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Tunes collected by Sharp

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Les in Chorlton 02 Sep 07 - 07:01 AM
treewind 02 Sep 07 - 10:49 AM
Folkiedave 02 Sep 07 - 11:07 AM
Les in Chorlton 02 Sep 07 - 11:11 AM
The Borchester Echo 02 Sep 07 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,doc.tom 02 Sep 07 - 03:08 PM
The Borchester Echo 02 Sep 07 - 03:25 PM
Les in Chorlton 04 Sep 07 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,doc.tom 04 Sep 07 - 06:45 AM
Les in Chorlton 04 Sep 07 - 07:04 AM
mattkeen 04 Sep 07 - 07:25 AM
Les in Chorlton 04 Sep 07 - 07:27 AM
PMB 04 Sep 07 - 07:28 AM
mattkeen 04 Sep 07 - 07:33 AM
mattkeen 04 Sep 07 - 07:36 AM
Les in Chorlton 04 Sep 07 - 08:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Sep 07 - 08:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Sep 07 - 08:57 PM
Malcolm Douglas 04 Sep 07 - 09:24 PM
masato sakurai 05 Sep 07 - 12:18 AM
masato sakurai 05 Sep 07 - 02:13 AM
Les in Chorlton 05 Sep 07 - 03:48 AM
Folkiedave 05 Sep 07 - 04:26 AM
Les in Chorlton 05 Sep 07 - 10:18 AM
Folkiedave 05 Sep 07 - 12:20 PM
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Subject: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:01 AM

Quite a lot is known about where Cecil Sharp got his songs and morris dances, from but where did he get the country dance tunes from?

Did he collect them "in the field" from people who played for social dance or did he get many of them from books?


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: treewind
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:49 AM

There wouldn't have been much point in collecting them from books. He got the Radstock Jig from a fiddle player in the workhouse at Shepton Mallet, and I'd guess that was typical of his tunes sources, like the songs.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:07 AM

A lot about it here.......


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:11 AM

Thanks Dave


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:39 AM

It's all very well to say that ole Cec collected tunes in the time-honoured way from old blokes in workhouses (and what Anahata said about The Radstock Jig is absolutely true to the best of my knowledge), but it is nevertheless the case that vast quantities in The English Country Dance Book referred to by Dave (and to which I had already drawn the OP's attention to in the Folk Handbook thread) came from John Playford's 1651 English Dancing Master.

And the funniest thing about this publication was that it was a send-up because there were no 'English' dancing masters. They were all French. And the tunes were from everywhere, just have a look. All of which is as it should be. Tunes and dances have been incorporated into 'the English tradition' since time immemorial and it still happens. Possibly the most 'English' dance tunes today are the Dr Who theme and Blackadder. And the next will be whatever Glorystrokes are working on.


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 03:08 PM

Bit sweeping, Diane, to say there were no English dancing masters - even if you are only talking about E.D.M. - and remember there were eighteen successive editions between 1651 and 1728, not to mention all the other books of 'Country Dance' written and published in England. I will also cite Trevor Stone's research on Yorkshire travelling Dancing Masters of the nineteenth Century.

The first few dances (& tunes)in C#'s ECDB were collected from an ongoing tradition at Blue Anchor, near Minehead at the other end of our moor - that was before he subsequently discovered the Playford series and comitted himself to working on them - 'vast quantities' presumably refers to the few that came from the 1651 edition.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 03:25 PM

Not sweeping.
I'm referring to the mid C17 when it was reality.
(Or so I'm led to believe).
I wasn't there, obviously.

Of course things were different two centuries later when there were lots of travelling dancing masters.
Like my great-grandfather.


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:49 AM

So, it's looking like Sharp got many of his tunes from written sources?

Is this the heritage of English Country dance music?


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:45 AM

Not too fast! Sharp was not the only collector and he died in 1924. There's a vast repertoire out there that came from 'traditional' sources that are nothing to do with Sharp. Yes, he collected many 'trad' musicians ~ both morris and country dance: as far as English Country Dance Books and what is generically called 'Playford' is concerned, yes a great many dances and tunes came from the Dancing Master series.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:04 AM

"Yes, he collected many 'trad' musicians ~ both morris and country dance:"

Am I correct in thinking that his collection of Morris tunes and dances is well documented?

What seems much less clear is how many social dance tunes or dances did he collect from people as opposed from books.


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: mattkeen
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:25 AM

My favourite Morris book (dances and tunes) is the Lionel Bacon "Black Book".

This is Cotswold stuff and many of the tunes are amazingly beautiful.


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:27 AM

............ and all collected "in the field" so to speak?


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: PMB
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:28 AM

Is it true that he considered social dance as greatly inferior to ritual dance, and gave it attention accordingly? That's the allegation in The Imagined Village, along with the assertion that once he discovered Playford, he took it to be the authoritative source, with field- collected versions as 'corruptions'.


