Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Genie
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 01:04 AM

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I find this "issue" to be a solution without a problem.   Just about the only time I ever use, am asked to use, or find my audience using gestures to illustrate or accompany songs is when there are children in the audience (e.g,, "The Unicorn") or I'm doing programs for, say, an Alzheimer's residence (where the best way to get participation is to do songs from people's childhood, e.g., "She'll Be Comin' 'Round The Mountain).

One exception to that rule, for me, is one that's more about sound effects than gestures.   I really don't find Tom Paxton's song "The Marvelous Toy" very much fun or all that entertaining if you just sing it straight ("It went zip when it moved and pop when it stopped and whirr when it stood still ... ") without the sound effects (e.g., a funny-sounding "pop" or "pfflllbbbt" and a real whirring SOUND -- instead of the WORDS "pop" and "whirr").   I also find that sort of acting out the kid in the song "makes" the song. At least I find my audiences -- of whatever age -- enjoy that song much more if I "camp it up" than if I just sing it "straight."

Similarly, I often do "Doggie In The Window" as a "bark-along song" at some of my assisted-living and memory care residents, and it's a great one for getting people to participate, laugh, etc. But I don't do it for "higher functioning" groups, such as the fregular folk crowd, pub audiences, or independent living facilities.

The point is, if the occasion calls for silliness, setting your "grown-up" status aside for a few moments, or reaching out to children (or "the child within"), a song with gestures or sound effects may work quite well.   Usually, though, in an "adults only" setting, I neither relish nor perform such songs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 12:51 AM

What a bunch of stuffy ol' folkies.**BG** It's good to just let go and forget you're an adult, sometimes, imo. And, I'm not saying just because I've got a toddler grandson around all of the time. I've always enjoyed joining in.

Micca, over here, I only know Swing Low as a very reverent, slow gospel which someone sang every year at the school talent shows. I cannot imagine the hand gestures you speak of!Do tell!

I would suspect, as has been discussed before in some thread or another, a lot of audiences in the US are uncomfortable about this subject because we, as a nation, have forgotten it is okay for regular folks to sing, to participate, and not just watch. I think it's one more symptom of many causes...tv, less music programs in schools, nasty teachers telling a kid they can't sing, adults growing up hearing such nonsense. What joy then to coax them out of that tyrant-imposed shell and show they can sing, or clap along, or wave their hands in the air, etc.

Art! Yes, that'd be a GREAT show. Why don't you write to him and suggest it with YOU as a guest!

katactinglikeakid!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 12:39 AM

...Believe me shimrod YOU ARE NOT ALONE! I even hate those psychotically cheerful bastards who decide that the entire evenings entertainment will be spoiled if I don't join in the chorus to their song! I mean if I want to sing, I'll sing! if I don't then that's up to ME, It's MY choice! And If I decide I don't want to join in a chorus then the last thing I want is some annoying twat up front with a guitar trying his/her best to belittle me with innane comments and pointed remarks!

...So there!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 11:26 PM

It's a matter of personal taste, but I'm with Shimrod on ths one. I don't like "motion" songs and cringe inwardly until they are over if I'm in the audience. I sometimes have to do the unicorn song when I'm gigging in a pub and it is requested, but I refuse to show people the motions (most of them already seem to know them anyway). I realize that some people enjoy it but it doesn't float my boat.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 10:45 PM

As some of you may know, I come from the Wisconsin Camp Song Tradition, so people expect me to do action songs - and generally, I hate them. I suppose part of the reason for that is that I'm hopelessly uncoordinated, so doing hand motions is an embarrassment.

My sister was a Girl Scout camp counselor in Wisconsin, and she does all sorts of hand motion songs. Drives me frickin' crazy.

