Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?

Subject: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 10:37 PM

There are telephone trucks working down the road, so I stopped and asked what they'd doing. They're from AT&T, setting up high-speed DSL for my area. I'm about a mile from the phone exchange, and the technician says the service will work for almost a two-mile radius. He says I should have DSL withing 60 to 90 days.

So, what do I need to know about it, and what equipment will I need? What speed is sufficient for normal Internet use? Any caveats? Will I still have times of extremely slow service?

-Joe, finding it hard to wait-

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 10:52 PM

well, Joe DSL will seem BLAZING fast compared to dial-up. I have a cable modem, so I can't tell you exactly what you'll need, but their installers will have all the details. The initial setup is slightly more complicated than cable, but they are way past the experimental stage, so it may work just fine...and one mile is well within the safe radius.

You 'can' usually buy any of several levels of service on DSL...but unless you just wanta spend $$$ or need super speed, 'basic' may be enough.Take a look here for general ideas.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Willie-O
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 11:16 PM

If you're just a mile from the CO (switching station), you should get very good performance, and it doesn't slow down when more users are online in your are (as cable does), because you have a dedicated line into the CO. When you sign up for DSL, the ISP usually provides the modem preset, you just plug it in and go. You don't want to have too many extension phones using the same line-but 2 or 3 is fine as long as you put filters on all of them (included in the kit they'll send you).

When considering different programs, make sure you don't get one of the apparently-cheap ones that adds a surcharge for excessive bandwidth use (in plain English, this means downloading movies.) Just the "regular" plan, not the "basic" or the "ultra" should be fine as long as there are no surcharges aka "bandwidth caps."

It ain't perfect but if it works well when you set it up (following the instructions, especially about phone cable length and proper filter installation), you will be laughing.

See DSLreports.com for a great resource to hear other users experiences with various services, do speed tests, etc.

W-O

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 12:01 AM

I had AT&T/Yahoo as my ISP for a while. Tech support was poor and online Help was laughable. For example, Yahoo could not tell me how to turn on the Yahoo toolbar. AT&T told me that there would be no advertising on my e-mail program, but after a few months I received a message that Yahoo was going to start putting ads on. (I wondered if they did that to everybody.) Soon I had ads bouncing and flashing and taking up 1/3 of my screen.

One day I was going to compose an e-mail to my nephew about my sweet little grandniece, and I suddenly found myself looking at some stranger's bare butt. (It was a weight-loss ad.) In time I switched to a local ISP that is much nicer than AT&T. They use AT&T's lines, but they are a nobler enterprise.

Do you live in an older home? AT&T just couldn't get my service to work. I spent much time on the phone talking to kids who were sure I was too stupid to plug the jacks in right. Finally they sent a technician to my house, and he discovered that we had a old phone jack with a filter that was blocking the signal. That jack was probably older than the people I was talking to.

Occasionally I get slow service. I'm sorry to say that it's often right here on the Mudcat. I can live with it.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 02:08 AM

You'll need the modem and a router (a router is good to protect one computer from attacks, but is necessary for attaching more than one computer to the network). You may need wireless cards if you decide to go that route (it's easier than running cat5 wire around the attic, and you can and should set up your network to respond to the MAC address on each wireless card and not advertise the network to all and sundry).

You'll need a good firewall and you'll probably benefit from the various programs that scan the system looking for malware (Spybot Search and Destroy, Spyware Blaster, AdAware, etc.). I use Comodo free firewall and antivirus, I got tired of all of the Norton nonsense, though the do do the best job of ad blocking.

I have very slow DSL, but one of these days they'll get the fibre optics into the neighborhood and that should improve things considerably. And I might switch to a cheaper system. There is one provider here (Earthlink) that gives me DSL, though my neighbors on either side are still being told it isn't available at all in the neighborhood. That is nonsense, but it isn't the fastest DSL, like I say. It's much better than dialup.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 02:13 PM

I'm never quite sure about the difference in distinction but I have broadband rather than DSL. It is much faster than dialup and one of the greatest benefits is the ability to play videos without the recurring burp in transmission.

I have Yahoo as one of my servers and it serves me well. It isolates spam so that I never even see it unless I wish to. As for ads flying in and obstructing my work, they are kept away by popup blockers.

I have surrounded myself with various spyware and anti-virus programs, including AdAware SE, SpywareBlaster, Spybot and AVG75free. Of them all I trust AVG the most - and I have it set on automatic daily scanning but I run the others periodically in order to delete spyware and just generally make sure that AVG is correct when it says that I'm in good shape. So far, it has always been corrct.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 02:43 PM

Joe, I'm not sure what AT&T is doing out there...either upgrading the quality of the phone line itself or running fiber optics. I'm pretty sure (but not certain) that my DSL runs off of the regular telephone lines. Earthlink, here, will tell you what they can do for you now. I pay them $53 per month, and that is for both the ISP and the DSL connection. Everybody has deals for the first few months, of course.

Everything has been pretty well covered already. My kit from Earthlink came with 3 phone filters for the regular telephone lines - and these are needed if you want to make regular calls because the DSL mucks up the line otherwise. You might need to get an ethernet/network cable (the jack looks like a phone plug, only bigger) if one doesn't come with your DSL kit. Shorter is better. Your PC almost certainly has an ethernet plug if it is less than 10 years or so old; if it doesn't, the card to install one costs about $20.00.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 03:06 PM

Ebbie, "broadband" is a generic name for a number of means of highspeed Internet transmission formats. DSL goes over telephone lines, and then there's satellite, cable, and fiber optics. Another means of transmission is over electric power cables.

Art, AT&T is running fiber optics to my telephone exchange (which is a platform on the side of the road). For now, the DSL will go over telephone wires. I thought this was downright wonderful until I talked to Pene Azul yesterday - he has fiber optics connecting direct to his computer. So, I'm jealous all over again.

I can't complain about whatever improvement I get here in the Sierra Foothills. Right now, stuff comes to my computer by Pony Express.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 03:32 PM

DSL is physically more complicated than many people understand. Specifically, these people were the Earthlink folks who were supposed to service the DSL service that was available in my neighborhood. My local phone service was Verizon, who maintain the wires, but for some reason did not initially offer the service.

Wlithout going into a long, but rather amusing account of the half year that I had to pay for, but did not receive, Earthlink DSL, I will merely suggest that it is best to get service from whoever actually maintains the physical infrastructure(meaning your local phone company) because they, and they alone, service the complex system that provides the connection in the first place.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 05:28 PM

I wondered about that, Ted. I wondered about getting DLS from Earthlink or somebody on my AT&T phone line. Thanks for the advice.

As I understand it, DSL (Digital Subscriber Line) and the new Internet service that's supposed to run over power lines, are mutiplexed signals that ride on top of the regular phone line traffic (or the power transmitted to your house, in the case of powerline Internet). They are transmitted at a very high frequency over the carrier line, and then demultiplexed to a normal signal at the receiving end.

Another phone-line Internet format is ISDN (Integrated Services Digital Network). I think this format is slower than DSL (but may have longer range), and I think it has been discontinued in most places.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 07:34 PM

Art, you're paying too much. Earthlink lowered their prices some time back, but I think they won't actually lower it for you unless you call them about something. I had a matter to discuss with them and while they were at it they dropped my monthly bill by $10.

Everything has been pretty well covered already. My kit from Earthlink came with 3 phone filters for the regular telephone lines - and these are needed if you want to make regular calls because the DSL mucks up the line otherwise. You might need to get an ethernet/network cable (the jack looks like a phone plug, only bigger) if one doesn't come with your DSL kit. Shorter is better. Your PC almost certainly has an ethernet plug if it is less than 10 years or so old; if it doesn't, the card to install one costs about $20.00.

You probably don't actually need those phone filters, but they're there for "just in case." I had a filter wired in at the point where the phone line enters the house and that line is dedicated to the DSL only, the there aren't any other filters needed.

Earthlink is providing my slow DSL over the regular copper lines, but most of the other providers in the area aren't offering it because AT&T is still putting in the fiber optic lines. Until those are in, they're not offering the slower speeds that I'm getting now.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 09:30 PM

You should install the phone filters--the interference goes both ways. Furthermore, some of the filters provided by the carriers are defective. If you have a dedicated DSL line, as SRS does, you won't need it because there won't be any other phones on the line. Otherwise, put 'em on, and make sure they work!

