BS: Should we care about Burmese?

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:03 PM

Satellite photos may prove abuses in Myanmar, researchers say

Story Highlights
Before and after satellite pictures show disappearance of villages, scientists say

Also seen: evidence of forced relocation of villagers, military buildup

"We're watching frm the sky," interest group warns Myanmar junta


   
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Satellite photos showing the disappearance of villages and a buildup of army camps offer what researchers say is potential evidence of human rights abuses in Myanmar, the scene of bloody anti-government protests that have drawn tens of thousands of demonstrators.

At least nine people were killed in Myanmar on Thursday, when soldiers with automatic rifles fired into the crowds. Troops in riot gear also raided Buddhist monasteries on the outskirts of Yangon and beat and arrested dozens of monks, according to witnesses and Western diplomats.

The government said 10 people have been killed since the violence began earlier this week, but British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said he believed the loss of life in Myanmar was "far greater" than is being reported.

Myanmar, also known as Burma, has become the focus of international pressure to curtail the violent repression of its citizens.

"We are trying to send a message to the military junta that we are watching from the sky," Aung Din, policy director for the interest group U.S. Campaign for Burma, said Friday at a briefing on the photos.

The American Association for the Advancement of Science said it has compiled satellite images that provide evidence of village destruction, forced relocations and a growing military presence at sites across eastern Myanmar.

Lars Bromley, director of the AAAS Geospatial Technologies and Human Rights project, said he had received more than 70 reports of rights violations. He then sought before-and-after satellite photos of the regions from commercial firms.

"Physical evidence of reported attacks on civilians sometimes can be subtle compared to the slash-and-burn types of destruction that we saw in Darfur or Zimbabwe. It's also a lush ecosystem where plants can quickly grow to cover burn marks and clouds and terrain often block satellite observation," he said.

Nonetheless, he said he was able to map the locations of 31 of the reported human rights violations.

"Eighteen of the locations showed evidence consistent with destroyed or damaged villages," he said in a statement. "We found evidence of expanded military camps in four other locations as well as multiple possibly relocated villages, and we documented growth in one refugee camp on the Thai border. All of this was very consistent with reporting by multiple human rights groups on the ground in Burma."

"These things are happening over quite a range, it's not just an isolated incident," Bromley said.

"We're not necessarily drawing conclusions about what happened to these villages, that comes from organizations we work with," he explained.

But, for example, there were reports of attacks on villages in April and satellite images showed the blackened remains of burned villages.

In addition, the photos showed several new villages near military camps, suggesting forced relocations.

Bromley said that since the demonstrations began in recent days satellites have been turned toward the major cities, but he noted that this is the cloudy season.

"We are hoping for a gap in the clouds," he said.

Jeremy Woodrum, director of U.S. Campaign for Burma, said he considers the images good evidence of abuses.

"When you consider that a million and a half people have fled out of the area, I think it's pretty clear," he said. "Especially when combined with dozens and dozens of reports from human rights organizations."

Satellite images showed multiple burn scars in otherwise thick green forest in the Papun district, and before and after images showed the removal of structures, consistent with eyewitness reports of village destruction.

Signs of an expanded military presence, such as the buildup of bamboo fencing around a camp, and construction of a satellite camp, also were identified, Bromley said.

Buildup of military camps and disappearance of villages and buildings were also documented in the Toungoo and Dooplaya districts.

The military took control of Myanmar in 1962 and since then has regularly clashed with pro-democracy groups. Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung San Suu Kyi, a democracy advocate, has been detained by the military for years.

The current crisis began August 19 with rallies against a fuel price hike. It escalated when monks began joining the protests.

President Bush announced economic sanctions against Myanmar on Thursday, and other countries have also condemned the actions of the Yangon government.

First lady Laura Bush and Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, have previously condemned human rights violations in Myanmar.


In a plea to Myanmar's ruling military regime, Mrs. Bush said earlier this week, "I want to say to the armed guards and to the soldiers: Don't fire on your people. Don't fire on your neighbors." Her remarks were in a Voice of America interview.