I have four motion songs in my repertoire, "The Grand Old Duke of York," the "Hokey Pokey," "If You're Happy and You Know It," and a "toody-toddy" version of "Singin' in the Rain" that you have to see to understand. Note that all these involve body motions rather than hand motions - it's my small-muscle motions that are hopelessly uncoordinated. I can get the body motions down pretty well. Yes, I do these songs with adult groups, too. I figure if we expect kids to embarrass themselves with such songs, then we should also embarrass ourselves at times. And maybe a little embarrassment is good for the soul.

But I think ONE motion song is more than enough for an evening.

-Joe-

But hey, I'm from Milwaukee, so of course I do the Chicken Dance any time I can....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 10:14 PM

True story:

I was at a Conference of the Public Library Association and the keynote speaker was a conductor of classical music. To make a long story short, he managed to get about 5,000 public librarians singing the choral part to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony in German. Together.

THAT was impressive!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 10:06 PM

Well, IMO, Seamus K is pretty damn funny and involves the audience when he does the dreaded Unicorn Song and I Am a Music Man (and I can play....) He manages to get the 'adults' involved!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 09:44 PM

I had fun, Deb. By the way I do a mean "Teapot" with the singer forgetting the word spout and declaring she is a sugar bowl - both hands on hips.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 09:36 PM

Shucks, Art. You shoulda been there when we did "Bang Away Lulu."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Effsee
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 09:26 PM

I am reminded of this:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8SETO8nrL8   
and Ray Fisher's "I am a miller tae my trade".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 09:11 PM

The hand and body gestures we used to do at the frat house while we were singing that old chestnut sing-along Roll Your Leg Over The Man In The Moon were simply WONDERFUL!!

Also, on the song "Waltzing With Bears"---the accompanying pantomime allowed the watchers to participate in the actual coming-of-age initiation ritual of stalking and killing, skinning and ultimately dismembering an actual surrogate bear. After the gig there was a wonderful to watch scrum of sorts to determine who amongst the throng got to take the stinking pelt home...

The surrogate bear was only identified several days (or weeks) later when, finally, the wife of the guy missed her husband because the lawn needed cutting yet again.

This'd make a wonderful American Life bprogram on NPR for Ira Glass, dontcha think???

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: DebC
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 08:33 PM

Well, Mary, if you got "Stars" wrong, I certainly didn't notice. I just want folks to have fun.

Deb
www.DebraCowan.com

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 07:13 PM

"Horses for courses" comes to mind.

Although Scouts and Guides have been doing it for yonks I suspect a quite different cohort picked up the habit (in Oz) at Rocky Horror Show performances and, later on, at screenings of the film Blues Brothers. In both of these [regularly repeated] venues there was a lot of what must be called 'chorus' activity which was quite inventive and I suspect some of the frequently-repeated items in the folk scene just begged for similar treatment. When I first visited the Top End Folk Club 20-odd years ago I was surprised to see the songs that attracted this group activity as I'd not seen any similar treatments 'down south' at all. Unless you count Judy Small's Auslan translator; those performances of active singing were definitely well received.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 07:08 PM

I wouldn't describe Shimrod and Co's attitude as one of being killjoys. Just as being rather pompous maybe...

Of course with some songs the signing has the intention of reminding us of the fact that there are among us people who rely on sign language as their means of communication. Gestures of inclusivity like that seem to me an excellent development.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 06:47 PM

Generally it should be avoided like the plague. However, honourable exceptions have to be made for the godlike genuis of Rolf Harris and the USA's greatest living writer of children's songs for adults, Jonathan Richman. I remember, years ago, standing in an audience of grown ups all pretending to be little aeroplanes at one of his gigs. I bet very few of them - me included - would have dreamed of doing it if it had been anyone but Jonathan.

Meanwhile, here come the martian martians...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 06:34 PM

"The Stars At Night" - another one I got all wrong. Joe Hickerson did one at his House Concert that I also got all wrong. People used to shudder when I showed up for folk dancing class - no coordination. But I do laugh at myself.

And if I am really uncomfortable I don't join in.