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 09:43 PM

My bet is to get cable if you can; better still, fiber optic, much less available. High bandwidth makes all the difference.


A

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 12:30 AM

The guy from Covad who initially delivered the Earthlink DSL modem said the individual phone line filters are usually not necessary. It's an FCC rule regarding an occasional problem that most folks don't have, or so he suggested.

I'd already been dragging wires for a star-shaped phone system and that's why the Covad guy could put in the dedicated line, it was already in place (we're still mostly limping along with the old lines, but I'll finish this one of these days--I have a 66-block in the hall closet, and that's where the DSL line runs from). I did a similar setup for the Dish Network. I can change rooms the cable goes to by hooking up the different rooms at a central point at the top of my attic stairs.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 12:59 AM

There are various 'grades of speed' - ADSL, ADSL2, ADSL2+ now in Oz - prices escalate accordingly. Popular here is 'shaping' - after your allocation has been used, you get speed restricted to 64 Kb/sec.

Note that unless you are planning to run a 'web page' served from your home PC - and you should really have a permanent IP address for that to work, though there are technical ways around that - you will normally be quite happy with a 'split rate' access, whereby your upload speed is always slower than your download speed.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 09:44 AM

If you use p2p (There are legal uses for it.), remember to choke the upload speed to about 10 kb/s or service will be seriously compromised.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 05:23 PM

Someone out there might maybe be able to advise on this:

My father-in-law has decided he'd like to get on the Internet. (He's 96, which should make most of us oldies around the Mudcat feel like youngsters, if he decides to drop in here once he's up and running.)

Anyway he gets Sky TV, and they have an offer here in the UK that provides a free basic broadband connection via ADSL on the phoneline. But when they entered his phone number and postcode in their system it came up as indicating that he couldn't get the basic connection, but would have to go for the next one up, £17 a month.

However when I checked with a handy site called Broadband Checker it came up with a message induicating that the local exchange is ADSL enabled but that "An incompatible product may be installed on the line" - and I think that the problem that stops Sky from being able to offer the free basic service might be that his line has an emergency alarm system attached.

It's a great system, and it saved his life recently when he had a fall and was able to get help within minutes by pushing the button he wears round his neck, so obviously he's not going to give that up. So my query is, does it seem likely that this would be the problem (rather than his maybe being a bit too far from the local exchange), and if so, is there some way round it?

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 05:55 PM

Might be, McGrath...it fact, its possible that the emergency system is actually using some kind of wireless connection to what amounts to a DSL modem. I'd suggest running the question by the emergency call service people.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 05:07 AM

OK, so now it's 1 month later. I've been checking the AT&T Website several times a week, and AT&T is finally accepting orders and I got mine it right away. With luck, I should have broadband in a week and I'll be able to see all those YouTube videos you people keep linking to.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 06:18 AM

Joe -

AT&T DSL has been theorectically available in my area for a little over a year now, but I've been unable to get a hookup because:

1. It appears to require use of Yahoo as the ISP.

2. I can get no answers to any questions about equipment, expected service, costs and fees, except "The installer will explain it when he puts your system in."

I have asked specifically if a long-term contract is required. Same answer.

I have asked specifically if I can "see the contract." Same answer.

I have asked specifically if the rate quoted is an "introductory rate" and if it's good for a limited time. Same answer.

I have asked specifically if I'm required to purchase additional equipment, if there are equipment lease fees, or if there are options to use my existing equipment. Same answer.

I have asked specifically for a quote on "combination service" to provide DSL and voice accounts on the same line. Same answer - modified to add "the installer will take your order for any additional services you need."

A couple of "wireless" services, and cable have appeared recently. I've made less of an effort to ask about them, but the contacts I've attempted get exactly the same ambiguous - "sign the contract and we'll decide how much to charge you later." The cable guys quote a very nice low rate for internet connection, but refuse to tell me whether I'm required to have a cable TV subscription to get that rate. (Other sources confirm that I would be required to subscribe for TV to get the internet rate, but the cable guys won't tell me until after I sign a contract.)

I've almost concluded they are all trained by Microsoft. It would be nice to have the income to absorb "incidental costs" that might arise, but I can't afford to sign up to something without knowing what it's going to cost me; and I've been refused any and all information needed to make a choice.

So let us know how your installation turns out, and good luck with it.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:16 AM

John, I think those people are all like the "tech support" staff in India: they don't really know the answers to anything. They work off of a prepared script, and if you stray too far they have only one default response.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 12:03 PM

If you can get AT&T in your area, you can also get companies like Earthlink, because they contract with the line carrier to provide their service. Find out what Earthlink would charge, then work backwards and ask AT&T if they charge the same or less.

Usually they send you the first modem free, or you can buy a package at a local big box store and there is a rebate or something to bring the cost way down. You should buy your own router, don't lease one, and get your own network cards if you're doing wireless in the house. The less you can lease from those folks the better. I had a modem stolen when the house was burglarized and wasn't having any luck getting the type that Earthlink wanted me to use, so I finally got Earthlink to sell me one of their modems for $50.

The person who comes to install the modem is going to be sure the line isn't too noisy and is probably going to tell you to put filters on your other phones, unless you have a filter put in at the point where the line enters the house and you have a dedicated DSL line (I do). The installer is basically there to do the job because so many computer users are unfamiliar with the equipment and will call customer service many times when they don't get it right.

Somehow I don't think this will a problem for John in Kansas.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 01:21 PM

Well, maybe I spoke too soon. I got this rather cryptic e-mail this morning. I almost deleted it because I had no idea who "HSI Support Team 1" was.

Pre-Qual Red (mb)þ
From: HSI Support Team 1 ([e-mail])

Sorry! The DSL pre-qual request submitted on [phone] is not qualified for DSL because the Pre-Qual result was RED. AT&T - DSL Support Center

So, does that mean they tested my line overnight and found that my particular line won't work even though my area has DSL? Or does it mean that it's just a brief delay because the ordering was made available before the setup was complete? Or what?
Thank you, AT&T.

The instructions make it sound simple - you just plug the modem into your phone line and into your computer, or you order a "Gateway" wireless router and network into it from one end and plug the other into the phone line. The Yahoo! think is just linke the free Yahoo! anybody can get. I'm under the impression I can keep my MSN e-mail address since MSN hotmail seems to give its services away nowadays.
Wish me luck.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Greg B
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 01:39 PM

Joe, what they're saying is that they did a pre-test on your line
and it appears that the quality isn't up to DSL standards. It may
be that you have a bad 'pair' or an issue with the house wiring.

Or it may be that the route from your CO to your home is so long
that you can't get reasonable speed.

So it may be fixable.

Or, not.

Do you have cable TV wired to your house?

I've been using Comcast's cable modem system for years,
and it now is running 6Mbps down, 1.5Mbps up. A LOT faster
than DSL ever will be, and I find the phenomenon of 'lots of
users on so slow down in speed' to be a myth perpetrated
by DSL providers. I've just never seen anything less than
the maximum rated speed at the time (started out at 1Mbps,
jumped to 2, then 3, then 6 at the same price).

Verizon is now running their FIOS into the neighborhood, so
there'll be competition for that speed (and TV, and telephone).

My phone has also been on Vonage for years, which runs piggyback
on Comcast cable modem.

The router idea is in any case very important. Though there is
software that lets you hook direct to your PC provided by the
cable modem and DSL folks, it often doesn't allow the whole family
to share the connection and it leaves you a bit vulnerable. If you
have a choice of providers ask 'do you support routers?' If the
answer is 'no' in this day and age, tell them to pound sand.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,rock chick
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 03:29 PM

Well we have had BT for some years and yes it is very quick, however we get major internet problems which have continued for months. We believe this is because we are on the edge of the exchange therefore it disconnects at times; this has become worse over the last 6 weeks or so. However we have another engineer coming tomorrow to hopefully sort the problem. If you get BT Broadband and you are not on a borderline to the exchange then I believe it is very good, however check this or you can in for a lot of problems.

