BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)

Subject: BS: say, parents...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 12:49 PM

In America we have a famous advice columnist, Dear Abby. (We are on our second Dear Abby, and I must say that she is quite an improvement over the first.)

Last night Abby printed a letter that made my heart ache. I'm going to type it out.
========
Dear Abby: The thing that comes to my mind when I look at my friends is "How much did you cut today?" It hurts my heart to know they do it. A couple of them do it on their legs. They wear pants in the summer so no one can see the nasty gashes and scars. My other friends do in on their arms and wear long-sleeved shirts or sweatshirts in 80-degree weather.

I am only 14. What can I say or do to make them stop? I feel like if I tell them, they'll feel bad and cut more. I don't think they realize how much this hurts not just them, but me.

       Frightened and worried in Minnesota.
==========

In case you are not in touch with young people of today, she is talking about her friends slashing themselves with razors and knives. I understand that a girl can go on the Internet and find a welter of sites and blogs which encourage this behavior. Abby's advice was for the writer to tell her parents, who can go to other adults to get her friends help. Good advice,though I wish she had been more informative about who the "other adults" would be.

What is going on with our kids? I read about kids cutting themselves, starving themselves (anorexia and bulimia), doing illegal drugs, killing themselves in autoerotic hangings. A college student I know suddenly has bad eyes. His father, who treats substance abusers, fears that he put LSD in his eyes. That's the "in thing." LSD in their eyes! How stupid can they get?

When I was a teenage girl, the threats to us were getting pregnant and
getting drunk. The threats were realized, but not often.

The really bad side of youth was reflected in photographs in the Milwaukee Journal of girls who had run away and were being looked for. I never see pictures like that any more; don't know why. Are we just writing off our runaways?

What is going on? How can the kids have so little regard for their own safety, their own worth?

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents...
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 01:03 PM

Some of this "cutting" may be considered decorative - like getting a tatoo. Here are some examples

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents...
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 01:11 PM

Tattooing is a totally different subject, of course. 'Cutting' is not meant to be decorative. My own suspicion is that it is designed to make the person feel alive, i.e., if I can feel pain, I must be alive. But my opinion may be simplistic.

Has anyone done research on cutting? How far back does it go? I had never heard of it until a few years ago- about the same time as new blue jeans were cut to make them appear old. I don't suppose there is a correlation.

But it is a heart breaking phenomenon. Perhaps it is just another thing that relates to 'future shock'. Has anyone read Alvin Toffler lately?

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents...
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 01:27 PM

About 15 years ago I worked with a young lady who cut herself. She couldn't (or wouldn't) explain why she did it. It seems to have become a compulsion by the time I knew her. She cut her wrists and forearms but not deeply. She was smart and funny and not bad looking. Her boyfriend was a real loser.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents...
From: Becca72
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 01:39 PM

I would guess the "other adults" to be teachers, guidance counselors, the principal...or any other adult who will listen.
My neice used to cut herself during a very bad time in her life in her early/mid teens. I also have an ex boyfriend who was doing it 20 years ago. From what both said to me, Ebbie is mostly right. It was done to prove they still had feelings but also to mask other feelings (like stubbing your toes to forget about your toothache, simply put) and there are some people who even say it is a stress relief for them, like their anxieties flow away with the blood or the act of cutting. I'm by no means an expert but I know it's been around for awhile now.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents...
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 02:31 PM

That's about what I've heard from my daughter who knew a young girl who cut herself. I think it is obviously another form of self-hate, too.

Cutting as evidenced in Wesley's link is what we've always called "scarring" and has been used throughout tribal societies as a right-of-passage, etc. That, to me, is totally different than a young person self-mutilating.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents...
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 02:35 PM

It is related to depression, and it tends to emerge when the depression is present, and it goes away when the depression is under control. It's not a fad or a social behavior, and it is not new.

The kids may simply scribble on their arms with markers or ink pens, as well, and they may repeatedly pick at blemishes or acne until they bleed. They can become obsessed with piercing and tattooes, and may impulsively cut and dye their hair.

