BS: Why are they leaving the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Gurney
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 05:20 PM

I'm behind the times, I emigrated to NZ more than 30 years ago, so I don't know the state of the nation there 'back home'. However, the troubles that you are experiencing are echoed to some extent in the two most popular destinations for emigrants.

My thinking, from memories of my youth and experiences of my life, is that unless you have an inclination to be a salesperson, media personality, or have the brains to be some kind of whizz-kid, you will never be financially secure in your whole life, supposing that you are a young adult now.

My contemporaries and I were raised in the knowledge that work, over a lifetime, would ensure a life of stability, and some comfort. People left school and found a trade or job within their competence, took their place in society, and tried to live 'happily ever after.'

The inequity that I read about (and see around me here) seems designed to bring despair to the average punter, who can get no work with stability for the future. With 10% of the population owning 80% of the wealth, how can an ordinary bloke make his way?

I can find no argument with other views expressed above, and I think it all adds together to create dspair in young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 06:53 AM

Goods points Gurney. Unfortunately, since the reign of that f**king Grantham tart, the ethic of rewarding hard work and valuing long experience seems to have bitten the dust. What's important nowadays seems to be Youth, the ability to talk the bollocks of ignorance and sound like an expert, and the distance a person's tongue can be inserted into the rectum of their workplace superiors.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 07:36 AM

Still blaming Maggie I see. how convenient it is to have someone to blame for ones own cock ups.
Let's see how long has she been gone now? How long has the 'Socialist' [sic] government been in power now?
Just because one is disappointed in the failings of ones own political party doesn't mean you shouldn't blame someone who has nothing to do with their shortcomings is it?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 09:08 AM

One of the problems is that we have increased access to information!
The papers (who need headlines to sell them) print drivvel and the great unthinking lap it up. If you are told something often enough you tend to believe it!
Things are getting better not worse!
10 years ago there were many areas of Manchester, Salford, Oldham and Rochdale that were "no go" areas, now there is only one part of Manchester (M40) that I do not go to (on my own) and that is because of damage to the veichle not me!
People move house more often now, one of the consequences of which is that we no longer have the same community spirit!
If we see a child do something wrong we do not correct it, but complain to our circle of friends. We are also more "litigious" and so we get the urban myth of the first aider sued by the person they are attempting to save!
We should all just judge a bit less and do a bit more!
This is not a new problem "forgive me the youth with their long hair, for I do not understand them" was one quote from Socratiese!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 01:42 PM

Giok, the values I spoke of - reward for hard work, loyalty and selflessness, were destroyed during The Bitches Reign Of Terror Over The Ordinary Man. She and her lackeys encouraged, nay inspired, the selfish, 'Me-First And Fuck You' attitudes we see so much of today.

And yes, New Labour ** spit** has completely failed to address that problem - mainly, I guess, because 'New Labour' is Conservatism hiding behind a New Name.

I lived through it, as did you. You know I'm right. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 02:22 PM

"'New Labour' is Conservatism hiding behind a New Name."

Exactly. Just like the Democrats are Conservatism pretending to be something else. They are the servants of the corporate-military-industrial complex hiding behind another name and pretending not to be basically almost identical to their opponents, the Republicans. They both serve the same money-driven agenda. They both run the same aggressive foreign policy and back the same wars.

Big Money has bought out all the major political parties long ago. Big Money prefers a $ySStem where 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 5% of the populace, and where workers and ordinary people are powerless wage slaves in dead end jobs with no security.

It's the New Feudalism, and it's very, very proud of its accomplishments around the world. I'm sure that more is yet to come. Maggie Thatcher wasn't the cause of it...she was more like a symptom...or a facilitator. She helped move the process along.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 02:52 PM

Let's see how long has she been gone now?

Seventeen years isn't it? We're just now getting teenagers who had parents whose whole childhood was spent in the ruins of the economic and social devastation over which Thatcher presided.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cooquie
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 03:55 PM

Precisely, McG.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 08:28 AM

Couldn't have put it better, McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:10 AM

It beggars belief that some people think so poorly of their contemporaries that they are will to ascribe their inability to cope with life outside of government diktat, and are willing to blame all the ills of society on one person.
No matter what you or I think of Margaret Thatcher you cannot logically blame her for all the ills of a generation.
Please be logical rather than doctrinaire, it is typical of the attitude in this country, where some people are still fighting and re-fighting the last war. Why look forward when you can look backwards, and why take the blame, when you can blame someone else.
Dog-in-the-manger is the name for that sort of attitude.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:27 AM

And 'Amnesiac' is the name for someone who forgets so easily Giok.
Much of what we find in the attitudes of people today has its roots in the **doctrinaire** politics of Thatcher and her gutless arse-licker pals. She created the 'Fuck You' generation, and they have passed it on down the line.