Good luck

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 05:26 PM

Several recent articles in various tech journals and magazines have lamented that no matter what kind of service one gets, traffic expands to tax the capabilities of the service.

While stepping up to a better system always will seem better at first, there's a tendency for familiarity to make it seem "not as fast as originally," just because you become accustomed to it; but there is considerable hard test data to indicate that most do slow down as they add users, and as users learn new things to do.

The "web" as a whole is beginning to think seriously about whether the bandwidth required for "everybody" to download all the movies and TV shows they want is even possible, and some ISPs have begun "reducing bandwidth" for hoggish users, or in some cases disconnecting them entirely. (A "lunatic fringe" have called for limits on YouTube due to the bandwith consumed there.)

At our regular WVA Festival, for the past couple of years a local (Winfield KS) provider has set up a temporary wireless network in the campground so that people can "stay connected" while at the festival. Free the first year, I believe it was about $30 (US) for the week or so of the festival this year. A couple of people who tried it this year commented that it "wasn't wireless speed," and apparently many had trouble even getting a connection at times. (There were some problems with "coverage" for the wireless system, but connection problems were common even where good signals were found.)

The "Festival Radio" - temporary FM during the festival only - was soon broadcasting appeals for people to STOP DOWNLOADING MOVIES so that others could get on to check their email.

While this temporary setup probably was on a single server with limited bandwidth, almost any service hardware is likely to bog down if enough people try to use it to the "spec" limits of their individual connections.

Although it's almost certainly obsolete information by now (about a year old), and covers only US providers, one report that might still be helpful if the providers in your area aren't moving too fast is at Find the Fastest ISP, 08.02.06, By John Brandon at PC Magazine. Even if the data is obsolete for your area, the brief discussion of "why things aren't quite what the ads say" may be of interest - even for those outside US borders(?).

An even older article, ISPs, 7.11.02, By Bill Howard, PC Magazine, may still have some helpful info about what to look for, but may be of most interest to nostalgia buffs who want to remember "the good old days" of 5 years ago, before movie downloads ate all the bandwidth. (Does anyone know if the "AT&T/Yahoo broadband provides no dialup [or WiFi etc.] alternate that you can use while travelling" still applies?)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 06:52 PM

well I wouldnt sign up for any long term contracts with DSL service.,
NExt year WIMAX should start to be available in many places with up to 50 times the speed of broadband. ANd you wont have to plug into either the phone line or cable as it is radio based.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:58 PM

petr -

Suggested reading:
It's Already Crunch Time for WiMAX.

The reality is that the chip that Intel promises will make WiMAX a real hit won't appear until (scheduled) May 2008.

Before the chip is useful, laptop makers will have to produce new laptops to use it, and people who want it will have to buy new laptops.

Plug-in cards may be available fairly soon, but it's "iffy" whether people will give up existing "pretty good" services to switch to something new, even if it is a bit faster.

There are only two WiMAX service providers, and they've already divvied up the market. They have a fair number of subscribers already, but all use other systems now. ONE "trial setup" covering a 15 mile radius around Intel's Hillsboro, Ore. campus. A 175 square mile coverage around Portland OR is planned, with "future expansion," of course; but NO TIMETABLE has been published even for the tiny Portland start up area, or for any expansion elsewhere.

Coverage for about two thirds of the US is planned "in the near future," but the areas to be "WiMAXed" are areas already reasonably well covered by the two providers, with subscribers using other kinds of service.

Speed of 50 times broadband between your machine and your ISP won't be particularly useful, if the net continues to be bogged down serving TV and Movie downloads to the few gluttons with T1 (or better) already.

So don't hold your breath, unless you're one of the extremely lucky few who live in one of the areas selected for the first coverage - and can afford new computer(s) to use it.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 06:26 AM

I've had DSL off the local phone company for about a year.

Fee was based on different bandwidths to be provided over the connection, I took something slower but still much faster than dial up.

Be careful to see if there is a download limit. The cable providers in my area have a surcharge if one downloads too much within a month (by download I'm not necessarily talking about movies or files, but net exchange of information, including emails and forum messages). This can result in surcharges over busy months. The local DSL has no download surcharge.

In my case there was no basic home site such as Yahoo that had to be used. A base email address was set up through the provider but I was not limited to it.

My local phone company charged me for a year when I was not using the service, so stay on top of your phone bill.

The little filters which allow one to isolate your internet connection from your phone use over the same line worked fine for me.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 06:54 AM

Joe,

I have DSL & it's faster & more reliable than dial-up, but not perfect. Even w/ the filters, I have a little static on my phone line. BTW, if you need more filters than are included in your initial installation, they are av available & cheaper at Radio Shack. Best of luck!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 12:36 PM

Im not holding my breath for WIMAX, although (correct me if Im wrong)
one wouldnt necessarily need to upgrade a computer - but just a wifi modem and card. However one should expect to upgrade computers every 5 years or so anyway.

The industry is geared up for installing it into TIVOs TVs, Computers etc and it is a fairly large group of companies working together - such as Intel, Sprint NExtel etc.. that when it does take off it might just be a disruptive technology, why would anyone want to pay for cable or dsl when you can have something 50x faster for the same price.

It would provide some other competition to the cable and telcos that always tack on some system access fee, or long distance fee to your bill. Both in Canada and the US the cable & phone companies also have been complaining about the high bandwith usage such as voip and videoconferencing and end up degrading the service unless you have a contract with them.. That would provide an alternative.

It will also give a choice to those in the country, where its not worthwhile for the telcos to put in cable or upgrade the phone lines.

It may take longer than I think, but I remember when someone told me about dsl a few years back, we waited a while to get it for - since the printing business deals with large files it certainly is handy.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 12:52 PM

thanks for that link JohninKansas,

I agree with your point that - traffic will fill up with increased bandwidth just like it does when they build a new highway.
BUt you have to admit that having an alternative to the wired networks will allow for more competition which can only be good for the consumer.

and people in remote areas will have an opportunity to get the faster service..

right now a sort of wimax lite- is available in the seattle area, and the one article that I read about it (Businessweek) required only the special modem (which can be used anywhere in town, but higher areas get faster service). And getting another computer nowadays is not as expensive as it used to be, you can get a pretty good system for 600 or $700 Canadian (which I guess is the same in US$)

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 02:47 PM

There is no question that WiMAX will come along, and be available to most people, given the substantial investment already committed by two or three large "pushers," but the schedule is still uncertain and widespread availability is likely to take longer than has been implied in a lot of the hype. If you're lucky, it may be in your area fairly soon, but those of us out in the boonies will probably have a year or two - at least - to wait for it. For some, good fiber optic lines may be available first, although subscriber prices will need some adjustment to compete with planned WiMAX services of comparable speed.

The WiMAX modem available at present, which is required where the service is available, is an external desktop style unit. It's maybe "luggable" but not portable. The release of the new Intel chip (planned for May 2008, but informed people know about schedule reliability?) is pretty much a requirement for portables/laptops to use WiMAX effectively. Although a half dozen laptop makers have committed to "incorporating" the new chip, there's as yet been no committment that I've heard of from desktop builders, and the laptop makers have indicated that it will be a "modular element" - which implies that it will be an option, probably at extra cost, for those who believe they'll be able to use the new thing.

The cheaper computers currently available seem to be available only with Vista. Any other (Windows) OS doubles the price (since most of the cheapest ones don't permit substitutions). Having been forced to look at Vista on my new laptop I may be compelled to nurse my existing 6 year old computer for another 10 or 12 years, or switch to 'NIX. My current opinion is that Vista is a worse fiasco than WinME (generally considered the worst mistake MickeyMouse ever made - 'til now), and Office 2007 is even more f****d up than Vista.

(Note: some personal opinion expressed immediately above.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 04:11 PM

I agree there on WinME I have it on my computer at work, and have disliked it from the start. (its constantly asking me to upgrade Acrobat but the latest version doesnt support winme)

when I first got DSl at home there were various contract options
ie cheaper rate depending on how long we sign up.. it worked out ok but Id definitely not commit to anything more than 2 years now..

right now we pay apx $85 Canadian for phone/& highspeed dsl (and I have to say the local provider telus has been good at dealing with any issues)
and probably another $67 for basic satellite tv.. (except I hate those system access fees & long distance charges (even though there are no long distance calls)
so if some system comes along that can replace the satellite or cable/ and internet Id go for it. (I dont watch that much anyway but I hate having to sift a 100 channels of crap to get the one thing I want to see -by the time you find anything worth watching its time to go to bed)

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

Slight thread drift re. previous personal opinion?