AAAS, a nonprofit general scientific society, previously used satellite technology to seek evidence of destruction in Darfur and Zimbabwe. The latest research was supported by the Open Society Institute and the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 04:30 AM

Always too bloody late.
Action against the regime should have been at least a week ago.
Is there a petition for banning the olympics in China. I would definately sign that.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 04:54 AM

I have applied to start a petition to boycott the Beijing Olympics via the government petitions site at No 10.
I will let you know what happens.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 05:03 AM

Thanks Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:52 AM

Good move on the Olympics - the western desire to lick the arse of the world's most brutal and repressive regieme for a few quid is the single most sickening issue of our time.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:56 AM

That's what happens when you squander all your own resources, and become reliant on those of others mate.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:21 AM

"...all Buddhist males have to spend at least 2 years as a monk before becoming an adult, and many adults go in and out of monkeries."

                     Yikes - With an indoctrination program like that, how would you ever get them to come around to deal with reality?

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 12:05 PM

Bastards.

My e-mails to various government departments and ministeries in Burma were returned as "undeliverable". FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 12:11 PM

"With an indoctrination program like that, how would you ever get them to come around to deal with reality?"

Being a buddhist is about addressing reality at it's most fundamental level of perception - Tibetan and Zen monks undergo a far longer training period. You have to remember buddhism is a religion where you are encouraged to rigorously question down to the very basic levels their religious doctrines. The idea is you take no-one's word for anything but find out for yourself.

In this context it's not so difficult to understand the reason the monks lead the protests. There is not some religious agenda motivating them, but a compassion for all the beings that are cause suffering - in this case by by the Junta - they are simply trying to improve the lot of everyone in Burma. The genuinely care for all the people without exception regardless of their own religious convictions. The Jewish-Christian-Muslim religions could learn a lot from their buddhist contemporaries about tolerance, understanding and peaceful protest.

Of course, the Junta's biggest buddies the Chinese hate with a passion anyone who thinks for themselves hence their ongoing persecution of innocent Tibetan buddhist monks and institutions elsewhere on the continent - they even kidnap their Lamas and replace them with their own puppet leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 04:30 PM

This is what I have submitted for consideration as a petition on the No 10 petitions web site.






Your petition reads:

    We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Boycott the
    Beijing Olympics

    Unless the Chinese government, which has a greater external
    influence in Burma, than any other country, puts pressure on
    the illegal Burmese Junta to restore democracy to that country.
    We should boycott the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games.

    Thank you for submitting your petition.

    [ This email has been automatically sent by the Number 10
    petitions system ]

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 04:51 PM

"A Canadian Labour Congress statement
We need strong Canadian voices on the side of the people in Burma
Ken Georgetti – 28 September 2007

The people of Burma need our vocal and active solidarity. If the demonstrations were triggered by a rise in fuel prices that has left this oil-importing nation devastated, they mostly express a collective frustration with the junta's continued refusal to respond to the cares of its own people.
Over the last eighteen years the Canadian Labour Congress has worked closely with our colleagues from the Federation of Trade Unions of Burma and the National Coalition of the Union of Burma. We have condemned the repeated and systematic violations of workers and human rights committed by the military junta in Burma, particularly the use of forced labour. We have called for an end to this criminal policy. With the generous support of a number of our affiliated unions, we have supported FTUB activities inside Burma in the border area and have been involved with union training on human and workers' rights issues.

The military junta has made Burma the only country ever to be expelled from the International Labour Organization because of its responsibility in the ongoing use of forced labour; a practice that the ILO equates to a crime against humanity. Indeed this military has closed and isolated the country with complete disregard for no less than twenty-eight UN General Assembly and Commission on Human Rights resolutions calling for national reconciliation and an end to the crisis.

In Canada, Parliament, unanimously passed a motion in May 2005 in support of comprehensive economic measures against the military regime. The government has not gone beyond statements discouraging Canadians to do business there.

While the Canadian Labour Congress acknowledges what has been done in Parliament and the steps taken by the government, we much deplore the lack of vigour in preventing the continuous presence in Burma of a number of high- profile Canadian corporations. Their activities there only feed the military regime and aggravate the people's poverty.