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: mattkeen
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:33 AM

Regarding Lionel Bacon
I am not an expert but this is a lot of information about Lionel Bacon and how he originally developed the book as a sort of "aide memoir" and certainly seems to have authentic credentials (whatever they are).

It was recommended to me from a musical point of view by Chris Wood, and that is always good enough for me.


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: mattkeen
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:36 AM

http://www.themorrisring.org/more/Tunes/index.html


http://www.winchester-morris-men.org.uk/lionel_bacon.htm

Above are links to info about Lionel and the Black Book


Hope this is of interest to you


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 08:02 AM

Thanks Mattkeen,

I have been around the origins of Morris a bit. i think we are all aware of the mythologising, if that is not too strong a word, but it does seem clear that Sharp collected lots of tunes.

I love songs and social dance but it terms of who had the songs and kept them alive the rural working people certainly did us all a massive favour. As for social dance it looks more like printed sources could have been a much more important feature?


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 08:56 PM

Out of interest I once heard that Mr S and various other collectors travelled to the US of A - To the Appalacians to be specific - because the stuff they were collecting here in the UK had become 'modernised' and subject to the great upheavals of the industrial revolution. Way out in the Appalacian sticks the tunes were considered to be more 'original' than their English counterparts!

Dunno if it is fully true but it is a good tale all the same:-)

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 08:57 PM

Oh - and the tunes on Sharpe are very good as well. But John Tams has a hand in them so they would be;-)


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:24 PM

Printed collections of dance tunes (a great many were published over several centuries) were an important source for a lot of vernacular musicians as well; nothing new in that. Musical literacy was actually more common in the 18th and 19th centuries than it is now. See the Village Music Project for MS tunebooks kept by a lot of musicians of that period; these were a mix of tunes noted by ear and copied from print.

Sharp did note some dance tunes in Appalachia, but he was mostly there for the songs and didn't have a lot of time; so he concentrated on the latter. So far as the dance tunes he published are concerned, my memory is that he said which tunes were taken from print and which from tradition; all you have to do is look at the books, which are not hard to get.


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: masato sakurai
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 12:18 AM

Links to Sharp's Morris Books:

The Morris Book, Part 1: A History of Morris Dancing, With a Description of Eleven Dances as Performed by the Morris-Men of England [e-text] See esp. comments to each tune under "Morris Dance Tunes".

The Morris book : with a description of dances as performed by the Morris men of England, part 2

The Morris book : with a description of dances as performed by the Morris Men of England, part 4

The Morris book : with a description of dances as performed by the Morris men of England, part 4

The Morris book : with a description of dances as performed by the Morris men of England, part 5

The Morris book : with a description of dances as performed by the Morris Men of England, part 5 [not vol. 3 as is stated]


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: masato sakurai
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:13 AM

Other dance books by Sharp:

The country dance book, part 3 (1909-) ("containing 35 country dances from The English Dancing Master (1650-1670)")

The English country dance, graded series. Containing the description of the dances together with the tunes by Cecil J. Sharp (Volume 1) ([192-])


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:48 AM

Thanks Malcolm,

"So far as the dance tunes he published are concerned, my memory is that he said which tunes were taken from print and which from tradition; all you have to do is look at the books, which are not hard to get."

This sounds like a hot lead, which books actually give this detail about origins of tunes?

Cheers

Les


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:26 AM

At this point a well-known purveyor of second-hand folk books offers his services.

(Though I think I don't have any copies of Sharp's Country Dance Music at the moment - they were sold as a set - both the originals and the repros).

As far as others were concerned I recently sold a book by a man called Thos. Wilson - the last of the dancing masters, who went off the scene around 1830. There were in fact two books one with a large number of tunes but if anyone wants to see what this sort of thing looks like, then it is on the web. This is the Library of Congress copy - and is the book of instructions so there are no tunes. You might find it interesting to start at page 185 but the whole thing is both amusing and informative.

RVWML have copies of the book with the tunes in, and the book purchaser kindly allowed his copy to be digitised by the Village Music Project which Malcolm mentioned earlier so there are copies there.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=171//musdi171.db&recNum=6&itemLink=r%3Fammem%2Fmusdibib%3A%40field%28


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 10:18 AM

Ace Dave!

\Les


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Subject: RE: Tunes collected by Sharp
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 12:20 PM

And I have checked my stock and there are no copies of Sharp's Country Dance books. Sorry.

I have a lovely copy of the Sheet Music Book for the tunes to "Midsummer Night's Dream" composed by Sharp, signed by him and dedicated to "Maudie" (!!) It comes with the acting edition of the play signed by Granville Barker who produced the version that Sharp wrote the music for.

But if you have to ask the price for both items sold together then you probably can't afford them.

But PM me if you have just won the lottery.

Dave


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