felt it unwarranted and perhaps rather petty. If Diane decides to present herself as some kind of self styled, all-knowing, feminist, wind up merchant then she should be treated as such. She just never grew out of the playground attitudes and expletives.
As for Kate Rusby...at least I have heard her singing and seen her perform...Who is Diane Easby anyway?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 07:05 AM

I loathe all this bickering and pointscoring nonsense, but I think the song is lovely and Kate's performance is wonderful.

I can't, for the life of me, see why anything else needs to be said.

If you don't like it, don't listen.

And I wish I had a pound for every time someone on Mudcat has tried to make that simple suggestion, seemingly to no avail.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 07:08 AM

What the hell does it matter who I am?

It is precise definitions of music for the purpose of intelligent comparison and discussion that are at stake here.

As it happens I have been involved in music journalism and research since before GS embarked upon his intimidatory pursuit of women. I have not, however, done a paid gig for 30 years (and never in Lincolnshire) and so people can draw their own conclusions about the very odd lies which fly about surprisingly often from those who claim to have seen and heard me where I was not.

GS (and others) admitted quite blatantly to ogling women rather than keeping his eyes and mind on the performance. My concern is to ensure that music venues are safe for women to be. At the time many women contacted me offlist about how intimidated they had felt when on the wrong end of predatory behaviour at venues but were too scared to speak out. I'm not.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 07:18 AM

yeh well some performances are like that....

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 07:28 AM

I know Georgiansilver and he is a thoroughly decent bloke. What a load of bollocks this thread has become.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Fudged
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 07:39 AM

That Diane Easyb's a right laught in't she? should be on the telly (alongside Papa Doc and Mao Tse Tung)
Swears a helluva lot for someone so well educated . Strange paradox in her reluctance to type the word folk (go on - do it, just for me).
This thread is indeed a complete load of bollocks - but it's had me chuckling for the last wee while.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: van lingle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 08:03 AM

"GS (and others) admitted quite blatantly to ogling women rather than keeping his eyes and mind on the performance."

This problem could be easily solved in a Shaker-like fashion by providing seperate entries for the two sexes and the erection
(pardon the use of this term) of a "chastity wall" in performance venues to prevent predation which in turn would prevent fraternization which in turn would prevent the propagation of future folksingers...o.k. I haven't worked out all the details yet.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 08:07 AM

Talking of ones mind drifting during performances reminds me of an incident. I was gigging this pub - somewhere in the depth of Warwickshire, waiting for my turn to go on, and my concentration started to wander and i was checking out the room's decor. there were plates hung on the wall.

When I got 'onstage', the first thing I said was, look those plates with red indian prints on that they sell in the Radio times! somebody actually buys that shit!

The Landlady was convulsed with laughing and the Landlord shouted, That was MY choice, smartarse!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 08:55 AM

Yes, it's amazing the amount of shit some people will fall for when the wrong sort of misinformation is heaped upon them. Buy this, you know you want it. No you don't.

Like when sitting along a sea wall somewhere playing English tunes and this person with a gaggle of kids announced to them: 'That's Irish music'. 'No, it bloody well isn't', I told them, complete with demonstration of what is dotted and what is not.

And it's even worse to try and con people into thinking MOR mainstream shit is English music too, or that women must comply with male oppression or the world will come to an end. You belong to me so do what I bloody well say. What bollocks. Some men should just take a look at themselves once in a while.

Imposing what they imagine to be their god-given will and lack of taste on the status of women as well as on music is going to end in tears. Theirs.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 09:46 AM

Another convert gained for folk music...?

fee like that scouser in the Harry Enfield Show, Calm down...!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Fudged
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 10:05 AM

I suppose most of Diane's foul mouthing in this thread is based on the idea that ..

"You belong to me so do what I bloody well say. What bollocks. Some men should just take a look at themselves once in a while."

Bad news for you Diane - You Belong To Me was written by a woman (Chilton Price) a professional musician and student of music appreciation.
I think most versions of the song have been performed by women too, including of course, the one you're bumping your gums about here.
How's that for a dose of "dispassionate accuracy"?
So there we have it 'nice' little Kate Rusby is not only the anti-christ of English folk music, she's also a rampant opressor of men-folk (no wonder John McCusker's hair stands on end!) singing in an accent that doesn't really exist.
I never realised she was so complex!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 10:09 AM

what is puzzling Diane - is how do you manage? I don't suppose musicians are really any more libidinous than traffic wardens, or teachers, anybody - but the presence of alcohol in venues and the night and the music does tend to weave its none to subtle spell.

I should have though GS's ogle 4O years ago, when he was young and the sap was rising, could be thrust into the background of your relationship. Time to let go...sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 10:41 AM

As a matter of fact I am perfectly well aware of the origins of the crap song in question and who wrote it.

My objections are twofold:

(1) against ANYONE of whichever gender who claims collar & lead stylee ownership over another person.

(2) specifically here (as it pans out that way) against those men who impose their imagined 'superiority' (whether of knowledge or predatory behaviour) on those who neither need or want it.

Isn't it extraordinary (no perhaps it isn't) that some remain quite incapable of examining the horrific nature of their behaviour and, additionally, find it equally impossible to assimilate my objection to the sycophantic adulation of these vile piece of pap as an example of 'English music'.

I don't actually give a stuff what the kRusby does and I deplore entirely references to her personal life. How dare you bring that into it? She's a singer of mostly pop songs that do not interest me. What does concern me is the status of English music. And she has not a lot to do with it.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 10:49 AM

Written by the all-knowing Diane Easby yet again   >>>>>>>>>>>>>As it happens I have been involved in music journalism and research since before GS embarked upon his intimidatory pursuit of women. I have not, however, done a paid gig for 30 years (and never in Lincolnshire) and so people can draw their own conclusions about the very odd lies which fly about surprisingly often from those who claim to have seen and heard me where I was not.

GS (and others) admitted quite blatantly to ogling women rather than keeping his eyes and mind on the performance. My concern is to ensure that music venues are safe for women to be. At the time many women contacted me offlist about how intimidated they had felt when on the wrong end of predatory behaviour at venues but were too scared to speak out. I'm not.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

My pursuit of women has never been intimidatory, predatory, or even offensive as any decent women I have made acquaintance with will tell you.
I have never admitted to quite blatantly ogling women rather than keeping eyes or mind on performance! Nor have any others on mudcat that I am aware of. I have a healthy regard for women and for pesonal space as anyone who knows me will verify and some have tried although Diane you are too thick skinned to want to see the truth.
The 'blatantly ogling women' statement came from none other than yourself and your imagination...as the other threads you 'contributed to will bear out on close scrutiny. You labelled me a pervert...you labelled Lincolnshire men "Backwoodsmen"......You are wrong on both counts...
You are now just some sad person who has lost track of reality and everyone seems to have picked up on that.
Please Diane...get real and get a life! Then perhaps we can have a few decent debates on sensible issues rather than the childish playground behaviour and language we witness from you.

Ted, thanks also for your posts....hope to meet up again soon...has been too long mate.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:03 AM

Who the hell's Ted?
Yet another 'all boys together out on the pulling rampage'?
The silver teapot puts up a post about a particularly shit song with dodgy connotations in the sexual politics field by a mainstream, slightly f*lk-tinged semi-popstar and uses it not only to attempt, lamely, to justify his frankly appalling attitude to women but also to blame me for not succumbing to his dubious protestations.

Well, I don't actually give a stuff what you do in the wilds of Lincolnshire (apart from fearing for the women who live there).

You want a fucking debate? Drop the 'good enough for f*lk' crap, discover what English music actually is, resolve not to shout down those who actually know already . . . and there is a vague possibility.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:30 AM

Wow...what an asshole. Diane, you don't just take the cake, you ARE the cake!

I sure like everything I've heard Kate Rusby do. She is an exceptionally talented English singer who clearly believes in every song she sings. Thanks for the link which leads one to an abundance of other songs performed by Kate.

Whoops, did I say something wrong?

W-O

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:37 AM

Welcome to the Diane Easby Show.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: harpmolly
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:41 AM

Amazing...truly amazing. It just proves my theory that for some bizarre reason, the Mudcat is utterly incapable of hosting a Kate Rusby-related thread that doesn't descend into verbal assault and name-calling.

Pretty impressive, given the subject is a lovely young Yorkshire lass with a sweet voice and a propensity for folk ballads. I mean, clearly, she is deserving of all the scorn heaped upon her and more. *rolls eyes*.

I don't get it.

Molly

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:41 AM

This thread started Diane, as an expression of my appreciation for one girls voice singing a particular song..nothing more-nothing less.
Once again you have taken your personal route away from that to try to show your dubious 'expertise' in everything from Folk music to 'men' and their behaviour. Once again I will desist from posting further on this thread because of your larger than life presence which is at least unwelcome and at most pathetic.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:45 AM

Incidentally, in reply to your who is Ted?....Ted is a rampant transvestite who came from Upper Ramsbottom...and has a penchant for has-been female journalists.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:47 AM

the dialect is what is spoken, the accent is what it is spoken with.
The song You Belong To Me wasn't a particularly good song, as the standards went, to begin with.Depending on what Kate Rusby sings I either like what she's doing or I don't.In conclusion let me say that Diane Easby has once more succeeded in riling up the crowd which is some she IS truly good at, this based on an exhaustive reading of many of the threads here at Mudcat(shows you what little life I have *LOL*).

*and now back to The Diane Easby Show, brought to you in part by Celtic Music* ;-)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:56 AM

kR sings in an accent that doesn't really exist

intoned some git who also made intrusive comments about her former marriage.
Yes the accent exists, but it's not a dialect. Go figure the difference.

A bold and certainly coarse fisherman who has delusions that he saw me sing (who is this person who keeps on being mistaken for me?) is the latest to be tripped up by total ignorance of Child 68. My former name was a shitproof umbrella to come on here four years ago when the usual suspects were administering a kicking to a young performer the moment he left on an overseas tour.

Same 'suspects' of limited comprehension are trying to make out that I 'don't like' kR. I've said twice in the thread that she's 'very nice' (which is what I always say) but that I know her not at all well. What she does, however, has altered not one iota in the past 12 years so I don't need to follow her career too closely.

I object to her being set up as a representative of 'English music'. She's no such thing. She's a bloody pop singer with the sole aim of getting onto MOR playlists. And the particular song that was put up in this thread is shit, for all the reasons I have fully explained for the slow to comprehend.

She's doing perfectly well, thenking you, and will lose no sleep, nor even mind, that I don't like what she does. But it's misleading to say she represents English music. She doesn't.

The thread is obviously about what constitutes English music and, more importantly, what doesn't. You Belong To Me doesn't. It's shit and that needs to be said. And it's about behaviour, as I said. Those who don't know how to.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:05 PM

Actually, CMM, I don't 'rile up' anybody.
I deal in facts,
It's just beyond a lot of people to read and assimilate so they make up what they think they see.
That's why I did a brief résumé up there of just a few things I actually said.
Don't why I bother really as this thread has managed to round up all the English-loathing, 'good-enough-for-f*lk', sexist, cloth-eared gits on Mudcat,

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: van lingle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:06 PM

diane your shadow boxing. i didn't see anyone here try to pass this off as english folk music. to me it's just a charming little ditty being sung by a fine singer. i don't care if she's from bf egypt.vl

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:07 PM

"The thread is obviously about what constitutes English music and, more importantly, what doesn't."