I can neither forgive nor forget. She crippled our industry, drove three million into unemployment, while selling off our nationalised industries and council housing stock to the benefit of her rich buddies.

Lest we forget. My last words on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:34 AM

The Common Market has done more to cripple our industries than she ever did. Nationalised industries were mostly inefficient and all over manned, they would have gone eventually whoever was in power.
Blaming the messenger has always been a popular sport.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

To some extent that depends upon what you call an "industry" Giok. If we are talking about production industries, whose products have to compete with those on a global scale, I can't dispute what you have written. On the other hand, Transport and electricity, for instance, should primarily exist as utilities, to serve an internal market. Most continental transport systems in Western Europe are subsidised and non profit making. They are also reasonably priced at the consumer end, integrated with other services and more reliable than those of the UK. Austria and Switzerland, two of the most daunting landscapes in which to operate trains efficiently, have superb rail systems. I know of no other West European country, which has the shambles of the UK.
Mudcatters, who know me, are aware that I live in Cologne and have done so for around half of my life now. I was on a visit to the UK with a class of teenagers from a grammar school two weeks ago. I had several mixed feelings. Inevitably one compares the land one left, to the one it is now.
A lot of things did impress me. The streets of Hastings, London and Canterbury were clean. There were well maintained, free public toilets everywhere. You no longer have to smoke when you enter a pub or a cafe. Even the old town of Hastings had an abundance of live music. Most people on the streets, in the cafes and pubs were cheerful and helpful. It is one expensive country though, isn't it? I don't know how folk can live on those rates of pay. It is also remarkable that within a short walk of the modern shopping centres, the old streets are full of boarded up shops. That is true in just about any town. That certainly was not the case when I lived there. It is easy to get emotive about a lot of stuff. From where I was looking, I would say there has been some change for the better and some for the worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 01:30 PM

OK Giok, we don't agree, no problemo. My last words, as I don't want to get entrenched in an argument which I suspect neither of us will admit to losing:-
Whether our industries would have survived or not is a moot point - she made sure they never had a chance. And she delighted in being Robin Hood In Reverse - stealing from the 'poor' (by which I mean the Comparatively-Less-Well-Off) to give to the rich. She held the poor in total disdain - a true-blue bully-girl who loved kicking anyone who she perceived as weak and defenceless. She even married a millionaire - no chance of her tying the knot with a Govan welder.
I'm surprised at your defence of Thatcher - she had little or no regard for your country or the welfare of your countrymen. The only people who did well were the go-getters and fat-cats, it was largely due to her influence that it became fashionable to get rich by moving paper balances around instead of by making real wealth - goods for trade.
And that's where we still are today - millions in 'non-jobs', waiting-on in restaurants, taking degrees in 'leisure and tourism', following college courses in 'health and beauty' because there are no real jobs and New-Labour-Conservatives don't want the true number of unemployed to become common knowledge.
She wasn't the messenger Giok, she was the architect.
Ah well.....
:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Mrs Olive Whatnoll
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 02:25 PM

It's a fecking lie that people are leavin' the UK on account of me and me 'usband Eddie! Absolute rubbish! We are among the best that our class offers, salt of the earth, the kind of 'ard workin' people wot made this country wot it is becoz we ain't afraid to get our lit'le 'ands dirt'y! Yes, we made Great Britain wot it is...God's bleedin' kingdom on Earth!!!

If I 'ad the rotter that spread them lies about us 'ere, I would blacken both 'is eyes and set the dogs on 'im!

We 'ave purchased 2 of them vicious Rottweilers since the last "incident" with the nyebours. I am glad to say that we 'ave 'ad no more such incidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 02:38 PM

I'm defending her because she is being unfairly blamed for EVERYTHING, I am not defending her politics per se, I just hate to see someone demonised to that extent, when it is impossible to hold her responsible for all the ills of the UK. The unions would have had accept some restrictions of their power at some point or another, but had Arthur Scargill not chosen to start a fight he could never have won, she would not have succeeded to the extent she did in emasculating the unions.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 06:45 PM

I left the UK to take up a job in China. I settled here and over more and more visits back to the UK for business and to see family I realised that I could not live there anymore.