There is a peculiar look that people get when they do this--it is a stare, with an ashen, expressionless face--it is so distinctive that family and friends often call it something like "The Look" or "The Stare"--

The problem isn't isolated to young people, but we pay close attention to what young people do, and so we are more aware of their problems--

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents...
From: RangerSteve
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 03:13 PM

In the yuppie-infested area that I live in, parents both work long hours to afford to over-sized house, expensive landscaping, and 3 or 4 luxury cars that they must have to impress the world. They never see the kids. The kids exist to do things that the parents can brag about to their friends. If the kids don't perform, they have no purpose. From the time the kids are born, their lives are on a schudule, the parents plan the kids colleges and careers. The kids are given everything in the way of material things, but love and attention are missing. It's a miserable life, being expected to impress parents that view you as prized posessions to be shown off when ever possible, or cast aside when you don't live up to expectations that you don't necesarily want to live up to.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 03:30 PM

My daughter has a friend who has cycled through various sorts of selfdestructive behavior. For this young woman it is, I think, a way to convince herself that she is as unimportant and she thinks her parents and friends think she is. They don't notice the cutting, because they don't notice her, and this is how she proved it. (This is a rough translation of what I understand is her take on it--I've read some of her poetry on her blog and posted supportive remarks after some of them.)

I think she has grown out of some of that in the last year or two.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents...
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:24 PM

People who cut themselves have psychiatric problems. These are not necessarily caused by landscaped lawns, the number of cars parked in the driveway, or the perceived indifference of those around them.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents...
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 07:47 PM

this is a powerful radio program on self-mutilation with links to further sources of info.

Coping by Cutting

Background Briefing is Radio National's agenda-setting current affairs radio documentary program. It varies from week to week in style and content, sometimes doing straight investigative journalism, sometimes exploring important ideas or social issues in on-the-road documentary style. You will find profiles of politicians, analysis of behind-the-scenes issues that shape society, and sometimes an exploration of an idea – or perhaps a murder.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 07:56 PM

Back in 1971, I had an Army barracks roommate who would slice away at himself with a knife. I think part of it is that he was trying to get an early discharge from the Army, but that wasn't the main reason.
It was creepy, sharing a room with somebody like that.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 08:03 PM

What's coming down the road? Fashionable amputations? Blindings? Brain damage? (well, they've been doing that for generations)

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 08:20 PM

one of my friends (late 20's - early 30's) coped in her teenage years & early 20's with a mentally-ill father by slicing into her arms. When I first met her a few years back I assumed the scars were recent & came from playing with her big dogs.

It's only in the last few years that an astute doctor realised what was happening & sent her to a psychiatrist. And it is only in the last few months that her father was once again hospitalised and finally accepted medication that is stabilizing him.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:02 PM

A friend's daughter began doing this in her early teens. This followed the death of her twin sister from leukemia a couple of years before after a five year battle during which the family was dominated by the need for Sarah's treatments. Her sister, when Sarah was dying, told her brother that she wished she would hurry up and die. When it happened the poor kid was totally lost in guilt and that, eventually, led to the self mutilation.

Her mother got her help relatively early on and she's a lot better now, although she still has her 'blue' periods from time to time.

There seem to be many causes of this problem but it does seem to come down, in the end to a lack of self worth. I think that there is a lot more pressure on kids now to conform to ideals of one kind or another, from parents, teachers, their peers and the media, which pushes pictures of what one should look like, the way to behave, what one needs to be 'in'.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:45 PM

It is a behavior often associated with Borderline Personality Disorder, but the incidence of it in teens seems to be increasing. For many teens it is both experimental and copycat behavior, and most teens who cut, scratch, or burn themselves do not continue the behavior. It is not behavior than can, or should be ignored, however, even though the cuts may be quite superficial.