I can see Deb's point. It does get people in a more "singing mindset". Although that is rarely required at local song circles in Maine.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 06:28 PM

"All God's Critters Got a Place in the Choir"

'nuff said...and done. Nevermore.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 06:27 PM

I hate them now and hated them when I was a kid. I refuse to do them on command. if I ever get the desire to do them I will let someone know. mg

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:56 PM

Mind you, "Poor old Man" is very annoying.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:54 PM

Oh, they just grow, which is part of the folk process.

Don't haul on the rope
Don't climb up the mast
Any if you see a sailing ship
It might be your last
Get your civvies ready
For another run ashore
And a sailor ain't a sailor ain't a sailor any more.

I bet you can all work those out....


And then of course the final chorus

Don't haul on the rope
Don't climb up the stick
You can't sing proper shanties
If you haven't got a dick
So if you'd be a shantyman
A-rising through the ranks
Take a pair of rolled up socks
And stuff them down your pants.

You might be able to work those out too....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:54 PM

I've made some gestures while singing along. Not the sort that the rest of the audience were making, though. My wife whacked me a good one for it, too.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:38 PM

I rarely participate in such group shenanigans- and then of course I feel foolishly stuffy for not joining in.   

They make me uncomfortable, I'm not quite sure why. Some of the things are quite clever- I remember one performer exhorting the audience to contradance in their chairs. I don't remember how he accomplished it - and of course I just barely joined in (sob.

I know they feel they are icebreakers and that everyone is smiling afterward- but to me the smiles are of relief, not exhilaration.

There is one local song done here that drives me batty- It's something about 'and here comes the Moose' and everyone is supposed to raise their arms above their heads and create a mooserack they wave around. pfah!

However, in what I think is a Girl Scout kind of thing, once a group came on and their leader set one part of the audience to rubbing the palms of their hands together, another part stomped their feet- and I forget what the other third of the audience did. But it sounded like a heavy rainstorm. Very impressive and I didn't mind that at all.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: DebC
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:25 PM

Well.....

I do use a song with gestures at the beginning of my shows called the "Stars at Night". The reason I put it as the second song is because it gets people loosened up and GETS THEM JOINING IN!!!!.. I also see many smiles when we finish.

Here in the USA I am finding in many venues in which I sing, it's like pulling teeth to get folks to join in. It's not such an issue in the UK, but I do use the song over there as well and it seems to go down a storm. It's also a wonderful song for mums, dads, grannies and granddads to sing with little ones.

I think *some* songs with actions can be fun and do work with audiences. There are some that I have seen that don't. The "Teapot" is an example unless someone put a comic twist on it.

Deb
www.DebraCowan.com

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:06 PM

I think people who do this sort of thing,should be banned from folk clubs,but before they are banned, they should be made to drink double diamond/watneys red and then sing the Barley Mow stark naked.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Dave Swan
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:06 PM

The advantage of songs with gestures, if there is one, is that it prevents people from holding song books.

D

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:05 PM

Thanks everyone. I'm glad that I'm not completely alone on this one!

I know that many little kids love this sort of thing (which is good) - but I haven't been a little kid for quite some considerable time. I'm also quite serious and quite grumpy (it's my age, I suppose).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Uke
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:03 PM

"as far as I am concerned, such silly, childish ditties have absolutely nothing to do with folk music."

Some songs with actions, like 'John Brown's baby's got a cold upon his chest', have been around a long time (since the 1920s?) and used in all kinds of contexts - schools, community singing, parties etc. etc. - often spread by word of mouth. I'd reckon such a song has a good claim to be a folk song.

There's plenty of folk songs that are fairly nonsensical and maybe they haven't been given their due as a genre. Isn't nonsense always a bit subversive?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:00 PM

Whatever works..........to coin a phrase.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 04:47 PM

It is the duty of folk singers to pass along good songs which might otherwise be forgotten.

The main idea of singing such songs is that adults might go home and sing them to ther kids.