Crime is low here and naturaly the money goes further. In general I began to find the UK a bit of a depressing place. Overtaxed, expensive and with a nanny state attitude. Thats not to say you can do what you like here in the workers paradise.

I was more worried for Mrs SC's safety when I was in the UK as she has a bit of a rosey eyed view of the country. For myself a visit to Liverpool in May for a reunion confirmed that the big cities in the UK are scary.

I have never had to walk down a street at night here and fear being mugged.

On the move to Aus' hopefully in a couple of months and I have no intention to live in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 12:53 AM

I've been working with a Scot who is in favor (ahem, excuse me, 'FAVOUR') of Independence. He says you know how the South treats the North the second you cross the border and the quality of the road changes "They're headed for round three of the land clearances" he says.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 12:56 AM

Neddy Seagoon: "Don't worry, dear listeners, Old England isn't finished yet..." -pause-

"It's finished," -tone sounds- "NOW!"

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 04:04 AM

If it is such a bad place....... why do we see stories of hoards of forigners wanting to come here and take all our jobs?

Is it just me or do I note that most of the most outspoken comments come from "guests"??
If you are a guest you should conform to the common standards!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 04:56 AM

Because not many other countries allow them such unfettered access I guess. There is also the fact that nobody can die of starvation in the UK, unlike some of the countries without a welfare system which they may come from.
I can't remember the exact figures, but it was something like only the UK and one other country allowed free movement of labour from the new EEC accession countries when they joined last January, [or was it the one before?] so that is the main reason that we have received such a large influx from Poland et al.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 05:15 AM

"Crime is low here and naturaly the money goes further. In general I began to find the UK a bit of a depressing place. Overtaxed, expensive and with a nanny state attitude. Thats not to say you can do what you like here in the workers paradise.

Er, bit of an understatement that last bit. +Comparing living in Britain to China?

Tried looking up 'Tiananmen Square' from your Chinese version of Google? Want to carry a picture of the HH Dalai Lama? Want to say what you think? No way!

I bet you're glad you're off to Australia - at least you'll be able to call the Chinese Government a bunch of morally and politically corrupt dictators who torture their own people and virtually enslave many others whilst maintaining an illegal occupation of a sovereign nation, and oppressing it's people by relocation of Han Chinese and systematic persecution of it's religious and political leaders including the kidnap and incarceration of it's second most important leader The Panchen Lama.

But sorry, you can't can you?

We're all guilty of supporting China to a greater and lesser degree, and I too find Britain depressing sometimes, but thank the maker it isn't like China (yet - we'll all be speaking Mandarin in fifty years time).

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 05:51 AM

. . . and furthermore I agree with Backwoodsman about Thatcher - spot on.

"The unions would have had accept some restrictions of their power at some point or another, but had Arthur Scargill not chosen to start a fight he could never have won, she would not have succeeded to the extent she did in emasculating the unions."

I'm not so sure Giok. Thatcher had the unions in her sights from day one. She won her majority off the back of the binmen's strike and from the outset started legislating against the unions. Remember this:

"We had to fight the enemy without in the Falklands. We always have to be aware of the enemy within, which is much more difficult to fight and more dangerous to liberty."

Of course, what no-one knew at the time was Thatcher fully intended to destroy the unions powerbase by destroying the industries they represented. Her decimation of our various heavy industries and the manufacturing base has effects that are still felt today - the fact the so-called Socialist goverment still adheres to monetarist dogma is testament to the effect this woman has had on British politics.

The continuing nationalisation of state-owned industries and assets in the 80s and 90s created a country where the people feel disenfranchised from the infrastructure that supports them - how many of our utilities companies are owned by British firms (when I go walking in the hills near my home, the land I walk on that was once owned by me as part of the collective is now owned by a French company) ?

I could bang on for hours about how the policies of Thatcher and her cohorts have undermined the neation's self belief and eroded the core fabric of our society - but the evidence is all around us so there's no point. She deserves her demonisation for the simple reason she acted without compassion and regard for the long-term consequences of her actions (a political trait not confined to her, granted) in matters that fundamentally changed the very nature of how we interact with society and each other as individuals - and our feral youth is just another consequence of disregarding the fact people need a strong, cohesive society in order to live together in tolerance and peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: mouldy
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 06:29 AM

When my husband was still alive, he spent most of his time working overseas, largely in the former USSR, but also at one time in China. Each time he returned, he complained more and more about the deterioration he perceived of the country in general, the cost of living, and the nanny state. He said that when/if he retired, there would be no way he would live here permanently. He didn't come up with an alternative (but we thought we still had plenty of time left to work on that one)!

