BS: Should we care about Burmese?

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: redsnapper
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 08:01 AM

In that example I can certainly agree with you Riginslinger. While the Shah's regime was pretty repressive the current one is far more so.

Best regards

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 07:48 AM

"I can understand that view... whether I agree with it or not is immaterial... but how does it apply to this particular situation in Burma?"

                Maybe it doesn't apply to Burma. What I've seen in other parts of the world--Iran is a good example--when represive governments are overthrown by religious movements, they usually end up being more represive than the government they replaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 07:30 AM

Done it Giok
It said taht it closed on 27th Sept, but I went for it anyway and it seemed to work and my name is on the list.

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:09 AM

UK Petition to boycott Beijing Olympics for thr benefit of Burma.
Please sign.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: redsnapper
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:16 AM

Being a Buddhist myself stigweard, I'd go even further. In Buddhism there is no God at all. Nor, strictly speaking, is it a religion although usually regarded as such (both in the East and West)... it is more a way of living and practicing one's life. Your description of the robes and shaved heads is spot on for the monks although, of course, most lay Buddhists do not adopt these practices. Also the esteem in which the monks are held in many Eastern societies.

This is why I was asking for clarification as I could not relate the questions being asked to the situation in Burma. To me, the monks actions are the passive resistance I would have expected.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:08 AM

"You'd have to wonder why they'd shave their heads and dress up in orange sheets to do this."

In many senses buddhism is not a religion in the same sense the other major religions are. They have no one 'god' as such - Buddha was an ordinary man who gained enlightenment and buddhism is about following this path through direct personal experience. It's more of a way of life than a religion in many cases - Zen buddhism is quite remarkable when delved into and is deep whist at the same time being, er, about nothing. Literally.

The monks wear their robes and shave their heads as part of the process of detachment from possessions, and the robes and their food bowl is all they own. This austerity is not seen as a problem, but is desirable as it releases them from worrying about how much stuff they've got and concentrate on developing compassion for all living beings, and a desire to see them released from their suffering.

There is no Western analogy for the place buddhist monks occupy in eastern societies - they are seen as the protectors of the poor and vulnerable and carry a moral authority that simply doesn't exist within our own societies.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: redsnapper
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:05 AM

Riginslinger,

I can understand that view... whether I agree with it or not is immaterial... but how does it apply to this particular situation in Burma? I cannot seem to follow that but perhaps I am missing something.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: stand with the Burmese people!
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 12:01 AM

I hope it helps. Thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 11:08 PM

"I am curious as to why you are making these remarks/questions."

            redsnapper - I guess I see religion as pretty much the root of all evil, and I'm suspicious when somebody says, "No, this religion is good, but I agree with you on all the others."

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: pdq
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 09:06 PM

Burma is an unusual case.The government is accused of favoritism toward the dominant group, a sect of Buddhism. Over 90% of the country is part of that majority religion, yet they are also the protesters.

In Viet Nam, trouble was caused by a Roman Cotholic named Diem who tried to force his religion on the Buddhist majority, but the result was the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 09:02 PM

Intriguing thought about boycotting Chinese products. Gives me an idea.

A Walmart opened here in Juneau Alaska this month. I haven't shopped there but it would be an interesting endeavor to create a picketing sign exhorting a boycott of China-made items along with information about Burma, and parade around. Probably get arrested - but might be worth trying. I'll give it some thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 08:45 PM

10 THINGS YOU CAN DO TO HELP THE PROTESTERS

1 - PROTEST- Look below in "Recent news" for details of worldwide protests.

2 - SPREAD THE WORD- Invite your friends to this group, email all your family and friends, write to local newspapers

3 - CONTACT YOUR ELECTED OFFICIAL- they will respond if enough people contact them.