Actually GS only said he liked KR's version of a particular song. No mention was made about whether or not it 'constitutes English music.'

As a side note, I have never thought this particular song meant 'I own you,' I always heard it as more along the lines of 'please come back.'

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:07 PM

"The thread is obviously about what constitutes English music and, more importantly, what doesn't."

Hello? I have this quaint idea that whoever starts a thread defines what it is "obviously about". If the quote below means the same thing as the quote above, either I am semantically challenged, or someone else is.

Said Georgiansilver:
"Only recently discovered Kate Rusby personally and so enjoy this cover of "You belong to me", complete with the accent, that I thought I might share it with you...What a voice      
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP6us-ZeiSk
Best wishes, Mike."

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:09 PM

This thread is surreal.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:13 PM

"what constitutes English music and, more importantly, what doesn't. You Belong To Me doesn't."

I don't think anyone ever said it did...and it states quite clearly on Kate Rusby's album who wrote it, and it isn't Trad. Arr. Heck if The Bunch (Sandy Denny, Richard and Linda Thompson, Pat Donaldson, Ashley Hutchings, Gerry Conway, Dave Mattacks and Trevor Lucas and Co.)can perform and record some of their favourite rock 'n' roll, and The Ashley Hutchings Big Beat Combo do the same thing ; why can't Kate Rusby record a standard? Though admitedly it was something of a mistake, but that's a personal opinion.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:13 PM

The thread is obviously about what constitutes English music and, more importantly, what doesn't

Indeed. What doesn't.
This song (and rendition) has absolutely fuck all to do with what constitutes English music.
I'm in business to clarify what does and not let the mainstream musbiz hijack the term (again) and con people into thinking any old shit (such as this) has anything whatsoever to do with our national cultural heritage.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:14 PM

D'ya think, Cluin? Well, it's too hot out to do real work.

W-O

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:17 PM

Hello? Diane? It's not anyone trying to con anyone else into thinking anything...at least the recording in question isn't. It's a girl singing a song. They do that, y'know.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:18 PM

What about that Bob Dylan bloke; he wrote "She Belongs to Me"?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:20 PM

"I'm in business to clarify what does and not let the mainstream musbiz hijack the term (again) and con people into thinking any old shit (such as this) has anything whatsoever to do with our national cultural heritage."

Oh, she's a folk nazi. Making music must only further the cause. You're on notice, world... anybody who steps out of line, beware.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:24 PM

Nope, just another attempt by someone to hijack for their personal crusade. I believe the title and the first post defines what this is about. It was Easby's post of 08 Aug 07 - 03:46 AM that introduced the trad piece although the thread had been hijacked by herself and her detractors much earlier, like in about the fourth post.

Folks, Diane isn't the subject here. If you don't like her style (I have come to find it amusing btw),just ignore the style and address the substance. Or ignore altogether, but don't hijack the thread. We have all been far too guilty of that of late.

I love Rusby's voice, don't much care for the subject or arrangement of this one though

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:26 PM

Actually, I'm equally in business to ensure that the neo-nazis as well as the musbiz are not allowed to hijack English music. But imagine that's far too complex for you to grasp.
Especially as you have not a clue what the cultural heritage constitutes and how conventions can be broken as long as it is respected.

Oh, no. Far too difficult . . .

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:28 PM

You are a riot, Diane. Never change.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:32 PM

"What about that Bob Dylan bloke; he wrote "She Belongs to Me"? "

I do blieve we're referring to the standard You Belong to Me, written by Chilton Price (though also credited to Redd Stewart and Pee Wee King)The Kate Rusby version is to be found on her 2005 album The Girl Who Couldn't Fly
some information on Chilton Price

Chilton Price

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:32 PM

Well, quite Mick.

It's not about me.
It's just that people too dim to follow the concept of the public perception of English music resort to the ridiculous tactic of 'don't understand so we'll kick the messenger'.

Try reading the sodding message.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:32 PM

I don't think there's much danger of that, Cluin.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:36 PM

Change?
No, as long as big girl's blouses like the teapot post up shit I'll be here to knock it down.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:45 PM

I take it that means anytime someone posts a link to a Kate Rusby recording, or any other artist of whom you disapprove, you will take that as an invitation to belittle other peoples' tastes, intelligence, and knowledge under the pretext of "it's hijacking English music".

What a beacon of light you are indeed. We are not worthy. Thanks again.

W-O

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:53 PM

Sigh.
And I know perfectly well that this crap song is a composed . . . er thrown together . . . piece.
I've already said so.
I never said anyone was claiming it as Trad/arr.
Point is that a kazillion English musicians are doing composed/standard/former hits (call them what you will) in a particular English style mainly for dancing.
This is what has always happened and many found their way into the tradition, though this will happen no longer, as a result of the digital revolution.
This insertion of You Belong To Me (yuk) onto a kR album is in exactly the same vein as, say, Till There Was You stuck onto a Beatles album 40+ years ago.
It was de rigeur then but ever so boring and now it is more so.
English dance music does things in a completely new and fresh way.
And now I'm going out. This is too tedious.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:58 PM

I used to like Fletch singing it in Porridge.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:01 PM

"What about that Bob Dylan bloke; he wrote "She Belongs to Me"? "

A little research reveals that Dylan infact recorded Chilton Price's song

Chilton Price on hearing Dylan's version of her song

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:06 PM

"Point is that a kazillion English musicians are doing composed/standard/former hits (call them what you will) in a particular English style mainly for dancing."

Now that's hilarious, because the arrangement of When Will I Be Loved on The Bunch Rock On, sung by Sandy Denny and Linda Peters, is, infact, The Everly Brothers original arrangement, unlike the Linda Ronstadt version which isn't. *LOL*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:18 PM

Diane Easby-you are rubbish person and a big trubble maker, and i bet you dont even like folk music, you just like to make trubble.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:33 PM

What really pisses me off about Mudcat are the vast numbers of myopic pigeons who home in to a busy thread, don't bother to read the subject line, never mind the posts and . . . SPLATT (as pigeons do).

No matter how carefully you may have composed your responses, writing carefully to topic with elucidating facts, references and explanations . . . splatt, splatt, splatt. Never mind the issues, just make a mess and flutter off.

I recommend a visit to the optician, ultra-strong reading glasses and a recharged power pack for the brain.

Brain? Oh dear no. Far too much to ask.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:38 PM

Thank you! Thank you!

That was Diane Ego, folks! Let's give `er a big hand!

*clap*

*clap*

*clap*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:41 PM

Let me see...it seems Ms Easby objects to English artists including covers of popular songs on their albums. Because English dance music is "fresh and new"...and also "This is what has always happened and many found their way into the tradition, though this will happen no longer, as a result of the digital revolution."

Not that I care, but if the departed Ms Easby were to acquaint herself with the concept of the "unclear antecedent", as explemplified by excessive use of "this" and "that", and edit her posts accordingly, then we could perhaps get a little closer to comprehending her declamations.

I am, however, in awe of her psychic ability to know what "will happen no longer", whatever she may mean. (See "unclear antecedent")

Personally I find it hard to believe that the "digital revolution" has stopped well-known artists from re-popularizing songs they perform and record. If that's what Diane meant.

Anyway, enough of this.
I remain, your humble servant
Willie-O

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:50 PM

Interesting information CMM; actually I just chucked that line in as a bit of levity since the original title was deemed to be sexist then surely Dylan's must be too! To stay on topic I thought that "You Belong To Me" was a rather ordinary track on what was a disappointing album. In the context of Kate's progression that is.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:52 PM

I do not object to English artists doing covers. Where did I say that? Nowhere.
Though if they're shit I do. Because they are.

Composed tunes incorporated today into dance music will not become 'traditional' because it is no longer possible to forget who wrote them.
This is surely bleedin' obvious.

Your final paragraph is complete nonsense. The digital revolution means that attribution is simpler than ever. Obvious to non-tossers.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:59 PM

*LOL* Now that's a great name for a band, Diane Easby's Ego...and their first album F*lk That

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 02:12 PM

F*lk That

Been done.
Do keep up.
And I've had far better band names than that.
NOT incorporating my name.
Because it's not and never has been about me.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 02:13 PM

And [100], READ THE THREAD.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 02:52 PM

'Composed tunes incorporated today into dance music will not become 'traditional' because it is no longer possible to forget who wrote them.
This is surely bleedin' obvious.'

The songs that have captured the public imagination in the last 100 or so years have been composed (and I suppose someone had to compose even the ones that are anon.)

I feel that my great grandparents, grandparents, parents and me should be accorded some place in this glorious tradition. Why has folk music got to be the stuff that relates to some forgotten rural idyll? Why can't it be the stuff that relates to the actual 'folk' - however impure and racially sullied you feel ourse;ves and our tastes to be.

'no longer possible to forget who wrote them.....'

Chilton Price... I'd forgotten her, if I ever actually knew.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 02:53 PM

And the PRS do a pretty good job of forgetting me, come to that.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 03:17 PM

"And I've had far better band names than that."

ahhhh...but none so appropriate.....

"Because it's not and never has been about me"

but thy name and ego are writ large upon this thread...as I said earlier you have once more succeeded in riling up the mobs at large, once more. Well Done!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: gnu
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 03:49 PM

T R O, LL I N G, M O U T H. Trolling mouth, .... c'mon, you know the words boys and girls....

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 03:58 PM

This thread could be nominated for Mudcat's 'Funniest ever' (Or most tee-jus, depending on which side one's funnybone is buttered).

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:04 PM

It's not funny at all and ought to be addressing profound issues.
Trouble is, most contributors are far to thick to recognise what they are.
Anyway, I said it was tee-jus many posts ago.
The pub will be infinitely more interesting.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:09 PM

Ah, a gnu.

I'm a gnu—I'm a gnu
The g-nicest work of g-nature in the zoo
I'm a gnu—how do you do?
You really oughtta g-know w-who's w-who

Flanders & Swann did mention you weren't all that bright.
Y'see, the trolls ain't arrived yet.
(That would be madlizziecornish and uncleboko and their many aliases).

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: gnu
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:18 PM

There it is. Thanks for taking the time to confirm I was talking about you. At least you know you are as stunned as a bat. Goodbye.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:21 PM

We don't agree with whats'er face so we be all thick in't 'ead,well some of us have heard of Flanders and Swann and look,she's talking about imaginary trolls...hell she's even got names for them it seems.....cooking sherry does that you know...*LOL*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:33 PM

Now that the silliness seems to have run its course, may I revert to when we were all very young, at 4.11pm on 7/8, when I for one learnt that:

'In mainland Britain there are two academically-recognised dialects.
Lowland Scots and Yorkshire Dales.'