In 4 weeks time, our son emigrates to NZ, with no job to go to, but with permanent residency granted to him and his fiancee. He is currently trying to get a job, but has said he will clean toilets if he has to. One of his main reasons for going is the lack of opportunity they have to buy a home here. He has been in work since he left university 6 years ago, and has been living with his fiancee for 2 years in a modern rented flat. Even combining their incomes, they can barely afford to buy, except in the more run-down areas of Cardiff (where they live). He works for the Environment Agency, and wages are not that high, with laughable annual raises at his level, compared with the private sector.
If they settle, I may also go there, and my other kids are also showing interest. My older daughter has been told that, as a pharmacist, once she has taken the necessary registration exam, she could be out there in 3 months. She hasn't made a decision yet, but she keeps coming round to it from time to time in her conversation.

Andrea


Andrea

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 06:54 AM

What destroyed our fishing industry, what destroyed our steel industry, what enforced the rules on water treatment to the extent that it was cheaper to sell the water companies to private enterprise than to modernise the system to meet EEC regulations? What made us sever our favourable trade agreements with NZ and other old trading partners because they were outside the EEC, thus pushing up the price of food?
Is it because of Maggie that our water tastes like swimming bath effluent, or our lamb is more expensive? Of course it wasn't, and it's all very well to use her to demonise her, it's a convenient peg, and saves people having to think intelligently about why this country is in the state it is.
How many houses has banning fox hunting built, and how many old age pensioners are unafraid to walk the street since the introduction of ASBO's? This government is just as bad as any of it's predecessors in modern times.
Who abolished corporation tax, who made it possible for entrepreneurs to buy up companies on borrowed cash, asset strip them, and pay only 10% tax or less for the privilege?
As I said, I am no Maggie Thatcher supporter, but I am in favour of equality and blame sharing, not scapegoating, and blaming people for things that happened long after they had gone. It's like blaming the measles you had as a child for the bronchitis you have as a smoking adult!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 07:18 AM

"and saves people having to think intelligently about why this country is in the state it is"

If it makes me a thickie because I blame Thatcher et al for planting the seeds of a fair amount of discontent and social problems then so be it, but that still doesn't alter the fact we are now reaping the benefits of the aggressive monetarist policies of the 70s, 80s and 90s, and the trickle down effect is finally trickling upward and the middle classes are feeling the bite.

The fact the current goverment has taken this socially divisive dogma and carried it on to the extent they have is deeply depressing - I am a small business owner and the Labour party have made my very existence precarious, do me no favours with the massive amount of tax I pay but they are only continuing where Thatcher led when she introduced monetarianism as a political ideology.

It would be a buffoon who soley blamed Thatch for the ills plaguing modern society, but at least acknowledge the rough waters we are now sailing were due to a sea change she instigated thirty years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 07:38 AM

Thank you Stigweard, you echo my beliefs. Glad I'm not alone! :-) :-)
Giok - we can't agree but that's OK, I respect your views and your right to hold them.
Cheers M'Dears.
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 07:54 AM

Well we're all equally depressed about the state of the UK that's for sure, just we don't all attribute it to a single cause ;)
Who would have thought that under a Socialist [sic] government the city would be handing out bonus payments in excess of a million pounds to to traders in futures etc. That the top rate of tax remains the same no matter how mush over the baseline you earn, and that indirect taxation which soaks rich and poor alike would still be the norm. Now that is something I blame Thatcher's government for, the myth that indirect taxation was the way to win votes, and that more than ANYTHING else is the cause of social inequality today. Before you all shout 'He's agreeing with us' remember this. It wasn't her who dreamed the idea of indirect taxation up, it's just that she was at the helm at the time, but you can't blame the Titanic for the iceberg.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 09:17 AM

I don't attribute all of todays ills to Maggie and The Forty Thieves directly Giok. If you read me again, I'm saying that she and her foul cronies set the scene, and encouraged (praised even), the worst attributes of human nature - unbridled greed and total disregard for the good of the people as a whole.

