BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?

Subject: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: GUEST,The Caretaker
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 11:18 PM

I hope that even though I am a guest, this can be discussed. For the Liberal throngs here, is morality the correct answer? Or the lack of it?

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 11:35 PM

"... is morality the correct answer? "

To what question?

Tolerance as endorsement is always from a critic's viewpoint. You can hardly expect the 'tolerant' ones to answer that.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 12:07 AM

Dear Guest Caretaker,

Is this a test?

If so, who grades the test? You?

And if ao, if we have to take this test, I confess that I don't understand your questions.

I'm not sure who these Liberal throngs are or maybe you meant thongs or thrones??

And Dear Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. Guest Caretaker, if this is a test, I'm curious, what do we get if we pass?

And what happens if we fail?

Do we get kicked to the curb

or worse?

**

Sorry if you can't tolerate word games. Sometimes, I don't like word games either.

In any event, have a good day or a good night.

Shucks, have both a good day and a good night.


My name is Azizi and I endorse this post.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:09 AM

LMAO...two great responses in less than an hour!

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: John O'L
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:22 AM

Perhaps I can clarify things a little -

Q: When does tolerance become endorsement?
A: Morality.
OR
Q: When does tolerance become endorsement?
A: Lack of morality.


Discuss

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: folk1e
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:58 AM

When you allow your natural good feelings to your antagonist to slide into apathy!

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 08:11 AM

I refuse to tolerate intolerance.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 08:19 AM

when does tolerance become endorsement?

It never does.

But it can look like endorsement if the issue is important enough -- if the morality underlying the issue is grave enough.

"All it takes for evil to prevail in this world is for enough good men to do nothing."

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 08:30 AM

Always or Never depending upon your line of sight and field of vision. Remember to always allow for windage and elevation.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:52 AM

Tolerance can mean a whole host of things, ranging from total indifference about what other people do - "if you want to beat your wife thta's nothing to do with me" - to refraining from actually physicall;y punishing behaviour you object to.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:49 AM

John O'L said:

Q: When does tolerance become endorsement?
A: Morality.
OR
Q: When does tolerance become endorsement?
A: Lack of morality.

First, neither "Morality" nor "Lack of Morality" is a "when".

I don't see that either Q&A is at all meaningful, as phrased.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: GUEST,The Caretaker
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:04 AM

Azizi, obviously the question is too deep for you to answer. Yes, you failed the test because you could not answer the question because it obviously made you uncomfortable. Thanks for participating.

When tolerance becomes endorsement, I believe morality can be jeopardized. And if you have a problem with morality, it is everyone's problem. Sorry, if you again are uncomfortable with this concept. Perhaps you are not as tolerant as you might think you are.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: autolycus
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:05 AM

There's no hard-and-fast dividing line.

So the question, incomprehensible as it looks, can't be definitiely answered.

next question.

oh, endorsement can come in positive and negative forms, like, positively, acting so the what might have been not tolerated is manifestly accepted; negatively, doing nothing; introducing a law one way or the other.

The tolerant response to intolerance is, i suppose, to say, carry on as long as no-one is being harmed or their rights infringed.

I suspect rights occasionally clash, so all liberty for all might be impossible.

On the other hand, if we were all Daoists (formerly known as Taoists, no, not Maoists), well then ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,all problems solved.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:17 AM

Though I understand the concept (as I condensed it to the pithy "All it takes for evil to prevail..." quote) there are a number of problems with the concept that tolerance may imply endorsement.

Not the least of these problems is that there is not always a meaningful way by which one might express intolerance for some immorality.

It's kinda the flip-side of the dodge that says that unless you are doing something about solving a problem, you are, in effect, part of the problem.

It all sounds believable...until you start to look at it practically and realize that there are SO many things that one might even feel strongly about (as evil or wrong) but that one is in no position to be able to effect a change. The lack of action isn't from "tolerance" or "indifference". The lack of action is from "impotence". And it doesn't disqualify one from talking about it. It's just part of life.

In a democracy one at least has the chance to vote against what they believe is wrong. Well, unless there happens to be another wrong that's worse and is addressed by the opposing candidate.

yup. impotence.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:40 AM

I pick "C"...

I was gonna go with "D" be "C" seems *more* appropriate...

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:52 AM

Christ...I hate these threads.

Why don't you all sit back and listen to yourselves.