4 - EMAIL COMPANIES STILL IN BURMA their email addresses are listed here http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24957770200&topic=3071

5 - SIGN A PETITION there are lots listed here
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24957770200&topic=3175

6 - KEEP UP TO DATE -READ SOME BLOGS/WEBSITES We've compiled some great resources http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24957770200&topic=3231

7. EMAIL YOUR NATION'S EMBASSY IN BURMA, asking them to open up their WiFi networks for our contacts to utilize. We've had reports that the internet is down to keep reports and pictures IN Burma, we need to do everything we can to make sure they get OUT. Your embassy's contact info will be on your country's ministry/department of foreign affairs webpage. http://www.alloexpat.com/myanmar_expat_forum/foreign-embassy-in-myanmar-directory-t5.html

8 - CONTACT EXTERNAL MEDIA. If you have any updates pass them to the press via details listed here http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24957770200&topic=3232

9 - BOYCOTT CHINA - Think about boycotting Chinese goods. http://leedsac.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24957770200&topic=3223

10 - BROWSE THIS SITE At the bottom of the page is the constantly updating wall with up to the minute news on protests and what is happening in Burma.
__________________________
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=24957770200

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 08:23 PM

Peace, my emails don't return saying they are undeliverable. They claim that there is a 'syntax problem', even though I looked up the Myanmar website and your addresses are correct, as given there.

Subject: BS: stand with the Burmese people!
From: Tyke
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 08:14 PM

Hi, have you heard about the crisis in Burma?

Burma is ruled by one of the worst military dictatorships in the world. This week Buddhist monks and nuns began marching and chanting prayers to call for democracy. The protests spread and hundreds of thousands of Burmese people joined in -- they've been brutally attacked by the military regime, but still the protests are spreading.

I just signed a petition calling on Burma's powerful ally China and the UN security council to step in and pressure Burma's rulers to stop the killing. The petition has exploded to over 200,000 signatures in a few days and is being advertised in newspapers around the world, delivered to the UN secretary general, and broadcast to the Burmese people by radio. We're trying to get to 1 million signatures this week, please sign below and tell everyone!

http://www.avaaz.org/en/stand_with_burma/
        
Thank you for your help!
George Clarke

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: redsnapper
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 01:50 PM

Riginslinger,

That is the custom of Buddhist monks in many countries. Same as some Jews, Moslems, Christians and others have their dress practices.

The vast majority of lay Buddhists have no such dress code (likewise lay practicioners of other beliefs and practices).

I am curious as to why you are making these remarks/questions.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 01:35 PM

"Being a buddhist is about addressing reality at it's most fundamental level of perception... The idea is you take no-one's word for anything but find out for yourself."


                   You'd have to wonder why they'd shave their heads and dress up in orange sheets to do this.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 05:35 PM

"Russia is, like China, a veto-wielding UN Security Council member and has shown growing interest in energy cooperation with Burma. China, the main backer of Burma's military government, has flatly ruled out backing sanctions."

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 04:55 PM

Canadians can e-mail Prime Minister Stephen Harper at

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 04:51 PM

"A Canadian Labour Congress statement
We need strong Canadian voices on the side of the people in Burma
Ken Georgetti – 28 September 2007

The people of Burma need our vocal and active solidarity. If the demonstrations were triggered by a rise in fuel prices that has left this oil-importing nation devastated, they mostly express a collective frustration with the junta's continued refusal to respond to the cares of its own people.
Over the last eighteen years the Canadian Labour Congress has worked closely with our colleagues from the Federation of Trade Unions of Burma and the National Coalition of the Union of Burma. We have condemned the repeated and systematic violations of workers and human rights committed by the military junta in Burma, particularly the use of forced labour. We have called for an end to this criminal policy. With the generous support of a number of our affiliated unions, we have supported FTUB activities inside Burma in the border area and have been involved with union training on human and workers' rights issues.

The military junta has made Burma the only country ever to be expelled from the International Labour Organization because of its responsibility in the ongoing use of forced labour; a practice that the ILO equates to a crime against humanity. Indeed this military has closed and isolated the country with complete disregard for no less than twenty-eight UN General Assembly and Commission on Human Rights resolutions calling for national reconciliation and an end to the crisis.

In Canada, Parliament, unanimously passed a motion in May 2005 in support of comprehensive economic measures against the military regime. The government has not gone beyond statements discouraging Canadians to do business there.

While the Canadian Labour Congress acknowledges what has been done in Parliament and the steps taken by the government, we much deplore the lack of vigour in preventing the continuous presence in Burma of a number of high- profile Canadian corporations. Their activities there only feed the military regime and aggravate the people's poverty.

There is urgency for strong voices on the side of the people in Burma. Today, as Canadians, we must call for peace and democracy in Burma if we want to remain credible when we make the same call anywhere else."