And the current Tory-In-Labour's-Clothing crowd have done very little to right that scenario as far as I can see.

That's me done. Still friends!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 09:56 AM

Although you can't blame Titanic for the iceberg, it would have been nice to have someone at the helm who wasn't intent on steering towards the scene of the accident . . .

The tax situation is ludicrous though I agree. It beggars belief what has happened in this country in the past decade. In fact, sod it - I'm going to go out and smash some phone boxes in frustration with the hoodies . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 10:04 AM

"unbridled greed and total disregard for the good of the people as a whole."

Now that sums up the attitude prevalent in most 1970's Trade Unions - The same trade unions who attempted to hold the country to ransome and dictate to the duly elected parliament of the day. Those who disagree can regale us all about how idyllic things were in the decade before Margaret Thatcher won the 1979 General Election.

If you are thick enough to believe that one person invented and promoted and was responsible for "unbridled greed" in our fellow human beings then more fool you. Likewise the policies were continued and adopted by some of her most severe detractors because they work, they were necessary, they were definitely unpopular, but then that is what a real "leader" is supposed to do - provide leadership if even if the pill is bitter to swallow.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 01:18 PM

I asked before, and I'll ask again ....... WHO is leaving?
If some people are coming here (because they can) it says two things
1 Some people want to come and can't!
2 Those who can, and do, do so for a reason.

I wonder what that is? Maybe it is better "here" than "there"?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 02:43 PM

Who is leaving
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 04:42 AM

"If you are thick enough to believe that one person invented and promoted and was responsible for "unbridled greed" in our fellow human beings then more fool you"

Eh? Who said it was one person Teribus? No where do I see a suggestion Thatcher is responsible for all the greed in our fellow human beings.

"Likewise the policies were continued and adopted by some of her most severe detractors because they work"

Well, it depends who you are doesn't it? it may have worked for you Mr.T but there are plenty of people who it didn't work for then and it still doesn't work for now. The continuation of the monetarist policies instigated by Thatcher is not an indication of how successful they are, but how weak and idealogically corrupt the watered-down socialist wonks of New Labour were and are - in thrall to the capitialist con and effectively abandoning their original supporters who voted them in on a platform of social equality and justice.

"but then that is what a real "leader" is supposed to do - provide leadership if even if the pill is bitter to swallow"

If you're thick enough to believe that, then more fool you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 09:53 AM

Wise words Stig.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 03:28 PM

Now that sums up the attitude prevalent in most 1970's Trade Unions - The same trade unions who attempted to hold the country to ransome and dictate to the duly elected parliament of the day.

Whereas that could never happen nowadays could it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 03:35 PM

New labour licked the arse of big business and sold them peerages to raise the cash to get them out of the thrall of the trade unions, who already cost one labour government an election. Their being so closely identified with people like Arthur Scargill was costing them votes.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 09:06 PM

According to your own figures "Giork" there are more people comming than going ...... so for the third time WHO is leaving? And does it matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 09:49 PM

It was my exquisite pleasure to dine and drink with a handfull of BRIT Ex-Pats this summer, in places obviously outside the UK.

Bottom line for ALL of them.....same reason we colonists broke from our mother tongue's teat........TAXES!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 10:08 PM

I offer these thoughts about Linda Kelly's first posting here:

...the consequences of doing wrong -that you will not be eligible for (dependant on severity of their crime) a passport, state benefits, state healthcare or social services-that if you ostracise yourself from socety -society will do the same to you-and that is a lesson everyone should be taught from their first day in school.

Quite so, and I agree. But when you outlaw people -- which is effectively what is being proposed -- they will simply take what they want because nothing more can or will be done to them.

Ultimately, the concepts of right and wrong have to be instilled in the home and reinforced in the schools -- and right done not through fear of punishment, but simply because its right.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 09:30 AM

The question was 'Who's leaving', not how many matey.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 10:28 AM

"Bottom line for ALL of them.....same reason we colonists broke from our mother tongue's teat........TAXES!!!"

Well let's hope when they're all dribbling down their chins and pissing in their pants they are going to their local hospital in their new homeland and not come back here expecting free health care after dodging their tax burden . . .