No troll, no axe to grind, nothing intended except to clarify the point: what disqualifies all the other commonly accepted dialects from actually being dialects? Five minutes on Google gave me references to East Midlands, Lincolnshire, London, Geordie, West Country, Leicestershire, Nottingham and Derbyshire dialects, all on the BBC alone, and an AS level study course, presumably written by an academic which dealt in detail with various 'dialects'.

I grew up thinking that my country relatives spoke (and sang) in a Suffolk dialect. So many local words, most now largely out of use - more than just an accent, surely?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:46 PM

I'm from Derbyshire originally, and too right there's an East Midlands dialect, as I said somewhere further back there, the dialect is what is spoken and the accent is what is used to speak that dialect....and if certain people from North Yorkshire want to argue with the Oxford English Dictionary, far be it from me to stop them.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Fadge Boy
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:52 PM

'Derby born and Derby bred,
Strong in the arm and thick in the head.'

No, offence, CMM, though we'll raht it dahn the twitchle if yers gorra mo.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 05:17 PM

No it isn't.
Liverpool? Jesus Christ.
The 'uncleboko' troll printed out swathes of my CV the other day.
No idea why but I'm surprised you missed it.
. . . since you have little better to do.



David Crystal, Linguistics Professor at Bangor, said in the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language:

Varieties of language can be distinguished not only by their vocabulary and grammar, but also by differences in phonology. Where distinctions are limited to phonology, the term accent is often used instead of dialect.

Using this definition, Professor Crystal defined only two true dialects in mainland Britain, Yorkshire Dales and Lowland Scots.

Obviously, many accents think they're bigger than that and have equipped themselves with gunboats and small navies. Their aim is to become dialects and even languages.

I am merely quoting the current academic definition and don't, otherwise, give a toss.

Just go ahead and invent as many dialects as you like.

I thank you.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 05:19 PM

Well, having watched the YouTube clip, I can only comment that the song is saccharine, tin-pan alley pap, and the delivery does no justice to Ms Rusby's talents. It certainly isn't my cup of tea.
If you want to see someone doing real justice to a contemporary ditty, I can recommend Spiers and Boden doing Tom Waits' 'Innocent When You Dream'. It's on YouTube if you look for it.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 05:28 PM

Innocent When You Dream

Ha!
Appropriate too.
'The bats are in the belfry . . .'

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 05:31 PM

Thank you for your courteous reply, Diane.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 05:50 PM

Do you see what I mean...? and there's whole threads of her nonsense. If she's not insulting people's musical tastes, she's insulting the people. She'd make a tee-totaler into a drunk, I swear.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 06:15 PM

>>>>>>>>>>>David Crystal, Linguistics Professor at Bangor, said in the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language:

Varieties of language can be distinguished not only by their vocabulary and grammar, but also by differences in phonology. Where distinctions are limited to phonology, the term accent is often used instead of dialect.

Using this definition, Professor Crystal defined only two true dialects in mainland Britain, Yorkshire Dales and Lowland Scots.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
WRONG yet again Diane!!!!!!
Want a list of dialects Diane?
Includes many such as Edinburgh, Cumbria, Liverpool etc etc.
CRYSTAL clear I would say!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: van lingle
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 07:18 PM

diane, you are the malt vinegar on my freedom fries.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: harpmolly
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 10:00 PM

LOL!

This thread really is surreal. I wanted to pop back in and quickly assert that 1) I'm not a particular fan of this song, though I am of KR in general; and 2) I find it hilarious that the ersatz Diane Easby has spent half the thread bitching about how people HERE erroneously claim that KR "represents" English music, and yet there was no such claim made. The first notion of the concept was in Diane's own post of 3:46 am.

So it seems to me that Diane has knowingly hijacked this thread into a confrontation about whether KR represents English music, irrespective of a reader or poster's feelings about the SPECIFIC SONG discussed. She seems to have the opinion that any unsuspecting schmo who happens upon Kate's music online will immediately form a horribly skewed impression of English music as a whole. All I can say is, if the schmo in question is that narrow-minded and lazy, who cares what opinion they form?

I can't wait until Kate's new album comes out next month. Then we'll have a whole new source of material to trample and spit on. Jesus friggin' Christ, people, she's not Mussolini, she's a damn folk musician!

Why am I allowing myself to get sucked into this? Kate doesn't need me to defend her. She got the measure of the Folk Police some time ago, and has come to the realization that the bloated self-importance of critics like Diane needn't cause her any more pain. People who like her albums buy them. People who don't, don't. She's not Eliza Carthy, and she's not Nic Jones, and she's not whoever the hell we all think she should be. Get over yourself, Miss Easby.

Charmingly yours,

Molly

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 10:25 PM

This is why I love you, Molly............LOL!!!!

Mick

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: harpmolly
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 10:37 PM

Awww...I've gone bright red :)

M

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 02:22 AM

As I said, far too much to expect peeps to actually read what's written. Those plopping pigeons have been by again.

she's a damn folk musician

No I'm not.
The very word 'f*lk', meaningless and abused as it is, is why most people fail the grasp the faintest notion of what it actually is.
Should be binned forthwith.
And, as mentioned, I haven't done a paid gig for decades.

Want a list of dialects?

No. I've already quoted the academically accepted list of two mainland Britain dialects. kR is singing a shit song in her native Barnsley accent. It's hard to know why.

horribly skewed impression of English music

It's not just the damaging nonsense of flagging up recordings of fakesong imitations such as this. A US radio station was at it the other day, peddling pop band SoH as though it were 'English music'. It bloody well isn't.

You lot might be content to wallow in a morass of MOR, R2-generated pap indistinguishable from the rest of the mainstream shit. Some even talk of 'f*lk crossover hits'. All around my bleedin' hat on a day trip to Bangor, presumably. I won't be ceasing any time soon from urging everyone to come away (Melinda) and bang the door very tight shut.

A couple of nights ago someone started a thread just to get away from this lowest common denominator dumbing down on what CDs to lend to a newcomer. Should be an entrance test before anyone is permitted even to open their mouths about English music. Define your subject matter before you speak. Ha! Some hope.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Kampervan
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 02:36 AM

O.K., I've been following this thread since it started and one of the things that seems to be missing is a description/definition of 'English music'.

Would someone like to oblige?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 02:45 AM

No different from the tradarts of any nation or culture: it's local music with a sense of roots, place and community.
Not mass-produced pap that's undergone cultural ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: harpmolly
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 02:48 AM

Hmmm...odd, that. I would argue that "English music" could be defined as ANY music either composed or performed by someone FROM ENGLAND. I know that doesn't fit your extremely narrow definition, but hey, you're also the one asking us to "define our subject matter". If you want to impose your narrow views on a specific genre, be my guest, but "English" and "music" are both pretty broad terms.

And I find it quite funny that you complain of no one reading "what's written" but in the very next paragraph, you misinterpret my words. I was referring to Kate Rusby as a "damn folk musician", not yourself. As for "what is folk", I'm certainly not going to get into that here. There's quite enough mudslinging and histrionics on this thread to be going on with as it is, I think. *grin*.

As to your statement that Kate is "singing a shit song in her native Barnsley accent...it's hard to know why", oh, I don't know, maybe it's because she LIKES THE SONG. I tend to perform and record songs I personally enjoy performing and recording, rather than subjecting them to a long list of "does this hold up under the weight of every narrow-minded musical zealot that's likely to listen to it?" regulations.

Cheers,

Molly

(who realizes this thread is karmic payback for her past declamations of "Celtic Woman Is Eeeeeeeeevil!!!" *big grin*)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 03:08 AM

narrow definition

It's not the definition I proposed that's narrow.
The provenance of music played by English musicians could be just about anywhere.
As a maritime nation, it always has been.
It depends on how that music is played and what it is played on and incorporated into the indigenous tradition that matters.
Local music with a sense of place as I said.
Anything 'celtic' usually is evil, unless it's from musicians steeped in their own tradition and have taken the trouble to re-create ancient instruments and authentic texts.
As opposed to commercialised, wifty-wafty, new-age shit.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: harpmolly
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 03:12 AM

*Molly's head spins around and around and then explodes*

Look at this mess. That's where attempting logic gets me.

Pardon me, I have to find a mop...

:)

Molly

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Phil
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 03:31 AM

Kate sings in a Barnsley accent because she comes from there, ten miles down the road in Sheffield the accent is totaly different, not rocket science is it. Can you make that into some kind of argument Diane Easby.

A quick lesson in Yorkshire speak, "To get some ones attention"

Barnsley -- Ey up

Sheffield -- Nah den dee

I have kept it simple for you, so even you can grasp it D. E.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 03:39 AM

Then perhaps you should go and do what was suggested way above and go and listen to Jon Boden doing Innocent When You Dream for a start.
This is an English musician interpreting a Tom Waits composition in an entirely English style.
Or look at the work of Simon Ritchie as an obvious example (or that of any eceilidh band) to recognise how these musicians are incorporating and adapting music from what you might (but I don't) categorise as from outside the genre (simply because I don't recognise it as such) and making it their own.
This is directly opposed to just taking mainstream pap and reproducing it as identikit McMuzak in a back-to-front baseball hat.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 03:46 AM

The above was for harpmolly.
Does anyone know what bigphil is talking about?
Or what it has to do with defining an English style of music?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: s&r
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 03:54 AM

Just for interest in the name of English Folk Music

"Simon Ritchie: 'Squeezebox Schizophrenia' (X-Tradition Records TMM 1956, Goldens Farm, Boyton End, Thaxted, Essex CM6 2RB or phone [phone])

If you are expecting a traditional melodeon album when you hear this CD, you are in for a surprise. Simon Ritchie plays and sings hits from the 60s 70s and 80s as well as traditional, classical and self composed tunes.

The standard of the playing is amazing. He manages to do things with the instrument that are above and beyond the call of duty. Simon's voice is very reminiscent of traditional gypsy singers, so it takes some getting used to hearing songs like the Sex Pistols' Anarchy In the U.K. with melodeon accompaniment. Having said that, Move Over Darling and I Wanna Hold Your Hand fit like a glove. "

Stu

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 07:20 AM

Diane you state:->>>>>>>>>>>No. I've already quoted the academically accepted list of two mainland Britain dialects. kR is singing a shit song in her native Barnsley accent. It's hard to know why.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Previously you stated:-
>>>>>>>>>>>David Crystal, Linguistics Professor at Bangor, said in the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language:

Varieties of language can be distinguished not only by their vocabulary and grammar, but also by differences in phonology. Where distinctions are limited to phonology, the term accent is often used instead of dialect.