There is urgency for strong voices on the side of the people in Burma. Today, as Canadians, we must call for peace and democracy in Burma if we want to remain credible when we make the same call anywhere else."

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 04:55 PM

Canadians can e-mail Prime Minister Stephen Harper at

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 05:35 PM

"Russia is, like China, a veto-wielding UN Security Council member and has shown growing interest in energy cooperation with Burma. China, the main backer of Burma's military government, has flatly ruled out backing sanctions."

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 01:35 PM

"Being a buddhist is about addressing reality at it's most fundamental level of perception... The idea is you take no-one's word for anything but find out for yourself."


                   You'd have to wonder why they'd shave their heads and dress up in orange sheets to do this.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: redsnapper
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 01:50 PM

Riginslinger,

That is the custom of Buddhist monks in many countries. Same as some Jews, Moslems, Christians and others have their dress practices.

The vast majority of lay Buddhists have no such dress code (likewise lay practicioners of other beliefs and practices).

I am curious as to why you are making these remarks/questions.

RS

Subject: BS: stand with the Burmese people!
From: Tyke
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 08:14 PM

Hi, have you heard about the crisis in Burma?

Burma is ruled by one of the worst military dictatorships in the world. This week Buddhist monks and nuns began marching and chanting prayers to call for democracy. The protests spread and hundreds of thousands of Burmese people joined in -- they've been brutally attacked by the military regime, but still the protests are spreading.

I just signed a petition calling on Burma's powerful ally China and the UN security council to step in and pressure Burma's rulers to stop the killing. The petition has exploded to over 200,000 signatures in a few days and is being advertised in newspapers around the world, delivered to the UN secretary general, and broadcast to the Burmese people by radio. We're trying to get to 1 million signatures this week, please sign below and tell everyone!

http://www.avaaz.org/en/stand_with_burma/
        
Thank you for your help!
George Clarke

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 08:23 PM

Peace, my emails don't return saying they are undeliverable. They claim that there is a 'syntax problem', even though I looked up the Myanmar website and your addresses are correct, as given there.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 08:45 PM

10 THINGS YOU CAN DO TO HELP THE PROTESTERS

1 - PROTEST- Look below in "Recent news" for details of worldwide protests.

2 - SPREAD THE WORD- Invite your friends to this group, email all your family and friends, write to local newspapers

3 - CONTACT YOUR ELECTED OFFICIAL- they will respond if enough people contact them.

4 - EMAIL COMPANIES STILL IN BURMA their email addresses are listed here http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24957770200&topic=3071

5 - SIGN A PETITION there are lots listed here
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24957770200&topic=3175

6 - KEEP UP TO DATE -READ SOME BLOGS/WEBSITES We've compiled some great resources http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24957770200&topic=3231

7. EMAIL YOUR NATION'S EMBASSY IN BURMA, asking them to open up their WiFi networks for our contacts to utilize. We've had reports that the internet is down to keep reports and pictures IN Burma, we need to do everything we can to make sure they get OUT. Your embassy's contact info will be on your country's ministry/department of foreign affairs webpage. http://www.alloexpat.com/myanmar_expat_forum/foreign-embassy-in-myanmar-directory-t5.html

8 - CONTACT EXTERNAL MEDIA. If you have any updates pass them to the press via details listed here http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24957770200&topic=3232

9 - BOYCOTT CHINA - Think about boycotting Chinese goods. http://leedsac.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24957770200&topic=3223

10 - BROWSE THIS SITE At the bottom of the page is the constantly updating wall with up to the minute news on protests and what is happening in Burma.
__________________________
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=24957770200

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 09:02 PM

Intriguing thought about boycotting Chinese products. Gives me an idea.

A Walmart opened here in Juneau Alaska this month. I haven't shopped there but it would be an interesting endeavor to create a picketing sign exhorting a boycott of China-made items along with information about Burma, and parade around. Probably get arrested - but might be worth trying. I'll give it some thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: pdq
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 09:06 PM

Burma is an unusual case.The government is accused of favoritism toward the dominant group, a sect of Buddhism. Over 90% of the country is part of that majority religion, yet they are also the protesters.