Excel 2007. New and improved?

Back on topic - local advertising says I can get cable internet for about $10/month. They REFUSE to say that I have to subscribe to "basic cable plus" for about $69 before I can get the $10 deal on internet cable, even when I've asked specifically; but several people who have signed up for the internet deal confirm that it's a requirement.

"Just sign the contract. We'll explain it to you later."

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 07:22 PM

So, I got word this morning that my broadband Internet will be activated October 1 - IF my DSL modem arrives. Then I have to submit two rebate requests to get my money back for the modem.
Then, if it all works, I'll cancel my Internet phone line and my MSN dialup service, and I'm hoping I can keep my MNS e-mail address.
Keeping my fingers crossed.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe_F
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 08:56 PM

I have had Verizon DSL for almost 3 years now, and found it fast & reliable. It does not officially support my newsreader (Gnus), but in fact Gnus has always worked fine. Just this week my service was interrupted a couple of times because of misbehavior of my computer (it seems that firewalls can sometimes cut you off) and called Verizon's support number, which provided prompt, courteous, and patient help.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Greg B
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 09:11 PM

Joe---

You might find that if you have Verizon DSL, you can't send
outbound email with any From: or Reply To: fields other than
your verizon.net email address. Worse yet, Verizon used to,
and my still, block any attempts to send outgoing email through
any SMTP server other than their own.

That really interferes with doing anything but using a web-based
email client for non-Verizon addresses.

Some providers (like GoDaddy) seem to have SMTP running on an
alternate port, maybe to get around this problem.

Speaking of GoDaddy, it's really cheap to register your own
domain and set up email for yourself there. JoeOffer.com is
available. Like 7 bucks a year to register it. Then you could
be '[e-mail]' forever. Really easy for everyone to
remember. GoDaddy also has really good virus and SPAM blocking.

Provided Verizon doesn't lay down in the road regarding your
ability to do SMTP (check with their tech support) it should
be good.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:03 PM

Mr. Offer

ATT will provide every need.

Contact them.

I had an old (poor connection) lead into my junction box. They replaced from the pole to the house....tremdous improvment of a dial-up 56K.

When you first purchase DSL they will request permission to "crawl around inside/under your home" and they will place filters on your phone connections and provide a DSL modum. Normally, the customer is responcible for any problems after the junction-box into the house....but with DSL.... you are a paying customer, subscribing to a new service...they want YOU for a customer past the next decade.

Let them do it.

They CAN do it.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

besides with stock in the company.... a tiny portion of their dividends will eventualy roll into Max's account.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:06 AM

I haven't tried the "stockholder" ploy in dealing with AT&T yet, garg. I should, since I've lost of good amount of money in my AT&T investment over the last 15 years. Cingular still owes me a $30 rebate from two years ago. Now that they're wholly owned by AT&T, I'm tempted to contact stockholder relations and see if they'll help me as a stockholder even though Cingular didn't even respond to my customer letter.
Greg B: I have AT&T - Verizon is about half a mile from me, and seems to be much more expensive for both phone and Internet service. My phone line is $17.60 a month, and DSL will be $19.95 (there's a slower DSL for $14.95).
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Greg B
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:14 PM

I don't think AT&T blocks any outgoing SMTP, but you might
call their tech support to be sure.

Those are good prices--- it's getting to where you can get DSL
on your primary phone line for about what it costs to have a
second line to support 56K dial-up! And that includes the
service!

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Greg B
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:18 PM

Just as a point of information, by the way: when you have
multiple companies offering DSL to you they are doing it
one of three ways:

1. They're your local carrier; it'll come from the local CO (central
   office)
2. They're another carrier who lease (as is their right) rack space
   and backbone connectivity from your local carrier in a CO (may
   may not be your nearest) to put in their own DSL switching unit
   (DSLAM)
3. They're a carrier that sub-contracts with (1) or (2) and either
   just re-brands the service or in some cases bridges with (1) or (2)
   to get you to their network

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:09 PM

You might find that if you have Verizon DSL, you can't send
outbound email with any From: or Reply To: fields other than
your verizon.net email address.

I don't see how they can prevent it.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 09:10 PM

I have never been tempted to do any of those things that Verizon wickedly forbids me to do, possibly because I don't know what they are. I'll have to ask my buddy Moby Jim, Knower of Things.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 03:40 PM

Joe, just call them up--the AT&T, not my fave company but it is best to deal directly with those that run the infrastructure--and ask them what that message meant and whether its a condition that they will be fixing in the near future. You probably won't get this info from the DSL help desk, but ATT should have an office that deals specifically with configuring lines for DSL. (Bell Canada does; when I was a DSL help-desk tech, we really didn't know shit about all those mysterious conditions that can prevent DSL working in a particular location, we just referred those questions to the Bell High Speed Office. But this does not mean we didn't know how to fix problems if given a chance; I take exception to some of the pejorative comments about helpdesk--but you never know if you're going to get a rookie or a veteran at first-level tech support).

The answer to your question "why can't I get DSL if it is available in my area" is that it has to be both provided in your area, and the configuration of lines from the CO into your house, and inside your house, has to be acceptable. This varies according to distance, what else is on the lines, and the age and condition of the lines.   

Seriously, if choosing between DSL and cable service, take whichever one you can get. If it has problems for the get-go, try the other.   

Also--SRS is essentially mixed up about filters and lines. There's no reason at all to have a dedicated line for DSL--it's whole point is that it works fine on the same line you use for voice phone. You filter the voice phones NOT the DSL connection. The filters may prevent some noise on the phone line, but are 100% necessary for the DSL modem to sync to the network.

Finally, my experience is that since my ISP provides the DSL modem, it is their responsibility to replace it when a thunderstorm blows it up. I had a new one within 24 hours of phoning them. Their nickel. (And you're not supposed to run it through a surge protector)

Finally, if you do get DSL, don't get sucked into paying extra for them to install it. It's a simple procedure if you follow the instructions and you can call the helpdesk if you get stuck. This is something they DO know about.

Good luck.

W-O

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 03:57 AM

Well, AT&T now says I'm good to go. They tested my line again and found it worked fine. I'm glad I was persistent. Now, all I have to do is wait for UPS to deliver my DSL modem...

-Joe-

I found a lot of worthwhile information at http://www.dslreports.com/.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 03:58 PM

It was supposed to be operational by 8 PM October 1. I had everything set up by then, but the lights on the modem shone red - and they were still red first thing this morning.

Then about 10 AM, the lights turned green, and I was able to log on. I still have some e-mail and wireless network setup issues to resolve, but the service is working very well. And yes, it's fast.

In general, I think I'd advise people to do the setup themselves. It was mostly a matter of plugging a couple of cables in.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Greg B
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 04:30 PM

If you want to see how fast you're going, go to www.testmyspeed.com

Choose the SpeakEasy test sites--- they seem to have the most
reliable tests.

A good thing to do periodically--- DSL modems 'fall back' to
slower speeds if they perceive a crappy connection, even for
a moment. They don't 'jump back forward' so re-starting the
DSL modem can sometimes recover a situation where you fell back
because of line noise that occurred for ten seconds a week ago.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 06:36 PM

wonderful, Joe! It is like taking off lead-weighted shoes when stuff work fast! Hope it all keeps working right!

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 12:48 PM

Gargoyle suggests:

When you first purchase DSL they will request permission to "crawl around inside/under your home" and they will place filters on your phone connections and provide a DSL modum. Normally, the customer is responcible for any problems after the junction-box into the house....but with DSL.... you are a paying customer, subscribing to a new service...they want YOU for a customer past the next decade.

It may be different in other areas, but here, letting them "crawl around" is an additional $160 charge - to have them "knock on your door" - with unspecified additional charges if anything past the point of entry of the line needs to be fixed.