Using this definition, Professor Crystal defined only two true dialects in mainland Britain, Yorkshire Dales and Lowland Scots.<<<<<<<

"The academically accepted list you quoted has come from one professor at one university....he must be right then???????
Take a look at the British Library site on dialects and the site I gave a link for above .....it would appear to me that you are the only academic (or you believe you are) that accepts Crystals' word as totally correct. Perhaps he only defined two by choice as he had little time to go into them all! or maybe you just got it wrong again!! Where's your source? Where's your proof?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 07:24 AM

Well Well...someone has started a thread on accents and dialects....perhaps a quick peek at the website link in the first post.....Diane....just put 'Dialects' into the search box...and away ye go to the land of proof that you are indeed wrong and so is your professor Crystal if what you have quoted is true....I don't know..these universtities, they can't get the staff these days can they?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 07:52 AM

Anyone who disagrees with a leading academic's definition is free to sail off in a gunboat and fight them for the right to call their accent a dialect, or their dialect a language.
Been done before.
All David Crystal was doing was providing a linguistic definition, so that people would be clear what they were talking about (ha!)
I find, on the whole, that this assists rational discussion and prevents participants from rampaging off-topic and down blind alleys.
It wouldn't have mattered if Prof Crystal had called accents 'fish pies' and dialects 'apple charlottes' (or whatever).
Well, it might to him . . . it's his definition.
But it's not my personal fault.
I've said before that I couldn't give a toss whether you describe what's spoken in Little Hicksville-by-the-Haystack an accent or a dialect.
Except that it has already been defined academically which precludes the need agonise over which term to use. Or should.
As I said, sail your gunboat round to Bangor if you want to argue the toss.
You might take in some actual Welsh trad and ditch the MOR shit in the sea.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 08:12 AM

Diane. Are you so blind that you cannot see the truth when it faces you or are so so totally ignorant that you choose to ignore academia when offered? The British Library does not agree with your professor, neither does the site on the accents and dialects thread...what does it take to make someone of your rigidity see the truth? Or even better 'admit' the truth?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 08:33 AM

I think that "you belong to me" is great song. I think Kate Rusby is great, but I do not think they are a match at all. And..Ms. Easby is ambitiously rude.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:30 AM

Fer chrissake, David Crystal is one of the leading academics in the world in the field of linguistics.
He was not, however, 'my' professor as I did not study at Bangor.
I quoted his definition in the interests of clarity.
His is the accepted academic treatise on the subject.
I don't give a stuff whether anybody prefers what's been uploaded to some tinpot website for their own quaintly jingoistic reasons.
This is science, not football fandom.
Now sail off in your flaming gunboat and get every accent, idiolect and speech impediment registered as a dialect or even a language.
Just what ease of international communication needs.
And the recording is still MOR mainstream shit.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:33 AM

"And the recording is still MOR mainstream shit."

So you have listened to it now? Earlier you said you had not.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:51 AM

Its really sunny outside and rather enjoyable.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 12:02 PM

Yes hasn't it been a beautiful day!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 12:32 PM

One of the things that troubles me about Ms. Easby is that I find myself in agreement with much of the core of what she says, but it gets lost in the arrogance, and the elitist image she projects. For instance when she says, "Fer chrissake, David Crystal is one of the leading academics in the world in the field of linguistics. He was not, however, 'my' professor as I did not study at Bangor. I quoted his definition in the interests of clarity." When one couples it with the other things she has said, it gets ignored as her attitude just causes folks to automatically assume she is being a pompous ass, when in fact she is correct. Had she simply laid out this man's cred's, when she used him as a cite, perhaps we wouldn't be arguing about her instead of the subject. It took me all of 90 seconds to go to Ask.com and pull up the following with regard to Mr. Crystal:

Crystal studied English at University College London between 1959 and 1962. He was a researcher under Randolph Quirk between 1962 and 1963, working on the Survey of English Usage. Since then he has lectured at the University of Wales, Bangor (UWB) and the University of Reading. He is currently an honorary professor and part-time lecturer of linguistics at UWB. His many academic interests include English language learning and teaching, forensic linguistics, language death, ludic linguistics (or language play), English style, Shakespeare, indexing, and lexicography. He is the Patron of the International Association of Teachers of English as a Foreign Language (IATEFL).

Crystal is the author, co-author, editor or translator of over 100 books on a wide variety of subjects, specialising among other things in editing reference works, including the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language (1987), the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language (1995), the Cambridge Biographical Dictionary, the Cambridge Encyclopedia itself, and the New Penguin Encyclopedia (2003). He has also edited literary works, and is Chair of the UK National Literary Association. He also has a strong line in books for the layman about linguistics and the English language, which use varied graphics and short essays to communicate technical material in an accessible manner. He hypothesises that globally English will both split and converge, with local variants becoming less mutually comprehensible and therefore necessitating the rise of what he terms World Standard Spoken English (cf International English). In his 2004 book The Stories of English, a general history of the English language, he wrote of the value he sees in linguistic diversity and the according of respect to varieties of English generally considered "non-standard". His non-linguistic writing includes poems, plays and biography. A Roman Catholic by conviction, he has also written devotional poetry and articles.

From 2001 to 2006, he served as the Chairman of Crystal Reference Systems Limited, a provider of reference content and Internet search and advertising technology. The company's products are based upon the patented Global Data Model, a complex semantic network that Crystal devised in the early 1980s and was adapted for use on the Internet in the mid 1990s. After the company's acquisition, he remains on the board as its R&D director.

So it appears that Mr. Crystal is, indeed, an accomplished scholar, and Diane's assertion that he is one of the leading academics in the field is correct. His opinions would seem to be a very legitimate predicate to base one's own arguments on.

Diane, you have much to offer. But the "take no prisoners, you are all a bunch of idiots" approach just causes your legitimate points to be lost in the fog.

And I still don't care much for this recording.

Mick

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 12:41 PM

It's absolutely wonderful outside the sun's really nice....

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 12:44 PM

David Crystal is but one source, find me two others that concur exactly with Mr/Doctor/Professor Crystal, and i might go along with him Until then I speak an East Midlands dialect with an East Midlands accent, so play that one on yer fiddle, Missus.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 01:03 PM

ooops and I am also that mysterious 'Guest'*LOL*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 01:08 PM

professor Crystal is but one source amongst many..that does not make him right as you would see if you checked the British Library link and the one on the accents and dialects thread.
I grew up with Devonshire dialect....left it behind but still have an almost hardly noticeable Devonshire accent.
Perhaps if people actually looked at the Dictionary definitions of accent and dialect...they might be a little more understanding of the whole silly debate.
There are many dialects and many accents and I don't have to be a professor to understand that..I only have to read what many others have written on the subjects.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 01:11 PM

Survey of English Dialects
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Survey of English Dialects was undertaken between 1950 and 1961 under the direction of Professor Harold Orton of the English department of the University of Leeds. It aimed to collect the full range of speech in England and Wales before local differences were to disappear. Standardisation of the English language was expected with the post-war increase in social mobility and the spread of the mass media. The project originated in discussions between Professor Orton and Professor Eugen Dieth of the University of Zurich about the desirability of producing a linguistic atlas of England in 1946, and a questionnaire containing 1,300 questions was devised between 1947 and 1952.

313 localities were selected from across England, the Isle of Man and some areas of Wales close to the English border. 404,000 items of information were gathered, and these were published as thirteen volumes of "basic material" beginning in 1962. The process took many years, and was prone to funding difficulties on more than one occasion.

The Linguistic Atlas of England was published in 1978, edited by Orton, John Widdowson and Clive Upton. Two further publications have been produced from the survey's material, Survey of English Dialect: The Dictionary and Grammar (1993) and An Atlas of English Dialects (1996), both co-authored by Upton and Widdowson.

A large amount of "incidental material" from the survey was not published. This is preserved at the Leeds Archive of Vernacular Culture, part of the School of English of the University of Leeds

You'd hardly neeed to publish an Atlas of English Dialects if there only were the one Diane claims. And I think the Leeds Archive might be as (if not more) authoritative on the subject than Professor Crystal.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 01:24 PM

"Really love the accent...especially the way she sings 'jungle' "

This rather innocuous looking comment is what spawned this whole dialect/accent brou-ha-ha. Incredible, really.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 01:48 PM

David Crystal on dialects on BBC News

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: s&r
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 01:53 PM

Varieties of language can be distinguished not only by their vocabulary and grammar, but also by differences in phonology. Where distinctions are limited to phonology, the term accent is often used instead of dialect

Note: 'is often used' not should be, or always. It's not uncommon in learned works to define terms for the purpose of the discussion. You might as well say accent and dialect are both used.

Stu

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 01:57 PM

'David Crystal, consultant to the Voices project, said: "Some of the old rural dialects have disappeared as that way of life has dwindled, but they are being replaced by a new range of dialects from ethnic groups as they settle into communities." '

A new range of dialects, he says. Interesting.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: countrylife
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 02:09 PM

a translation of the lyrics of You Belong To Me.


See t' pyramids along t' nile see t' sunrise fra eur tropic isle just rememba darlin, orl t' while you belong ta uz. see t' market place i' owd algiers sen' uz photographs 'n souvenirs just rememba when eur dream appears you belong ta uz. i'll be sa a sen wiyaa' tha maybe tha'il be lonesome too fly t' ocean i' eur silva plane see t' jungle when it's witched wi' rain just rememba while thas 'ooam agin you belong ta uz i'll be sa a sen wiyaa' tha maybe tha'il be lonesome too see t' pyramids along t' nile see t' sunrise fra eur tropic isle just rememba darlin, orl t' while you belong ta uz.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Phil
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 02:24 PM

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh a good old yorkshire dialect, or quite close to it anyway.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:20 PM

Zee the pyramids lung the Nyell,
Zee the zinrize vore a trobic ayell.
Juz r'memmer darlin' all the wyell.
You belungs ta me.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: pdq
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:31 PM

Better this song than another version of Tam Pierce.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:49 PM

Christ on a bike, Google makes experts of us all, doesn't it?
Still, maybe Georgiansilver is a professor of linguistics who hides his light under a very large bushel. Whatever. I thought the thread was about one particular Kate Rusby recording which some like and others (including me) don't. It ain't folk, though. End of. What's the big deal?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:55 PM

David Crystal has built a corporation as well as a cult of followers.
See his website- http://www.davidcrystal.com
David Crystal

He regards himself as the sole authority on the English language. If he beats his drum loudly enough, no one else will be noticed.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 05:29 PM

Oh, THAT song! The one about seeing pyramids along the Nile and all. Hey, that's a pop classic, if ever there was one. It was written in 1952 by Pee Wee King, Redd Steward, and Chilton Price. It was popularized by Joni James ("the Pepsi girl"), and was apparently her first recording. Also recorded by Jo Stafford and Patti Page, and in 1962 by the Duprees. I think the Duprees recording is the doo-wop version I'm thinking of, with the REALLY BIG ending.

Hey, why would this song be something to squabble about? It's a good song, and it's fun to sing. What else could anybody want?