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 04:30 PM

This is what I have submitted for consideration as a petition on the No 10 petitions web site.






Your petition reads:

    We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Boycott the
    Beijing Olympics

    Unless the Chinese government, which has a greater external
    influence in Burma, than any other country, puts pressure on
    the illegal Burmese Junta to restore democracy to that country.
    We should boycott the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games.

    Thank you for submitting your petition.

    [ This email has been automatically sent by the Number 10
    petitions system ]

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 12:11 PM

"With an indoctrination program like that, how would you ever get them to come around to deal with reality?"

Being a buddhist is about addressing reality at it's most fundamental level of perception - Tibetan and Zen monks undergo a far longer training period. You have to remember buddhism is a religion where you are encouraged to rigorously question down to the very basic levels their religious doctrines. The idea is you take no-one's word for anything but find out for yourself.

In this context it's not so difficult to understand the reason the monks lead the protests. There is not some religious agenda motivating them, but a compassion for all the beings that are cause suffering - in this case by by the Junta - they are simply trying to improve the lot of everyone in Burma. The genuinely care for all the people without exception regardless of their own religious convictions. The Jewish-Christian-Muslim religions could learn a lot from their buddhist contemporaries about tolerance, understanding and peaceful protest.

Of course, the Junta's biggest buddies the Chinese hate with a passion anyone who thinks for themselves hence their ongoing persecution of innocent Tibetan buddhist monks and institutions elsewhere on the continent - they even kidnap their Lamas and replace them with their own puppet leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 12:05 PM

Bastards.

My e-mails to various government departments and ministeries in Burma were returned as "undeliverable". FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:21 AM

"...all Buddhist males have to spend at least 2 years as a monk before becoming an adult, and many adults go in and out of monkeries."

                     Yikes - With an indoctrination program like that, how would you ever get them to come around to deal with reality?

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:56 AM

That's what happens when you squander all your own resources, and become reliant on those of others mate.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:52 AM

Good move on the Olympics - the western desire to lick the arse of the world's most brutal and repressive regieme for a few quid is the single most sickening issue of our time.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 05:03 AM

Thanks Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 04:54 AM

I have applied to start a petition to boycott the Beijing Olympics via the government petitions site at No 10.
I will let you know what happens.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 04:30 AM

Always too bloody late.
Action against the regime should have been at least a week ago.
Is there a petition for banning the olympics in China. I would definately sign that.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:03 PM

Satellite photos may prove abuses in Myanmar, researchers say

Story Highlights
Before and after satellite pictures show disappearance of villages, scientists say

Also seen: evidence of forced relocation of villagers, military buildup

"We're watching frm the sky," interest group warns Myanmar junta


   
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Satellite photos showing the disappearance of villages and a buildup of army camps offer what researchers say is potential evidence of human rights abuses in Myanmar, the scene of bloody anti-government protests that have drawn tens of thousands of demonstrators.

At least nine people were killed in Myanmar on Thursday, when soldiers with automatic rifles fired into the crowds. Troops in riot gear also raided Buddhist monasteries on the outskirts of Yangon and beat and arrested dozens of monks, according to witnesses and Western diplomats.

The government said 10 people have been killed since the violence began earlier this week, but British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said he believed the loss of life in Myanmar was "far greater" than is being reported.

Myanmar, also known as Burma, has become the focus of international pressure to curtail the violent repression of its citizens.

"We are trying to send a message to the military junta that we are watching from the sky," Aung Din, policy director for the interest group U.S. Campaign for Burma, said Friday at a briefing on the photos.

The American Association for the Advancement of Science said it has compiled satellite images that provide evidence of village destruction, forced relocations and a growing military presence at sites across eastern Myanmar.

Lars Bromley, director of the AAAS Geospatial Technologies and Human Rights project, said he had received more than 70 reports of rights violations. He then sought before-and-after satellite photos of the regions from commercial firms.

"Physical evidence of reported attacks on civilians sometimes can be subtle compared to the slash-and-burn types of destruction that we saw in Darfur or Zimbabwe. It's also a lush ecosystem where plants can quickly grow to cover burn marks and clouds and terrain often block satellite observation," he said.

Nonetheless, he said he was able to map the locations of 31 of the reported human rights violations.

