Mystery instrument

Subject: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 09:40 AM

Can someone identify the following instrument?



Teardrop body, flat back and top ( like a mandolin)

Larger than a mandolin

14 strings, in pairs. Slotted head, strip of 7 tuners per side

Fretted, obviously commercially made.


Thanks!

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From:
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 09:50 AM

Probably some form of bouzouki. I've seen 10 string versions of them, even in a shape like a guitar. Seems to come in various string pairs.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 09:54 AM

Sounds like a cittern to me.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 10:17 AM

What's the prize for the correst answer? Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 10:19 AM

You might get to see it at the Getaway- and play it, if I can find the right strings!

I saw it in a thrift shop, and might go back to get it, if it is worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: Greg B
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 10:38 AM

With that many strings it can only be one thing:

It's a cacophone.

The root of the name is either from the Sumerian 'caco,' which
translates roughly to 'diminishing returns' from the Limbic 'cackup'
meaning 'warped neck' or possibly from the more modern 'ca-ca'
meaning excrement.

The most accepted by scholars is the Sumerian version, from the
observation that 8-string mandolin players spend 50 percent of their
time tuning and the other 50 percent playing out of tune, that
12-string guitar players spend 75 percent of their time tuning,
and the other 25 percent playing out of tune, is the most likely.

The player of the cacophone, on the other hand, spends 99% of his
time tuning and only 1% playing out of tune.

This instrument lent its name to the term used for a random
collection of dissonant and arhythmic sound, known as 'cacophony.'

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 10:51 AM

Marvellelous!

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:05 AM

So, Grg B., you can teach me how to play this thing? Or maybe just how to tune it?

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:11 AM

The slotted head makes me think it could be a Spanish Bandurria, is the neck really short?

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: Peace
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:12 AM

If it has a sound hole, what ya got is a handy-dandy cheese slicer.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:17 AM

Neck is longer than a mandolin: about the same as a tenor banjo in length.

I have a 12 string guitar for a cheese slicer...

This thing had the strings too close together to be a good cheese slicer. I may get it just to have the tailpiece!

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:44 AM

These long-necked mandolins have become quite cmmon among Celtic/Irish players and, although some folks have tried to come up with a naming system, not everyone agrees. I don't like the terms Cittern or Bouzouki unless you're referring to the actual instruments. From what I've heard, the term "cittern" for a long-necked mandolin came from Stephan Sobell and he got it from an ancient instrument with paired courses. Since there is already an instrument that goes by the name cittern, I'd rather not use that one. The same goes for "bouzouki", which is a bowl backed Greek instrument with three or four courses of strings and often has a magnetic pick-up.
Other names for these instruments are: octave mandolin, long-necked mandolin, Octophone, Blarge, Monster mandolin. I've even seen octave mandolins called octave mandolas, though an octave mandola should be tuned CGDA bass to treble. Some people put the word "Irish" in front of the name to avoid confusion e.g. Irish Cittern or Irish Bouzouki.
The bottom line is that these instruments are quite recent on the music scene and have not yet received standard names , configuration nor tunings.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: JennyO
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:49 AM

It could be a Philippine bandurria. Apparently some of them have 14 strings, but with this one, the strings don't seem to be arranged in pairs.

Or it could be a Laud, also from the Philippines. It has a longer neck, and appears to have 14 strings, so may fit your description.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: Greg B
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:51 AM

I think they should call them 'Irvines'

Don't worry--- in 20 years, the Irish will have us believe
that Padraig himself brought them to charm the snakes.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 12:08 PM

The fact is that the instrument known as the Irish Bouzouki is a borrowed instrument that has been changed enough to be considered a new instrument. It's scale length has changed, in many cases it doesn't have a bowl back, and the tunings that seem to be most popular are the GDAD or ADAD, with some C tunings still in the running.

No one I know among the Irish players has made any claim to the origins of the instrument, even the current crop of tutorials (which aren't very good IMO) freely acknowledge the instrument was a borrowed instrument. But it is fair to say that Lunny, Irvine and company have created a morphed instrument that has gained great acceptance among serious players, such as Brian MacNeil and others.