And I wonder what's sillier - getting into a tizzy because Kate Rusby sang a classic pop song, or getting into a tizzy about somebody else getting into a tizzy. Is this pettiness the essential nature of folk musicians nowadays?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 05:32 PM

In actual fact the writing of it has been in dispute Joe. Ms Chilton-Price claims to have written it but others took share in her glory..so she says. Have heard not how the dispute has ended. if it has. but perhaps someone knows.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 05:47 PM

From the entry on Wikipedia for another Chilton Price song, Slow Poke:

"Slow Poke" is a popular song.I is credited to three writers: Pee Wee King, Redd Stewart, and Chilton Price. Actually Price wrote the song in 1951, as she thought the song described her friend, King, very well. King recorded the song and Stewart did the vocal. Price gave rights to the other two in exchange for publicity, as she felt she knew nothing about the music distribution business. The song did so well commercially that when Price wrote the song "You Belong to Me" the next year, she felt she could do better by ceding partial credit for authorship to King and Stewart than trying to publicize the song herself, so that song as well was credited to King, Stewart, and Price, though Price was the sole author.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 06:17 PM

The song is copyright King, Price and Stewart (listed alphabetical order) on the old recordings by Bing Crosby, Bennie Carter, Patsy Cline, Petula Clark, The Duprees, Alice Faye (my favorite), Connie Francie, Ella Fitzgerald, etc., etc.

Those old timers knew how to sing, with proper diction and musicality. All of them are preferable to this teeny fluff.

Haven't seen anything about arguments over the money, so they must all have been satisfied.

Elvis Costello seems to have written a song with the same title.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 06:31 PM

So did Carly Simon.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Dave Roberts
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 09:13 PM

Joe,

It's puzzling me too why anyone should want to cause a row over a nice song like 'You Belong to Me'. It's a period piece and I've no doubt that Kate Rusby's treatment of it is more affectionate than anything else.
Personally, I love all that old 50s stuff. It may be because I was born in the early part of the decade in question.
Anyway, I've spent quite a long time tonight listening to Kate Rusby tracks. She's very very good and comes across as a warm hearted and sincere performer.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: harpmolly
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 09:44 PM

Joe,

Ouch...you got me. I alway swear to myself I won't get sucked into other people's drama, and then I do. :) But hey, I scored a very sweet compliment from Big Mick, so it was worth it. *grin*

Again, I don't think this is the best of Kate's performances. It's just hard for me not to jump in when it seems like every Kate Rusby thread turns into a "Kate SUCKS!" diatribe sooner or later. And the whole dialect thing over "jungle/joongle" snowballing into a huge kerfuffle is way beyond me. Sorry for contributing to the petty zoo. ;)

Cheers,

Moll Doll

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Mr Ecofriendly
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 10:34 PM

Anyway, surely in these more enlightened days,
it Kate Rusby should be criticised for anything;

it must be for continuing to sing 'jungle'

instead of 'rain-forest'.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 09:15 AM

'See the rain-forest when it's wet with rain'

It needs work. Any lyricists out there?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 11:08 AM

'it must be for continuing to sing 'jungle'
instead of 'rain-forest'

In these politically inept times (or was that correct?) anything is possible

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 02:55 PM

Not so many silver planes about now either......

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 03:11 PM

I knew this song - and loved it - from hearing it as a kid in the 50s. Now, I think it was the plaintive ( folkie?) nature of the melody that I was responding to. I, too, feel that Kate has lost the "magic" contained in the original melody, and I wonder how that happened. Where did she learn the song? Not from the original recording I hope.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: fumblefingers
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 03:15 PM

I like her version of the song and her accent. I also like the Jo Stafford version and the Patsy Cline version. What's there to argue about? All this effing and blinding ought to be below in the BS section.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 03:24 PM

I, for one, wass't arguing, I was simply stating that Kate has somehow managed to take a classic 50s pop song and, somehow, lost the "magic" that was contained in the original melody. And, I was wondering how that happened. Did she, for example, bother to listen to any of those 50s recording, or did she get it "second hand" from somebody.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 04:31 PM

well I think Kate sounds cute and vulnerable and I want to protect her.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 05:55 PM

Kate heard the song in the original movie of 'Shrek' She loved it so she recorded it.

Shrek Soundtrack - 5th track down


Shrek

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 06:29 PM

The version in "Shrek" was pretty nondescript and non-melodic as well. Like most modern pop. More emphasis on recognizable vocal styling rather than melody (or often pitch).

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 08:52 PM

Attempting to be commercial never works ,it only ends in tears.,and destruction of credibility.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Brakn
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 09:49 PM

Haven't heard her version and I must say that I don't really like the song.

This thread hasn't got much to do with music and should go below the line.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 02:27 AM

Her version is available at the start of the thread. If you read the thread - you would find that, and also that most of the contributions were indeed concerned with Ms Rusby (a lady singer) - the way she sings, and the various views of her contribution to folk music (a variety of music, some of us like - and some deny the existence of).

Fair precis....?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 03:22 AM

There's nothing wrong with doing "folkie" versions of old pop songs. James Taylor, for example, usually makes a great job of such an enterprise.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:07 AM

And the reason James Taylor does that, is because he's a songwriter, and the songs are for the most part crafted beautifully.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:35 AM

I haven't looked at this ridiculous thread for several days, and I have every intention of failing to follow my own oft-repeated advice and NOT reading it.

However, Saturday Live on R4 (minus Ms Glover) has just played the thing by kRusby, interspersed with someone talking about their disabled children which was more than a bit bizarre.

I complain loud and often about those who take trad material and proceed to iron it out into conformity with trite, run-of-the-mill melodic structure and metre for commercial purposes. This is precisely what's been done to this version of the pop song in question, in much the same way as Cole Porter's Every Time We Say Goodbye is murdered by omitting the key change.

Well, well. This is taking 'good enough for f*lk' way, way too far, I'd say.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Jorrox
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 06:01 AM

James Taylor's version of She Thinks I Still Care is my favourite (even better than George Jones). Other JT covers such as How's The World Treating You, You Got A Friend and How Sweet It Is are pretty good too.
But I hate his version of Up On The Roof.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 06:08 AM

Saturday Live on R4

49 minutes into the programme.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 06:13 AM

Once again Diane comes up with an original but argumentative idea.

What you're saying about pop tunes though - people used to say about folk. Someone like Owen Brannigan would do the Rocky Road to Dublin, they would say - oh wonderful, he's taken all the crudity from it - or Moira Anderson would do Ye banks and Braes - and they would say she's added refinement.

Someone like Bo Diddley can get more subtlety and genius from a E major chord that most people can get from a set of slip jigs. Its all down to the artist.

The content and structure is in a way irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 12:19 PM

*whistles the simplest of tunes* yes another lovely day here, the garden is doing very well this year. Lovely crop of apples coming, I think. *wanders off down the garden*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 12:57 PM

Owen Brannigan doing The Rocky Road To Dublin?
The mind boggles.
We were taken as small children to one of his 'recitals'.
Cushy Butterfield just made us laugh.
Ower posh.

However. Bo Diddley and an E maj chord. Yes.
But how about E min and The Rochdale Coconut Dance?
That can take you to lots of places.

Content and structure are very relevant.
If you can't improve on them, leave them alone.
Meddling to lowest common denominator level leads to dumbing down.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 01:08 PM

'If you can't improve on them, leave them alone' - D Easby.

Thoroughly agree. Rusby's version of a very good song takes such liberties with the melody as to render it almost unrecognisable.

By the way, today's Daily Torygraph review of her album listed it under 'pop'.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: KeithofChester
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 01:15 PM

Oh yes, and it isn't as if the Torygraph don't have a folk section, because that has the Chris & Kellie While one in.

Daily Torygraph

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 01:29 PM

Of course kRusby's pop.
But then, so are the Whiles.
I feel an email to Colin Randall coming on.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 03:12 PM

Shame The Albion Band with Kellie While isn't still around, that would have saved Ms Kellie's folk soul :-D But the fates decided otherwise...and, here I find myself agreeing with Diane, pop she has become...what oh what possessed Fairport 69 to have Chris While fronting them for Liege & Lief..? Several far more appropriate singers come to mind...and to bring this posting back on topic, one of those names isn't Kate Rusby *LOL*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:59 PM

Mike : "Rusby's version of a very good song takes such liberties with the melody as to render it almost unrecognisable."

So? It's called art. It's called music. You, and the rest of you pompous twits that don't like it, turn the fuckin channel. Offer your opinion, yes. But to say shit like that? Gives me a pain.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:03 PM

It ain't art and it insults the name 'music.' It is childish simpering.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:09 PM

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:59 PM

Mike : "Rusby's version of a very good song takes such liberties with the melody as to render it almost unrecognisable."

So? It's called art. It's called music. You, and the rest of you pompous twits that don't like it, turn the fuckin channel. Offer your opinion, yes. But to say shit like that? Gives me a pain.

don't like it? turn the fuckin channel.*LOL*
hanged with your own words, boyo

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:40 PM

Remember, Gnu, no gain without pain-

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:57 PM

That's the best you got?

You are completely right. Why would I think any of you had any manners or common decency.

I said goodbye before but came back. Maybe it's me that needs some common sense.

Have fun with your trash fest. Oh, and be sure to PM me when you put out your next CD. Maybe you can even trash your own CD on Mudcat, eh?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 04:28 AM

hmmmmmm.....well you see gnu, that's part of the prob. we all make cds and they never get any exposure in mags and radio progs which earnestly say they are there to reflect the English folk music scene.

so you won't get to hear them, or see them or get a chance to trash them.

KR - well at least its a subject where we all have some idea of what is being discussed.

Anyway, if you're a fan cheer up - at least she's being discussed and nobody ever kicked a dead dog.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 07:11 AM

This thread has been quite amazing in its own way! I started it as I had 'discovered' Kate Rusby for myself...especially singing this one song which appealed to me. I didn't suggest it was F*lk music or that Kate is a F*lk singer or that it was 'good enough for f*lk'. Neither did I say the way she pronounces 'jungle' is unique or different from many other Yorkshire accents...we have had an argument about dialects/accents...on which subject another thread was started.
David Crystal was cited as the expert from whom the supposed fact that there are only two dialects in England had originated. Having read through David Crystals website and others related to it..it would appear he acknowledges that there are many 'dialects' some of which are 'new'.
I respect many opinions which have been given but will always fail to accept the 'holier than thou' attitude exhibited by anyone who thinks their knowledge outshines us mere backwoods mortals.
Since the days when songs were sung by drunken gentlemen...well O.K labourers.....at the end of harvest and sailors on board ship....those songs have become known as Folk songs.....traditional of course....but times are changing and so is the mode of song that appears in the Folk/accoustic/open mic genre.....I guess we have to live with it to some degree...everything changes over time. We do too. Progress is not always good but whatever we do to try to hold on to from the past...we can't! So can we not enjoy whatever music appeals to us in a broad minded spectrum without being criticised? I suppose not! Agh well! That's life eh?
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 11:39 AM

As staed previously, Lowland Scots (Lallans) is one of the two academically recognised dialects of MAINLAND BRITAIN, not England. Indeed, it is confined mainly, these days, to the Aberdeen region of the North-East Of Scotland. The other dialect of mainland Britain (that is to say the island of Great Britain, a geographical term), is that of the Yorkshire Dales.

There are other emerging linguistic speech forms on this island which are under consideration for classification as dialects, the most obvious being Black London, and which may, ultimately, be recognised as such.

A regional speech type with insufficient variation from the standard (or received) form of a language to be considered a dialect is an accent. While this may be deemed arbitrary by speakers with nationalist aspirations, it is merely an academic distinction for the sake of accuracy and not a putdown of their race, creed or ethnic validity. Which does not, however, deter them from launching the odd gunboat or medium-scale revolution.