The one I use most is "One Finger, One Thumb", but I don't get too upset if not everyone joins in.

Shimrod, you'd probably enjoy "Don't you Hate it" by Modern Man.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 04:38 PM

Then again...remembering Edmund "Rolling Home" maybe we should have more action songs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 04:37 PM

I too am inhibited and always get the actions wrong so I feel even more foolish. Leave me alone!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 04:03 PM

I'd agree with Bee. Except for "Itsy Bitsy Spider"....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Micca
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 04:02 PM

Kat, I dont think you, or anyone else for that matter would regard the "gestures" that accompany "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" in the UK as "childish!!!!", they are, if anything, distinctly too "adult"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Bee
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 03:30 PM

Some of us are just a bit inhibited: I don't care, at a concert, if everybody else is clapping to the beat, waving lighters about, or pretending to be teapots - I'd just as soon observe stolidly and clap later if I feel appreciation is due. With the exception of concerts actually for kids, where such activities (minus the waving about of flames) are enjoyed and serve to vent a little physical energy.

If a performer were insistent (and some are), I'd be annoyed.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Megan L
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 03:21 PM

What a bunch of auld saurkraut I looks like McKenzie is gaun tae hae serious competition fur the Grumpy auld Begger award this year.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 03:10 PM

Gee, can't we all just be kids now and then?:-)

They are a blast with kids and I wouldn't mind them if the performer did them, mostly, and didn't insist the crowd join in, but really, if there are kids and adults, what's the harm? Or, even just adults...it's good to let our hair down now and then. Nothing too cutesy, though.

How's that for a wishy-washy answer? (Wringing hands while typing:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 02:50 PM

Depends on the song. There are some songs that are good "hollerin' songs" which have been done to death and lost any semblance of meaning, but are still fun to sing. Eventually, these songs attract either "actions" or alternative words. The well known one is "The Sharks They Played Meldeons". If the alternative words and the daft actions evolve naturally and become attached to the song as it is performed by general consent in that group or club, fair enough.

However, a silly song with actions just for its own sake leaves me cold. Debra Cowan started a set with one such song when I went to see her, and I wish she hadn't because it was off-putting, although the rest of her set was good.

But then, when I go to a concert and get asked to "Put your hands together for this one!" I stand with arms resolutely folded, and a stern countenance.

I went to see BB King at Rock City a few years ago. His "warm up man" came on shouting, "Who is it you want to hear?" and about 10% of the crowd shouted, "BB King!".

The warm up man then shouted, "I can't hear you!" and 100% of the crowd shouted very loudly, "You deaf c***!"

Some of just don't like to be patronised...

(If anyone reading this isn't sure about what "patronised" means, don't worry your pretty little head about it my dear.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: Bernard
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 02:47 PM

Childish, maybe, but nursery rhymes are as much a part of our folk heritage as, say, the Child Ballads (hah!).

Seriously, though, I agree that expecting grown-ups to join in without a very good reason is often inappropriate, but I sometimes do one if there are young children in the audience, as it helps them to feel involved. But I try to choose one that will amuse the adults, too, such as 'Okki-tokki-unga'.

No, you're not a 'killjoy'; if anything, those singers are more guilty, as they're wasting time which someone else could make better use of.

I suppose it's all down to why we go to folk clubs.

Subject: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 02:37 PM

I'm becoming increasingly annoyed with people in folk clubs who insist on singing 'songs with actions'. You know the sort of thing:

"I'm a little tea pot,
Short and stout,
Here's my handle (put left hand on left hip)
Here's my spout (extend right arm)"

Do such singers really expect the grown men and women in the audience to join in with this infantile type of nonsense? It seems as though they do - and anyone who refuses to join in (like me, for example) is regarded as some sort of 'killjoy'.

The fact is that I find it unfunny, embarrassing and demeaning to be expected to behave as though I am still an infant and, as far as I am concerned, such silly, childish ditties have absolutely nothing to do with folk music. What does anyone else think?