Questions Joe O indicated about having email from an existing account accessible or forwarded are at least partly addressed at the AT&T Help Site which I finally managed to dig out¹. There are a lot of links on this page, and it may be necessary to search through several. I found a lot of information there when I first got there, but they now insist that I log in before letting me see anything. The page may be different for "subscribers" than for non-users, and they've cut me off for now. (See subsequent posts, maybe.)

I can't be positive that it will give the complete answer, but How to check external email accounts with AT&T Yahoo! Mail may be a place to start. (This link still works for me.)

There also is an article at How to set up an additional Email account that quite probably will be of interest. (I can still access this one, too.)

¹ This link may have been suggested by someone here, but I got so excited when I finally found it that I didn't record how I got there. If so, thanks. It was been most useful, even if they won't let me in again now.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 01:05 PM

Those who still haven't made a choice among high-speed services might be interested in a PC Magazine Reader Survey that provides some information on service, ease of use, customer support satisfaction, and other trivea on a number of items. It was published in two separate issues.

Cell Phone Svcs, Cell Phones, HDTVs, MP3 Players, ISPs, VoIP, Digital Cameras was apparently the second issue. There should be an "index" at the left of the page so you can jump to the section of interest. There are downloadable "spreadsheets" that summarize some of the information, but they're in the "new .XLS" format that you may need the Microsoft "translator" for if you have an older Office(?).

For completeness, the first issue apparently was Desktops, Laptops, Printers

The comment on ISPs that I found most interesting was perhaps the note that DSL users had a somewhat lower incidence of needing support services, indicating somewhat/slightly better reliability of connection than for cable services. The difference might not be enough to swing a decision; but it might be worth knowing what to expect(?).

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 02:18 PM

Thanks to the help site noted above, and Joe O's endorsement (if he can do it anybody can?) I resumed my three-year old attempt to find enough information to decide whether I can afford an AT&T DSL hookup.

After surveying the help site and finding some of the information I needed, I launched a "chat session" with an AT&T technical support specialist, who provided lots of "assurances" but very little "tech information." He was a really friendly guy, and at least typed in English without an accent; and he did clarify a couple of items - sort of.

[A "measure of competence" for AT&T is that there is NO WAY to make a record of their chats except by cut and paste while the chat is open. Competent support site invariably insist on emailing a transcript.]

I proceeded directly to the "sign up" web site. The site insisted that my "service" would be "turned on" on Tuesday, 11 DEC, despite not being able to provide the required modem until at least 12 DEC - or later depending on the shipper. After spending about 20 minutes setting up my order, I received:

"We're sorry. Due to a system issue, We're unable to process your order online. To complete your order, call us at 1-877-722-3755 (Monday through Friday, 7 am to 9 pm and on Saturday 8 am to 5 pm) Error Code: 111."

[Note: what time zone is this 877 number in, where it's open 7 am to 9 pm? It matters a lot with many 8xx numbers, and a competent webmeister would make sure it's noted - but not AT&T's.]

Since I was busy with some other things, I did not call the 877 number until Monday, 10 DEC, where, when I cited the error code given I got "what's an error code?." The sales rep was friendly but aggressively "pushy" about making sure that I placed the order. I had to demand the modem rebate that was part of the web signup package, but it was eventually included. I signed up for service to begin on Friday 14 DEC, even though that still would be before I could expect to receive a modem and would "pressure me" to make other system changes I need before I can complete the hookup.

On Tuesday morning, at 07:58 (I had just gone to bed at 06:00) I received a call from AT&T requesting my response to a "Customer Satisfaction Survey" on my phone call to Sales. In an attempt to respond in my typical sweet and cooperative manner, I answered the first two questions. Unfortunately, I was not able to give a "Press 1 if the service was outstandingly excellent" since the Sales rep to whom I was referred did NOT KNOW why I was unable to complete my web order. (The second question was about "technically knowledgeable," and even at that I gave her a "2.")

I was immediately informed that "If you press any response but "1" we will ask you many additional interminably inane and repetitive meaningless questions" - which the "syn-voice" then proceeded to launch. The voice was unintelligible, forcing me to wait for a repeat on several instances, and responses that I entered were "dropped" several times resulting in additional repeats. I terminated the connection after about 9 minutes.

The same day, Tuesday 11 DEC, at precisely 9:06 PM (an hour after I went to bed early since I'd only had an hour sleep to previous "night" due to the Customer Satisfaction survey) I received an automated voice call informing me that my service has been connected. I still had no modem, but the message insisted that I should "be sure to remain online for the next 10 days so we can adjust your line quality for the best possible service."

Note that according to the signup by telephone, I can't expect to receive a modem for at least another two days, with estimated most probable delivery three days hence.

On Wednesday morning, following a reboot, I found my computer attempting to create a new network bridge and "unable to find the server." Could that be because there was no modem to connect to the server? My existing dial-up connection also was "trashed" requiring reset on three computers to get back on the web.

Also, on Wednesday, I received a modem from AT&T. The "connection" and modem delivery could only have come from the web order which was "terminated" by AT&T without being completed, leaving the possibility that they had recorded TWO separate orders from me.

A call to AT&T gave me the information that "that's not what the phone call about the connection said" - despite verification from LiK who had picked up the phone at about the same time I answered, that it WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE MESSAGE SAID. AT&T insisted that I "will not be connected until FRIDAY." When I remarked that I really would prefer some additional time to set up my home system, it was agreed that they WILL NOT CONNECT ME until 21 DEC.

In the meantime, I still am getting interference from the DSL connection - with my dial-up, requiring ISP reset every time I reboot, and I have been blocked from accessing the "AT&T Help" website until I enter my "provider domain" - which I will not know until I have completed the installation and hookup.

But on the bright side, I have completed an almost complete recovery from two hard drive failures in the past month, one of the hard drives is in the mail for warranty replacement, and most of the family is almost recovered from the flu that hit us all last week. So what's an idiot or two to deal with?

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 10:10 PM

Oh....mercy! John, that is so...so.....(can't think of a word safe for public forum)... I had my own problems when I got cable, but they were minor compared to that. (The technician was competent, but my old WIN98 PC would not accept a cable modem...BIOS conflict or something. That got us to get a new PC and all was well)

I do hope the real installation actually works and that you can typ a happy post soon!

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 11:48 PM

Well now Bill -

I learned early this morning that the only accessible phone jack, which we have used for our second line dedicated to the dial-up connection, was never connected for the main line that I need to use for the DSL.

Since the missing connection is in the AT&T sealed box outside on the side of the house (and this is the ONLY jack on one line exiting the box) I'm reluctant to break the seal to fix the phone company's error done at the time of installation (possibly 15 years ago?).

Thinking that all I needed to do was to call for service, I picked up the phone. After wading through "automatic answering services for a little over a half hour, and finding NO WAY TO REPORT A DEFECT IN THE OUTSIDE CONNECTION, I gave up and went to the web site (att.com/repair) that they recommended, where I found that I can't access anything without a login.

Since I had never created a web account, I went to the "register" site, which prompty disconnected me - three consecutive times.

When I finally got "into" the web site where I was to register, I very carefully answered all their questions EXACTLY as requested, and was told FIVE times in a row that "there has been an error."

I finally found a "contact us" link, but you are only allowed to ask questions from a "canned list" of problems, none of which were applicable. Choosing the closest subject that might be remotely connected to my problem, I submitted an email, to which I got an immediate AUTOMATED reply - please submit another email. Your message was rejected by our filters. (I must have asked the wrong question?).

Returning to the web, and attempting again to "register" so that I could log in to the online repair service, I finally managed to "get in" and received a confirmation that an "Account Identification Number" had been assigned, and that I would be informed "within ten minutes" by telephone of the assigned number. It was DEMANDED that I stay adjacent to the phone until the number was received.

TWO HOURS AND FORTY MINUTES LATER I finally received their call - and a duplicate call approximately 30 minutes after that.

I was able finally to create an "online account" where I learned that the online repair service is EXACTLY LIKE the automated phone connection. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO INFORM AT&T THAT THEIR OWN EQUIPMENT HAS A PROBLEM, by telephone or on their web site.

They did offer to send a repairman out if I would guarantee payment of a $30 to $60 "per call" flat fee (to be determined later) plus $99/hour for any repairs needed - apparently without regard to whether it's their equipment or mine.