To describe an 'accent' as a 'dialect' is on a par, linguistically, with persistently (and erroneously) employing (say) 'infer' for 'imply', 'flout' for 'flaunt' and 'reoccur' (grrrrrrr) for 'recur'. And ignoring the essential grammatical and orthographical difference between 'its' (possessive pronoun) and 'it's' (contraction of 'it is'). And all the rest of the howlers we see increasingly

A professor at Imperial College (one of our top universities) was lamenting this very morning the extraordinarily poor spelling of undergraduates, focussing, as it happens, on the word 'occur'. Not much scope for going wrong there, you'd have thought? Sadly, there is. Most of the population (and science undergraduates are no exception) is barely literate and becoming less so, regardless of the readily available facilities of search engines and spellcheckers.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:21 PM

"As staed previously, Lowland Scots (Lallans) is one of the two academically recognised dialects of MAINLAND BRITAIN"

Or, more precisely, one of the two recognised by one leading academic, and quoted from a reference book in which the author has not the space to explore the topic thoroughly. You'll find others who are more liberal in their interpretation of what constitutes a dialect, and of their distribution within Britain. When I studied language at a (Scottish) university, there was certainly an impetus to view Lallans not just as a dialect, but as a language as distinct from Standard English in its lexis and grammar as Danish is from Norwegian.

Also, bear it in mind that, from a strictly descriptive point of view, so-called Standard English is in itself a dialect of the language.

And Kate Rusby is boring.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:35 PM

Ho-hum, more digression.
Strangely, the Oxford English Dictionary accepts re-occur without comment.
1867, Atwater, "Logic;" "Whenever it is applied in such measure to these several subjects, they will re-occur." Logical, no?

Flout (flowt)- also flouting- have been around since the 16th c. in the sense of jeering, or behaving with disdain. It is adding the meaning of flaunt (making a show or display)- such if English as the spoken language evolves ('as she is spoken').
Flaunt has become rare, says the OED, a polite way of saying it is becoming obsolete.

As for the subject of this peculiar thread, the young maid, er, woman who recorded "You Belong to Me," there is still hope. Voice lessons and a diction coach can do wonders.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:43 PM

OK, one gunboat to the Scottish Parliament to reinforce the upgrading of Lallans.
Another to Barnsley to get Pure to give it a rest. (No more, no more . . . )
I haven't noticed 'flaunt' becoming rare.
Rather too much of it about, if you ask me, especially from that Northern Irish presenter on PM who regularly uses it instead of 'flout'.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Nick
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 02:06 PM

Going back to the beginning of the discussion...

I too think she has a good voice and enjoy her music. I first saw her in 2001 or 2002 locally playing in an intimate 200 seat venue just by herself with her voice and guitar and thought she was great.

I'm probably in a minority of one here but I sometimes feel that the odd Barnsley vowel is particularly emphasised as it's like a trademark - so there's a "joongle" and a "sunrise" with a nice short "u" but there's a "just" that is much less emphasised than on soom oother songs. Almost as though you can put in too much of a good thing I guess and I'm sure most people love it and would say 'it's just her'. It's just that it really sticks out in some songs and gets in the way of my listening. It's just a minor personal bee in bonnet thing though.

However it has had one side effect that I find slightly more annoying. I have noticed over the last four or five years increasing number of young female singers who sing certain songs in a 'shambarnsley' accent presumably because they reckon that's the way to do it right.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Nick
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 02:07 PM

Two hoondred?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 04:12 PM

What a dreadful song.

Whether she sings a version of 'Seven Drunken Nights', 'High Germany' or 'You belong to Me' - she makes them all sound the same.

Can't stand her poppy pap but then can't stand her interpretations of traddy stuff either.

The accent, whether it is or not, comes across as an affectation. (Rather like Mike Scott's extreme pronunciation of lyrics in later Waterboys stuff.) The fact that it is noticeable and that it makes the (my?) ears ache seems wrong.

'Orrible. Just 'orrible.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 08:16 PM

On the other hand, I listen to Kate Rusby's songs and they please me very much. I get pleasure from listening to them and any thoughts of whether or not Ms R's treatment of a given song is 'true folk' are far from my mind.
The only slightly controversial thing I have to say is that, in my opinion, people should abandon this 'folkier than thou' attitude and just listen to the music they like.
If I decide that, for example, 'Long Haired Lover From Liverpool' is a valid 'folk song' then I will stick to that opinion come what may.
But it's quite astonishing to me that people just can't (REALLY can't) understand that you either like something or you don't and that attempts to change your likes or dislikes are doomed to failure.
For God's sake, that is exactly what liking, or disliking, something is all about. It's your own preference.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 05:03 AM

I can't beleieve how this thread has over 200 posts.

Somebody decides to put a link to a singer to share with other people if they so choose.

Most of the posts are totally off beam and in some cases not acceptable on most forums.

Com eon moderators get a grip on things!!!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 10:19 AM

Bit late for all that, Villan. It's run out of steam.

Rather like the tired, same-old-same-old from Ruzzer.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 10:28 AM

Who's Ruzzer?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 10:29 AM

Oh doh ruzzer being Rusby!!!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Sarah, Barnsley
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:46 PM

Our Kate doesn't have a *real* barnsley accent - otherwise noone from out of Tarn would understand what she's singing.

*This* is a real Barnsley accent:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=56291344

(might be some swearing in there, can't tell)

Loove Sarah x

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:19 PM

You don't have to go Barnsley to get Barnsley Chops.

I went down to the shop
To get meself a Barnsley Chop
Plenty of gravy, glass o' rum
Come on luv, let's feel your bum.

Some lines from a poem I wrote when I had a gig in Barnsley. I don't remember the rest of the poem.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:10 AM

Careful Al or some feminist might call you a pervert too! ROFLOL

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:05 PM

I think I have got most of the points. Very unusual for me - Took me ages to read the thread and I do have a very low boredom threshold so I suppose there must be something interesting in there.

I must say that, following some recent discussions on the etiquette of making disparaging remarks about other peoples likes or dislikes, I am keen to stay possitive. I am no big fan of Kate Rusby for a few reasons but I am perfectly happy to accept that other people love the stuff she does. I happen to like some stuff that other describe as crap but what the heck. Without the ability to produce crap we would all be in a sorry state:-) I did like her version of 'Village Green Preservation Society' but it doesn't hold a candle to Ray Davis' original version. That brings me to the point I realy do not understand -

If we are no longer to use the term folk as it has become meaningless and if we can't call any music from England but traditional dance music 'English Music' (Ref "And it's even worse to try and con people into thinking MOR mainstream shit is English music too") then what can we call music performed by any other English musician? Take the afore mentioned Mr Davis for instance. He is English. His music is recognisably English and it seems, to me, far from 'MOR mainstream shit'. What phrase do we use for it? Seriously?

To call it simply "Music" would work but, unfortunately, people, including me, do need some sort of guidance as to what we may or may not like. There are surprises in all styles but, generaly speaking, I will not go out of my way for an Opera or Jazz concert. I need to know in advance what I am letting myself in for, sad as it may sound. Generaly I will enjoy most of what is on offer at a folk festival but will only find a few enjoyable moments at a rave.

So, seeing as we have discussed everything from dialects to the oppression of women on a music thread how about we now find out just what categories of music are acceptable. Apart from English dance and MOR crap of course.

BTW - Diane is indeed knowledgeable and often witty but you can always tell when she is winding someone up. Her keyboard is clicking...

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 04:40 PM

One of the things I (and plenty of others) dislike about the song under discussion is not quite that it signifies women's oppression but that it attempts to justify and rationalise ownership of one human being by another, regardless of gender. This is a bit sick and always wrong, no matter what accent or dialect it's warbled in. When the melodic structure is further ruined and, in the case of the Shrek soundtrack, the horrendously poor diction wanders way out of tune, it's just bad music.

No-one (certainly not me) said the only English music is 'traditional dance music'. Music played in England for dancing isn't exclusively 'English' nor 'traditional but is played in a recognisable English style. Opera by English composers is English music and so are the Kinks. But the kRusby covering Village Green Preservation Society as the soundtrack for a sitcom doesn't make it merit the description of English music in that sense. It's a commercial pop cover.

Jazz is clearly not English music since it originated from black musicians in New Orleans and Chicago. But English music can and does incorporate jazz chords and rhythmic structures, the most obvious current example (though by no means the sole example) being Bellowhead. Why this works with jazz without dumbing down the genre but is universally disastrous when the mainstream pop world has one of its periodic forays into what it imagines is 'f*lk' music is, I think, down to two factors:

(a) a far higher standard of musicianship and
(b) an avoidance of cultural vandalism.

Every now and then Tin Pan Alley (or the Brill building) decrees that a tinge of f*lk is going to be the new whatever and stuff like hurdy-gurdies and mildly exotic drums are 'kewl'. That's just one of the reasons why the term needs binning because it's become so meaningless and you get people thinking it comprises any wifty-wafty, new-agey, snigger-snoggery MOR shit.

There's not a trace of wit or winding up in this post. I'm just pissed off that it's necessary to click the keyboard and write it down.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: RTim
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:10 PM

Diane raises a very interesting point, one that maybe "should?" have it's own thread (there probably is one somewhere?)- ie. Whether certain songs are still appropriate, ie. - Ownership over some one?
How does this stack up with the question of singing about Incest or murder or wife beating or other such foul deeds?
Should we still sing them, ie. continue the Tradition, or should they be "amended" to make them more "modern" and approprate?

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:12 PM

Oh for chrissake, it's a love song!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:15 PM

OK.

Is MOR pop not English then? I thought it was a truly English phenomenon. Well, maybe US phenomenon perfected by the English:-) If it is then Kate R (and Katie Melua and Amy Winehouse and any number of new female snigers) is a perfect example of English music. Not the type that you and I like admitedly but English music all the same.

What about when new-agey stuff does come good? Say The Incredible String Band? Or the sniger-snoggery of Richard Thompson? Can we not claim that as folk either? Must say I can't think of a wifty-wafty example. But then again I have only come on the 'puter coz I'm getting scared of Resident Evil on Film 4!

In case I am killed by a zombie I admit that the last bit was just a cheap soundbite I could not resist:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:52 PM

Of course it doesn't signify the oppression of women - it' usually sung by women, or by a hermaproditic male. I suppose if one is a literalist, totally devoid of imagination, one might view the song as an expression of ownership of one person by another. Since I'm not so fussy or literalistic, I view it as an expression of a request for honoring a mutual pledge of fidelity made by two consenting teenagers who think they're adults. Now, I suppose this may be offensive to those who find monogamy offensive, but what the hell....

I keep getting complaints about a Certain Someone who is allegedly spoiling this thread. This thread started out pointing to a YouTube recording of a woman singing a 1950's pop song, and the thread originator thought that was nice. And actually, that's about all that could be said about the recording - that it was on YouTube and that somebody liked it. The thread should have ended there. Ho, hum.

