Origins: Isle of St Helena

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: JeffB
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 06:47 AM

Your and Lighter's posts above convinced me that the Prince of Gehenna was indeed intended to be Metternich, and Gehenna is what I would sing if I could (someone else in my regular singaround does the song, so it's off limits for the foreseeable). 'Vienna' and 'Gehenna' are close rhymes and a contemporary would of course have twigged the connection immediately. Obviously the writer was an ardent Bonapartist. However, bringing Bonaparte's young son into the same line is still a puzzle for me.

Gehenna was, and is, a real place - a small valley in east Jerusalem which is easily found on Google Earth. It seems that in biblical times there was a community of Phoenicians in the area who practiced their reprehensible custom of child sacrifice by fire here. It is mentioned in several places in the bible. The aerial view seems to show an industrial estate - a blandly prosaic fate for a place of revolting horror.

I believe the valley is called Hinnom nowadays. Nearby is a road called Gihon.

Ain't the Interweb wonderful.

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 07:40 AM

What makes the word choice so deft is that the "Prince of Gehenna" could thus apply to both figures at the same time.

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 02:15 PM

Interesting information about Hinnom and Gihon, JeffB.

With regard to the words about "Prince of Gehenna" and the likelihood of this later addition being intended to have exactly this "resonance", I do think it's important to recognise Ambiguity in Watt's own verses, especially when being aware of the political situation in Britain generally, and in Scotland particularly, at this time. The so-called "Radical War" isn't as familiar as, say, the contemporaneous Peterloo Massacre, but the repressive and coercive nature of the British State is not in doubt.

Put bluntly; it would be a very dangerous thing at this time, the time from which the original verses definitely come, to compose, to sing, let alone to publish a song which was openly pro-Bonapartist. Consider carefully these verses; get away from the modern assumption that this song is clearly sympathetic to Napoleon, and adversely critical of the "Victors' Justice" that saw him exiled to a remote rock with a notoriously unhealthy climate.

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 02:28 PM

Interrupted by a clumsy finger! (Perhaps someone knows how to combine this post with that immediately preceding, and of course remove these two sentences)

Read, recite, or sing Watt's own original verses with the kind of admonitory tone implied by the verse about those who stand in high degree, and may fall as Boney has done. In fact, imagine how a fervent Bourbonniste would declaim them; no more the fallen Emperor will appear at his palaces in great splendour, no more like Alexander will he march off to War with his "crouds" of - as the Marshals were seen at the time by supporters of L'Ancien Regime - brigands and regicides. Only one thing, in fact, other than the pathos which is certainly the dominant mood to a modern understanding, makes it more likely than not that this song was intended to be sympathetic to Napoleon, and that is the Radical tradition in Paisley. It would, as I've argued, be a dangerous step openly to evince pro-Bonapartist views; but, crucially, the original song depends upon ambiguity, indeed Irony, to allow of "plausible deniability".

ABCD.

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 07:01 PM

Speaking as one with no special interest in Bonaparte, or knowledge at the time of any British support for him, when I heard Mary Black's performance forty years ago, it left no doubt in my mind that the song was sympathetic to Napoleon and painted him as a tragic figure - the latest prominent victim of Fortune's wheel.

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: JeffB
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 07:49 PM

ABCD - I take your point that men of Watt’s class who had Bonapartist sympathies needed to express themselves with great care and circumspection, although whether Watt was one is still unproven. And I admit that the way the political complexion of the times would have affected writers in particular had not occurred to me. (As well as wanting to avoid the attentions of police spies, they obviously depended on the goodwill of publishers and patrons to earn their livings). Partly, that was because the English songs of the early 19th century that I know may speak of hardship but not of political discontent, so if Watt had camouflaged his primary subject, it succeeded with me. And it was partly too that I am woefully ignorant of the depth of Scottish political dissent and its relationship to the French Wars.

It would be easy at this point to get sidetracked into a discussion of dissent on both sides of the border (let alone Ireland!) for the forty years or so following the 1790s. Tempting, but I think it would be wise to avoid that, at least in this thread, mainly because as far as folksong is concerned it would not necessarily have much to do with Bonaparte (ie. the ideals which he generated in the minds of some of the people of Great Britain). In that regard, The Isle of St Helena seems to be a rare example. I can think of others – parallels concerning other foci of political upheaval such as My Bonny Moorhen (another text by a Scottish poet – is that a coincidence?), and I am sure there are many Irish examples which others would be much better qualified to discuss. "Disguised Political Dissent in the Folksong of the British Isles" could make an interesting thread, or indeed thesis. No doubt at least several undergraduates have tried it. Just for fun (or mischief) I throw it out there – are there songs of the early 19th century which speak of political dissent? I don’t mean ephemeral ditties about candidates for local elections, but songs of substance which survived until Sharp and his friends came knocking on doors.