For those who habitually cut (or burn, or otherwise engage in self-harm) it is a very complex behavior. Ebbie's explanation may be 'simplistic', but it is very close to the reason many clients give for the behavior. That, and as a way to tolerate, or divert attention from emotional distress. It can become very compulsive and can be hard behavior to extinquish because in the immediacy of the distress, it works, even while it causes even more shame and emotional distress over the long haul.

While I do not mean to imply that everyone who gets a tatoo or body-piercing do it to experience the pain, I have had more than one heavily tatooed and/or pierced client tell me having these procedures done serves the same purpose as cutting or burning.

Many mental health professionals have speculated about the dramatic rise in tatooing and body piercing among the youth in our society, along with the increase in experimental cutting observed in teens.

It suggests that in some incidences, we are either not teaching kids the skills they need to cope with and tolerate stress and emotional distress, or the conditions of our society and families (families themselves are under a great deal of stress) result in more and more teens being subjected to more stress and distress in their daily lives than they can reasonably be expected to cope with.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 10:34 PM

I went out with a young woman who frequently cut and burned herself, and had been doing so for years. There were numerous reasons for it.

Self-hatred.
Guilt feelings.
Self-punishment.
Stress relief.
Not knowing what to do with herself.
Feelings of worthlessness.
A desire for self-destruction.
A need for catharsis.
Covering over inner pain with outer pain.

Basically, it's an extreme lack of self-worth.

I made a sincere and determined effort to help her for about 3 years, eventually realized it was utterly beyond my powers to do so, and after that I avoided her, because she was severely damaging my life as well as her own. She died in her early 30's from a combination of alcoholism and lack of nutrition. She clearly had nothing to live for, in her opinion, and she just gave up after a certain point.

When she was younger, she definitely had a lot of hopes and dreams. I can vouch for that. They were unrealistic and extremely romantic dreams, and she didn't have any of the practical tools to make them come true in the real world. When she reached the point where she could see that none of them were going to come true, she pretty much quit doing anything except trying to dull the pain by any means possible. Those means were alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, promiscous sex with just about anyone who was available, and cutting and burning herself.

To have this going on with someone you love, and I did love her, is just about enough to make life seem completely unbearable...so I can have more than a glimmer of just how bad she felt most of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 11:06 PM

Our son Michael went into serious clinical depression and began cutting along with other things. We began counselling, testing, etc. and he continued until he had a very bad cut on the top of his hand. As I bandaged it I asked if he thought of suicide when he did that and he responded, "What else would be the point?"

We have been going through hell for the past year and it peaked back through the month of June.   I'll tell you all about it at another time, but basically he tried to commit suicide three times, threatened to kill himself, his girlfriend, her mother, and us.

I'll hit the high points of details later here, but trying to access help was completely frustrating and we can now tell you exactly what caused Virginia Tech and Columbine...........

I haven't talked about this here for a lot of reasons but we're slowly emerging from the woods. Hold a good thought.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 11:19 PM

I'm so sorry Michael has been struggling, Pat. I hope you found good help for him and that everyone is okay. harpgirl

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 11:31 PM

Pat,

Holding all of you in my heart and mind.

I certainly know about the problems accessing help in the public system. The private 'systems' can be as bad in this corporate age of managed care.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 11:39 PM

There is a difference between cutting as a way to manage emotional distress and attempted suicide, but the two behaviors are far from mutually exclusive.

If you have teen who is cutting, or know a teen who is cutting, do everything you can to get help for the kid.

Pretty good list, LH.

It is truly heartbreaking.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 12:13 AM

Phew...hear that, Spawdarlin'? That's a long-held breath...thanks so much for posting about Michael. what you and your family have been going through is mind-reeling. You should all be proud of the way you have handled things and know that we are all here for you, as in the past.:-)

luvyabucketskat

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 12:33 AM

Ranger Steve has got it right, there are so many unhappy people out there ignored by the very people who are supposed to love them the most, you see it all around you, everywhere you go. I think it's also the reason for a lot of the bad behaviour by teens and children, you see them in the street or on buses acting really loud, swearing and cursing. All they are subconsciously saying is "Look at me, listen to me, for gods sake someone please take notice of me!"
All anyone really needs is LOVE not material possesions.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 02:28 AM

spaw - hugs & good wishes to your son & your family.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:21 AM

The neice that Becca 72 mentioned is my Grand daughter. I had a heart to heart talk with her about cutting, and she told me that she did it because it was a pain that she was in control of. Other pain in her life was heaped on her by her no good father.
Now that she is in control of her life, no more cutting.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:27 AM

This is a sample of her writing. She wrote this when she was not yet a teen ager.