"Pseuds corner?" or "circus of the egos?"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Alice
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:58 AM

Caretaker, your question is not "deep". It is incomplete. Is morality the correct answer... to what?
You need some lessons in forming questions that can be answered and lessons in critical thinking skills.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:59 AM

I can tolerate the smell of "shit" but that doesn't mean I think it beneficial, or to be sought after.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: GUEST,The Caretaker
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 12:27 PM

Alice, I took the lessons. You just either lack the morality to answer a clearly presented question, or are just another one who is uncomfortable that it is being asked.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 12:29 PM

dear Caretaker..please study the following example of a deep question. It may enlighten you.


"If a man were to signify, if he had the POWER, which, being denied him, he were to endeavor anyhow, merely because he don't-would YOU?"

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 12:44 PM

Ahhhhh, them Philosphy majors do have a way with words, don't they???

But nevermind... I'm still stcikin' with "C"...

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Alice
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 12:46 PM

... must have been lessons taken at Bob Jones University.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 12:56 PM

(over in the "On same-sex marriages" thread, Caretaker has revealed his motivation)

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: GUEST,The Caretaker
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:02 PM

Actually, Bill D, you are off-topic. Why?

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: folk1e
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:10 PM

Bill D,
sorry but by my reading of your "deep question" you have 2 mutually exclusive paramiters!
Eather he does or he doesn't ..... take your pick, but not both at once!
By definition Tolerance means that you oppose something (whether or not you voice your opposition). If you did not oppose it you would be eather in agreement with, or indifferent to it!

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: GUEST,Michael Savage Fan
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:12 PM

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Alice
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:13 PM

Bill is not off topic at all.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,The Caretaker - PM
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:08 AM

I agree totally with Guest, Cruz. The masses HERE are in the minority in the real world. Gay marriage is not moral and does
not benefit society, only those who do not want to fit into it. It is where tolerance has gone too far and become endorsement.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:21 PM

not only is Bill on topic...*grin* ...but his "deep question" example was not meant to be clear...it was meant to 'enlighten'. It is from a book on Kierkegaard in which the author uses it as a funny bad example.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:38 PM

Are you talking about personal tolerance or Official (governmental, Institutionalized) tolerance? In the first case, the answer is clearly "not necessarily"; in the second case, the answer must be "yes".

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Bee
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:49 PM

"When does tolerance become endorsement?

For the Liberal throngs here, is morality the correct answer? Or the lack of it?

Azizi, obviously the question is too deep for you to answer. Yes, you failed the test because you could not answer the question because it obviously made you uncomfortable. Thanks for participating.

When tolerance becomes endorsement, I believe morality can be jeopardized. And if you have a problem with morality, it is everyone's problem. Sorry, if you again are uncomfortable with this concept. Perhaps you are not as tolerant as you might think you are.

Alice, I took the lessons. You just either lack the morality to answer a clearly presented question, or are just another one who is uncomfortable that it is being asked." - our Guest

These words come to mind upon reading: pompous, intolerant, contemptuous, accusatory, dismissive, hidebound, unpleasant, insulting, ignorant... anyone care to add more?

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 02:02 PM

Pete Seeger put it succinctly. "It's important to get along but not go along".

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 02:03 PM

presumptuous? offensive? silly?

Rogét, help me!

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Alice
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 02:07 PM

Guest, if you want people to take your threads seriously, do not post a title and
then ask an incomplete question about the title. If you had studied critical thinking skills,
you would know better than to judge me without enough information to form a
judgement about me (that I'm lacking morality or uncomfortable with a question).

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: GUEST,no tolerance for fools
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 02:32 PM

i think the fallacy here is that discussing tolerance in such broad sweeping terms. Narrow it down to a few cases, you can probably start a thread on each case and possibly no pair of induhviduals will agree on any two isses.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: autolycus
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 03:16 PM

Guest caretaker also appears to think that morality is a simple concept of a single meaning.

Which morality? Whose morality?

I'd guess from your posts that you'd say I've 'failed' some unnamed test purely because of the questions I've asked.

So my guess that for you, morality is obvious, unquestionable, and 'if we're not with you, we're against you.' The words @Bible' and 'The' spring to mind.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 05:14 PM

Tolerance does not directly become endorsement. It has to pass through acceptance to get there.

I do not tolerate Fred Phelps.

I tolerate people who display Confederate battle flags, but I don't accept the validity of their reasons for doing so, much less endorse the practice.

I tolerate and accept Republicans, but I certainly don't endorse Republicanism. I am able to accept them because, while I disagree with many of their ideas, I cannot declare them absolutely invalid.