In Viet Nam, trouble was caused by a Roman Cotholic named Diem who tried to force his religion on the Buddhist majority, but the result was the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 11:08 PM

"I am curious as to why you are making these remarks/questions."

            redsnapper - I guess I see religion as pretty much the root of all evil, and I'm suspicious when somebody says, "No, this religion is good, but I agree with you on all the others."

Subject: RE: BS: stand with the Burmese people!
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 12:01 AM

I hope it helps. Thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: redsnapper
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:05 AM

Riginslinger,

I can understand that view... whether I agree with it or not is immaterial... but how does it apply to this particular situation in Burma? I cannot seem to follow that but perhaps I am missing something.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:08 AM

"You'd have to wonder why they'd shave their heads and dress up in orange sheets to do this."

In many senses buddhism is not a religion in the same sense the other major religions are. They have no one 'god' as such - Buddha was an ordinary man who gained enlightenment and buddhism is about following this path through direct personal experience. It's more of a way of life than a religion in many cases - Zen buddhism is quite remarkable when delved into and is deep whist at the same time being, er, about nothing. Literally.

The monks wear their robes and shave their heads as part of the process of detachment from possessions, and the robes and their food bowl is all they own. This austerity is not seen as a problem, but is desirable as it releases them from worrying about how much stuff they've got and concentrate on developing compassion for all living beings, and a desire to see them released from their suffering.

There is no Western analogy for the place buddhist monks occupy in eastern societies - they are seen as the protectors of the poor and vulnerable and carry a moral authority that simply doesn't exist within our own societies.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: redsnapper
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:16 AM

Being a Buddhist myself stigweard, I'd go even further. In Buddhism there is no God at all. Nor, strictly speaking, is it a religion although usually regarded as such (both in the East and West)... it is more a way of living and practicing one's life. Your description of the robes and shaved heads is spot on for the monks although, of course, most lay Buddhists do not adopt these practices. Also the esteem in which the monks are held in many Eastern societies.

This is why I was asking for clarification as I could not relate the questions being asked to the situation in Burma. To me, the monks actions are the passive resistance I would have expected.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:09 AM

UK Petition to boycott Beijing Olympics for thr benefit of Burma.
Please sign.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 07:30 AM

Done it Giok
It said taht it closed on 27th Sept, but I went for it anyway and it seemed to work and my name is on the list.

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 07:48 AM

"I can understand that view... whether I agree with it or not is immaterial... but how does it apply to this particular situation in Burma?"

                Maybe it doesn't apply to Burma. What I've seen in other parts of the world--Iran is a good example--when represive governments are overthrown by religious movements, they usually end up being more represive than the government they replaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: redsnapper
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 08:01 AM

In that example I can certainly agree with you Riginslinger. While the Shah's regime was pretty repressive the current one is far more so.

Best regards

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 08:09 AM

Just as important take away the massive finance that is the lifeblood of the military rule by putting pressure on the large oil companies.

Downloadable protest letters and petitions to Unocal and Texaco here
Free Burma : No Petrodollars for SLORC

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 08:35 AM

"What I've seen in other parts of the world--Iran is a good example--when represive governments are overthrown by religious movements, they usually end up being more represive than the government they replaced."

You're correct in one sense, but I think you misunderstand the motivation of the monks. Buddhist regimes are not oppressive as the very nature of buddhism is non-violent and compassionate. This is about the monks opening the way for democracy and the rule of law, not military rule and exploitation by it's near and even more oppressive neighbour.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 10:23 AM

"Now comes an unconfirmed report in The Daily Mail in Britain with a staggering claim of mass slaughter. The paper quotes Hla Win, described as a Burmese general who has deserted his post in protest of the regime's harsh tactics.

"Many more people have been killed in recent days than you've heard about," Hla Win said. "The bodies can be counted in several thousand."