Little Girl



I saw the eyes of an old woman

In the young face of a child.

It was experienced and knew much

Though tender, pained and mild.



I saw the posture of a weakened woman

In a body that had known a sad childhood.

She carried herself without meaning

Following orders without thinking if she should.



I saw the strength of a warrior

In a heart that knew only to survive.

It bought itself to face each day

And yet it was barely alive.



I saw the spirit of an aged soldier

Inside the lost soul of a mere baby.

It had fought many battles

And now it was crying "save me".



I saw a little girl

Who had grown up far too fast.

She had already lived her life

Though she barely had a past



I saw all this,

And it broke my heart to see.

And then I looked a little closer

And saw the little girl was me.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: redsnapper
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:44 AM

Like 'Spaw my own daughter has been involved in this for several years and it is heartbreaking to watch. As opposed to the people RangerSteve and Bruce Michael Baillie are talking about, and there must be many such, she is much loved by family and knows she is. In her case what Ebbie and Little Hawk said strikes a very strong note and I think a lot of it arose from not fitting in with the peer pressure of material possession, fashion, being "one of the gang", sex, drugs, etc while at school, and the depression that resulted.

Like others, I have seen that this behaviour is dramatically on the rise and it says a lot about the breakdown of much of what is valuable in our society.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:50 AM

that's an amazing piece of writing, Kendall.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:20 AM

Funny isn't it that so many of these teens with this problem and depression and are also so very creative and artistic?

Michael's depression can be directly tied to the chemical problems caused by Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. If you haven't educated yourself about the recognition of this extremelyserious problem that manifests itself in varied ways, all of them serious, then do so.

Add on to this that Michael was adopted and the woman who gave birth to him had little real interest. There is a growing recognition of another mental condition spurred on by the Fetal Alcohol/Depression and affecting a lot of adopted kids (and others as well) called Reactive Attachment Disorder. The group of symptons here include many things that a lot of teens do, the difference being that RAD kids display almost ALL of them. RAD can be diagnosed as early as the first year and had we known then then what we know now..........I never gave a lot of credibility to the womb/first years stuff as I figured we could overcome all of that with "Good Parenting." HA!!! For a RAD child the classic tenets of good parenting make the problem worse. Ain't that a bitch? And even worse, by the time they are teens, its too late to ever really overcome all of it and the best you can do is work toward making them safe to themselves and others as well as hopefully functional in society. Its an uphill climb.

Some of the better known folks who can be documented to probably have RAD are some European guy named Hitler, a gourmet named Jeffrey Dahmer, and that man about town, Ted Bundy. The guy at Virginia Tech hasn't yet been included but he meets an awful lot of the criteria.

Anyway.......BRUCE.........Not all of the problems are bad parenting. Thanks to all of you for your good thoughts. They really are good to read.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: redsnapper
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 09:19 AM

Agreed 'Spaw... it is strange. Perhaps that personality type are worse affected.

My daughter is highly intelligent (but dropped out of uni because of her depression) and is a gifted artist and photographer.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 10:12 AM

So sorry, Spaw. But talking about it is the first step.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 10:16 AM

Sandra in Sidney,

That is a tiny sample of her writing. She was published in a national magazine (17 I think it was) at the age of 14.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 10:18 AM

All anyone really needs is LOVE not material possesions.