Would you mind clarifying your sentence with “ … get away from the modern assumption ...” which seems to contradict the previous sentence. And I cannot resist carping that NB had only himself to blame for being exiled to a remote rock; unreasoning ambition drove him to leave a comfortable berth in the Med. and get a few more tens of thousands needlessly killed or mutilated. Serves him right! says I

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 09:14 PM

Certainly, glad to clarify the thoughts about the "assumption that the song is clearly sympathetic to Napoleon". First, I wrote "modern" to draw a distinction between how the song immediately appears to listeners now, and how the words themselves do not allow any such confidence about the position/attitude/view taken by or attributed to the narrator/commentator/singer. The view of the song and its sympathies given by Lighter was exactly mine, too, only the recording was Frank Harte's. Of course a singer's interpretation will be consistent with what that singer makes of the poet's intentions, and in many cases there wouldn't be any doubt about mood and so on. But when considering a song dealing with a controversial contemporary figure at a time of coercion, repression, popular discontent and indeed attempted, if abortive, uprising, then the kind of "care and circumspection" you mention becomes part of the analysis. In short, while I think it very likely that the maker of the song was sympathetic to Napoleon, nevertheless the words themselves, as printed in Stirling soon after Napoleon's second Abdication, leave the poet's own attitude in doubt. That is, "plausible deniability", one of those carefully considered expressions that reveal just how busy some officials are at doing really useful composition.

following this thread, however, in particular the images of nineteenth -century printings posted on 30th May by MartinNail,

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 09:34 PM

This accursed machine is scrolling up and down uncontrollably at times, and that's another premature Submission.

I'll leave it here (agree with you about the potential developments that could be made of some related material, and a post-graduate thesis might well treat of the period with the emphasis you suggest), except to add that the images posted on 30th May by MartinNail, in particular the five verses with Scots orthography in the earliest printing, that from Stirling, have led to my thinking to learn the song properly (as distinct from being broadly familiar with it) and finding out what it sounds like when the words are given as Watt would himself have heard them, or as close as may be.

The air itself, of course, is another issue entirely, and Jim McLean's research is of course invaluable. If I ever dare give this one publicly, I doubt if the diction will have the kind of perfection displayed by Alma Gluck, way back when singers always had a frying-pan of rashers hissing in the background.

Hope this makes some sense (it's not easy to treat a subject seriously and in some depth without sounding all "academic") with regard to my own thoughts on the work.

ABCD.
Are the violets blooming still?

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 11:32 AM

Just to clarify that the melody sung by Alma Gluck was printed first in 1821 and so not the "Braes o Balquhidder" tune that Watt put his words to.

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 03:50 PM

No, I did get that from your earlier notes! Just having a laugh, but thanks for ensuring that in seeking "authenticity" I didn't go astray. Good Luck.

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: MartinNail
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 12:38 PM

Jim

Earlier you said:
"I have a printed music sheet dated 1810 of Tannahill's Braes O' Balquhither to the tune he set it to, The Three Carles o Buchannan."

Is this (or any other copy of the Three Carls music) available online anywhere? I'd interested to compare it with the Irish soldier's tune.

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:08 PM

You can see the music in R A Smith's Scottish Minstrel Vol IV, second edition, page 89.
The song is listed as the Braes o' Balquhither but the tune is listed as Three Carls o' Buchanan.
It's exactly the same as my 1810 copy. The 'old soldier song' is derived from this.

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 08:46 PM

United States Songster (Cincinnati, 1836):

               Bonaparte on the Island of St. Helena.

Bony he has gone to the wars of all fighting ;
He has gone to the place where he never took delight in;
Oh ! there he may sit down, and tell all the scenes he has seen, ah !
While forlorn he does mourn on the Isle of St. Helena.

Louisa does mourn for her husband departed,
She dreams when she sleeps, and she wakes broken hearted ;
Not a friend to condole her, even those that might be with her,
But she mourns when she thinks on the Isle of St. Helena.

Come, all you that have got wealth, pray beware of ambition,
For it is a decree in fate that might change your condition ;
Be ye steadfast in time, for what is to come you know not,
Or, for fear you might be changed, like he, on the Isle of St. Helena.

The rude rushing waves, all around the shores are washing,
And the great billows heave, and the wild rocks dashing;
He may look to the moon of the great Mount Diana,
With his eyes o'er the waves that are round St. Helena.

No more in St. Clouds, he will be seen in such splendor,
Or go on with his crowds, of the great Alexander,
For the young king of Rome, and the prince of Ganah,      [sic
Says he will bring his father home from the Isle of St. Helena.

Subject: RE: Origins: Isle of St Helena
From: Tony Rees
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 03:08 PM

My introduction to this song was from performance/s by Nic Jones, one still in my drawer that may or may not ever see the light of day. Introducing it, Nic says, people have remarked that I sing a lot of songs about Napoleon, but I don't know why, I only sing four!

Sending a bit of love out to Nic.

- Tony