"Eighteen of the locations showed evidence consistent with destroyed or damaged villages," he said in a statement. "We found evidence of expanded military camps in four other locations as well as multiple possibly relocated villages, and we documented growth in one refugee camp on the Thai border. All of this was very consistent with reporting by multiple human rights groups on the ground in Burma."

"These things are happening over quite a range, it's not just an isolated incident," Bromley said.

"We're not necessarily drawing conclusions about what happened to these villages, that comes from organizations we work with," he explained.

But, for example, there were reports of attacks on villages in April and satellite images showed the blackened remains of burned villages.

In addition, the photos showed several new villages near military camps, suggesting forced relocations.

Bromley said that since the demonstrations began in recent days satellites have been turned toward the major cities, but he noted that this is the cloudy season.

"We are hoping for a gap in the clouds," he said.

Jeremy Woodrum, director of U.S. Campaign for Burma, said he considers the images good evidence of abuses.

"When you consider that a million and a half people have fled out of the area, I think it's pretty clear," he said. "Especially when combined with dozens and dozens of reports from human rights organizations."

Satellite images showed multiple burn scars in otherwise thick green forest in the Papun district, and before and after images showed the removal of structures, consistent with eyewitness reports of village destruction.

Signs of an expanded military presence, such as the buildup of bamboo fencing around a camp, and construction of a satellite camp, also were identified, Bromley said.

Buildup of military camps and disappearance of villages and buildings were also documented in the Toungoo and Dooplaya districts.

The military took control of Myanmar in 1962 and since then has regularly clashed with pro-democracy groups. Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung San Suu Kyi, a democracy advocate, has been detained by the military for years.

The current crisis began August 19 with rallies against a fuel price hike. It escalated when monks began joining the protests.

President Bush announced economic sanctions against Myanmar on Thursday, and other countries have also condemned the actions of the Yangon government.

First lady Laura Bush and Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, have previously condemned human rights violations in Myanmar.


In a plea to Myanmar's ruling military regime, Mrs. Bush said earlier this week, "I want to say to the armed guards and to the soldiers: Don't fire on your people. Don't fire on your neighbors." Her remarks were in a Voice of America interview.

AAAS, a nonprofit general scientific society, previously used satellite technology to seek evidence of destruction in Darfur and Zimbabwe. The latest research was supported by the Open Society Institute and the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Alba
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:38 PM

Thank you for the update BB and the Washington Post article.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:01 PM

Internet cut in Myanmar, blogger presses on

Story Highlights
Internet connection in Myanmar has been cut off

London-blogger vows to keep up the fight

Woman on phone: "Who can help us?"

Student sent video to CNN because people "should know what is happening"


By Wayne Drash
CNN
   
(CNN) -- The Internet connection in Myanmar was cut Friday, limiting the free flow of information the nation's citizens were sharing with the world depicting the violent crackdown on monks and other peaceful demonstrators.

Ko Htike runs his Myanmar blog out of his London apartment and says he's trying to stop the violence.

Myanmar-based blogs went dark suddenly. But London-based blogger Ko Htike -- who has been one of the most prominent bloggers posting information about the violence -- has vowed to keep up the fight, saying where "there is a will, there is a way."

"I sadly announce that the Burmese military junta has cut off the Internet connection throughout the country," he said on his blog Friday. "I, therefore, would not be able to feed in pictures of the brutality by the brutal Burmese military junta."

Ko Htike is a 28-year-old who left Myanmar, once known as Burma, seven years ago to study in England.

He told CNN.com a day earlier that he has as many as 40 people in Myanmar sending him photos or calling him with information. They often take the photos from windows from their homes, he said.

Myanmar's military junta has forbidden such images, and anyone who sends them is risking their lives.

"If they get caught, you will never know their future. Maybe just disappear or maybe life in prison or maybe dead," he told CNN.

Why would they take such risks?

"They thought that this is their duty for the country," he said. "That's why they are doing it. It's like a mission."

Even with Friday's action by the government, he said he will continue to do all he can to get images of what's happening out for the world to see.

"I will also try my best to feed in their demonic appetite of fear and paranoia by posting any pictures that I receive through other means," he said on his blog. "I will continue to live with the motto that 'if there is a will there is a way.' "

With few Western journalists allowed in Myanmar, his blog has become one of the main information outlets. More than 170,000 people from 175 countries have gone to the blog, according to a counter on the page.