About nine hours down, nothing accomplished, and they still haven't answered the second or third emails, both of which I sent over 5 hours ago.

MSN and dial-up is beginning to look not quite so bad - by comparison - as I'd thought the last dozen or so times they've f***d us up.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 12:42 AM

John, Have you ever thought of rewriting Catch 22 and publishing it?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 12:59 AM

McGrath, I'd guess there is a line sharing device (DACS).

BT would have to remove that but apply for adsl and you should be OK. We were - although not when we tried with BT. They kept fobbing us off about distance. Trying another co worked though.

btw, I only found out about ours when a BT engineer was doing some tests and I commented I'd noticed our dial up had speeded up. He told me why.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:36 AM

Jon -

I wish you'd quite bragging about how you guys have phones that work. It makes those of us less fortunate really feel abused.

Later development:

By dialing "O" for the operator, and explaining that I'd wasted 9 hours today trying to contact AT&T, after about a 5 minute wait the operator was able to connect me to a (((PERSON!!))). The person unfortunately couldn't do anything for me due to the time of day (everything in Kansas closes a sundown, and days are short now) - but did give me the surreptitious bit of information that ONE of the 3 Customer Support phone numbers that I have actually will (usually - but not always) connect you to a Customer Support Person if you wait out the automated system. She estimated five to ten minutes before the auto mode gives up. I think she's optimistic.

I didn't try them yet, since they also will be unable to do anything until "business hours," but probably will try it tomorrow (oops, that's later today I guess, since it's 01:30 now here).

She also provided a Tech Support number, with the same "wait until it times out" instruction. She argued with me about whether I could make a DSL connection through a 2-line jack, and her arguments were not convincing, so I did call the tech support number. The time-out wait was 14 minutes (this time). The support guy at first attempted to evade the question by making excuses about "not being business hours so he couldn't get help to solve my problem." I hope he wasn't offended when I said "I don't expect you to solve the problem, I just want an answer to my question." He did confirm that a 2-line hookup should work perfectly fine with the DSL connection, and the normal phone filters would be sufficient. I'll have to hook the DSL modem to one jack and the dial-up through a phone filter to a second one crosswired to connect to the other line.

Having searched the homestead for a suitable piece of wire to cross-hook a second jack adjacent to the one already mounted, it appears that I'll have to buy the minimum 50 feet of wire to get the 6 inch piece I need, but I guess I can afford that if I skip my meds for about 3 days (warning tendered - take appropriate heed).

Stay tuned. (I'd say "stay connected" but you'd all laugh at me.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 03:51 AM

I had no problem with AT&T, and the whole DSL installation took me something like an hour - setting up a wireless LAN was a bit more difficult, because two of our coputers weren't wireless.
I suppose it helps that we're a small community, and that the telephone "exchange" is a platform on the side of the road and we can stop and chat with the technicians there while they're working.
I did the setup, but an AT&T technican came out and checked everything over and tested the line speed - for no setup charge.

Guess I was lucky.
I do have to reboot my DSL modem occasionally, but that's no big deal.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 01:21 PM

Obviously Joe O, you're not in Kansas.

(That may not be the whole problem, but I think it's a significant factor.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:36 PM

My father was gen-you-wine "Wichita Lineman". Some of the things he told me about local wiring helped me decide to move to the BIG City.

(I will guarantee that cable installation,(Comcast, in my case) *IF* you had cable, is easier. Verizon has been inundating us with pleas to sign up for their DSL or FIOS. It has take almost as much effort to convince them to STOP as it has for you to get any sense out of AT&T....(no..scratch that. Nothing I have ever gone thru compares to the stories you relate)

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:38 PM

Another 45 minutes on the phone, with "repair service" person who insisted that what I need is the exact opposite of what I asked about, and insists it will cost me a minimum of $249 for them to send someone out to confirm that she's completely wrong.

While the article doesn't help much with solving my most recent problems, I though it might be of interest for folks to see an opinion from the one other (thus far identified) phone-associated person who is not a TOTAL IDIOT.

At How do i...Connect a Second Phone Line?, which you may consult, although it's not really necessary:

"The first step is to perform a bit of what we call "Telephonic Archeology" by examining your present wiring to try to determine what goes where.

"Go around the house with a small straight screwdriver and "pull" all the phone jacks. For surface mount boxes, remove the single screw and gently pull the cover away. For jacks that are built-in to the wall, remove the two visible screws and gently pull the wallplate away from the wall until you can see how the wires are connected behind the plate.

"If you are being watched, stare intently at all these wires, rub your chin, and nod knowingly (this is very important). You may do this for an extended period if you wish. Congratulations...you've just done exactly what the telephone installer gets paid $200 for. "

Yep, Yessiree, You Betcha.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:51 PM

Bill D -

The big problem with cable is that in my area you MUST SUBSCRIBE to cable TV service before you can get the cable internet connection. This is something that the cable services REFUSE TO TELL YOU until the come out to install; but has been verified by several people I know who have cable internet.

I do not have, and do not want, cable TV. I should not have to pay $49 per month (the cheapest TV plan I've found, and which would give me NO USEFUL CHANNELS) in order to get an internet connection for "only $24.95 per month." Failure to reveal this "condition" is just false advertising. REFUSAL to admit it until they have your deposit is outright fraud.

Reports here also continue to be that while cable downloads are fast, uploads are no better than - and may be slower than - dialup. Most satellite systems seem to have the same one-way feature. The situation may be different, for either or both, elsewhere.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 03:12 PM

*sigh*...more 'local' crap, John. My Comcast installation does allow 'either/or' TV & Internet, though they give you a 'bundled' discount if you take both...and even more if you let them be your phone company, also.
Interestingly, we do have AT&T for phone, and seem to have a decent connection...and to my everlasting relief, we bought a service contract when we moved in: and it has paid for itself a couple of times! Had a technician wander around our house for 3 hours once, looking for a short of some kind...(took 1 minute to fix, once it was located in a false ceiling)...no cost!) (This house is all concrete block and poured concrete floors...no wire can be run directly anywhere! Stuff goes thru attic, false ceilings, along baseboards...etc.)

Well, we are going out to a nice holiday dinner with friends...I'll leave you to contemplate whatever Karma you collected to be entitled to such fun!

Take care....

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 03:42 PM

I'm seriously jealous of Jeff/Pene Azul - he has fiber optics that go all the way to the back end of his computer. Can't get no better than that, but I have to say my DSL ain't bad.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 05:54 PM

Well guys and gals, I did get a reply from the email(s) I sent to the web "repair guys." The email came in while I was out searching for parts that I expect to need to create my own phone system.

When I arrived home, LiK was on the phone with the guy who sent the email, who was apparently concerned that I hadn't repplied to say "I was all wrong and I'm ecstatically happy with AT&T." It took them almost a full day to reply, but I only get an hour.

In the email, and on the phone, he misquoted my statement of what needed to be fixed, showing quite clearly a total lack of comprehension of how a telephone circuit is wired up. He continued the argument that AT&T can't fix anything unless I sign up to pay them the service fee (~$250) whether they fix anything or not.

He also made it abundantly clear that he has a list of problems you are permitted to have, and my problem isn't on their list. He did assure me that he'll have his service guy make up a problem that is on their list if one has to come out, so they'll be able to charge me their fee.

I can't cancel the DSL order until business hours on Monday, so I guess I can think things over for a few hours. I just wonder if I might be able to find anyone at AT&T who understands how to do it.

Probably not.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 06:18 PM

I suppose that I shouldn't mention that it took me exactly ten minutes to plug my Earthlink DSL into my Qwest landline, and that I have had exactly no problems in the six years it has been set up...

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 07:33 PM

artbrooks -

See, the difference is you didn't have to call them about anything.

My problem (the big one) is that I stupidly thought I need to call, but when I called I found out that you're not permitted to do that. Then I did the seriously unacceptable thing - and asked tham about something that wasn't on their list.

The user survey up at the top of the 2d 50 in this thread can be read to indicate that providers that give the most satisfaction to those who have no problems may also be among the less responsive when problems do come up. (Not just for 'phones, but it's a possible, maybe even plausible, interpretation for several of the items - for some suppliers.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 06:32 PM

I've just switched from dial-up to broadband. I'm on AOL and now their broadband service, here in the UK, is cheaper than dial-up.