Not true. I know Spaw and Karen have given their boys tons and tons of love and good parenting. In the case of Michael it wouldn't matter how much love they showed/told him, he would still have RAD and still need much intensive treatment, which they are thankfully able to get for him.

I also know that even if someone is loved, if they don't hear it expressed and shown through conscious ways, it can still not be enough. This is especially true with children.

Yes, love is better than having a bunch of stuff, but with it comes some responsibility to engage in meaningful ways with the object of one's love.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Tinker
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 10:19 AM

Blessings Spaw,

A good friend of mine added a foster child to her family when the neighboring Aunt became overloaded. At age 11 there was an extreme uphill battle that inclulded depression, cutting, suicide attempts and eventually running to the opposite coast to live with the father she had not seen in 12 years....
She too was very artisic. ONe summer with a lot of rangling for scholarship money she headed off for two weeks of college level art school. Cutting there was almost a norm.

Bright artistic kids (perhaps) have the ability to name and focus the pain that others withdraw from. "Seeing to much" is a blessing and a curse and controling one's response is never easy.

More than materialism we've created a culture where we believe pain is controlable. Whether it's physical or emotional we want it to be cured yesterday. And we really don't want to admit it could impact us. For teens who feel isolated and alone almost by definition ,emotional pain becomes one flashing indicator that something is wrong with them... not the basic premiss.

Spaw, there are hugs going out and yes, damaged wiring can cause all types of short circuted behavior, but keep the care flowing for the household and yourself. Keep firm and strong. Feel the love here. Give the system hell.

Tinker

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Bee
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

I wish the best to all of you who are coping with this behaviour. A close relative of mine began cutting when she was twenty, a while after her father died in front of her. She had tried unsuccessfully to resuscitate him, and it seems to have preyed on her mind for a very long time, resulting in depression, self-esteem issues, and self-harming. It took nearly ten years for her to completely recover, but she is now a stable and happy working mother. There is hope.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 05:36 PM

Everyone has emotional pain. Not me of course, but everyone else does.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,Ebbie
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:48 PM

That's in line with my own thinking, Richard. I believe that every one of us has our own tragedy- to different degrees, of course. One person may have accidentally killed someone while the person standing next to him or her may have never been able to forget the manner of death that her or his dog suffered, but tragedy for all that.

It is one of the elements that make human beings so endlessly fascinating.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:20 PM

Here is a link to one of the foremost researchers on child trauma and RAD: Bruce D. Perry.

Bruce D Perry articles

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:22 PM

And another link:

Info on RAD

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:49 PM

Good God, Spaw. Going through it with one's girlfriend is bad enough...I can hardly even think how bad it must be going through it with one's child.

As you say, "Not all of the problems are bad parenting." No, not by any means. There are all kinds of reasons for it.

I spent so much time depressed when I was a teenager that it was practically my standard state of mind. My reaction was passive...I would just withdraw from people and go farther in. It doesn't surprise me much at all when I hear about stuff like Columbine. That's what happens when the inner pain bursts outward toward others instead of just drawing in deeper and hiding itself.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 11:43 PM

When my middle child was 15 (ish) her counselor said she needed to speak to us and came to the house one night -- I thought she was going to tell me that my daughter was gay -- but instead she told me my daughter - the child of my heart (and I dearly love all three) was cutting herself -- and WE HADN'T EVEN NOTICED........

That child was in black depression for years -- we count ourselves lucky she made it through and now she is a happy healthy 22 year old with a 2 year degree and a direction in her life......but we did not think it would come.

She wrote a marvellous poem about cutting which I cannot lay my hand on....but she also wrote this one ...

Naked in the rain,
she runs
The freest alive
Soaking, in moist reaity
Seeing truth as it should be
Possessionless, with out a price

Stars in her eyes
Scars on her wrists
Crazy,
Maybe,
But that's how it is
Of all of the people, and all their degrees
She's the only one to realize
The only one to see
They're not people , alive,
They're bodies, collecting things

Naked she runs
Washing away the fabric world
Stripping the labels taped to her skin

Drops paint her body
   Traces her outline
Exploring her curves
Following her pounding legs
As she races alone
Collecting more than just titles and things

Crazy,
Maybe,
But that is how it is.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 12:23 AM

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences, everyone.