On Friday, shots rang out in the streets of Myanmar's biggest city of Yangon, marking the third straight day of violence at the hands of the ruling military junta to suppress citizen protests.

One diplomat told CNN that a Western witness had reported seeing about 35 bodies lying in rows on a street near Sule Pagoda, with civilians praying over them. CNN could not independently confirm the report, and it was not known if the bodies were from Friday or the result of earlier violence.

According to The Associated Press, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said Friday he believes the loss of life in Myanmar has been "far greater" than is being reported.

China pleads for calm in Myanmar

In a country where Buddhist monks are revered, the violence against them could stir even more outrage among the people of Myanmar. "Now, there is blood shed on the monastery," Htike said.

The Internet has also spawned other Myanmar pages. On the popular online community of Facebook, several Myanmar support pages were set up with links keeping a close eye on the latest developments. One letter floating around the Internet from a group calling itself the "Global Alliance of Burmese Students" called on people abroad to stage protests.

"We call on you to take action, to take the lead, and to show solidarity with our fellow countrymen back home," it said. "The streets of Yangon bleed red, and it will all be in vain if we do not act and mobilize for change."

Other people used technology as simple as the cell phone as a means to get the word out on what was happening.

"We didn't do any terrorism, but they sharp-shoot us," one woman said by phone inside Myanmar Thursday. "I just want to say we have no weapons and no rights."

She added, "Who can help us?"

The last time the nation saw such widespread protests was in 1988, when today's instantaneous means of communication did not exist. The government used brutal force to quash that democratic uprising, with few people seeing what happened. View a timeline of events there »

Today's technology allows anyone with the means to capture what is happening. Despite the cutting of the Internet inside the country, people can still take pictures and videos with cell phones and send them to the outside world.

"They are ready to die for that," Vincent Brossels with Reporters Without Borders said on Thursday. "I spoke with a Burmese journalist this morning in Rangoon and he told me that now I don't care about anything. I'm ready to be in jail. I'm ready to die for that."

Benjamin Valk, a 25-year-old student from a university in Tokyo, Japan, sent CNN.com video of saffron-robed monks carrying out a peaceful protest earlier this week in Yangon, once known as Rangoon. The video shows thousands of monks and civilians walking together and chanting.

He said he felt compelled to share the video because people "should know what is happening in a country like Myanmar."

"In a world where democracy is considered the better or perhaps the best political system, there is huge global support for a people who dare to openly challenge a military dictatorship and call for democracy," Valk said. "I think it's good for the world to see."

Htike agrees, saying he's just trying to stop the killing in his homeland.

"If I can publish these kind of [photos] and this kind of news to the world, so maybe they may stop a little bit."

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 04:54 PM

put pressure on CHina, Burma is essentially their client state.
and right now China is quite sensitive about any possible boycott of next years Olympics.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 04:05 PM

from the Washington Post:

Burma's Revolt of The Spirit

By Michael Gerson
Friday, September 28, 2007; Page A19

The great virtue of Buddhism is serene courage in the face of inevitable affliction. That courage is on display now in Burma -- a nation caught upon the wheel of suffering.

The sight of young, barefoot monks in cinnamon robes quietly marching for democracy, amid crowds carrying banners reading "love and kindness," is already a symbol of conscience for a young century. On closer examination, these protests have also shown that nonviolence need not be tame or toothless. The upside-down bowls carried by some of the monks signal that they will not accept alms from the leaders of the regime, denying them the ability to atone for bad deeds or to honor their ancestors. These chanting monks are playing spiritual hardball.

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Once again -- as in the American civil rights struggle and the end of communism in Eastern Europe -- religion is proving to be an uncontrollable force in an oppressive society. Religious dissidents have the ability not only to organize opposition to tyrants but also to shame them. Political revolutions often begin as revolutions of the spirit.

But the spirit, at least for the moment, is fastened to the body, which is subject to truncheons, tear gas and imprisonment. The junta in control of Burma, as we are seeing, is capable of extraordinary brutality. A regime that employs forced labor, conducts war on ethnic minorities and engages in systematic rape will hardly balk at the murder of monks and other protesters -- something it has done before by the thousands.