The biggest problem was with British Telecom (BT) - our very wonderful national telephone company. They were supposed to convert my line to ... something ...? What they managed to do was to divert all my telephone calls to some poor old lady up the road! I rang them (on my neighbours phone), spent several millenia navigating their extra-specially wonderful, automated 'customer-torture-service' and eventually got through to some clueless article who informed me that they would have to charge me £116 to send out an engineer. I then persuaded several friends to ring my number and then to report a fault to BT (I felt a bit sorry for the elderly lady - but I hope that she reported the fault too!).
After a suitable interval I rang BT again, spent several more millenia on the 'rack', and eventually got through to a human. This one was considerably less gormless than the previous one and said that she would send an engineer.
The engineer duly arrived, said, "it's all our fault, you won't be charged" and fixed the fault.
A couple of days later a CD, a modem, some filters and a few cables arrived from AOL. I loaded the CD, plugged in the modem and filters ... and it all worked first time! No-one was more surprised than me!! It's really, really good ... what more can I say?

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 04:35 PM

A brief update on the battle with AT&T:

After telling me that my web order could not be completed, I postponed placing the order by telephone for about a week.

The day after I placed the phone order, I received an automated phone call from AT&T informing me that my DSL had been "activated." My regular dial-up connection turned to bovine excrement and had to be reset.

A phone call to the 'phone order guys elicited the information that the order I had placed by telephone was the only one that existed. They called me a liar for saing that AT&T had called to say the service had been connected. (LiK also had picked up the phone when it rang, so both of us heard the message.)

The next day, I received the modem - per the web order that was never placed. Based on the telephone order I wasn't supposed to get it for another week. The DSL on my line was of course turned back off. ...

In the course of all this, the "scheduled turnon date" was changed four times, with two of the "changes" being discovered only when I called them about something else. (I didn't get any help with the "something else" with any of those calls.)

As soon as the web order was attempted, my access to the "support(?)" website was blocked, requiring registration - which required knowing my account information, which of course I wouldn't know until the service was actually turned on and connected so I could register it.

A week of attempting to get to someone at land-line support/repair/maintenance/accounting/ ... ... etc got me nothing but "we don't answer questions until you pay $300 to have one of our guys come out." I now have four separate phone numbers I can call to get no help from AT&T; but that's about all I accomplished trying to communicate with them.

Detailed tracing of the wiring into my home, at the point-of-entry (POE in the web info, but SI - apparently for "service interface" at the phone office) showed that the lines to the interface were crosswired on "their side of the connection." It did require some "compensating patches" in my house wiring.

In tracing the house wiring, I found that there had been a "broken wire" somewhere that was fixed "somewhere" by cross-wiring so that the green wire going in one end came out yellow on the other end on one run, and another went in black and came out blue with a white stripe. As so far as I know, the prior owner did not do most of the phone wiring so he probably paid the $300 to have the phone guys make these "repairs." (green to black, white with blue or orange stripes, or red to yellow, or to blue or orange with white stripes are "acceptable" per wiring standards. These two "changes" crossed the color codes for line and return on the same wire.)

Because of an apparent short-circuit in one of the internal wire runs, I wasn't able to just hook two lines to that run, so I did finally run a new drop to the location where I can connect to the computers.

Once I had a line to connect to - on our primary phone number where the DSL was, eventually, turned on, I found that the "instructions" received with the new modem were WRONG. If the instructions were followed, connection WOULD ALWAYS BE IMPOSSIBLE. Three hours on the phone with one of their "support guys" got me transferred "to a higher level" where I eventually got one of the computers connected. (The first guy made a valiant attempt to be helpful, but didn't know how. The "higher level" person apparently was more skilled, but mumbled a lot (I think she was eating lunch?) so it took "only" abot two hours on the phone at second echelon to get one machine up. I've really got to get me a hands-free phone!!!!)

Since getting machine 1 (not the one I wanted) connected required making a direct machine-modem hookup, a couple of hours trying to reinsert either the new router or my previous Ethernet switch showed an "absence of required information" that the DSL provider was supposed to have given me and didn't to set up the router, and reinstalling the switch still left only one machine able to get to the web.

Another phone call back to support - which can ONLY be reached by "not saying anything" for about 4 minutes (average - standard deviation +/- 7 minutes) until the automated "please press one if your question is this one on our list" times out.

A little less than an hour for "support" to discover that an incorrect protocol setting from the instructions that came with the modem was "part of the problem." After that correction, I now have three desktops all online with a DSL connection - but still have NO COMMUNICATION on my local network to let the machines talk to each other. That also means that one of the machines cannot access any of our four printers, and another has only the one printer that's on USB direct to that computer. For now, my weekly backups have to be done by copying to a "portable" USB HD for copy to backup via sneaker-net.

Downloads with the DSL hookup are about 5x as fast as with the old dial-up on average, with "peaks" at slightly higher rates; but nothing really up to the advertised speeds. If being able - finally - to check into YouTube is an advantage, I guess it's an improvement. ... (?). (My new connection is signifcantly faster - maybe 2x - than the "high speed" hook up at our main library, where I've gone to download "something really large" a couple of times.)

Still trying to get some help from the router guys. They are very insistent that you correctly specify and select "help" appropriate to your specific model, version, and firmware hardware, but then everything they show me for my HARD WIRED NON-WIRELESS CAPABLE router is "how to set up your wireless network."

I may have to get on the phone I guess ...

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 06:09 PM

*shaking my head in awe*

Well, it is, as they say, progress. The router/network set-up ought to be a piece of cake after all the other stuff...but who knows?

(no one seems to believe that anyone STILL might want something other than a wireless network, but *I* will want one soon, as I have poured concrete floors with steel beams in them, and signals will have to go at the worst possible angle, so I am looking at one of those network-thru-the-house wiring deals.)

Good luck John...you're a better man than I, as I would NEVER have lasted thru all those phone calls with idiots!

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 07:12 PM

Bill D

Fortunately I have lots of experience. My prior life as an engineer at Enormous Airplane Co put me in contact with a whole lot of "middle-managers."

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:50 PM

JiK

I do assume that was a typo - from my own experience, surely you meant "muddle-managers"?

:-)

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 07:37 AM

They don't call it "supervisor tape" for no good reason, Fooles.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 05:47 PM

G'day John,
I can see how you acquired your prodigious attention to detail.
You really ought to write a book.

Have a good time over the next few days' celebrations.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,Homey
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 11:49 AM

Recently I got DSL from Verizon for $14.99 per month. After cancelling dialup and a second phone line. I came out ahead.

It was not just an introductory price but a forever price.

Installation was easy. The modem has an HTML interface that you address whit http://xxx.xxx.xxx.

I used the install CD they sent but when I got to the part where it said I need to install somee software, I stopped, called up support and demanded to know what the software was and what it did. They would not say except that it was necessary. I persisted until I got to a guy in India who could speak decent English. He stepped me through setting up a user name and password that reside in the modem without installing any software

The "necessary" software is spyware and toolbars from Google or Yahoo.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 12:49 PM

Verizon here (maybe elswhere) is pulling out all the stops. They are offering internet, phone and TV for $99 a month for 2 years...AND giving away a 17" digital HD TV set to boot!

Why, I contemplated that for almost 14 seconds.....

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 05:59 PM

I haven't seen it on the web, but an article in my local newsrag was a bit worrisome. They only post stuff on their website for about a week and then you have to pay to see it, so no link, but:

[quote from scan/OCR]

CenturyTel Inc., a Monroe, La., phone company that provides Internet access and long-distance calling services, is facing stiff competition from cell phone companies and cable operators. So to diversify, it's getting into the online-advertising business. And not just any online advertising. The technology it's using could change the way the $16.9 billion Internet ad market works, bringing in a host of new players — and giving consumers fresh concerns about their privacy.

CenturyTel's system allows it to observe and analyze the online activities of its Internet customers, keeping tabs on every Web site they visit. The equipment is made by a Silicon Valley start-up called NebuAd Inc. and installed right into the phone company's network. NebuAd takes the information it collects and offers advertisers the chance to place online ads targeted to individual consumers. NebuAd and CenturyTel get paid whenever a consumer clicks on an ad.