On a deep level, I am awed and saddened at what Spaw, kendall, little hawk and truebrit have suffered.

On a more ordinary level, I want to know why the parents of the kids in the Dear Abby letter fail to wonder why their kids are wearing sweatshirts in August in the Midwest. HELLO!?
===
I'm sorry I can't quote the statistics now, but I saw an article in the paper that showed an amazing number of students at Ivy League colleges are cutting. These kids can't all be suffering from serious mental illness or RAD. So I think there is something to the idea that they feel so pressured to excel that every minor failing leads to desperation.

All I can say is - be nice to a kid.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 12:32 AM

Well _ guess I am not so sure what the difference is -- I think Mim felt pressured even though we didn't mean for her to feel pressured.......but I think she was depressed and therefore 'desperate' - what is the difference? She told me that the marks on her arms were from cat scratches -- I honestly didn't question it. She wore jeans all the time......

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: KT
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 04:35 AM

Kendall, and Trubrit, such writing from ones so young.....wise beyond their years.....wow.

I think there's a direct connection between our creative energy and our emotional state, whether that be one of joy or pain.

Spaw, check for pm.

KT

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 08:26 AM

Here is the one that always tears me up:



The world is too close in us

Late and early

Caressing and dying we lay waste our powers

Little we see the grief that is ours

We have given our love away,

A bleeding death.

This demise that lays vulnerable to the lies

This hound that wails into the night,

And, is collected now, like bleeding flowers,

For this, for everything, we are discomforted,

It does not touch us,

But, still, we ask,

"How could you do this to me?"

I'd rather be a child, wrapped in a torn shirt

So that I, running on this broken land,

Could have glimpses to make me less forlorn

And, see myself rising from the sea

And hear the Gods blare comfort from a horn

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 10:55 PM

For the record, the imagery is Wordsworth's--

"THE WORLD IS TOO MUCH WITH US; LATE AND SOON"

          THE world is too much with us; late and soon,
          Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers:
          Little we see in Nature that is ours;
          We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
          The Sea that bares her bosom to the moon;
          The winds that will be howling at all hours,
          And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers;
          For this, for everything, we are out of tune;
          It moves us not.--Great God! I'd rather be
          A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn;                         10
          So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
          Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn;
          Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea;
          Or hear old Triton blow his wreathed horn.
                                                             1806.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 10:55 PM

Oh Kendall------

I am trying to track another poem that Mim wrote that is on topic.........

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: kendall
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 08:00 AM

She is an avid reader, so I'm not surprised that she rebuilt this to suit herself.
However, how many pre teens know anything about Wordsworth?
At the age of 8 she read Great Expectations.

When she was around 15 she came to me with a problem that had no good solution. We were trying to decide which route to take, and thinking out loud, I said "To be or not to be. That is the question"
She picked it up and finished the whole speech by Hamlet! I never memorized the whole thing myself.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: open mike
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 02:00 PM

another perspective...thread drift,
i remember seeing images in the
Time/Life book the "Epic of Man"
of ancient and tribal peoples
who decorated their skin by
cutting with sharpened stones
and shells, and irritating the
cuts by rubbing in ashes, to
form welts.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0728_040728_tvtabooscars.html

http://www.randafricanart.com/Scarification_and_Cicatrisation_among_African_cultures.html

this scarfication (and burning "branding")
can be seen on several web pages
and like a tatoo (without ink)
some can actually be beautiful
but a very frightening trend
http://www.bmezine.com/scar/scar-faq.html

http://modblog.bmezine.com/category/scarification/

www.scarabbodyarts.com/scarification/

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 02:47 PM

Scarification and tattoos and piercing are of course a different thing from the kind of stuff this thread's been about, cutting and all that - but I wonder whether for some people it might provide a sort of escape route from that kind of compulsion.