Mick

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 12:19 PM

It sounds like a buggritt, a rarely-seen cousin of the cittern, from south-western Europe (Asturias, basque areas etc). If it is that, it is notoriously difficult to tune because due to the extreme proximity of the doubled strings they impact on another. Which is how it got its name: "bugger it!!" - see?

It should be played not with a plectrum but with a small "xestra", like a mini-rake with 5 prongs. If you cannot find one, an ordinary garden rake will do.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: JennyO
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 01:47 PM

Is that the Greater Buggritt or the Lesser Buggritt, George?

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: Little Robyn
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:02 PM

Whatever it is, if it's in a thrift shop it's gonna cost a lot less than it's worth.
Go get it.
Then tune it any way you want - use as many strings as you can handle and call it what you like.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 04:50 PM

A blarge?

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 02:43 PM

I found one of these half submerged in an outhouse in the woods of the Upper Peninsula (U.P.) of Michigan. The case was not in the outhouse. But it was laying open about 30 feet away in a huge patch of poison ivy.

There was a pamphlet about the instrument inside that case, and it seems this paper had been used to wipe the owner's arse---to say it in Brit language. As a result, mostly it could not be read. There was one sentence I could make out, and I quote: "This Cacaphone was originally invented as an I.U.D. for Catherine The GREAT! It didn't work." I think it goes on to say they first wanted to call it a Jew's Harp---but were dissuaded from that... Apparently, it smelled too bad to be called a nose flute.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 02:45 PM

...and it looked nothing like a musical saw!

Art

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,MJ
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 05:24 PM

14 strings - I'd go with a bandurria

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 06:06 PM

Here's some advice for ya' BB but it's just my opinion mind you.

First, drop to your knees and thank the gods or spirits or mohunkers that you pray to for giving the world the guitar. THEN, take the "Whatevertahellthesillythingis" out on the Mackinac Bridge and fling it under the wheels of the first passing Peterbilt. If it still appears playable, toss it over the railing with name and address on it, but use someone else's name and address.

HEY MICK......Lookit here Bro......We used to talk about these things all the time regarding tunings and I always wondered but never got around to asking-----Why the hell does every Irish tuning have at least TWO D's in it, if not three or more? Why not tune all the strings to D and save time?

BTW, I was talking with El Swanno the other day and we both noted that your billable hours with LFPS are on the lower end of the totem pole. On the other hand, Fielding is operating with an average so high the he virtually supports the entire firm. I'm not surprised really as it is unbelievable how much you can accomplish when you're unencumbered by time, space, and distance. Now I'm not suggesting we try to emulate him of course, but get your act together if you expect to share much in the year-end dividends.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:06 PM

OK, it is now mine. It has the following on the head:

CMORALES
NLUMANOG

Some of the strings ( lighter gauge ones ) are in sets of THREE.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: ClaireBear
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 04:40 PM

Do a search on "N Lumanog." Lumanog is apparently a major guitar maker in the Philippines -- at least, so said the first site I went to.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:59 PM

Could this be an Oud? In my old hometown, Fresno, CA, there is a large and active Armenian community. THE recognized Oud virtuoso is a fellow named Richard Hagopian, I believe. He performs and teaches in the LA area, but also in the Fresno region.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 10:32 PM

OK, it looks like the one on the right:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/recording-studio-philippines/154782510/

A Banduria it is!

Now how do I tune the thing???

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 10:37 PM

from Steve Howe:
"I call it a Portuguese guitar, and the tuning I use is two D strings tuned to E, two A strings tuned to B, two D strings tuned to E again, something like two .16s for a high B, and then E which will be two .12s, then the top string is in A flat, which has to be an .008 gauge tuned to A flat. I do use the same tunings on both songs, both songs are based around D or E."

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 10:42 PM

http://www.museumofworldmusic.com/Ban.html#

LOTS of blanks there...