This technique — called behavioral targeting — is far more customized than the current method of selling ads online. Today, it's an imperfect process: companies such as Revenue Science Inc. and Tacoda Inc., which was bought by Time Warner Inc., contract with Web sites to monitor which consumers visit them, attaching "cookies," or small pieces of tracking data, to visitors' hard drives so they are recognized when they return. The targeting firms feed the data to Web site owners, who use it to charge premium rates for customized ads. But the information is limited, since the tracking companies can't monitor all of the sites and individual visits.

The newer form of behavorial targeting involves placing gear called "deep-packet inspection boxes" inside an Internet provider's network of pipes and wires. Instead of observing only a select number of Web sites, these boxes can track all of the sites a consumer visits., and deliver far more detailed information to potential advertisers¹.

Until now, the booming online ad market has been dominated by the likes of Google Inc. and Microsoft Corp. and small techie advertising shops such as Right Media Inc. and AdECN Inc. But new companies are rushing in. Both wireless and wireline Internet-access providers such as CenturyTel, Rochester Telecom Systems Inc. and Embarq Communications Inc., among others, have entered the advertising gold rush. And they've tapped Internet equipment companies like NebuAd, FrontPorch Inc., and Phorm Inc. to provide the gear to help them along.

[end quote]

¹ to potential advertisers ... and to police, government agencies, your current or prospective employer, ex-wives, your health insurance provider, your bank and/or credit bureau(s), your psychiatrist, and/or the private investigator hired by anyone who has a "bad feeling" about you?

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 11:12 PM

George Orwell eat your heart out!

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 04:55 AM

A continuing story ... ... ...

Abandoning, at least temporarily, the attempt to get anything useful from the router guys, I finally found a potentially free support entry at Microsoft. The invitation to submit a problem said "send us an email describing your problem and one of our friendly experts will phone you immediately with a solution."

Needless to say, it didn't work quite like that.

Instead of a phone call to give me a solution I got an email that recommended that I telephone the Network Support Group directly, as my problem was insoluble in the witch-water at the central support site.

A phone call a couple of days later - skipping over making them work on Xmas day - resulted in a FIVE-HOUR phone call during which I gave the "expert" control of my machine and watched as he made confused clicks and typed arcane incantations. At the end of the five hours he promised that he would send an email with a full description of what he had done and how I should proceed.

Unfortunately, he had left my computer on the edge of being inoperable. Even Word wouldn't open normally. The key change that he made was to open Windows "Services Management" console and disable all non-Microsoft services. I had no record of what specific command he'd used to get to that management console; but fortunately the Start|Run box has a drop-down that shows the last 5 commands entered. I was able to pick them up, and one of them worked. Re-enabling the "third party" services brought most of the machine back to life, although there still are a couple of things missing that will probably require individual program remove/reinstall to get back to good shape.

TWO DAYS LATER I received his email "with all the details" that said:

"We are happy that you called on Microsoft Support and we are glad that we solved all our problems. If you uninstall your Antivirus (which he spelled incorrectly) everything will be fine."

Despite having solved absolutely none of my former problems, and having created several new ones that I had to try to figure out how to back out of, on the remote possibility that his suggestion that "Your Firewall is blocking LAN networking" I initiated a "chat session" with Norton support today. The wait for an analyst was just barely an hour, but at least I didn't have to hold a phone up to my ear - just stare at a screen that wasn't doing anything.

The Norton expert once again took control of my desktop, did lots of clicks and typed incantations of which I have NO RECORD, but finally, about 3.5 hours into the chat session, he got into the Network Setup Wizard. I was able to follow what he did there, and at one point he made a selection that - according to all of Microsoft's most detailed instructions - was entirely illogical and inappropriate. It did, however, lead to another selection a couple of clicks later that did look pretty good, and apparently resulted in restoring the LAN connection for the machine he worked, showing connections to most of the expected other machines.

Now my remaining problem is to see if I can remember what he did there, so I can replicate that on the three other computers.

So the Norton guy pretty well proved that it was NOT the antivirus/firewall; but was an error in the Microsoft network setup that the Microsoft third-tier-up expert couldn'tdidn't find.

The Norton guy also made some changes to Norton "policies" on this machine, that may or may not have affected what was accomplished. Once again, I have no record of how he got into the places where the changes were made, but may be able to find my way in if I flounder around in there long enough - if I find that I need those changes on the other machines.

In anticipation of additional support calls, today I got myself a cheap speaker phone (couldn't find a headset phone), and as soon as it gets done with it's intial battery charging cycle I'll turn it on to see if it's suitable to minimize the "flat-ear syndrome" generated by my last call to Microsoft. Then I'll be ready to call ... ... (?).

I still can't ping the print server on my laser printer, but some progress probably was made today on the LAN setup otherwise. It appears that I may need to change the fixed IP address for the printer to get it back into the LAN, but I have to be able to connect to it to change it so I can connect to it. Catch 21.9 strikes again.

The router operates/assigns IPs in a different series than was used by the printer (the printer is in the default range for Microsoft Workgroups), and the router can't reassign the printer because it operates on a fixed address that can only be changed by editing its internal "web page." Hopefully, I can connect to a separate (off-LAN) computer to get in to get the printer's address into the "router compatible" range(?) - if I can decipher what the right range is from the minimalist router user manual.

And life goes on all around me ... ...

John

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 06:19 AM

The router (make/model?) probably allows you to set a range. The addresses on your LAN should be within one of the private IP ranges:

10.0.0.0 - 10.255.255.255
172.16.0.0 - 172.31.255.255
192.168.0.0 - 192.168.255.255
169.254.0.0 -169.254.255.255

I use 192,168.0.1 - 192.168.0.255 which is the default for my Netgear DG834.

If you can't find you router info for some reason, you could try pinging your PCs by name. Also you may have ifconfig, winipcfg or ipconfig - seems Win had different ones on different versions.

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 10:46 AM

*following this saga with a mixture of awe & angst*....angst that this complex a set of problems can be allowed to exist in a system with so few people able to sort it out....and awe that John is able to persevere and follow 'most' of the twists & turns and not give up and sit in the corner, patting an Atari and gibbering.

Well, a feller needs a hobby..........

Subject: RE: Tech: DSL Broadband - what do I need to know?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 11:11 AM

The 192.168.0.x is the range that Windows has used since WWG3.11 for Internet Connection Sharing (ICS). The machine that has the internet connection is automatically 192.168.0.1, and Windows - since way back then - has an extremely rudimentary DNS that assigns numbers to other machines. The ICS hookup is sort of the "basic scheme" for Workgroups - up until Vista.

A common problem with the Windows sytem is that it can use the whole range for the last segment, from 0 - 255, so there's no place to put a device with a fixed IP address where Windows can't assign something else the same address and create a conflict. There NEVER HAS BEEN an official admission by Microsoft that this happens, but one "whitepaper" about half a century ago included a comment by one of Mickey's whiz kids that "higher is safer, stay above 100." (It did help when I moved my printer address up.)

Different router makers use different segments, but the Linksys stuff all uses the 192.168.1.x range, with the top router 192.168.1.1 for the "gateway." I think Linksys puts the "control management" page at 192.168.1.110. They only use part of the range, so there's some range where you can drop a fixed IP device in and not clink. I just have to figure out which end of the range is the safe end.

I have gotten through a second computer, and seem to have gotten it connected to the first one. The change in the "Microsoft network setup" wasn't the only one required though. I did have to back engineer the policy changes the Norton guy made. He created a new "Firewall policy" that allows devices in the 192.168.1.1 thru 192.168.1.255 to access each other for some functions, and sorted all the other rules - which changes their priorities - some rather drastically.

I probably could add another rule to allow traffic to/from the print server that's at 192.168.0.xxx, but I think I'll worry about that when I get the other couple of computers connected.

My next problem is that the two I've got up are using NIS2007 on WinXP Pro. The other WinXP machine is a WinXP Home OS, but has NIS2008 on it, which is a completely reshuffled interface. The fourth machine has NIS2007, but is running Vista which has NO SYSTEM AT ALL for user management of stuff.

John