Well, that Certain Someone came in and vehemently disagreed, saying that the song was oppressive and that it was vulgar for someone who calls herself a Folk Musician to sing such a song, and so on, and so on, and so on. So, the thread that should have ended with two posts, is now at 211 or so, mostly with post from people who say that the Certain Someone is vulgar and oppressive and unspeakably nasty.

I dunno. The thread was worth about one post. The rest of it has been mildly entertaining squabble, with some valid posts here and there, but I really don't think it's horrible. And if that Certain Someone hadn't posted to this thread, how many of the rest of you would have posted?

Say, isn't there a 1950's song about a Certain Someone that some would-be folksinger can resurrect? Maybe we should all sing this song to our very own Certain Someone.

You are my Someone
My Certain Someone
And you are mine, dear,
And I'm yours. too.
'Coz you're my Someone,
My Certain Someone
And I hope that I'm your Someone, too.

(To the tune of "You Are My Sunshine," another obscenely possessive song)

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 06:04 PM

Well, the Zombies didn't get me. I'm scared of the men in white coats now though. And that Mila whassername will come for me with a pump action shotgun while clothed only in two kleenex tissues...

I do tend to avoid cards with 'To My Wife'. She is not mine, she is her own person. But it is a weird quirk of mine and I think it is daft to get upset about it. Like Joe said if we took all lyrics literaly we would get upset by half the stuff we hear! Mind you, there is another thread going about Mungo Jerry and the line 'If her Daddy's rich, take her out for a meal; If her Daddy's poor just do what you feel' always had me squirming! Even in those non-PC days.

G'night all.

D.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 06:06 PM

Oh - and just before I go - does anyone else find Sting's 'Every step you take' as scary as I do? Boy, does he have a control problem!

D.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 06:21 PM

None of the snigers (Freudian slip of keyboard?) you mention are rooted in a tradition, though, are they? Melua, Winehouse and kRusby are not, by any stretch of the imagination, perfect examples of anything recognisably and intrinsically English.

Apart from Richard Thompson, obviously, who can be when he feels like it - Mock Tudor, deeply rooted in the tradition of the middle-class English suburbs, another side of Metroland.

And the ISB. Certainly not 'new-agey'. Clive and Robin started off as a duo very much in the tradition and indeed produced an album At The Pure Fountain only a couple of years ago which certainly was.

It's not in the slightest bit hard to determine whether a music is rooted or not. Just think of English football . . . calls itself 'English' but it's not very, is it?

Re your telly-watching: it gets worse. Go and watch Bergman on BBC2.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 06:28 PM

it was vulgar for someone who calls herself a Folk Musician to sing such a song

Just in case anyone thinks it was me who said that (did anybody?), it wasn't.
I would never call the kRusby a 'Folk Musician' in the first place.

Nor did I say anything like the song being about 'oppression of women'. I said it was extremely distasteful for any human being of whatever gender to claim ownership of another.

Yes, Every Step You Take is extremely scary. It's astonishing how many people mistake what that's about too.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 06:55 PM

"I do tend to avoid cards with 'To My Wife'."

I hate that, but I despise "My other half" even more. What, are you not whole on your own?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 07:15 PM

- One of the things I (and plenty of others) dislike about the song under discussion is not quite that it signifies women's oppression but that it attempts to justify and rationalise ownership of one human being by another, regardless of gender. This is a bit sick and always wrong, no matter what accent or dialect it's warbled in. When the melodic structure is further ruined and, in the case of the Shrek soundtrack, the horrendously poor diction wanders way out of tune, it's just bad music. -


Another song of 'oppression' *grin*

You Belong To Me

One more

Belong to me you do *wink*

Being a person in love might I just say how beautiful it is to feel that you belong to someone and that they belong to you. If you don't feel this way then it's not love.

- This is a bit sick and always wrong, no matter what accent or dialect it's warbled in. -

Nowt to do with sickness or oppression - simply all to do with love.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 07:20 PM

- What, are you not whole on your own? -

You can be whole on your own, but to be whole because of someone else, is a whole other world.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 07:54 PM

Thought I'd better have a look at the YouTube link to see what the fuss was about. It doesn't do much for me; not one of her best. Perhaps it was because I was expecting this.

Remarkable facial resemblance though.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 08:35 PM

Betty Boop sounded better, though.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 09:31 PM

Ay Up, you are right, songs denoting possession have got to go. Let's start with My Jo, and My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Chuck
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 09:44 PM

err... "My Ding-a-ling" !!!!?????

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 10:05 PM

"He's just My Bill." Sexist tripe!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 03:57 AM

'Oppression', 'ownership'?
What twaddle. What unmitigated balderdash.

As I understand it, the song was written in the early 1950s when a lot of US troops and civilians were serving overseas or waking up to the joys of travelling. Some of these guys found the company of local girls irresistible - the popularity of songs like 'Filipino Baby', 'Geisha Girl' and 'Fraulein' (and many others) in the country genre testifies to this. It would be understandable if the 'girl at home' might have the odd concern. As indeed might the 'boy away from home' have about getting a 'Dear John' letter.
Whether any of these thoughts were in the songwriter's mind I have no idea but it certainly would explain why the song was requested repeatedly on radio.

I shudder to think what people make of 'My Boy Lollipop' or 'Wear My Ring Around Your Neck'.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 04:15 AM

No - none of the snigers (no slip - I enjoy Snigers nights at the club but better still is a Genghis Nirst) are rooted in tradition but they ARE English. My point is that MOR pop, as provided by these ladies, is as English now as anything rooted in tradition. Just as, sadly, we are stuck with the nonsense that goes with football nowadays. Incidentaly, I was talking to a collegue who is heavily 'into' Jazz and, apparantly, this same discussion is going on about Melua amongst afficionados of that genre!

What's wrong with my TV habits anyway? I watched 'Pitch Black' the night before and I am disappointed that 'Doom' is not on tonight! Well, not realy, I am going out anyway. Nice to not be on call:-) You can't beat big guns and gore. On that point I just remembered one of my favourite definitions of English music - An Army can march to it... (Joking - Honest!)

Last, for now, how else can 'every step' be interpreted? Other than a worrying song by a stalker? Incidentaly, did you ever hear the Travis version of Britney Spears (now there IS MOR pop!) 'Hit me baby one more time'? They really did show it up for the sick little ditty it was.

D.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 04:25 AM

I spent several days away from this thread and said I wouldn't read it. But I just did.

Somebody's been through it zapping the lies and ever-so-bizarre derogatory crap from the testosterone-fuelled brigade in full cry but left in all my ripostes so it looks like I'm yelling at Peter Hitchens on the telly with the sound off.

Now that the Moon-In-June battalion has entered stage left clutching faded blooms and nauseously-versed cards from the petrol station, I see once more a need which will doubtless be bayed at by said TFB to decry the folly of succumbing to being half a person and a mere item of paraphernalia at the behest of a crooner whose grasp of geographical detail is so scant as to claim that the pyramids are situated along the Nile. They're not. Don't believe a word of it.

I haven't a clue why TFB squadron leader Mr Rogers mentions 'c**ntry'. The topic is an English singer doing an outdated (and poor) 50s American pop song rather disinterestedly in a Yorkshire accent, and whether or not this might have any merit.

I say it doesn't: the song is crap musically and ideologically, the performance is poor on diction and musicianship (though not quite as bad as the Shrek one) and bears no relationship to roots, tradition or a sense of place. Someone has said 'it's just a girl (a girl?) singing a song. So what place can it possibly have in a forum supposedly devoted to musics which are indigenous to or rooted in the place where you are and which participants are invited to compare and contrast?

If Mr Rogers (and others) wants instead to discuss the sort of trash listed, there might be a scribbling board somewhere else where he can and he might like to seek it out.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,MikeRogers
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 04:57 AM

First time I've been called 'testosterone-fuelled' or a Squadron Leader. Frankly, at my time of life I would have hoped to have made Group Captain at least.

The song is question was originally a COUNTRY hit - geddit? Do wake up Mrs Easby. I've already mentioned my dislike of the Rusby interpretation. And rest assured, you won't be my 'target for tonight' (or any other night)...........

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 05:23 AM

I think you're getting a little paranoid, Diane. There were four posts deleted from this thread, all four from a person named Fadge Boy, whose attacks were a little too personal. The last deleted post was posted August 8. Sorry, but nobody's "been through it zapping the lies and ever-so-bizarre derogatory crap from the testosterone-fuelled brigade."
If your posts don't make sense when you look at them now, maybe it's because they don't make sense....
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 05:27 AM

lol

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 05:36 AM

Oh well.
Joe's zapping explanation answers Mike Rogers' query about why he was being described as 'testosterone-fuelled'
He wasn't. That phrase (not invented by me but apt) refers to a specific pack of baying hounds.
They know who they are.
Odd though how some people are incapable of contextualising and assume everything is all about them.

My posts make sense whether they are:

(a) imparting information or
(b) refuting bollocks.

When the latter, it becomes a little difficult for readers to know what I was replying to. Like the Fadge person who had extensive delusions of having seen me some place where I was not.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 05:37 AM

Mike's posting was really interesting. It really gives the song a fascinating historical perspective. And in a strange way it gives a perspective on our parents' relationships. And the way they saw them.

It was well worth two hundred posts of relative tripe to come up with a jewel like that. Most of the nonsense was because we were imposing our views on a song from a bygone age.

You know what Alan Bennet says about John Betjeman on archictecture -he could interpret that remotest of periods - the recent past. Well you did something similar Mike - well done!

It makes you realise the layers of misunderstanding which must accumulate over a three hundred year old folk song. And in truth why that stuff feels 'wrong' to an awful lot of people.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 05:57 AM

Kate Rusby is a studio guest on Mike Harding's show tonight. Radio 2 at 7pm.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 06:16 AM

HGope she sings "You Belong to Me.....which was written by a WOMAN..Chilton Price......oppressed perhaps but not for aforementioned reasons. What a hornets nest of hooha........

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 06:19 AM

Pee Wee King wrote it.

See here.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 06:21 AM

oops you're right.....

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 08:08 AM

- My posts make sense whether they are:

(a) imparting information or
(b) refuting bollocks. -


Should the word refuting actually read - writing?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 08:32 AM

LMAO GUEST Ay Up. Made my day :-)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 09:05 AM

I've looked at the the oddly monickered Guest, Ay Up's fortunately few postings.
They comprise two paeons of praise for the Shrek soundtrack, a frankly baffling assertion that a person isn't whole unless arbitrarily spliced with another (is this the Royal We(e) syndrome?) and a wholly incomprehensible and pointless airline ad.

So, well up in the spouting bollocks stakes, but not a scrap of evidence of the slightest vestige of musical knowledge, nor of operating as an actual human being, nor indeed, even, of any intention to treat another as such.

Thing is, I am adept at writing bollocks if I feel like it. It's the over-abundance of examples on here to utilise as models. However, as Dave the ex-Gnome pointed out, those with just half an eye on what's going on (yes, I know that's not many) know when I'm doing it, and why.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 10:56 AM

Brakn....read your own reference and you will find that "Price wrote the song".......
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 10:57 AM

OOps..you realised..sorry!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:25 AM

- Thing is, I am adept at writing bollocks if I feel like it. -

Now, now I think you underestimate yourself here, for it seems to me that you are also able to do it even when you're not feeling like it.