But the picture of a (Ukrainian) bandura has 60 strings, so that is not it.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:22 PM

Do you live in a city with a Phillipine cultural organization? Perhaps they could help.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: JennyO
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 07:04 AM

A bandurria and a bandura are not the same thing. I linked to pictures of a bandurria further back in the thread - here. That was what I guessed your instrument was back on the 9th August, Bruce.

Meanwhile, at my folk club this Sunday, I just happen to have performing a group called HuldreFolk , one of whom, Victor Mishalow, is said to be

an internationally acclaimed exponent of the ancient sixty-five stringed Bandura  the voice and soul of Ukraine.

However, this is obviously a totally different instrument.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: sapper82
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 12:12 PM

I regret not being bold enough to make a bid at local auction a few years back. A couple of what I now know to be plucked psaltries, minus strings, went as police lost property for a fiver the pair!

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 12:28 PM

JennyO

From every indication, you are correct. It is either a badurria or a laud.

Anyone know what notes to tune it to?

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 12:48 PM

...bandurria...


a mandolin for polydactyl people.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: ClaireBear
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:12 PM

Well, there's quite a bit of information -- in amusingly inconsistent English, but the information looks good -- here.

Tuning, desirable characteristics, and maintenance are all there, plus terminology, lists of music, notable players...

Looks like fun!

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 02:11 PM

Thanks! Looking now...

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 02:21 PM

"Bandurria:
This is the instrument with high loudest register. As the rest of the instruments of the family, it is pear-shaped, with different variants. The most extended shape is the so-called 'Calvete', with an elliptic mouth (instead of the old-fashion round mouth). The name 'Calvete' comes from its creator, together with the luthier José Ramírez.
Tuning:
1st: A (la), 2nd: E (mi), 3th: B (si), 4th:F# (#fa), 5th:C# (#do), 6th: G (sol). "

OK, a starting point. I will have to get it out, and see if it is obvious which ones are what- As I said, there are groups, so the 14 strings seem to be in 6 "sets".

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 07:44 PM

I Laud your efforts....

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: JennyO
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:21 PM

I thought this might be a useful page, Bruce - Bandurria tunings

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: JennyO
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:26 PM

The tuning on this page looks clear and helpful too.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,Murphy
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 05:23 AM

Since this is basically a "six" sringed instrument is it possible to tune it to normal guitar tuning (possibly at a lower pitch)? This would make it "playable" by all and sundry.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,Murphy
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 05:38 AM

Search "tuna gay" on Youtube and you'll find Osama himself playing the bandurria

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: Grab
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 05:53 AM

CMORALES
NLUMANOG

Sounds like something from HP Lovecraft. Do the strings ring strangely if you say the name "Yog-Sothoth"...?

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,Charles Dexter Ward
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 10:32 AM

...C'morales Cthulhu F'taghn, aii, aii, Shub Capo N'lumanog Goat with a thousand young! B'andurria!!! ...tis an abomination from the plains of mysterious Leng!

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: ClaireBear
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 12:41 PM

The Elder Gods are listening. And they grow angry.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 01:13 PM

Thanks, JennyO!

The names on the headstock are (probably) C Morales and N Lumanog, but they are in all caps with no spaces ( in two lines).

Thanks to all for the identification and comments. See it at the Getaway!

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 01:14 PM

On second thought, perhaps some witty doctor thought to put strings on a proctoscope in order to produce a more soothing and melodic alternative to the traditionally dreaded and uncomfortable procedure.

Subject: RE: Mystery instrument
From: GUEST,Slacker Guy
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 08:44 PM

Bandurria, from the Philippines. Mine is the middle instrument in this pic...

http://www.friendster.com/photos/3384916/11398471/78795

I have it tuned E B G D A E, an octave above standard guitar tuning.
One of these days I'll try playing in proper bandurria tuning.

From what I read, the bandurria & laud (& the rondalla, the group that has both instruments) originated in Spain. Spain's are 12 string though, & the bodies seem to be a bit wider (the hard case I have was made for a Spanish bandurria, I had to line the inside of the case with foam so the instrument would stop rattling around inside the case when I carried it.