Here is some additional detail from General Win, referred to in this passage by his title:

The 42-year-old chief of military intelligence in Rangoon's northern region added: "I decided to desert when I was ordered to raid two monasteries and force several hundred monks onto trucks.
"They were to be killed and their bodies dumped deep inside the jungle. I refused to participate in this."

The general is seeking political asylum in Norway, according to The Norway Post. A Norwegian freelance journalist told The Post that he met with General Win in a jungle hideout near the border with Thailand.

Norway has deep ties to the opposition movement in Myanmar, formerly called Burma, through the Democratic Voice of Burma, which runs a robust news operation out of Oslo. So far, it has posted no English-language reports of Mr. Win's reported defection, but it referred to him in an earlier piece as a "local commander" in Yangon."

---

Mebbe we can spare some Americans from Iraq to shift to jungle mode and enforce a regime change in Burma? There's no end of fun, if you know how to play. (Sarcasm).


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 11:36 AM

What, and upset the fu#king Chinese and Russians?

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 01:56 PM

Washington Post:

What We Owe the Burmese

By Fred Hiatt
Monday, October 1, 2007; Page A19

An upheaval like the pro-democracy uprising taking place in Burma over the past month tends to shake up certainties that had seemed self-evident. Certainties such as the primacy of justice. Or the sanctity of the Olympic Games.

Despite an academic industry devoted to the subject, no one can predict when an oppressed people will find that precise combination of hopelessness and hope, impatience and solidarity, and recklessness and anger that leads it to rebel. Nor can anyone answer the most important question facing Burma now: When will the boys and men who prop up a corrupt regime with their guns and prison cells decide that they have had enough -- that they no longer want to shoot unarmed Buddhist monks or round up young girls for possession of cellphones with cameras?

But this much is sure: The first process is rare and precious enough, and the second so difficult to initiate, that those on the outside must do whatever they can to support and encourage both. We're a long way from having fulfilled that obligation.

Over the past decade, human rights advocates have united behind the notion of accountability for dictators and war criminals. They persuaded most of the world's nations to sign on to the International Criminal Court. The theory is no mercy, no compromise, no temporizing.

No one deserves trial more than Burma's Gen. Than Shwe and his cronies. They have looted their country's natural wealth and turned its army into a monster that rapes and press-gangs its compatriots. More than 1.5 million people have been routed from their villages, often with bayonets having been thrust through their rice pots to ensure that they go hungry. Now the regime is rounding up nonviolent protesters in the most violent way, and -- if past practice is any indicator -- torturing many of them in some of the world's bleakest prisons.

Yet if amnesty for these despicable men could buy release for their country -- if we could trade their safe passage to China and a guarantee of undisturbed retirement for a chance to free 2,000 or more political prisoners, unshackle democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi and help Burma's 50 million people onto a path to self-governance, would we reject such a deal? If we could split the regime by promising leniency to the generals who refuse to take part in the crackdown, would we be too pure to do so?

I know the arguments against such compromises, and they are powerful: the difficulty of achieving national reconciliation without national justice; the value of warning future dictators that they will pay for future crimes; the gall of monsters going free. And still, given the unbearable alternative of watching a people be crushed for the second time in two decades, I would do anything to guide those monsters to pleasant seaside villas.


And here's something else I would do: Tell China that, as far as the United States is concerned, it can have its Olympic Games or it can have its regime in Burma. It can't have both.

Here, too, I understand the arguments against: China's rulers are gradually becoming more responsible in the world; to threaten their Games would only get their backs up. The Games themselves offer a chance to enhance international understanding; if we let world affairs interfere, there will always -- every two years -- be some cause. The athletes have trained for years; they deserve their chance.

And yet: Hundreds of thousands of Burmese have risked everything -- their homes, their families, their lives -- to be free. They have done so with nothing on their side but courage, faith and the hope that the world might stand with them. And they still have a chance to succeed.

Whether they do depends mostly on decisions made inside Burma. But people and countries outside can have some effect. Burma's neighbors in Southeast Asia could do more. The world's largest democracy, India, could do far more. China could do most of all.