Fortunately, however, the regime's aging, increasingly feeble leadership is also capable of extraordinary stupidity. After the pointless construction of a new capital in a remote part of the country and the building of luxury housing for the military elite, Burma's government is cash-strapped. So it increased fuel prices by up to 500 percent, causing bus fares and the cost of basic commodities such as rice to spike. All through the summer, the democratic opposition has wisely focused its critique of the junta on the collapsing economy -- a collapse the regime is doing its best to hasten. After 40 years of military rule, Burma's per capita income is about one-fifth that of its neighbor Thailand, and child malnutrition is widespread.


The Bush administration hopes this economic discontent injects an element of instability into the regime itself. While the upper ranks of the Burmese military are well taken care of, the lower ranks often scramble for basic necessities. The Burmese guards outside the U.S. Embassy in Rangoon, according to one U.S. official, are currently getting by on a single meal a day.

The sanctions President Bush announced at the United Nations this week are designed to exploit these tensions. The new measures focus on the main five or 10 leaders of the junta and their families, along with key Burmese businessmen who broker foreign deals for the regime. With greater pressure at the top, perhaps a second tier of military leaders will be tempted to overthrow their well-fed superiors. "There is kindling here for change," says one senior Bush official.

This strategy would have a much greater chance of success with the support of nations in the region. When the strongest outside pressure comes from the United States, France and Britain, it is easier for the regime to rally opposition against the "colonial powers." But the response of most Asian nations has run from anemic to shameful. India has traditionally been content to deal with the regime instead of confronting it because it covets Burma's natural gas. And China remains the primary economic prop for the junta.

While Iran is the world's leading state sponsor of terrorists, China has become the leading state sponsor of common thugs, from Burma to Sudan to Zimbabwe. It has positioned itself as a great power without the pesky complication of conscience, willing to court and support any dictator who supplies a tribute of natural resources. At the same time, it has invited moral scrutiny by hosting the 2008 Olympics. China will either begin acting more responsibly in Burma and elsewhere -- abandoning its stated policy of "noninterference" -- or the Summer Games will become the focus of human rights complaints about every one of its brutal clients in the world.

It has become common in recent years to mock the "democracy agenda" as dreamy and unrealistic. That becomes harder as history focuses our choices -- in this case, the choice between the junta and the monks, which is really no choice at all. Burma's revolution of the spirit must succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 02:35 PM

The first thing that should be done is stop the Olympics in China. they are just as bad and don't deserve it.
Should we care about them. Of course we should.
The UN shopuld go in and sort the buggers out.
I feel very very sorry for the poor people there who must be petrified of such a bastard regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:31 PM

If they say it's illegal then watch it if you can, they are totalitarian despots.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: GUEST,Fayhem
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:23 PM

It's actually illegal to watch news footage from Myanmar as the government has banned it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:20 PM

some of the last photos to come out

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Alba
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:16 PM

The Junta have now cut ALL public internet access across Burmha and Cell phone services are being distrupted to stop information leaving or coming into the Country.
Hotels are being raided by Troops and any Journalists or Tourists found with any kind of Cameras or Filming equipment are being made to hand them over to the thugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:33 AM

The more government people in Burma that you can pressure the better. They are gonna do what they do anyway, but you will be able to tell your kids you tried. Sometimes it's the best a guy can do.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:31 AM

There are 300,000 monks and 450,000 soldiers. The monks ain't armed.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: redsnapper
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:27 AM

That's true of Asian Buddhist males Mrrzy where it the general custom and often requirement, not necessary Western ones of course, though the length of time does vary between different Asian countries.

In this case I expect fear of retribution also extends into being a junior member of the military hence their part in violent actions. As Teribus says, that probably causes some considerable loss of morale given the regard in which the monks are held.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:08 AM

"The military has sought foreign investment in order to rescue it from bankruptcy. A worrying consequence of the investment is the way it has provided foreign currency which has helped the regime to expand the army - in turn helping it to maintain power.

Currently the regime has around 500,000 military personnel. A country of only 50 million people has one of the largest armies in Asia yet has no external enemies." BCUK

This army was used to "assist" the building of the Unocal pipe line;
Unocal was subsequently accused of being complicit in forced labour, rape and torture allegedly carried out by troops guarding the $1.2bn Yadana pipeline during its construction in the 1990s, reaching an out of court settlement in 2005.