. . . which whilst is too high is still something we have tro pay for our services. Sodding off abroad is OK if you're rich but for those of us who don't have a choice it's a pretty rotten thing to do. The fact Labour has made tax-dodging for the rich and big business one of their primary policies to attract these people and companies to the UK is one of the more cynical manoeuvers for a party that continues to call itself Socialist.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 06:54 PM

The emphasis is on the word "Leaving"

There are more coming than going! Perhaps there is a reason?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 07:26 PM

Stigweard, Folkiedave, Backwoodsman, tell us all how great it was back in the 1970's - the three day week, the "social" contract, the power cuts, the backlog of people waiting to be buried, hospital porters deciding whether or not your complaint warranted admittance to hospital, the UK having to go cap in hand to the IMF - If you don't remember it I certainly do.

Tell us how much per day it cost the British Tax payer to keep those "Nationalised Industries" (White Elephants) running. But of course that was what you on the left call "Government Money" wasn't it. Tell us how much UK produced coal and steel cost per tonne, then explain how using it could keep British industry competitive. Sure initially there was high unemployment but that disappeared long ago, UK led Europe in terms of foreign investment, low inflation and low unemployment rates. Oh, and, oddly enough, if the country had gone for Poll Tax you'd have a far fairer local tax system in place now than the present Council Tax, its a pity that the political parties in the UK at the moment haven't the guts to admit it.

No the days of Trade Unions dictating to the elected Government of the UK are over, thank goodness.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 08:10 PM

I have completely resolved Great Britain's chronic social problems vicariously in the game "Rome - Barbarian Invasion" by moving north from the Roman holdings in Londinium, conquering the rest of the wretched island including all of Scotland as well as neighbouring Ireland, and putting ruthlessly to fire and sword any of the local people who objected to the gift of enlightened Roman rule.

If only it was that easy now... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 03:11 AM

" conquering the rest of the wretched island including all of Scotland as well as neighbouring Ireland"

Typical imperialst Yank answer to everything - invade and occupy ; )

It all started going down hill when the Romans arrived. First they put all our Druids to the sword, raped the daughters of our chieftans and finally pissed off and let the Saxon hordes in. Country has never been the same since.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 03:14 AM

"Oh, and, oddly enough, if the country had gone for Poll Tax you'd have a far fairer local tax system in place now than the present Council Tax,"

That would have been odd.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 04:54 AM

Tell us how much per day it cost the British Tax payer to keep those "Nationalised Industries" (White Elephants) running.

What an interesting view of society you have Teribus.

You seem to imagine we no longer subsidise industry.

We do of course - if only through tax relief to private equity firms and things like the export credit guarantee department, massive subsidies to farming etc etc. We subsidise the arms industries so that when those we have supplied with arms default, the arms manufacturers don't suffer.

We massively subsidise private industry through PPP partnerships.

Here in South Yorkshire we used to have a heavily subsidised public transport system and the lowest fares in the UK. Now after the wonderful years of Thatcherism and her cronies like Blair we still have a heavily subsidised transport system and we have some of the highest fares in Britain. Thanks private enterprise. We cannot buy a ticket that covers all buses and all trains and all trams. I can do this in Spain, France, Hungary and a load of other countries and American states and it works fine. Why not Sheffield? 'Cos those wonderful private firms don't allow it.

We destroy our youth clubs and social activities for people and then wonder why we have chaos on the streets.

We destroyed our apprenticeship system and then wonder why we have Polish plumbers.

As far as coal is concerned we produced the cheapest deep-mined coal in the world and the industry was mega-efficient. We now import gas from Russia, tell us Teribus what will you do if they decide to cut it off like they did to the Ukraine? Open up the coal mines again? Invade Russia?

The Poll Tax brought Thatcher down because it was an inefficient way of collecting local taxes, politician after politician (including those on her own side) told Thatcher it would be and they were proved right. I don't know if you ever noticed but loads of people didn't pay it. No local taxes are fair but a property tax is the one tax the rich can never avoid. The thing that is wrong with it is that it has a ceiling.

The days of trade unions dictating to government are over - shame they have been replaced by accountants and financiers who seem to spend most of their life avoiding tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 04:58 AM

It would certainly prevent anomalies like mine where 2 people on limited incomes [pension/benefits] pay the same amount of council tax as the people down the road a wee bit who have 3 wage earners in their house.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 05:41 AM

There will always be anomalies like that John. But you make the assumption that people paid the poll tax. Large numbers of people avoided it.

Mine poll tax was mega complicated for reasons I will not bore you with now - I paid no poll tax (legally) for over a year. Oh that I could do the same now - and I am in a high rate house and on a pension though currently my wife works.