China's Communist rulers have reasons not to help Burma's democrats. They enjoy privileged access to Burma's timber and other resources, for one. Even more fundamentally, dictators will shudder when they see another illegitimate regime threatened by people power.

What could push them the other way? Their desire to be seen as responsible players, maybe. Their desire to have their one-party rule recognized as more sophisticated and legitimate than the paranoid generals of Burma, maybe. And, maybe, their deep desire to host a successful Olympics next summer.

If a threat to those Games -- delivered privately, if that would be most effective, with no loss of face -- could help tip the balance, then let the Games not begin. Some things matter more.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 02:13 PM

Extravagent weddings and forced labour - where the oil companies money goes

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 03:07 PM

U.N. talks with Myanmar's junta leader delayed

Story Highlights
Talks between U.N. envoy and Myanmar's junta leader are delayed

Envoy Ibrahim Gambari sees opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi, U.N. says

Security forces using increasing force to crack down on pro-democracy groups

Japan, Myanmar's top aid donor, reportedly considering sanctions in protest
   
(CNN) -- Talks between U.N. envoy Ibrahim Gambari and Myanmar's secretive military leader were stalled for another day on Monday.

The Associated Press, citing diplomats, said Gambari was taken on a government-sponsored trip to attend a seminar in the far northern Shan state on EU relations with Southeast Asia, instead of meeting with junta leader Senior Gen. Than Shwe.

Gambari had planned to tell him, "about the international outrage over what has happened and will urge him to talk with various people and try to resolve the problems peacefully," Shari Villarosa, chargé d'affaires at the U.S. Embassy in Yangon, told CNN on Sunday.

Earlier, the United Nations said it was uncertain as to when any meeting with Shwe might take place.

Troops removed roadblocks on Monday and moved into less conspicuous posts, according to The Associated Press.

"It's outwardly quite normal at the moment. The traffic seems to be flowing; there's a lot of military tucked away in less visible locations," British Ambassador Mark Canning told the AP. "They've obviously for the moment squeezed things off the streets."

Myanmar's ruling military junta imposed heavy security restrictions in the former capital last week as pro-democracy demonstrations began to attract tens of thousands of protesters.

Acting to crush the demonstrations, security guards have used increasing force in recent days, resulting in the deaths of at least 10 people, according to media and opposition reports, which CNN cannot independently confirm.

On Monday, a man, who identified himself as Nick, said he saw about 15 bodies floating in a river in Yangon. He described them as both men and women, monks and civilians.

In other developments, Myanmar soldiers have surrounded the campus of a technology school in Yangon, detaining about 2,000 people, who were staging a hunger strike to protest the crackdown on demonstrators, a well-known source with the pro-democracy movement told CNN. Those involved in the strike, which started Friday, include students, nuns and monks, the source said.

Buddhist monks initiated the demonstrations that began in August to protest a rise in gasoline prices.

Security forces have restricted the movement of the monks and locked most of the monasteries, effectively barring the Buddhist clergy from marching, said the opposition Web site Mizzima News. CNN cannot independently confirm that report.

Gambari met with detained pro-democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi on Sunday in an effort to quell tensions between the military leaders and protesters, the United Nations said.

The meeting took place in Yangon for about an hour. No other details were released.

It was a rare visit as Suu Kyi, who is under house arrest, has been barred from meeting with foreigners in the past. She has been detained for various periods since 1989 after her National League for Democracy won the country's first free multiparty elections in 30 years but the military junta refused to hand over power.

She won the 1991 Nobel Peace Prize for her work in restoring democracy in Myanmar, also known as Burma. See a timeline of events in Myanmar »

Gambari arrived Saturday in Myanmar following a week of protests by citizens and Buddhist monks that were met with increasing force at the hands of government security guards.

Once in Myanmar, Gambari was taken to the isolated bunkerlike capital, Naypyidaw, for talks with senior government officials in hopes of finding a peaceful resolution to the ongoing clashes. See more about the nation of Myanmar »

Japan, Myanmar's largest aid donor, is considering sanctions or other actions to protest the crackdown, chief Cabinet spokesman Nobutaka Machimura said Monday, according to the AP. A Japanese journalist died in the violence.