American, French and Chinese oil companies are sustaining this vicious regime.

Total's response to international criticism of their record in Burma....
"It's true that oil, gas and mining operations generate considerable revenue for host countries and that these funds are less likely to be used transparently if the political system does not support open debate and effective controls. But it is not the role of an oil company to tell a country how to best use that revenue. Only international organizations can legitimately impose conditions of this sort."

OK folks - get out there anyway you can, wear a red shirt, email politicians or support campaign groups ......but do SOMETHING; this violation of human rights cannot be left to the beleaguered citizens alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 09:56 AM

This is what the people of Burma are up against:

Burma's intensely superstitious rulers have long been guided by a belief in portents and prophecies, cosmology, numerology and magic. The time and date of the ceremony marking independence from Britain was also chosen according to astrological dictates: 4.20am on January 4, 1948. General Ne Win was the mysticism-obsessed dictator who seized power in 1962 and steered Burma from prosperity to penury; in 1989 he introduced the 45-kyat and 90-kyat banknotes, for the simple but mind-bending reason that these were divisible by and added up to nine, his lucky number. He believed this move would also ensure he would live to the lucky age of 90. Ne Win, who insisted on walking backwards over bridges at night and other rituals to avoid bad luck, died in 2002, at the age of 92, which was either good luck or bad luck, depending on how you look at it. Even the decision to change the name of Burma to Myanmar was prompted by Ne Win's soothsayer, and announced on May 27 (since 2 + 7 = 9).

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article2547120.ece

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 09:47 AM

Yes I know that, but what difference it makes to this little contretemps I don't know.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 09:41 AM

What a lot of people don't realize is that being a monk in Buddhism isn't like being a priest or nun or going into a yeshiva... all Buddhist males have to spend at least 2 years as a monk before becoming an adult, and many adults go in and out of monkeries. It isn't retiring from the world necessarily, although there are plenty of monks who are lifelong monks.

It's like Europeans having to do 2 years in the military - it doesn't mean they are career soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 09:17 AM

Don T, I definitely don't see the Shrub pushing the idea of military intervention, the possibility of which, I believe, has not even entered anyone's head within the current US Administration. What he is doing is enforcing sanctions which is more obviously than us Brits have done and the French are just getting round to it.

The passive rebellion of Burma's first estate cannot be attacked as the Army did the general population in previous crack-downs. Very hard to maintain morale amongst the troops when they are ordered to attack the body that represents their religion.

While sanctions and economic blockade can do only so much, the regime has got to collapse from the inside and only the people of Burma themselves can do that. All they have to do is ensure that the country just does not function.

Burma does have oil but is (IIRC) a net importer, it does however, export gas.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 08:55 AM

It seems that the protests are slowing down, and there were no monks visible in the ranks today.
Somebody on the radio suggested that if we all threatened to boycott the Beijing Olympics, the Chinese who have the most influence in Burma, would pretty soon get their fingers out and get something done.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 08:44 AM

Too right, Teribus. Should we care? Yes. Can we do much about it, personally? No. Western pressure hasn't worked against the Burmese government for years, and it isn't magically going to start working now. The best that Western countries can do without military intervention is make it economically hard for Burma, but North Korea shows graphically that this isn't enough to break the will of a dictatorship.

What will work is if the Army and government stop behaving like soldiers and start behaving like humans. The monks are applying as much pressure as they can here by basically damning all soldiers and government officials and their families.

Of course, the West *could* send in troops to break the Burmese government. But that's a problem. First off, the countries most likely to do this (Britain and the US) are over-extended as it is. Second off, there isn't currently a mandate for a global policeman, as much as there should be, because too many nations won't willingly submit to international scrutiny (the US joined North Korea in refusing to sign up to proposed international agreements on war crimes courts), and if the likely "policemen" won't themselves submit to the same rules then the whole thing becomes a global dictatorship. And third off, Iraq shows all too clearly what can go wrong with sending in the troops.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:56 AM

Oh S**t.

Almost enough value there to get the Shrub all gung ho again.

Look out Burma.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should we care about Burmese?
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:32 AM

Natural resources: petroleum, timber, tin, antimony, zinc, copper, tungsten, lead, coal, some marble, limestone, precious stones, natural gas, hydropower.