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Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page

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GUEST,Tunesmith 15 Aug 07 - 11:34 AM
Phil Cooper 15 Aug 07 - 11:57 AM
GUEST, Sminky 15 Aug 07 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 15 Aug 07 - 03:57 PM
van lingle 15 Aug 07 - 07:48 PM
GUEST, Sminky 16 Aug 07 - 05:56 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 Aug 07 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 16 Aug 07 - 06:32 AM
redsnapper 16 Aug 07 - 06:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Aug 07 - 06:45 AM
GUEST, Sminky 16 Aug 07 - 07:41 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 Aug 07 - 08:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Aug 07 - 09:08 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 Aug 07 - 09:19 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Aug 07 - 09:29 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 Aug 07 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,Viking1au 13 May 12 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,David E. 13 May 12 - 12:10 PM
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Subject: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:34 AM

Jimmy Page ripped off Bert's version of Black Waterside, and renamed it Black Moutainside. Now, it seems as if Bert didn't pursue the matter because he claimed he was simply playing the song as he received from Anne Briggs. What did Bert mean by that? Did Anne have a guitar arrangement of the song very similar to what Bert recorded? Or, is Bert saying that he took Anne's vocal version and placed it on the guitar? Either way, Jimmy should have done the decent -and legal thing - and paid Bert - or Anne - a considerable amount of money.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:57 AM

I thought I remembered reading in the four LP set The Electric Muse, that there was a court case about that, with Karl Dallas as an expert witness. It's in the lengthy commentary that came with the albums. I don't know more than that, however.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:03 PM

In the sleeve notes to Troubadours of British Folk Vol. 1, Anne Briggs commented:

"Bert Lloyd gave me this song. The version I sing was originally recorded by Irish traveller Mary Doran for the BBC Archives."

Bert Jansch learnt the song from Anne and recorded it on his album Jack Orion in 1966. Jimmy Page recorded his version, known as "Black Mountain Side" on Led Zeppelin in 1969. Anne Briggs didn't record her version until 1971.

Whereas Jansch's sleeve notes give it as "Traditional, arranged Jansch", Jimmy Page credited the song "Black Mountain Side" to himself.

In a 1977 interview in Guitar Player, Page admitted, "I wasn't totally original on that. It had been done in the folk clubs a lot; Annie Briggs was the first one that I heard do that riff. I was playing it as well, and then there was Bert Jansch's version."

There was no court case. Bert simply didn't have the resources (or inclination) to take on the big boys.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 03:57 PM

Did Anne Briggs play it with guitar accompaniment a la Bert? I very much doubt it! Anyway, if Jimmy didn't give Bert any money, it reflects very badly on him.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: van lingle
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 07:48 PM

Anne Briggs did accompany herself on guitar on her recording of Black Waterside that I'm familiar with, Tunesmith but it was not was not nearly as complex as the one Jansch did on his recording and did not contain the riff that Page apparently lifted, at least according to my ears.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 05:56 AM

Al Stewart remembers that, in about 1965, he "showed him [Jimmy Page] what I thought was Bert Jansch's version of Blackwater Side". Al mistakenly thought that Bert had used DADGAD tuning (in fact it's drop D), so Page's use of DADGAD was 'accidental' - though the notes are the same of course.

Bert subsequently taught DADGAD tuning to Anne Briggs, who used it on the more sparse accompaniment to her own version.

John Mummery QC, who had been briefed by Nat Joseph, head of Bert's publishing company, concluded that:

"It had been reasonably established that there was every chance that Jimmy Page had heard Bert play the piece at a club, or a concert or on a personal basis, or that he had heard Bert's recording. However, what could not be proved was that Bert's recording in itself constituted Bert's own copyright, because the basic melody, of course, was traditional."

Everyone was also afraid that Peter Kennedy, renowned for being particularly litigious, would jump in and sue or claim copyright as he had originally collected the song.

PS: in 1987 bluesman Willie Dixon settled out of court with Led Zeppelin his own claim to the copyright of "Whole Lotta Love".


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:23 AM

And does it really matter?


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:32 AM

Of course it matters!!! Page stole an arrangement from Bert. And I bet Bert has never been that well off. God knows what royalties are rightfully/morally owed to Bert.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: redsnapper
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:42 AM

Not the only time it seems (see Yardbirds/Jeff Beck disputes available online)

RS


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:45 AM

to be fair most songwriters could spend all daay and every day in the courts if they could afford to, and if their inclination was that way.

Of course Bert can't afford the number of lawyers that Jimmy Page's publishers can. And Jimmy Page can't just give him the money - the property isn't totally his - it belongs in part to the publisher.

But in truth, a fair amount of loot must have passed through Bert's mits, because he's always been such a phenomenal performer and musician. I can think of several songwriters who weren't virtuosi, whose predicament because of this business of songwriters being quite unprotected by the law has been a damn sight worse than Bert's.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:41 AM

Unfortunately, Bert's musical virtuosity wasn't matched by his business acumen. Remember, Nat Joseph sold the recording of Bert's immense first album for a flat £100 - with no royalties subsequently payable. It's still on the shelves today.

Bert seemed to have a knack for attracting people only too ready to take advantage of him, both musically and financially. The wonder is that he managed to come through it all relatively unscathed.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 08:14 AM

"Of course it matters!!! Page stole an arrangement from Bert. And I bet Bert has never been that well off. God knows what royalties are rightfully/morally owed to Bert."

But of course it would have been fine the other way round!!! Who saw Jimmy Page in Neil Christian & the Crusaders - a very good band if I remember, he usually borrowed Lord Sutch's Savages but Jimmy Page was never in the Savages - was Bert whoever I wonder?


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:08 AM

lost me there a bit, bonzo.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:19 AM

You're too young perhaps?


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:29 AM

I remember Neil Christian and the Crusaders on RSG.

I used to have this LP (circa 1975) called Hard Up Heroes - all about the group scene of the 1960's. people were already getting misty eyed about the era, even then.

There was this amazing Jimmy Page guitar solo on Dave Berry's version of the Arthur Crudup number My Baby Left Me. bet he was a child star in those days. The Shirley Temple of the session men.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 10:53 AM

Yes, I saw Jimmy Page in the Crusaders about 1963 in the Assembly Hall in High Barnet, north of London.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: GUEST,Viking1au
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:20 AM

Once read somewhere that Bert did not proceed with action because the court costs could potentially have cost way too much. He was not exactly earning a king's ransom at that time.


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Subject: RE: Bert Jansch and Jimmy Page
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:10 PM

Like Bert said in the Acoustic Routes film: (and I am paraphrasing) "Some people add a lot to the music and make a lot of money, others just add a lot to the music."


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