Pope Benedict XVI offered support to the citizens of Myanmar, the AP reported. About 1 percent of the population are Catholics, according to the AP.

"I want to express my spiritual closeness to the dear population in this moment of the very painful trial it is going through," the pontiff said, according to the AP.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:49 PM

Groups struggle to tally Myanmar's dead

By MICHAEL CASEY, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 49 minutes ago



BANGKOK, Thailand - One hundred shot dead outside a Myanmar school. Activists burned alive at government crematoriums. A Buddhist monk floating face down in a river.

After last week's brutal crackdown by the military, horror stories are filling Myanmar blogs and dissident sites. But the tight security of the repressive regime makes it impossible to verify just how many people are dead, detained or missing.

"There are huge difficulties. It's a closed police state," said David Mathieson, a consultant with Human Rights Watch in Thailand. "Many of the witnesses have been arrested and are being held in areas we don't have access to. Other eyewitness are too afraid."

Authorities have acknowledged that government troops shot dead nine demonstrators and a Japanese cameraman in Yangon. But witness accounts range from several dozen deaths to as many as 200.

"We do believe the death toll is higher than acknowledged by the government," Shari Villarosa, the top U.S. diplomat in Myanmar, told The Associated Press Monday. "We are doing our best to get more precise, more detailed information, not only in terms of deaths but also arrests."

Villarosa said her staff had visited up to 15 monasteries around Yangon and every single one was empty. She put the number of arrested demonstrators — monks and civilians — in the thousands.

"I know the monks are not in their monasteries," she said. "Where are they? How many are dead? How many are arrested?"

She said the true death toll may never be known in a Buddhist country where bodies are cremated.

"We're not going to find graves like they did in Yugoslavia ... We have seen few dead bodies. The bodies are removed promptly. We don't know where they are being taken," Villarosa said.

Dissident groups have been collecting accounts from witnesses and the families of victims, and investigating reports of dead bodies turning up at hospitals and cemeteries in and around Yangon.

The U.S. Campaign For Burma, a Washington-based pro-democracy group, says more than 100 people were killed in downtown Yangon after truckloads of government troops fired automatic weapons last Thursday at thousands of demonstrators. It also claims that 100 students and parents were killed the same day at a high school in Tamwe, in northeastern Yangon, after troops shot at them as school let out.

The Democratic Voice of Burma, a Norway-based dissident news organization, has received reports of soldiers burning protesters alive at the Yae Way cemetery crematorium on the outskirts of Yangon. The group also shot video Sunday of a dead monk, badly beaten and floating face down in a Yangon river.

The Democratic Voice of Burma has put the death toll at 138, based on a list compiled by the 88 Student Generation, a pro-democracy group operating in Myanmar.

"This 138 figure is quite credible because it's based on names of victims," Aye Chan Naing, the chief editor, told the AP Monday. "I also think the figure is accurate because of the pictures coming from inside Burma. The way they were shooting into the crowds with machine guns means dozens of people could have died."

The Democratic Voice of Burma also estimates that about 6,000 demonstrators — including at least 1,400 monks from seven now-empty monasteries — are being held at makeshift detention centers set up at universities, old factories and a race track in Yangon. There are already an estimated 1,100 political prisoners languishing in Myanmar's jails.

The military junta did not respond to AP requests for comment Monday. It is impossible to independently verify the death toll because Myanmar is virtually off-limits to journalists.

Lars Bromley of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Washington said his agency has ordered up satellite images of four Myanmar cities, including Yangon, since the crackdown. He said satellite imagery — along with clear skies and exact locations from witnesses — could help locate massacre sites, and also give some sense of the military presence around cities and monasteries.

"If there are several suspected burial sites, we could help narrow it down or identify the site," said Bromley, who last week uncovered evidence that Myanmar's military destroyed border villages and forcibly relocated ethnic minorities in eastern Myanmar last year. "But we need a little information to go on."

Most analysts said the fallout from the protests was not surprising, given the regime's history of brutality. It may be impossible to ever verify how many people are dead or detained.