I tolerate, accept and endorse homosexual people living together in committed relationships, and I believe such relationships are entitled to the same rights and protections as their heterosexual counterparts.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 05:49 PM

Bee-dubya-ell -
If the government tolerates all the things that you say you do, it effectively endorses and legitimatizes them.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: GUEST,The Caretaker
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 05:53 PM

Alic, I've got you completely pegged. Believe it. And Bill D., you were still off topic. Nice tap dance.

How's this:

I tolerate, accept but do not endorse homosexual people living together in committed relationships, and I believe such relationships are not entitled to the same rights and protections as their heterosexual counterparts.

Whiners, please tolerate this concept. Try. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 06:16 PM

I'm known for my intricate dance steps....but I'm also known for being able to categorize and identify topics..

oh....and for my belief in the rights of ALL folks who care for each other to decide for themselves who to live with and under what conditions. Your 'belief' that they are not entitled to equality tell me all I need to know about what YOU are known for.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:01 PM

The intitial statement of this thread is a newer softer hook of the Corrupt Christian Evangelical Beievers to help find others to join their hate campaign against : gays, liberals, democrats and any other group that serves as a scape goat for the rightious fanatics of the lord.

I have neighbors who engage in this very argument which usually ends with a comparison of people killing your children in cold blood and gays destroying the American family. They then ask you "Are you going to TOLERATE THAT?!!! (
this is not an exaggeration)

It is a hateful and ridiculous arguement.

These radical Christians should learn to tolerate the COnstitution of the United Sates before they start spouting off about the evils of tolerence.

It is as hateful and ridiculous as when the Nazis did it in 1935.
Allow one dwarf in your community and Bang YOUR Families are destroyed.

Families are destroyed all right but they are harmed by zealots and not folks and folk singers who simply want to live in peace and freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:13 PM

"I tolerate, accept but do not endorse homosexual people living together in committed relationships, and I believe such relationships are not entitled to the same rights and protections as their heterosexual counterparts." the Caretaker (Caretaker of what? Our "morality"?

When you say that you "tolerate" homosexual people living together in committed relationships but do not believe such relationships are entitled to the same rights and protections as their heterosexual counterparts, are you saying that you don't fling torches into their windows? Or are you saying that although they are in "committed relationships" you would not be neighbor to anyone 'like that'?

You know, when - and I firmly believe it will be found to be the truth - homosexual people are found to have chromosonal or other physical differences that cause attraction to one sex and repulsion to the other, I think there are people alive today who are going to be doing a lot of fancy 'splaining'.

Not too long ago, em>your counterparts believed that epilepsy indicated demon possession, Downs Syndrome children were a disgrace that should be hidden in attics and a series of bad breaks were sent by a vengeful god. How about educating yourself now and beating the rush?

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: pdq
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:20 PM

In the last few years, there have been numerous bombings and assasinations carried out by Islamic jihadists. When the victims are from the Christian population, as in France, Germany, Italy, Holland, England and the United States, we see a few imams come out and read a tepid condemnation. It is for public relations only, as they go back inside their mosque and continue to read about a future paradise on Earth where there are only Moslims. In their hearts, the carnage is justified.

Most Muslims tolerate the violence because they tacitly endorse it.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:26 PM

Tolerance becomes endorsement when it is used to enable ideas that the tolerater finds objectionable. Tolerance is not endorsement when used to keep anger at bay.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:28 PM

"Azizi, obviously the question is too deep for you to answer. Yes, you failed the test because you could not answer the question because it obviously made you uncomfortable."

GUEST Caretaker is quite up his own arse, isn't he!

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:29 PM

The real question here is WTF are GUESTS allowed to start threads in any section of Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:05 PM

If you have decided to tolerate something or someone, then you have already prejudged it or them in a negative fashion.

How about instead not even exercising that sort of prejudgment?

Most people on either side in any war tolerate the violence against those on the other side because they tacitly endorse it.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: GUEST,The Caretaker
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:49 PM

Peace said: "GUEST Caretaker is quite up his own arse, isn't he!"
Peace, what does "quite" mean?

And I see many guests start threads here. But only the ones you don't like are you "INTOLERANT of, apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 12:49 AM

In the context that Peace was using I think the word "quite" meant "more than a little". However, I am just offering that to be helpful, so don't take it personally.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 01:14 AM

When does tolerance become endorsement? If you encounter intolerance or injustice and say nothing, that's endorsement.

If you're bothered by something that really makes no difference and isn't really any of your business and you can't shut up about it, that's intolerance.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 01:42 AM

I'm thrilled to bits that caretaker, who responds to mosr posters, didn't say anything about mine.





      Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 01:43 AM

I think this is a fine question, and I thank you Caretaker for posting it! However... I am only tolerant of your attitude, I'm not endorsing it. ;^)

First, I gotta say... Intolerance sure is fashionable these days! Why waste your time being supportive of the good things in the people around you when there there are at least 5-10 things they do that you could really have a good rowe about? And... everyone around you will snicker up a storm if you can put someone down hard with some sort of sneaky snipe snapped up off the 'talk radio'/'internet' laugh parade. Besides... dwelling on positive things that matter just makes people feel uncomfortable anyway... ;^)

Anyway... I think intolerance is 'way' overrated. It's not smart, it's not Christian, and it's definately not effective. Tolerance, however... means what, exactly? Not going ballistic when two women hold hands? Or does it mean that you can still enjoy their company, and disdain to be judgemental about them as people? No matter how much you disagree with their 'sexual preference'.

Tough call...

My take on it?

This society is not feeling very well. We all need healing, and we need it from each other. We've done enough 'bucking up' over the last few years to last a generation. If we're not 'ganging up', or gay, or struggling just to get by, or working all the time, or juggling credit, or addicted to sex, or hooked on pain killers, or gulping down prescription 'attitude adjustments', or eating too much, or just enjoying being mean 'cause it helps us forget...

...then we're probably aware of how sad this situation really is.

When we stop believing in intolerance, and start trusting ourselves and one another to really give it our best shot at seeing the good in the people around us... I think it's called 'Love', BTW... all this 'addictive behavior' that seems meaningful, but isn't, will start to subside.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 04:06 AM

Can somebody explain to me how some gay couple is going to ruin the sanctity of my marrige if they get married? Never could figure that one out.

And as for tolerance and endorsement: My neighbors have ten vehicles in their yard. So do my other neighbors. I tolerate it, but I sure as hell don't endorse it. That being the case, I think the premise of the original question is absurd.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: PMB
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 04:23 AM

I think the answer that he wants is that homosexuality should be compulsory, but only for the caretaker. Never seen such a case of repression.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 09:48 AM

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 05:49 PM

Bee-dubya-ell -
If the government tolerates all the things that you say you do, it effectively endorses and legitimatizes them.

The government tolerates people flying Confederate battle flags in their own front yards. To ban them would be a violation of free speech. But the government has banned flying Confederate battle flags in most public places. To allow that would amount to giving free speech to those who regard the flag as a positive symbol at the expense of those who regard it negatively.

So, I don't see how one could say that government tolerance of the private display of rebel flags constitutes endorsement when public display is banned. I'd say there's a pretty clear line drawn between tolerance and endorsement in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Alice
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 10:28 AM

Guest Caretaker, by now I hope you see that some responses, like mine,
are trying to point out that you are not communicating your question clearly.
As Dave said, "Morality is not a When".

I do see that with your bias you are trying to make a point about people
tolerating behavior and giving that behavior endorsement with their tolerance.

I think it is helpful to look at the definitions of tolerance and endorsement.
One Webster's definition of tolerance is "the amount of variation allowed from
a standard". To endorse is "to sanction, approve or support".
I think the key difference is between allowing and approving. Americans allow
the Ku Klux Klan to march (tolerate), but most Americans do not approve of the
Ku Klux Klan (endorse).

Tolerance and endorsement are two different actions or attitudes.
One does not become the other. A person can have tolerance of something
and not endorse it. The way the word tolerate is usually used, to tolerate
implies that you are allowing but not endorsing.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 02:16 PM

Alice, I agree with you.

i think where some are coming from is a bit like Mr. Shrub in reverse, i.e. if you're not against us, we'll take that as approval.

Joe, isn't the argument, that gay marriages undermine the 'conventional families are the bedrock of democracy' view, by making that view a choice rather than fundamental?

homosexuality is said to be anti-Biblical if nothing else, but then I never seem to hear the pro-life lobby objecting to wars on the same 'life-is-sacred' grounds.

There's an awful lot of cherry-picking involved.





       Ivor






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: autolycus
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:28 PM

Good. Another problem solved. :-)





       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:45 PM

To turn the original question on its head, when does "not endorsing" become "intolerance"?

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

   - Edmund Burke (1729-1797)attrib.

I suspect he would be on the side of gay marriage, too.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: folk1e
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 06:45 PM

Isn't an endorsement something you get on your driving liscence?

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: autolycus
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 01:49 AM

And something airhead celebrities give to products for airheads.


(Or do celebrities give endorsements to symphony orchestras without telling me.




      Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 04:11 AM

I have a tolerance for alcohol. I can drink quite a bit before it finishes me off.
Give me a paid contract and I'll endorse it as well.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 08:18 AM

come on guys, this is a null question. It's just a minor variation on the age-old politician's distinction between liberty (good, a freedom I approve of) and license (bad, a freedom I disapprove of)

nick

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 11:57 AM

I'm with Alice, on this one, Caretaker--your big problem is that you can't, or won't express yourself clearly.

You started this thread with a question that was so vague that it was meaningless, and you didn't even know it. Because you weren't clear, others have used the opening you created to characterize your point of view--and they haven't been very kind--

The picture of you that comes out here is that you are a gay-basher, a fundamentalist religious extremist, a Ku Klux Klan member, a warmonger, a Nazi, a person who believes that epilepsy is demonic possesion, and by extension, a person who believes that handicapped and and disabled children should be exterminated.

I don't know you, and so I can't say for sure, but I think that some, if not most, of these are not true. But you brought it on yourself, because you didn't take the time to express your ideas clearly--

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: PMB
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:03 PM

Ted, you forgot to say that his s**t stinks...

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: autolycus
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 02:45 PM

MTed, maybe he's learnt stuff.




    Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 06:58 PM

Tolerance of chimps in bars is becoming quite common now, fortunately. It's about time they were treated in a fair and equal fashion. Endorsement, however, only occurs when you buy the chimp a drink.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Slag
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 05:00 AM

The vagueness of the original statement aside and the injection of homosexuality not withstanding, define your terms! In order to be tolerant of others there is a presupposition that you hold certain views which are not shared by all. That is to say that in order to be tolerant you must first believe in something. Then there are those who mistake tolerance for acceptance or even endorsement. These folks tend to fatuous or down right foolish. Or Nazis.

When tolerance becomes an issue it causes a certain tense sort of close attention to be paid to whatever the situation my be. This is different from issues of civility (you might check out the discussion on that thread!).

As in mechanics, tolerance means that there is a line, an edge beyond which the thing will not work. Society and machines have to have some play built into them or it will grind to a halt or fly apart.

If a show of tolerance is not backed by courage and the wherewithal to act then it is NOT tolerance but but a wishful delusion. This is what happened to the Jews in Hitler's Germany. They ran out of cheeks to turn.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 11:31 PM

The Evangelical movement endorses an author (he who shall not be named) who was formerly a judge.
His argument is that tolerence is EVIL and must be desroyed at all cost. Tolerence is the enemy that allows the perversion of diversity to corrode the American fabric of society, morality and family values.

He is no longer a judge.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Slag
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:09 AM

Just as "Move On. Org" is not the Democratic Party, this Yahoo is not Evangelic Christianity so put your broad brush away. Stereotyping is ugly business regardless of which side is doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:54 AM

Amen!

maeve, with a big grin...

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: nutty
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:42 AM

Sometimes tolerance does become endorsement when a long held norm is slowly eroded.

At one time pornography in all its forms was abhorred by the majority.

Be tolerant, people were told. There are people that enjoy it. As long as they are adult and view it in private it isn't harmful.

So we were tolerant.

Next it started to appear in the cinema

Be tolerant we were told. There are people that enjoy it. As long as they are over 18 or adults it isn't harmful.

So we were tolerant

Then they invented cable TV - it came into every home and with it came the pornography.

But its only soft porn we were told. as long as parents control what their children are viewing it isn't harmful.

So we were tolerant

Then children started to get TV's in their bedrooms so the watershed meant nothing and the late night programs (intended for adults ) were available to all and our children are nightly exposed to things that I didn't know about until I was an adult.

I have been tolerant to the point that, by not voicing my concerns, I have endorsed something that worries me greatly.

Subject: RE: BS: When does tolerance become endorsement?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 09:46 AM

THe Caretaker askied, "For the Liberal throngs here, is morality the correct answer? Or the lack of it? "

This is a loaded question implying that tolerance itself is not a high moral virtue.

Tolerance is never endorsement. Caretasker is actually addressing the age-old problem of the sin of omission -- the failure to do something which would if done improve a situation.

There are very distinct lines at which tolerating some aberration in others becomes an unethical thing to do, it seems to me, and they are not fixed in concrete terms. They are situation, and depend on the balance of the forces and motions in play at a given moment. The failure to jump into a creek and save a child is a "moral failure" to the degree the individual sees it as one, and most folks will suffer from such an omission. The failure to interfere with other people's sex lives or hemp use, choice of movies, choice of partners, or free exercise of communicsation is, contrariwise, not.

A