Credit where credit is due.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:26 AM

Pardon me for forgetting my namein the Guest post above this.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:30 AM

"There was an ol' woman from Frollocks
Who loved to write nothing but B****cks"

.........

Over to you Folks, I'd not want to spoil your fun here.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:44 AM

I don't think there is such a place as 'Frollocks'.

I'm sure you can come up with a better premise for us to build on...

:D

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:59 AM

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 06:19 AM

Pee Wee King wrote it.

and you give the Wikipedia entry on the song as your reference, Perhaps, Brakn, you should read the whole damn thing instead of selectively editing out the REAL composer of You Belong To Me, CHILTON PRICE

from the Wikipedia entry, as follows:

"It is credited to three writers: Pee Wee King, Redd Stewart, and Chilton Price. Actually PRICE WROTE THE SONG, and GAVE RIGHTS TO THE OTHER TWO IN EXCHANGE FOR PUBLICITY. She did this because of the success of an earlier hit which she had written, "Slow Poke," which had done so well with a similar arrangement that she felt she could do better by ceding partial credit for authorship to King and Stewart, rather than trying to publicize the song herself [1].

The original version of the song was recorded by Sue Thompson on Mercury's country label, soon covered by Patti Page, whose version was issued by Mercury as catalog number 5899, with the flip side "I Went to Your Wedding" (a bigger Patti Page hit, reaching #1). It entered the Billboard chart on August 22, 1952, and lasted 12 weeks on the chart, peaking at #4."

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 12:04 PM

Being attacked by the likes of Ay Up is rather like being mauled by a six week old kitten, you admire its tenacity and are really amused by its presumption :-D

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:01 PM

Well done Crazy Man.

Perhaps if you had read the thread below my link..........

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:05 PM

Perhaps if you had read the damn post below my link..........

Lots of mistakes today.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:06 PM

And my posts as I had already made the same mistake as you have
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:13 PM

Ah, Patti Page- now there was a woman who could sing!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:25 PM

You know, that Jayne Mansfield had some big breasts.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:30 PM

Cluin

You know, that Jayne Mansfield had some big breasts.

SOME?!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:30 PM

some....some..I know she had at least two but how many did she have?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: gnu
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:32 PM

Yes, I know I said goodbye about 150 posts ago, but, I just had to check up and see what on earth another 150 posts could be about.

Say, now, Cluin, there's a post that can't be argued with. To quote Chris Rock, "Everybody like a big tittie woman!" However, some princess might try. After all, they can't stand peas.

Hmmm... what IS folk, eh?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:33 PM

You know, that Jayne Mansfield had some big breasts.

what key do you play it in? :-D

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:36 PM

Double D

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:26 AM

- Double D -

Now that's funny! *big grin*

I know I'll probably get lynched for daring to laugh at what The Furher would deem a highly insensitive, politically incorrect, sexist,
anti-feminist, degrading, oppressive joke, but ---- as I said further up this thread, credit where credit's due, because that's funny!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:28 AM

I agree...a real 'cup'winner

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 04:38 AM

Yawn.

This thread appears to have been taken over by prepubescent schoolboys.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 04:45 AM

I don't think you guys are doing the cause of male equality any good you know!

D.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:00 AM

Ay Up isn't a guy.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:22 AM

Neither am I.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:26 AM

I'm no schoolboy, but I'm doin' allright
(Jagger and Richard)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:28 AM

No, Ay Up isn't.
Ay Up's in a fantasy hole:

What, are you not whole on your own?

You can be whole on your own, but to be whole because of someone else, is a whole other world.

Bound For (or En Route For) not South Australia but Canada, maybe . . .

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:37 AM

"Being a person in love might I just say how beautiful it is to feel that you belong to someone and that they belong to you. If you don't feel this way then it's not love."

To "belong" to someone else, and for them to "belong" to you, wouldn't it help to have met them first?

Only askin'.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:27 AM

Ay Up! *wink*

did someone mention Bound For South Australia? *wink*

Show of Hands and Fishermen's Friends sing South Australia - Bloody marvellous!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:37 AM

Guys is fast becoming a generic term for people of all genders. Example of US English creeping in over here. And yes, I am easily led:-P

From the compact OED -

guy1

• noun 1 informal a man. 2 (guys) N. Amer. informal people of either sex. 3 Brit. a figure representing the Catholic conspirator Guy Fawkes, burnt on a bonfire on 5 November to commemorate a plot to blow up Parliament in 1605.

guy2

• noun a rope or line fixed to the ground to secure a tent.

• verb secure with a guy or guys.

— ORIGIN probably Low German.

Covers a multitude of sins:-)

So, Ted, what are you denying being? A catholic conspirator, a tent rope or a person of either sex? :-D

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:41 AM

Ahhhhh - Got it at last, Diane. The Show of Hands link is a dead giveaway:-) Isn't there some mudcat rules about Guests posting with a consistant moniker?

D.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:43 AM

Well, Dave, banned members shouldn't be posting under any name at all.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:49 AM

Excuse my ignorance,who has been banned.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:50 AM

That's a link to er...'South Australia' they just happen to be singing it...bloody brilliantly too I might add! Fisherman's Friends are just the BEST sound!

Has anyone got their CD 'Suck 'em and Sea' ? Orgasmic music!! *huge grin*

- To "belong" to someone else, and for them to "belong" to you, wouldn't it help to have met them first?

Only askin'. -

I think that's very sad. There speaks a person who I'd say has no understanding of souls. Of course you don't need to meet someone first. You simply know. And you know, because, you belong. You belong to them and they belong to you.

Hey we're back to the title of the thread! *whoopee smile*

"As I went out one morning fair, heave away haul away, was there I met Miss Nancy Blair.."

Ohhhh! That song, sung by those men is JUST OHHHHH! *orgasmic smile*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:50 AM

Lizzie Cornish - currently known as Ay Up

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:53 AM

I do beg your pardons...I of course meant *organic* above.

Far be it from me to ever suggest that folk music could EVER put one into a state of bliss, for I have learnt over many a year that traditional music is only there to be pored over, argued over, discussed in hallowed tones in Cecil Sharp House.

Traditional music is Organic..NOT Orgasmic..

No no no no no no no..NOT orgasmic...no no no no



Yes! *heehee*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 08:25 AM

OMG...

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:06 AM

"I think that's very sad. There speaks a person who I'd say has no understanding of souls. Of course you don't need to meet someone first. You simply know."

There speaks a person with the emotional maturity of a 12 year old. To say you "belong" to someone, that you're "in love" with someone who lives thousands of miles away and that you've never met, is delusional at best.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:28 AM

'from Galway to Graceland ..................'

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:39 AM

- There speaks a person with the emotional maturity of a 12 year old. To say you "belong" to someone, that you're "in love" with someone who lives thousands of miles away and that you've never met, is delusional at best. -

You said that, not me.

I merely stated that you don't have to have 'met' someone first, to realise that you belong with them. It has nothing to do with being 12 years old, but everything to do with Old Souls.

(not as in Poor Ol' Soul though) *grin*


Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go and watch Jim Moray's video again and then watch the Shrek video once more, with maybe a little Spiers & Boden to top it all off.

Oh...and could I just say what a charming lad Jon Boden appears to be. I saw him a few times at Sidmouth chatting away to people and he was being so courteous and polite. Bit like that other Young Lad of Folk, Jim Causley, another charming person.

Let's hear it for The Youngbloods! *grin*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:40 AM

Woopsie, forgot me name (above) again. Apologies!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:49 AM

Somebody made Richard Thompson's From Galway To Graceland into a R4 play.
In fact I'm surprised they didn't repeat it today.

Could be done with From Sidmouth To Saskatchewan I suppose.
Mad old bat sets sail for Canada on the Lyme Bay pleasure steamer. . .
Except that it would be the play with no point nor ending.
Waiting for Samot you might say.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 10:04 AM

- Mad old bat sets sail for Canada on the Lyme Bay pleasure steamer. . . -

We had a very enjoyable cruise around The Napoli the other day, via Saskatchewan...both parts of it, The Napoli that is, not Saskatchewan.

The cruise was enjoyable but The Napoli must win a prize for being the most boring and unromantic wreck in the History of Wrecks! Did you know though that the barge that held the crane that removed the crates (there was an old woman who swallowed a fly..) is the largest and most expensive barge in the world? It cost £1,000.000.000 a day to have it there.

Unless of course, you know otherwise....

Full marks to the kids at Sidmouth for their Napoli play by the way, very good!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,AY Up
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 10:06 AM

I think I may have one too many 0's there. *scratches head slowly grin*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 10:12 AM

Managed to watch Jim Moray's video again and then watch the Shrek video once more, with maybe a little Spiers & Bodenbetween 20 to and 5 past 3 and yet has taken many months to get to Canada.

Are you realy Doctor Who?

:D

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Ay Up
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 10:24 AM

- Are you realy Doctor Who? -


Well, I have to admit that I do, at the moment, live in a tardis *grin*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:52 PM

"Yawn.

This thread appears to have been taken over by prepubescent schoolboys."

I prefer to call it music hall humour, but to each their own.....*LOL*

I'm Burlington Bertie I am ;-)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:20 PM

Though I must admit that the thread has taken on a somewhat Women's Institutionish look.....*knit one, purl one...dammit dropped a row...now what was you saying dearie...?* *LOL*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 04:05 PM

knit one---purl one---knit one---purl one....the thread has also had me in stitches! Even the needling was funny.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 04:34 PM

Well, it's sure interesting. I loved this thread. All sorts of dramatis personae. Some information. I thought it was fascinating the same person had written Slowpoke and You Belong to Me.   Totally different feel to the songs--and I love both of them. I've been trying for years to get a tick-tock instrument for Slowpoke. And Chilton Price's background was classical. Wikipedia may be unreliable on some topics but on Chilton Price it sounds right.


Sure glad I didn't find look at this thread at work--would have been a terrible distraction--far too entertaining.

As far as the Kate Rusby rendition, I'd agree she drastically changed the melody--basically she watered it down substantially. Jan said she should have written her own words and it would have been fine--and Jan LOVES Kate Rusby. I like her too, a lot--saw her at Sidmouth, and she was delightful--and had great stage presence and a great band. We particularly like her song about one of her parents killing her suitor with a broom. As she said "You know how it can happen, you're in the kitchen...."


But it seems just possible that Diane Easby--if she's not just a wind-up merchant--may have overreacted.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby, 'You belong to me'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 04:53 PM

"didn't look at this thread". I gotta proofread.

I think Kate said the Cobbler's Daughter song was originally French--" but now it's from Yorkshire--like me."

And "You Belong To Me" was a wonderful experience at the Getaway in the dining hall just standing around singing- a whole bunch of us---led by the wonderful young Appalachian ballad singer whose name escapes me--though we of course did it a la the Duprees.