"We cannot say exactly and we are unlikely to know for sure," Win Hlaing of the dissident group National League for Democracy-Liberated Area said of the death toll. "(But) the junta never declares the real number of people killed."

Myanmar's military also opened fire on the country's 1988 democratic uprising. Human Rights Watch estimates that at least 3,000 protesters were killed, but other reports cite up to 10,000. The media, diplomats and activists have been denied access to documents that could shed light on the shootings.

And so, to this day, the exact death toll remains shrouded in secrecy.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:28 PM

It's a start, anyway.

"Dear Mr. Murdoch:

On behalf of the Right Honourable Stephen Harper, I would like to thank
you for your e-mail, in which you raised an issue which falls within
the portfolio of the Honourable Maxime Bernier, Minister of Foreign
Affairs. The Prime Minister always appreciates receiving mail on subjects
of importance to Canadians.

Please be assured that the statements you made have been carefully
reviewed. I have taken the liberty of forwarding your e-mail to Minister
Bernier so that he too may be made aware of your comments. I am certain
that the Minister will give your views every consideration. For more
information on the Government's initiatives, you may wish to visit the
Prime Minister's Web site, at www.pm.gc.ca.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 08:14 PM

I'd like to know more about the philosophy of the ruling junta.

This military group has ignored a landslide election in which the opposition party led by Aung San Suu Kyi - 'The Lady', as she's known - was handed power by the people.

I must assume that the military think they have better ideas for the country, but I haven't seen any reports anywhere of what these ideas are.

By the way, for those wishing to take some action, if you already know more than I (not hard!) about Burma and its rulers, may I suggest that you write gentle and courteous personal letters to those rulers quoting apposite Burmese literature that may be attractive to these specific people and making your point.

I remember meeting people on both sides of a big letter campaign. On one side, people said to me "We've got thousands of people to fill out this form letter and send it in to the government in protest." On the other, a civil servant showed me bundles of these letters and said "Oh, they're all identical, they're just a form; we just threw them all out."

While all the individuals had believed strongly in what was written in the letter, the fact that it was a formula meant the people it was addressed to paid no attention. If each of those people had written a polite, kind letter individually, they would have been listened to.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 10:35 AM

Saying 'please' didn't help with Chile or Argentina. I don't think it would help with Burma, but it's lots like chicken soup: couldn't hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 10:58 AM

No, we filled our quote of people we can upset a while back.

Anyway what if we spend a fortune and get our young people killed and it turns out they never wanted democracy - they just want to piss about killing each other.

Different this time...?

It always is.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 11:07 AM

No different than Cambodia, Darfur, Somalia--this could be a long list.

It is perhaps time to think about getting rid of the UN as it stands today. Worthless tw#ts for the most part, impotent when it matters and more concerned with how they 'look' than what they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 11:15 AM

"Anyway what if we spend a fortune and get our young people killed and it turns out they never wanted democracy - they just want to piss about killing each other."

They have already had the vote on that. They want democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 11:38 AM

So you want Bush to drop bombs on them, Peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 11:40 AM

Piost under your Mudcat name or fu#k off.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: DougR
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 01:03 PM

Guest Mark Alley: (Your original post) Right. Spoken like a true patriot circa 1939.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 07:52 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: weelittledrummer - PM
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 10:58 AM

No, we filled our quote of people we can upset a while back.

Anyway what if we spend a fortune and get our young people killed and it turns out they never wanted democracy - they just want to piss about killing each other.

Different this time...?

It always is."

This one may be more unusual than you think WLD, as only one side of the argument is getting shot dead.

No Al Qaeda insurgents here, just a bunch of saffron coloured rifle targets, who are passively protesting that they didn't get the government they voted for, in spite of winning the elaction.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 11:33 PM

"in spite of winning the elaction."


             How do you win an elaction, anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 11:11 AM

If folks' spelling or typos become the subject of derision, we are going to be spending lotsa time off topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 11:14 AM

Agreed. Thats the one critiscm I have about Mudcat. The inability to edit your post afterwards.